Would you contribute €2 per week to solve homelessness?

Beta Ray Bill

Tsipras wrote: »

That's a load of bollocks, mental health problems lead people to drugs not the other way around, and it is a major cause of homelessness. In the US over 10% of homeless people are military vets, nearly all with PTSD .
Having mental Illness isn't someone's fault.

7.3% of American are serving or have served in the Military so the 10% marker isn't really that high given so many people have served.

Yes I agree with you, I said "exasperated".
When a person with Mental health issues ends up with a a drink/drug problem it is very severe. (far more so than it would be for a person without mental health issues)

Sue Pa Key Pa

Lads would cost more to administer the collection of the money than it would take in

the_syco

Will it be like PRSI, whereby just those who work pay for it, or like Irish Water whereby everyone pays for it, but those who don't usually pay for anything come out and strike against it as they actually have to pay?

djPSB

Some interesting points raised.

The poll tells that 60% of respondents would not be willing to pay €2 per week. A small sample size obviously.

An indication of the public view on homelessness all the same.

topper75

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes if it was a simply as proving a house/property, bu its not.

Sssshhh! you can't say that.
You'll end up a pariah like that Gleeson one did.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mrs OBumble

grahambo wrote: »

All the babies are born the same, I remember seeing them all in the Hospital when my son was born.
At that point in their life they are all equal.
It's only the people that take them out of the hospital that determine what kind of life they are going to have.

Actually, not they aren't.

Pre-birth maternal nutrition, exposure to alcohol and other drugs, limited blood-oxygen due to maternal smoking, and plain genetics (for some mental illnesses, at least the risk of the disease is inherited) all mean that by the time they reach birth, some babies are all ready wayyy behind others in terms of advantages.



There are two very different types of homeless people in Ireland.

The traditional group have mental health issues. Some actually have diagnosable mental illnesses, while others are psychological difficulties or extreme low intelligence. Whatever the cause, these folks cannot function in regular society without huge amounts of support - and some not at all. No amount of money will remove this group totally, all your €2 will do for them is provide more services to keep them out of the public eye.

The second group, currently larger, is people who cannot find homes due to the country not having build enough of them in places where they are needed, at prices which are affordable. This we could fix, not overnight or next week or even next month. I would happily ring-fence €2 of my taxes for additional housing - though I'd be happier if this wasn't social housing, because of the inter-generational dependency that causes.

knowledge88888

No

knowledge88888

I dont share. Others problems are there own. Im selfish. But when im down nobody helps me. I take i dont give

Colonel Claptrap

Show me a country - anywhere in the world, or any time in history - which has "solved homlessness".

I already contribute a lot more than €2 per week providing social safety nets, keeping people fed, sheltered and off the street.

Mooooo

Pointless question when it won't fix the problem

Dravokivich

djPSB wrote: »

Some interesting points raised.

The poll tells that 60% of respondents would not be willing to pay €2 per week. A small sample size obviously.

An indication of the public view on homelessness all the same.

What are you getting at? The poll says nothing about the comments in the thread.

corner of hells

Tsipras wrote: »

grahambo wrote: »

In terms of mental illness, yes that is a factor too, but it is heavily exasperated by alcohol and substance abuse.

That's a load of bollocks, mental health problems lead people to drugs not the other way around, and it is a major cause of homelessness. In the US over 10% of homeless people are military vets, nearly all with PTSD .
Having mental Illness isn't someone's fault.

Drug induced psychosis?

djPSB

Dravokivich wrote: »

What are you getting at? The poll says nothing about the comments in the thread.

The poll says 60% wouldn't contribute €2 per week to solve the issue.

There is a media driven public outcry about the homeless situation at the minute. But it's interesting to see how close an issue it is to people's hearts when they are asked to pay €2 per week to solve it.

Btw I wouldn't pay it myself.

Agreed the government's approach to the issue is abysmal but you do wonder if putting families up in hotels is going beyond the call of duty also.

Dravokivich

djPSB wrote: »

The poll says 60% wouldn't contribute €2 per week to solve the issue.

There is a media driven public outcry about the homeless situation at the minute. But it's interesting to see how close an issue it is to people's hearts when they are asked to pay €2 per week to solve it.

Btw I wouldn't pay it myself.

Agreed the government's approach to the issue is abysmal but you do wonder if putting families up in hotels is going beyond the call of duty also.

But everyone is saying 2 euro a week won't do it. People should not commit to something because it sounds like the right thing to do, when we know it's not going to acheve anything.

Roger_007

Maybe if the money being given to the homeless charities was given directly to the homeless, it might solve the problem. The Fr McVerry Trust, Focus and Dublin Simon are employing about 1000 full-time staff between them on an average wage of 38k per annum, (mostly public grant money). There are approximately 70 other charities involved with the homeless.
I have no idea what they are all doing but I predict that the next stage of the crisis will be that there will not be enough homeless people to be divided up amongst the charities. We will have to import homeless people to make up the numbers.
No wonder the Apollo house crowd scarpered. They realised the 'market' was too crowded. Homeless charities are now one of the biggest businesses in Dublin.

kona

haha i would in my ****, while charity ceo make x2 what im on.

_Kaiser_

Yes.. through taxation, and so long as the money was ACTUALLY being used to address the problem (and not just going into the free-for-all general tax pot, or "ring-fenced - but not really!")

Permabear

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MilesMorales1

So does this hypothetical 2 quid a week just buy homeless people a house, or does it significantly improve the facilities and resources available to save homeless people from their own self destruction?

corner of hells

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

These four charities received €33.6 million in grants from the state, but spent €35.8 million on staff costs.

Not one penny of that money granted by the state went directly to the homeless. All of it and more went into the pockets of charity staff.

The charities spend this money mostly on expanding and enriching themselves.

It's clear that actually eradicating homelessness would put an end to a lot of cushy jobs. So the charities have an interest in bleating loudly about the need for ever greater funding, but also an interest in perpetuating the problem rather than solving it.[/quote]

I wonder how'd you eradicate homelessness.

MilesMorales1

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I was sort of aware of this, but seeing the numbers is ****ing shocking.

Galwayguy35

No.

The government already takes enough of my taxes to help "the most vunerable in our society" who contribute nothing to the running of the country.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

gozunda

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Actually, not they aren't.

Pre-birth maternal nutrition, exposure to alcohol and other drugs, limited blood-oxygen due to maternal smoking, and plain genetics (for some mental illnesses, at least the risk of the disease is inherited) all mean that by the time they reach birth, some babies are all ready wayyy behind others in terms of advantages.



There are two very different types of homeless people in Ireland.

The traditional group have mental health issues. Some actually have diagnosable mental illnesses, while others are psychological difficulties or extreme low intelligence. Whatever the cause, these folks cannot function in regular society without huge amounts of support - and some not at all. No amount of money will remove this group totally, all your €2 will do for them is provide more services to keep them out of the public eye.

The second group, currently larger, is people who cannot find homes due to the country not having build enough of them in places where they are needed, at prices which are affordable. This we could fix, not overnight or next week or even next month. I would happily ring-fence €2 of my taxes for additional housing - though I'd be happier if this wasn't social housing, because of the inter-generational dependency that causes.

What bolloxology is that. People are generally not at fault for mental health issues than they are for any other illness. As to the second comment- I am seriously concerned as to where that one could go ...

djPSB

You would wonder though, and obviously this again will never happen, but supposing we are all paying the €2 per week and then homelessness was solved in that very few were homeless anymore. Would people then not say, well fook them 'why should we have to pay €2 per week to put a roof over someone else's head'.

corner of hells

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think it's possible to eradicate homelessness. Even in societies that the left drools over because of the size of the state sector, homelessness is an issue. In Sweden, at last count, there were 34,000 people homeless. In Denmark, there were 10,000 to 15,000 homeless.[/quote]

It isn't and unfortunately in Ireland the state relies heavily on charities to support homeless services, I'd imagine because it would cost more to employ social care staff, counsellors, drug service staff and so on through the HSE.
The origin of a lot of services like MQI, Capuchins etc was voluntary but when they have to employ professionals you got pay to them.
A few posts back a figure of 38000 was mentioned as a salary , I'm a front line homeless service worker and don't earn that.
Maybe it's an average.

It's good to have dialogue and accountability but having an awareness of what charities particularly front line ones are is important too.
I'll give an example ,MQI provides needle exchanges as part of their primary health care team alongside mental health /general nurse and doctors as well as dentists simply because no one else would originally.

Arghus

Great to see so many people didn't read the OP's post. About a hypothetical solution that would be guaranteed to work. He was just posing a hypothetical question, but sure let the half-baked rants continue.

corner of hells

Arghus wrote: »

Great to see so many people didn't read the OP's post. About a hypothetical solution that would be guaranteed to work. He was just posing a hypothetical question, but sure let the half-baked rants continue.

'
Sure that's nearly every AH thread.

Prune Tracy

grahambo wrote: »

I keep hearing about "The Homeless" problem

In my eyes the only people that can help the homeless are themselves.

There are 3 kinds of homeless people
1: Young women in their 20's with kids and the father "isn't around"
2: People with serious drink/drug problems
3: People who have genuinely lost everything througha series of bad events <= These are the vast minority

There is no helping 1 and 2, and they are the vast majority.

I saw on RTE news earlier in the week some woman living in a hotel for the last few years with 4 kids, the youngest of which was only a couple of months old, finally got a house off the council.

WTF was she doing having another kid when she already had 3 and was living in the hotel?
Her eldest child (7 or 8 years old maybe) had to be put up in a separate room because for insurance reasons the hotel can't have more than 4 people in a room.

No sign of the Dad (Dad's)

I know a Homeless guy in Raheny, He lives in St Annes park. His family don't want anything to do with him as he a terrible alcoholic.
He needs to sort himself out before anything can be done to sort him out with accommodation.

There is a reason as to why people are homeless, and generally the reason is because they have serious antisocial/substance abuse/addiction issues.
No amount of money will be able to help them.
There's no helping someone that won't help themselves.

I know the above is harsh, but it's very true.

I agree with a lot there but there is also the group now that simply cannot afford private rent in Dublin. And I dislike when people say "well move so!" It's the capital city - with the most job opportunities. It shouldn't be at the stage in the first place where people have no option but to move away from it to some depressing village in Laois.

gozunda

Arghus wrote: »

Great to see so many people didn't read the OP's post. About a hypothetical solution that would be guaranteed to work. He was just posing a hypothetical question, but sure let the half-baked rants continue.

I asked the OP to define what they meant by the term "homelessness" a while back. Thread went feral for lack of clarity imo.

lightspeed

As others have pointed out we are already paying for them through general taxation.

What irks me is the fact that the so called "emergency accommodation" is a hotel in many cases.

The term "emergency accommodation" conjures up the image of a tent in Haiti or like post Hurricane Catriona.

For the money the government is paying on hotels in Dublin they could just buy up the houses elsewhere in the country further outside Dublin, throw them the keys and say **** off or sleep on the street.

Of course in this new age of political correctness, if people want to live in Dublin or Cork etc and cant afford to its an epidemic.

Can anyone tell me would it be the same if you went to the capital city in other developed parts of the world?

If I went to London and said I cant afford a place to live in London, would the British government put me up in a hotel until they found me a home in London?

New York, Barcelona, Rome, Paris ect. Would that happen in any of these cities?

lmimmfn

lightspeed wrote: »

As others have pointed out we are already paying for them through general taxation.

What irks me is the fact that the so called "emergency accommodation" is a hotel in many cases.

The term "emergency accommodation" conjures up the image of a tent in Haiti or like post Hurricane Catriona.

For the money the government is paying on hotels in Dublin they could just buy up the houses elsewhere in the country further outside Dublin, throw them the keys and say **** off or sleep on the street.

Of course in this new age of political correctness, if people want to live in Dublin or Cork etc and cant afford to its an epidemic.

Can anyone tell me would it be the same if you went to the capital city in other developed parts of the world?

If I went to London and said I cant afford a place to live in London, would the British government put me up in a hotel until they found me a home in London?

New York, Barcelona, Rome, Paris ect. Would that happen in any of these cities?

But don't they deserve free houses in Dublin instead of in the country?

Tigger

its acuallybthe opposite
if you move all the wont work dubs to the country then you loose our vote
whichbis stupid cos those people have loads of money to spend and would add to our local evonomy
iv been canvasing for poeple to move tonthe lovley empty estates in leitrim
and sligo for years

lightspeed

Prune Tracy wrote: »

I agree with a lot there but there is also the group now that simply cannot afford private rent in Dublin. And I dislike when people say "well move so!" It's the capital city - with the most job opportunities. It shouldn't be at the stage in the first place where people have no option but to move away from it to some depressing village in Laois.

Yes it should be as thats a natural process as an economy grows. If more people are forced to moved out further from Dublin, there will then be demand for services in these areas. That will create more jobs in these areas and then less need for so many people to scramble towards city centre.

Christ we are in the EU where like it or not, there will continue to be plenty of people from Eastern Europe as well as elsewhere coming here looking for work. Consider that along with the reality that people are living longer and our high birth rates, there is not a hope that this is a problem that can be solved ever by supply.

Demand is going to continue to massively exceed supply in Dublin just like it does in London.

I read an article this morning about how Ireland is hoping to gain as much as 15,000 new financial services jobs to Dublin as a result of Brexit. That may be optimistic on the jobs front, but anyone who thinks they shouldnt have to move outside of Dublin if they cant afford a house at present is delusional if they think its going to get better.

Its like saying I shouldnt have to get wet even though its raining.

CPTM

When you have 100 people and only 60 houses, the richest 60 people will always get the houses, and the rest will be homeless.. It doesn't matter how much money you give the 40, be it 2 euro, or 200 euro.. The homeless people will just turn up at one of the viewings of the 60 houses, along with everyone else, and the landlords will just raise the prices up until the top 60 people have been identified again. Until we build enough places for everyone to live in, subsidies do nothing but increase income for landlords, or increase corruption and back-handers (If there are ceiling rent prices and/or rent control).

myshirt

Of course everyone would give 2 euro if it was as simple as that. Of course, it's not.

Ask a harder question.

Like would people support CAT thresholds dropping, CAT rates rising, PPR relief going, and that money being ringfenced to tackle socioeconomic disadvantage. Remember it's been working the other way for a long, long time. Direct government intervention to benefit one class. This is all unearned wealth perpetuating inequality.

lightspeed

lmimmfn wrote: »

But don't they deserve free houses in Dublin instead of in the country?

Im genuinely not sure if you are being sarcastic or not.

No they dont. I dont actually think they should be given houses for free either. Im just making the point why to we live and die by the Dunnes stores motto of "the difference is were Irish". We all understand that people who cant afford to live in say London for example have to accept that they must move further away and commute.

The idea of Irish people having to do the same in Ireland is a subject of outrage for some reason. Maybe its because we have not had to adjust this new reality and the easily lending during the boom helped people live in this warm fuzzy bubble.

Prune Tracy

lightspeed wrote: »

Im genuinely not sure if you are being sarcastic or not.

No they dont. I dont actually think they should be given houses for free either. Im just making the point why to we live and die by the Dunnes stores motto of "the difference is were Irish". We all understand that people who cant afford to live in say London for example have to accept that they must move further away and commute.

The idea of Irish people having to do the same in Ireland is a subject of outrage for some reason. Maybe its because we have not had to adjust this new reality and the easily lending during the boom helped people live in this warm fuzzy bubble.

I've read numerous pieces on people in London and San Francisco objecting to the cost of accommodation/property. Things that get the "typical Irish" treatment are often to be found anywhere.

I've no doubt that that person was just being ironic and I agree that a person who opts for being entirely provided for by the state (not people who end up in that situation through misfortune and no fault of their own, but people who actually choose it) and insists that they be put up for free in a hotel until the right place in one specific area comes up/turns down local authority accommodation because of a ridiculous reason have a sense of entitlement gone crazy, but when it's so expensive that people in secure, well paying employment literally cannot afford to pay for accommodation, it's too extreme.

Roger_007

Is this essentially a Dublin problem? I don't live in Dublin but I live within 30km of it. There are 12 perfectly decent houses for sale in the €150k-200k range within 5km of where I live, (I checked on Daft). By any measure, these houses are in the affordable range.
Why does everyone want to live in Dublin? That's what's causing most of the problem.

Prune Tracy

Roger_007 wrote: »

Is this essentially a Dublin problem? I don't live in Dublin but I live within 30km of it. There are 12 perfectly decent houses for sale in the €150k-200k range within 5km of where I live, (I checked on Daft). By any measure, these houses are in the affordable range.
Why does everyone want to live in Dublin? That's what's causing most of the problem.

Not everyone does but most do because that's where most job opportunities and colleges are, and over a third of the entire country's population are from Dublin and its environs so I guess they want to stay around. I don't agree with this being seen as a negative if the person is trained and working and contributing.

For sure, some will just have to suck it up and move, but it shouldn't have to be that way.

lightspeed

Prune Tracy wrote: »

But when it's so expensive that people in secure, well paying employment literally cannot afford to pay for accommodation, it's too extreme.

No it not as those people can just move further outside the capital were they can afford to live, so problem solved.

I live in balbriggan and commute across the M50 everyday to Bray. It takes me 1 hour 30 minutes or more sometimes to commute to an from work by car. It has taken 2 hours sometimes to get home.

All of my friends who live closer to city centre think Balbriggan is way out in the sticks. Its about 45 mins to city centre by train and 20 minute drive to the airport. Property values are more affordable here yet there are plenty of people who want to live closer to city centre and would not take a house in the likes of Balbriggan or Drogheda.

I visited hong kong a few months ago and from what I learned it was common for people to travel up to 2 hours or more via the metro to commute to and from work.

Similar can be seen when you look at London and some other parts of the UK.

As cities develop, jobs and demand increases and people have to move out and commute further as prices increases. This is not a phenomenon, its just something natural that happens all across the developed world.

Attitudes are going to have to change and people need to be told bluntly move to where you can afford to live. If that means outside of city centre, tough.

There was the exact same boom/bust property bubble/burst in the UK. Why is it that there is little to nothing in uk media on the same scale as here regarding the homelessness crisis?

Maybe they dont have so many in "emergency accommodation"/hotels because we are the only country stupid enough to put people up in hotels for free?

So people just have to move to where they can afford and the they dont bother to refer to that as a national crisis.

lightspeed

Prune Tracy wrote: »

Not everyone does but most do because that's where most job opportunities and colleges are, and over a third of the entire country's population are from Dublin and its environs so I guess they want to stay around. I don't agree with this being seen as a negative if the person is trained and working and contributing.

For sure, some will just have to suck it up and move, but it shouldn't have to be that way.

Why not?

Prune Tracy

lightspeed wrote: »

Why not?

I don't think it should be impossible for people to be able to do something as mundane as live in a particular place if they are working and constantly upskilling. It's just a city - not Mars.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dxhound2005

I am going to send £2 a week to the (non) government in Northern Ireland. Things are even worse there with 16,000 homeless out of a smaller population than us. I listen to Radio Ulster every day and watch the local news on BBC NI TV. I never heard any mention of what should be a national emergency there, never mind a crisis. If we had that many homeless in this country RTE would have to set up a separate homeless radio station.

We are blessed with such caring journalists and politicians who devote so much time and effort to the homeless. In the North they only want to talk about flags and language and they ignore the homeless.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-has-threeyear-housing-waiting-list-and-926-empty-housing-executive-homes-36144367.html

lightspeed

Prune Tracy wrote: »

I don't think it should be impossible for people to be able to do something as mundane as live in a particular place if they are working and constantly upskilling. It's just a city - not Mars.

Yes that is the problem right there. What you feel is mundane is normal in many other parts of the world. So we need to stop pretending we need to treat a problem that does not exist.

Yes you can say people dont like the prices they are paying in London but there is not an attitude or false narrative that they have this homelessness crisis that must be solved now.

They know its not a temporary crisis but a constant side effect of a large economy. Hence why it would be viewed as ludicrus for the British government to pay for people to stay in hotels who cant afford a home in London. Hence why this is not happening.

lightspeed

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That would be a step in the right direction but I cant see why companies would not not just invest in moving more operations outside of Dublin ?

Remote working wont be possible in all office based jobs.

A friend of mine works for HR for one of the large fund accounting services company. A lot of their hiring for some roles is outsourced to India who firstly call people to do a phone interview.

She told me that the guys in India sometimes call people in Dublin and cant understand why they wont commute to work in their Wexford office. They find this surprising as its normal for people to travel similar distances to work in London based office.

the_pen_turner

of course not,
its not that easy


my biggest problem is that most of thehomeess are not doing anything to get them selves back right.
its harder with kids ect but single or 2 people could easily get back right if they put some effort in.

move down the country. find an old abandoned house
move in
befriend a few local farmers or builders etc
get a small bit of labour work off them in lew of a bit of food and few bob.
scavenge pallets and timber from co ops and farmers to heat you house.

if you were a good honest trustworthy person you wouldn't cause any problems. no body would mind.
they would even help you out by dropping in things that could help you out .

its all about helping yourself.


what annoys me is that on the news its all about homeless living in cardboard boxes. what's that about, get a few pallets and a sheet of plastic , make a water tight shelter fairly easily. you would be amazed what you would find in a skip.
if you were smart enough you would build a decent little shelter

lightspeed

the_pen_turner wrote: »

of course not,
its not that easy


my biggest problem is that most of thehomeess are not doing anything to get them selves back right.
its harder with kids ect but single or 2 people could easily get back right if they put some effort in.

move down the country. find an old abandoned house
move in
befriend a few local farmers or builders etc
get a small bit of labour work off them in lew of a bit of food and few bob.
scavenge pallets and timber from co ops and farmers to heat you house.

if you were a good honest trustworthy person you wouldn't cause any problems. no body would mind.
they would even help you out by dropping in things that could help you out .

its all about helping yourself.


what annoys me is that on the news its all about homeless living in cardboard boxes. what's that about, get a few pallets and a sheet of plastic , make a water tight shelter fairly easily. you would be amazed what you would find in a skip.
if you were smart enough you would build a decent little shelter

This morning i heard on newstalk someone texted in saying they were 24 years old, just lost their job and had to pay rent of €540 which does not include internet. The dole is near €200 a week and room to rent can be got for €300-€400 outside most parts of Dublin if you look hard enough.

Im living with my parents at the moment and im a single male aged 30. Id like to move out soon but still saving for now. I might be better off staying were I am for now as there are challenges to finding a place to rent but of course not impossible.

I did email some explaining that ive not moved outside the family home before so im not able to provide a landlord reference. I explained I could provide an employment reference and mentioned that im working as an accountant. Ive not got any response back to my emails.

I came across one advert on daft for a bed in a room to share which had "vegetarians only" among the list of requirements.

So there are challenges to renting beyond just having the capital but its certainly not impossible and I think its being blowing out of proportion.

I think its just that rent is too high for where people want to live which is city centre Dublin and people dont want to move further away despite it being the norm in other developed countries.