Disc brakes and racing

harringtonp

Its on the way

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20171114-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-to-allow-use-of-disc-brakes-in-domestic-road-and-circuit-competition-from-2018-0

Where Britain goes, we usually follow... apart from BREXIT ...

magicbastarder

BREXIT+DISCS=BRISKET.

ednwireland

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

They obviously can't fit 12 speed onto bikes so disc brakes is the new thing.
Probably cause carnage in mixed bunches

bilbot79

Why arent they already allowed?

Weepsie

I thought it was a UCI rule that national federations couldn't use them domestically

harringtonp

2012

"John Herety, team manager of the JLT-Condor cycling team, welcomed the news: “The number of people riding disc brake road bikes is increasing all the time.

“British Cycling’s decision to allow the use of disc brakes in domestic road and closed circuit races in 2018 will help to remove a barrier that is currently preventing some people from getting into competitive racing and this decision will hopefully have a really positive impact on the future growth and sustainability of the sport.”

British Cycling is the latest cycling governing body to adopt this change and follows USA Cycling, Cycling Australia and more recently Cycling Canada. UCI sanctioned events will still be subject to specific UCI regulations in relation to the use of disc brakes."

Danbo!

bilbot79 wrote: »

Why arent they already allowed?

EDIT: Don't know what I'm talking about

Weepsie

Danbo! wrote: »

Hot sharp metal spinning things don’t mix well with skin in a pileup. I wondered as well if there’s a mix of disc and non disc, would varying braking ability in a large group pose a danger?

Should note I know nothing about racing

They manage fine in MTB and cyclocross

07Lapierre

Danbo! wrote: »

Hot sharp metal spinning things don’t mix well with skin in a pileup. I wondered as well if there’s a mix of disc and non disc, would varying braking ability in a large group pose a danger?

Should note I know nothing about racing

The only real reason to object to them is reason No. 5...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfNRq_QqShE

magicbastarder

Danbo! wrote: »

Hot sharp metal spinning things don’t mix well with skin in a pileup.

discs have nothing on chainrings when it comes to potential damage to skin.
that said, i can't see too many bunch sprints with the participants with the chain on the small ring.

Chips Lovell

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Weepsie wrote: »

I thought it was a UCI rule that national federations couldn't use them domestically

Only for UCI races. So they'd still be banned for stuff like the Tour of Britain, Tour of Yorkshire, RideLondon etc.

British Cycling is the latest cycling governing body to adopt this change and follows USA Cycling, Cycling Australia and more recently Cycling Canada. UCI sanctioned events will still be subject to specific UCI regulations in relation to the use of disc brakes.

Crocked

I thought the reason for banning them was due to different braking performance.

In a bunch on wet roads, one lad is braking on carbon clinchers and another is on discs. Going to get very messy, very quickly.

Lemming

Danbo! wrote: »

Hot sharp metal spinning things don’t mix well with skin in a pileup.

Not meaning to single you out Danbo, but what is this common perception about discs being some sort of plutonium isotope-infused razor blades? We've had posters on here before claiming that discs "tend to get sharper over time" and now claims that they're hot and sharp. It's absolute hysteria gone wild.

Discs will get hot, but to get to the point where you would pull your hand away instinctively because of the heat you would need to be absolutely wailing on the brakes and/or applying the brakes heavily over an extended period of time; sudden sharp braking wont do.

Chips Lovell

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

On a practical level it's still probably just going to be people who get paid to ride them and people who don't know any better.

Danbo!

Lemming wrote: »

Not meaning to single you out Danbo, but what is this common perception about discs being some sort of plutonium isotope-infused razor blades? We've had posters on here before claiming that discs "tend to get sharper over time" and now claims that they're hot and sharp. It's absolute hysteria gone wild.

Discs will get hot, but to get to the point where you would pull your hand away instinctively because of the heat you would need to be absolutely wailing on the brakes and/or applying the brakes heavily over an extended period of time; sudden sharp braking wont do.

Good point, I've no reliable source but wondered the same and was told by two different friends who I (had) considered knew a lot about racing. I've edited my post to stop the spread, sorry

Lemming

Danbo! wrote: »

Good point, I've no reliable source but wondered the same and was told by two different friends who I (had) considered knew a lot about racing. I've edited my post to stop the spread, sorry

Just to clarify, I know jack about (road) racing either. I'm coming from an MTB background where discs have been around for over twenty years and almost universal for the last 10/15.

harringtonp

2012

07Lapierre wrote: »

The only real reason to object to them is reason No. 5...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfNRq_QqShE

One reason not to which they didn't mention is wheel compatibility. With rim brakes you can buy any road rim wheel out there and it fits. With disc wheels you get into axle sizes and there is no standard yet.

And on the weight thing from looking I've done its not just a few grams. You can get a rim brake bike weighing 7kg for 2500 but can anybody link to a disc brake bike for <2500 with a weight anywhere near 7.5

CramCycle

2014

My only concern would be difference in breaking performance, in that if it is that much better, is there a higher risk of crashes.

Personally I don't care, a bit sh1tty on those of us who recently bought bikes with rim brakes because we were told Discs were a non runner for a few years.

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

harringtonp wrote: »

And on the weight thing from looking I've done its not just a few grams. You can get a rim brake bike weighing 7kg for 2500 but can anybody link to a disc brake bike for <2500 with a weight anywhere near 7.5

It's like we've gone back 20 years with bicycle weights.

And we're told they don't matter because aero.

CramCycle

2014

Lumen wrote: »

It's like we've gone back 20 years with bicycle weights.

And we're told they don't matter because aero.

If cyclocross is to be believed, we need heavier bikes so that we can hide the motors believably :pac:

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Also, this..

“We know that buying a bike is a significant financial investment for people to make and with the cycling industry producing more and more bikes with disc brakes we felt it was only right that we amended our regulations to ensure that people can take part in any form of cycling, whether recreational or competitive, with one bike.

...is just completely arseways.

Where does it stop? Why not let people race with mudguards and racks while we're at it? You know, to keep it accessible.

Toss. I bet the average disc braked racer costs £4k and up. What this is doing is completely the opposite of the stated objective, because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one.

And then the budget racer who could pick up a decent rim-braked race bike for £1k on the bike to work scheme (or cheaper second hand) will be completely screwed.

eeeee

2011

Lumen wrote: »

Also, this..



...is just completely arseways.

Where does it stop? Why not let people race with mudguards and racks while we're at it? You know, to keep it accessible.

Toss. I bet the average disc braked racer costs £4k and up. What this is doing is completely the opposite of the stated objective, because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one.

And then the budget racer who could pick up a decent rim-braked race bike for £1k on the bike to work scheme (or cheaper second hand) will be completely screwed.

This is absolutely the case for me, it will be years before I could afford a decent comparable disc braked bike, even when they become cheaper second hand.

So I'm gonna be on my rim brakes in a largely disc braked bunch for years. Oh joy.

Ugh

harringtonp

2012

Lumen wrote: »

Also, this..

because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one..

I presume the logic here is that disc brakes bikes DO stop quicker and that if you are the only one on rim brakes you will be going into back wheels when the bunch stalls...

Steve SilverMint

2012

I'd imagine now that Campagnolo finally launched their disc brakes during the summer the switch will really start to gather momentum.

saccades

Seventies - Apparently were misery came home to roost

Lumen wrote: »

Toss. I bet the average disc braked racer costs £4k and up. What this is doing is completely the opposite of the stated objective, because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one.

And then the budget racer who could pick up a decent rim-braked race bike for £1k on the bike to work scheme (or cheaper second hand) will be completely screwed.

My Hydro disc braked racer cost £1400 gbp, PX do a mech disc with carbon frame/forks/Rival 11 for 1350 euro. Giant Defy Disc is 1k GBP, Cube are selling ultegra carbon disc bikes for 2.5K euros, cervelo for 2.7k euros and that's before I go to pauls cycles and see cannondale synapse ultegra disc for 2k euros. Are they average enough?

You know the main difference with disc brakes? more consistent braking in poor weather conditions so the dry summer racers will be fine, you know something else that you haven't thought of....

With no need to include a braking track on the rim there is nothing to wear it out and you can start to get some really, really light rims in aluminium which are way cheaper than carbon (less sexy though) that will last an age. My last disc wheel (Open Pro on XT hub) hit 23K on wicklows roads before a spoke went and it needed a rebuilt, rim was immaculate. It's done another 5K plus on a mates commuter bike in dublin.

My current rims are on ~7K.

I'd be more worried about which bolt thru standard becomes the standard.

niceonetom

saccades wrote: »

My Hydro disc braked racer cost £1400 gbp, PX do a mech disc with carbon frame/forks/Rival 11 for 1350 euro. Giant Defy Disc is 1k GBP, Cube are selling ultegra carbon disc bikes for 2.5K euros, cervelo for 2.7k euros and that's before I go to pauls cycles and see cannondale synapse ultegra disc for 2k euros. Are they average enough?

You know the main difference with disc brakes? more consistent braking in poor weather conditions so the dry summer racers will be fine, you know something else that you haven't thought of....

With no need to include a braking track on the rim there is nothing to wear it out and you can start to get some really, really light rims in aluminium which are way cheaper than carbon (less sexy though) that will last an age. My last disc wheel (Open Pro on XT hub) hit 23K on wicklows roads before a spoke went and it needed a rebuilt, rim was immaculate. It's done another 5K plus on a mates commuter bike in dublin.

My current rims are on ~7K.

I'd be more worried about which bolt thru standard becomes the standard.

Yeah, but those bikes are still significantly heavier than the same model with rim brakes... so the trade-off between weight and braking has to be faced by those without megabucks. That's a trade-off that simply doesn't exist as it stands.

It's not entirely trivial either. An extra kg can be the difference between getting over a hill fairly handily and suffering like a dog, at least that has been my experience in racing.

The weight-penalty for disks seems to generally be about 700g to 1000g (and about the same number of euro) - how many racers would be keen on the idea of taking an additional couple of bidons up every incline? On the promise that their rims will last longer?

Outside of road-racing, discs make a lot of sense, but in the bunch rim brakes still win out on the basis of weight, aerodynamics, level of faff, and inevitable crash replacement cost.

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

I looked at some prices and it seems the hydro disc penalty over rim brakes is currently around €500 or 25%, whichever is greater.

niceonetom

And about how many grams does that €500 add to average total bike?

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

niceonetom wrote: »

And about how many grams does that €500 add to average total bike?

Dunno.

Here's a custom weightweenied Colnago C60 disc @ 7.4kg. It looks very expensive.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134689

I bet it cost a lot more than AstraMonti's 5.63kg Planet X.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84778803&postcount=5523

CramCycle

2014

Suppose it will depend on the number of crashes it causes in A4 before they decide on making discs mandatory or having seperate races.

I for one think that once they get the indoor velodrome built, it will be grand, as none of us will need brakes then.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

Dunno.

Here's a custom weightweenied Colnago C60 disc @ 7.4kg. It looks very expensive.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134689

I bet it cost a lot more than AstraMonti's 5.63kg Planet X.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84778803&postcount=5523

I'm not talking about bespoke show-ponies that exist to be photographed for the the internet. As I'm sure Astra would (eventually) admit, that is a very sill bike. Lovely, but silly.

What I was trying to compare is the opposite end of the fred ladder - off-the-peg, my-first-proper-race-bike bikes. You know, big brand, ultegra, alu wheels. Ford Focus of bikes. That kind of thing.

The Giant TCR is probably about as typical and vanilla as it gets. You can get this for €2100 rrp or you can essentially the same bike with disks for €2400. So only 300 extra...

But the one with discs is about 800 to 1000g heavier (depending on which reviews you chose to believe).

So the cheaper bike is the faster one, more or less. And that's why I'd chose it for racing.

But I'm not sure I can rely on others to do the same though, judging by the amount of cycling industry press-release boilerplate guff that pops up on forums.

Personally, I hope that the whenever the rules change and the first tranche of disk-equipped freds show up to race in spring, they are mocked and derided mercilessly, to the point of tears and deep deep buyer's remorse.

Racing a bike with disk brakes should be seen as an open declaration of incompetence, naivety, neophytism, and disrespect to the sport, your fellow competitor, nature, your country, the cycling gods, and Sean Kelly himself. Hopefully that taboo will be established and disks will be like hairy legs or helmets with peaks on them - not illegal, but frowned upon with a severity sufficient to keep the numbers down.