Disc brakes and racing

CramCycle

2014

Agree with everything even the hairy legs comment, while I like well shaved legs, my partner doesn't so I have to accept the humiliation when I turn up in a TT suit and King Kong's legs.

Eamonnator

Seventies - Apparently were misery came home to roost

Here is a comparison between two Canyon Bikes. They have the exact same components and wheels, with one exception. One has disc brakes, the other doesn't.
The disc brake version is one kilogramme heavier and six hundred Euro more expensive.

https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/tools/bike-comparison/#biketype=1&bike1=4160&bike2=4084

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Eamonnator wrote: »

Here is a comparison between two Canyon Bikes. They have the exact same components and wheels, with one exception. One has disc brakes, the other doesn't.
The disc brake version is one kilogramme heavier and six hundred Euro more expensive.

https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/tools/bike-comparison/#biketype=1&bike1=4160&bike2=4084

That's a great comparison.

The rim-braked version might be bang on 6.8kg with pedals and bottle cages. The disc braked version is going to be 7.8kg.

But....

The rim-braked one has full carbon rims. I haven't used any very modern carbon rims, but the 2010-ish ones I had were just woeful in the wet. It never seemed to matter for racing, because there wasn't much braking in the racing I did, but still...

Maybe there will be a split between entry level race bikes with shallow alu rims and expensive bikes with deep sections and disc brakes.

The braking will be similar but the deep rimmed disc braked versions will have different aero.

What's the latest on the drag of loadsa spokes + sticky out disc brakes + deep rims vs shallow low-spoke rim-braked wheels?

endacl

Lumen wrote: »

It's like we've gone back 20 years with bicycle weights.

And we're told they don't matter because aero.

Always easiest and cheapest to drop weight from the engine.

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

endacl wrote: »

Always easiest and cheapest to drop weight from the engine.

But completely irrelevant to a discussion of alternative bicycle components.

eeeee

2011

niceonetom wrote: »

I<snip>

The Giant TCR is probably about as typical and vanilla as it gets. You can get this for €2100 rrp or you can essentially the same bike with disks for €2400. So only 300 extra...

But the one with discs is about 800 to 1000g heavier (depending on which reviews you chose to believe).

So the cheaper bike is the faster one, more or less. And that's why I'd chose it for racing.

But I'm not sure I can rely on others to do the same though, judging by the amount of cycling industry press-release boilerplate guff that pops up on forums.

Personally, I hope that the whenever the rules change and the first tranche of disk-equipped freds show up to race in spring, they are mocked and derided mercilessly, to the point of tears and deep deep buyer's remorse.
<snip>

€300 is a huge amount of money to someone like me, and in fact if I do get a disc braked bike it will be years after they become legal, and therefore affordable second hand.

They will be completely and totally adopted by fellow racers, of that I have no doubt. Most take on every single legal technological advance as soon as it can.
In the same way few race with downtube shifters now, rim brakes will go the same way.
Even Sean Kelly couldn't hold out on the technological advances, he raced clipped in in the end.
There will be fcuk all derision, and ships jumped as soon as they can be if every other technological advance to hit racing has proved.

But not before I can afford to upgrade, and have years of avoiding the back of sharp braking disc people.
Disc's coming in unlevels the playing field even more, and make an already exclusive sport even further out of reach, and unaffordable.

Cant wait :rolleyes:

saccades

Seventies - Apparently were misery came home to roost

"Disks coming in unlevels the playing field even more"

The engine matters the most, then at speed it's aero. Any other complaint is someone not training enough.


I don't race because I'm currently not allowed to.

I'm a disc convert, I think they are ace for mtb, commuting and club spins in dirty weather. A lot of people in the road club were worried about my road discs on the sunday spin initially. 2 years later and no one cares as I haven't chainsawed anyone in half, if there is a need for emergency braking then bumping into another bike is down the list of worries.

For racing in Ireland (And pro racing in general)... I don't think it's quite so clear cut, some races they will make sense others they won't, it's another thing to think about before a race the same as calculating which cassette to put on.

I do have to point out the logical failure in your post though nee - you can spend 2.1K on a TCR rim braked bike but can't afford the extra 300 for the heavier disc version? Spend that 2.1K updating your current bike to include discs (front only if on a strict budget).

Macy0161

2014

Can only talk as some one who got a disc brakes bike when the thoughts of racing hadn't entered my head. The ban probably already has been a barrier to me!

eeeee

2011

saccades wrote: »

"Disks coming in unlevels the playing field even more"

The engine matters the most, then at speed it's aero. Any other complaint is someone not training enough.


I don't race because I'm currently not allowed to.

I'm a disc convert, I think they are ace for mtb, commuting and club spins in dirty weather. A lot of people in the road club were worried about my road discs on the sunday spin initially. 2 years later and no one cares as I haven't chainsawed anyone in half, if there is a need for emergency braking then bumping into another bike is down the list of worries.

For racing in Ireland (And pro racing in general)... I don't think it's quite so clear cut, some races they will make sense others they won't, it's another thing to think about before a race the same as calculating which cassette to put on.

I do have to point out the logical failure in your post though nee - you can spend 2.1K on a TCR rim braked bike but can't afford the extra 300 for the heavier disc version? Spend that 2.1K updating your current bike to include discs (front only if on a strict budget).

I can't afford either of those bikes, I said that €300 is a huge amount of money to me, as a difference. If I get the money to buy a new (second hand) race bike, the price differential between rim and disc brakes has it out of my price range for a long while yet.

Obviously the engine matters most, that concept isn't beyond me! But if the same one is on a 7kg disc braked bike, and the other is on (as I am at the mo) a 10kg rim braked bike, disc brake person is going to be able to have more modulation, and comfort on a rolling course, brake later into corners etc. etc. It's a fallacy to say they'll be the same.

And I don't know if racing has changed since you were at it but people slamming on their brakes happens A LOT in the road races I do. It happens repeatedly in every single one I do. This is going to be a lot scarier when those people are on discs and I am on rim brakes.

Bear in mind what happens in the pro peleton is a lot different in the amateur one, you can't compare them. Also bear in mind that the womens races are not divided into abilities, all are in together, which is another concern in the disc and rim thing.

Yet another reason track rules, no brakes or gears!

Cookie_Monster

Anything that raises the profile and makes them more common is good new IMO.
My road bike has rims brakes, my cycloX commuter discs. I hate the road bike now, the brakes are totally ****. I cannot wait to be able to afford to replace it with all new disc based goodness and feel good about stopping once more.

harringtonp

2012

nee wrote: »

They will be completely and totally adopted by fellow racers, of that I have no doubt. Most take on every single legal technological advance as soon as it can.
In the same way few race with downtube shifters now, rim brakes will go the same way.
Even Sean Kelly couldn't hold out on the technological advances, he raced clipped in in the end.
There will be fcuk all derision, and ships jumped as soon as they can be if every other technological advance to hit racing has proved.

Cant wait :rolleyes:

Love your optimism. The 2 other things you mention were advances... they made a rider go faster and it was a no brainer to adopt them.

Look around the domestic peleton: aero frames, light but deep section wheels, skin suits, aero helmets, shaved legs, guys carry next to nothing in pockets. This is all in the name of free speed. There is no way these guys are going to take on something that adds the guts of the extra kg and reduces aerodynamics.

In club circles you do see guys talking up disc brakes. But in general they don't race and are the guys who are most risk averse when it comes to route choice, road conditions etc. Tell the public disc brakes are safer and by in large they will go for up. But the racing scene won't buy that as the level of risk (and lack of control they have over it) they face is high.

It will only change if the weights equalize due to frame changes (and I gather there is scope for this) and they can get enough marketing blurb out there to convince riders that there is no loss in aerodynamics.

As others say the engine is the main thing but unlike running all the other things you can do to help yourself go faster are a very big second (as anybody who has recently switched from summer bike and setup to winter will probably attest).

eeeee

2011

harringtonp wrote: »

Love your optimism. The 2 other things you mention were advances... they made a rider go faster and it was a no brainer to adopt them.

Look around the domestic peleton: aero frames, light but deep section wheels, skin suits, aero helmets, shaved legs, guys carry next to nothing in pockets. This is all in the name of free speed. There is no way these guys are going to take on something that adds the guts of the extra kg and reduces aerodynamics.

In club circles you do see guys talking up disc brakes. But in general they don't race and are the guys who are most risk averse when it comes to route choice, road conditions etc. Tell the public disc brakes are safer and by in large they will go for up. But the racing scene won't buy that as the level of risk (and lack of control they have over it) they face is high.

It will only change if the weights equalize due to frame changes (and I gather there is scope for this) and they can get enough marketing blurb out there to convince riders that there is no loss in aerodynamics.

As others say the engine is the main thing but unlike running all the other things you can do to help yourself go faster are a very big second (as anybody who has recently switched from summer bike and setup to winter will probably attest).

I agree with the above. I also think it's only a matter of time before they make disc bikes as light as rim-braked bikes.

There is a large part of me that thinks this is all just a way of selling a new thing to make more moneny cos the margins on the old thing are shot to shyte. It seems market rather than performance driven.

I'm not anti-disc, they make sense in a lot of ways, but I can't say I have ever felt the rim brakes on my race bike deficient, although I can also see how discs can aid performance (late braking into corners is a big one, it's a cnut to have to chase back on after them if you get caught behind at them). I just feel like it's just a method of selling bikes.

I hope it'll take a while, but I'm pretty sure those with deep pockets will be racing super light disc brake bikes as soon as they can, leaving those who can't at a disadvantage.

All those second place things add up, secondary and all though they are.

And so everyone goes out to buy a new bike...

magicbastarder

nee wrote: »

And so everyone goes out to buy a new bike...

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

CramCycle

2014

I use the same bike for commuting, audaxes, club spins, racing. While we all say about different bikes for different things, I imagine I am not alone in my limited number of bikes.

I won't be getting another road bike for at least 4 years, again, I doubt I am the only one.

Chips Lovell

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Whatever about weight, I think the biggest drawback is that they're not very practical for road racing, which you'd quickly find out the first time you find yourself standing at the side of a road holding a wheel in the air watching the bunch disappear.

CramCycle

2014

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Whatever about weight, I think the biggest drawback is that they're not very practical for road racing, which you'd quickly find out the first time you find yourself standing at the side of a road holding a wheel in the air watching the bunch disappear.

So your saying they work as legitimate excuses, my mind is changing.

harringtonp

2012

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

Winter bike: 2009
Summer (race) bike: 2013

Both 10 speed, 11 speed will eventually force an upgrade of some sort

ednwireland

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

2009 focus cayo (3rd set of wheels)

jamesd

2015

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

Summer Bike - 2016
Winter Bike - 2016

CramCycle

2014

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

2015 Stevens Veulta

oinkely

2001 Giant TCR (though haven't raced since the bike was only 10 years old)

dahat

Race bike 2016
Winter bike 2015

No plans to upgrade either, race bike will see me out as I'm 40 yrs old and A3 with a season of hidings ahead. Possibly another 2/3 years racing left in me.

triggermortis

2015

Summer bike - 2016
Winter bike - 2010
Commuter bike - 2010
MTB - 2004

secman

Eighties - Where all great things came from

Summer bike wexford : 2017
Winter/ summer being one bike Dublin: 2017
Winter bike wexford : 2010
Occasional nostalgic bike :1992.

Good side of hitting 60 this year... 2 new steeds

eeeee

2011

Road bike: 2012
Track bike: 2004
Commuter: 1978

1 pair in wheels on each, and not interchangeable.

I'd fcuking love newer bikes.

Chips Lovell

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

magicbastarder wrote: »

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

My oldest bike is my race bike. 10 years old and still going strong.

smacl

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Main bike Rose CX 2014, old 2nd hand Ridley permanently on turbo maybe 2000-2004ish. Commuter hybrid 2008.

magicbastarder

newer road bike: 2014
old road bike: mixture of 2001 and 2007ish
MTB: 2004

Borderfox

2014

Summer bike 2015
Winter bike 2014
Both disc

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Maybe a poll of "how many years old is your race bike?" would be a bit more useful. :-)