#StopKillingCyclists - Kildare Street Tuesday 21st 5.30

Schrodingercat

I think the animosity between motorists and cyclists is hugely exaggerated. The extremists are the ones who are heard on the radio or post on twitter. The vast sensible majority of commuters don't bother tweeting or going on Radio.


I very rarely experience that "hate" on my daily commute.

I'll regularly have cars move out a bit If I am filtering on the inside in stopped traffic, or let me through at junctions. I've pushed cars off the road who have broken down so they aren't blocking other traffic.
The last time I knocked on a van window was to tell him his back door was open and his tools would fall out (the driver assumed I was going to give out to him).

The vast majority of interactions I have commuting around dublin (whether in a car or bike) are positive, and all the anger you hear in the media leads people to believe cycling is a lot more dangerous than it is.

More awareness of bikes will improve safety, and I think the best way to get that is more people on bikes. The more often you see a bike on the road the more you will check your mirrors and blind spots for bikes.


I'll be there tonight.

Rogue-Trooper

Going to try get down to this if I can get out of work on time. Have put the word out to my cycling colleagues too. Really hope they get a good turnout for it.

CramCycle

Schrodingercat wrote: »

I very rarely experience that "hate" on my daily commute.

Same here, I meet the one lunatic now and again, but i pass or am passed by hundreds of people daily, they are a small percentage.

I'll regularly have cars move out a bit If I am filtering on the inside in stopped traffic, or let me through at junctions. I've pushed cars off the road who have broken down so they aren't blocking other traffic.

Done this the other night, it was quite comical as I pushed the car in cleats. Even funnier was that the driver put a post up on facebook and my partner copped it solely on using my first name and "he was a cyclist", one of my three defining features, which is a bit sad.

The last time I knocked on a van window was to tell him his back door was open and his tools would fall out (the driver assumed I was going to give out to him).

Same last night, but I was telling me his light just blew. He was really defensive and started telling me he was in the right before he realised what I was saying and said thanks.

More awareness of bikes will improve safety, and I think the best way to get that is more people on bikes. The more often you see a bike on the road the more you will check your mirrors and blind spots for bikes

And that is the bottom line, I am not a cycling activist, in fact if everyone drove safely, I would be alot happier with less cyclists on the road, no point in lying but since this is not happening, it is more beneficial to me to have more cyclists on the road so that

Schrodingercat

CramCycle wrote: »

Done this the other night, it was quite comical as I pushed the car in cleats. Even funnier was that the driver put a post up on facebook and my partner copped it solely on using my first name and "he was a cyclist", one of my three defining features, which is a bit sad.

Its always easier to offer to push a car when you are on a bike rather than have to pull over and get out of your car. Its amazing when once you start pushing a load of other people appear and start helping. Nobody wants to be the first person to offer.

CramCycle wrote: »

And that is the bottom line, I am not a cycling activist, in fact if everyone drove safely, I would be alot happier with less cyclists on the road, no point in lying but since this is not happening, it is more beneficial to me to have more cyclists on the road so that

That cycle path along the canal is a nightmare to get anywhere fast when its busy. But I suppose thats not the point of it.


https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/17/copenhagen-cycling-peak-bike
Cyclists often have to wait through two or three rounds of green lights before they can get past.

fat bloke

Gonna try and head in with my two young 'uns.

rob w

Ill be there!

doozerie

I won't be there as, ironically, I'll be driving my car at the time (with two bicycles loaded in the back, so I'm not going complete cold turkey).

I'm all in favour of events that show cyclists in numbers on the road, I really think it does raise awareness of our existence but more importantly I think/hope it highlights that we are just normal people, like everyone else. We just happen to be normal people who ride bikes.

I have reservations about the "#StopKillingCyclists" tag though. I appreciate that sometimes it feels like only a stark message will shake people out of their complacency and make them pay attention. But on the other hand I suspect that if you ask someone whether they are associated with, or a member of a group responsible for, the killing of cyclists then they'd say no. Which, of course, is part of the fundamental problem, everyone believes the problem is someone else and that therefore they don't need to change their own attitude or behaviour.

Ultimately an event like this has to appeal to all road users, make all of us reconsider our all-too-often casual attitude and behaviour on the roads, make us realise that a single rash choice that we make on the spur of the moment could have horrific consequences for those around us and perhaps ourselves too. I like to think of myself as a conscientious cyclist and motorist but, just like anyone else, a self-serving poor decision on my part to overtake in poor visibility, drive too quickly into a blind bend, "squeeze through" a red light, etc., etc. is all that separates me from motorists that have badly hurt or killed another road user, cyclist or otherwise. And there is always the temptation to make such stupid and dangerous decisions, we are all selfish humans at the end of the day. Recognising the danger that we'd pose in doing so is what makes most of us choose not to make such decisions, and it's this kind of reasoning I think we need to encourage in all road users.

Safety on the roads will increase as we all act with more thought and consideration. A tagline like "#StopKillingCyclists" risks causing (more) division rather than encouraging empathy, in my view, and I think it is a poor choice.

fat bloke

Well as long as cyclists go around "colliding" with all and sundry then motorists could be forgiven for shrugging off any blame. Sure isn't it only themselves they're killing, coming out of nowhere?

Anyway, I'm here, good and early. Between parking and pizza and ice cream for the kids, gonna cost me 60 quid . Still there's a nice Christmassy air about, and I haven't been in town for ages and ages.

tomasrojo

doozerie wrote: »

A tagline like "#StopKillingCyclists" risks causing (more) division rather than encouraging empathy, in my view, and I think it is a poor choice.

I did wonder whether it's addressed to the people who design streets, who I think to a certain extent are killing cyclists. At least, they're repeating designs that either cleanse streets of cyclists or put the cyclists who are willing to use them at risk (slip lanes on suburban roads, multi-lane roundabouts, arcing street corners that allow motorists to corner at high speed, narrow lanes that combine high-speed cars with bikes and so on).

I couldn't make it in to this, which I regret. But I also don't really like the title of it, and I don't like the use of a "die-in". I think this protest is modelled on recent protests in London, which themselves are modelled on protests from the 70s in the Netherlands. I guess you can argue they worked before, but I'm not 100% comfortable with them.

doozerie

fat bloke wrote: »

Well as long as cyclists go around "colliding" with all and sundry then motorists could be forgiven for shrugging off any blame. Sure isn't it only themselves they're killing, coming out of nowhere?

Behaviour on the roads by different groups has been a divisive issue for as long as I can remember, probably forever. I don't think attitudes, and therefore behaviour, will ever change as long as that divisiveness persists. And even a well-meaning approach can effectively end up feeding and reinforcing that animosity via nothing more than a slogan that could be perceived as accusatory.

There are some completely reckless arseholes on the roads (in cars, on bicycles, etc.) - they can't be reasoned with, only enforcement of the laws (which is sorely lacking) and associated punishments will have any chance of moderating their behaviour because arseholes will always behave like arseholes given a chance. But I believe them to be a tiny minority.

As far as I am concerned, when it comes to motorists, the greater danger is the majority of self-proclaimed "good drivers". These are the people who, like me and most of us, mostly try to behave responsibly. But their assessment of risk is skewed. They'll sometimes overtake a cyclist, giving them plenty of room (= considerate driver, by their assessment) by moving over the solid white line completely into the oncoming lane, and then get a fright when oncoming traffic emerges from the blind bend ahead before they've completed the overtake - they then wilfully ignore the fact that the dangerous situation was a direct consequence of their behaviour.

They'll also sometimes drive too closely to the cyclist (or motorist) in front of them in the self-serving expectation that "it'll be fine". They'll sometimes "squeeze through" that red traffic light because it hasn't been red for very long and therefore "it'll be fine". They'll sometimes overtake a cyclist too close so that they don't have to either wait behind for a few second, or inconvenience oncoming traffic by keeping out towards the centre line, and "it'll be fine". Etc, etc.

People make these decisions all the time, not because they are out to kill, but because they have given no thought to the risks they pose. They need to give thought to those risks, they need to understand that they are making themselves the source of the danger, that they are the villain in those situations. Once people acknowledge that to themselves I'm convinced their behaviour will improve, because with the rare exception no-one really wants to be the cause of death or serious injury of anyone else.

But admitting to yourself that you are the scourge takes effort, it's not going to happen easily. I believe we need to appeal to peoples' sense of social responsibility to get them to that point. Such people don't perceive themselves as killers of cyclists, they likely associate that label with that tiny minority of reckless drivers who care about nothing and no-one. And such people are not in that lunatic group, how could they be when they themselves only sometimes "bend the law" or whatever they like to call it when they switch off their consciences however momentarily.

I think that previous efforts which normalised cyclists are a big step in the right direction. Pointing out that cyclists are your sister/brother/mother/father/daughter/son/whatever, things like that can be enough to override that sense of cyclists being "other" and hopefully therefore override that sense that cyclists are not deserving of the same kind of consideration you'd show to people you associate yourself with. Labels all too often have the opposite effect, unfortunately, even with the best of intentions.

magicbastarder

what sort of turnout was there?
didn't make it in unfortunately.

doozerie

tomasrojo wrote: »

I did wonder whether it's addressed to the people who design streets, who I think to a certain extent are killing cyclists. At least, they're repeating designs that either cleanse streets of cyclists or put the cyclists who are willing to use them at risk (slip lanes on suburban roads, multi-lane roundabouts, arcing street corners that allow motorists to corner at high speed, narrow lanes that combine high-speed cars with bikes and so on).

I can certainly sympathise with that, I mumble some choice words about road designers all too often. And I do think that a more hardline approach towards those behind road design and traffic management is justified.

They get time to think about their design before it is implemented, they have access to informed guidance and opinion from other countries which have been doing this better since forever. As far as I am concerned they have absolutely no excuse for some of the appalling stuff they've put in place.

So if the label on today's protest was aimed at such people then I'd have no reservations about it at all. And perhaps it is aimed at them, but if so I think that hasn't been made clear enough.

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

what sort of turnout was there?
didn't make it in unfortunately.

At a guess 200

doozerie

Oh, and this event was discussed on Newstalk earlier (around 16h30 or so). Damian O'Tuama and Ciaran Cuffe represented themselves well, fair play to both of them!

Especially given the tone of some of the messages that were sent into the show - the usual stuff like "all cyclists are irresponsible, break lights, punch kittens, etc.", "cyclists MUST wear hi-viz, helmets, and lights (in that order)", "cyclists should have to pay insurance, and ROAD TAX!!!!!", blah blah. I didn't hear the rest as I stopped the car in the outer lane of the motorway to fetch a wheel wrench from the boot to batter the bleedin' car radio.

I should have known better than to start reading this thread. :rolleyes:


Well done to all that went in, I couldn't make it this time.

tomasrojo

Good turnout, I think:
https://twitter.com/PadraigRice/status/933031786682175489

There was coverage on the Six One news , looked a good turn out.

Chips Lovell

Reopening. Troll banned. In future folks, please report rather than respond.

Thanks

Lusk_Doyle

Why were they all lying down? Were they actively trying to get killed or what?

07Lapierre

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why were they all lying down? Were they actively trying to get killed or what?

The cyclist code: if you’re not cycling, don’t stand if you can sit, don’t sit if you can lie down!

ED E

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why were they all lying down? Were they actively trying to get killed or what?

The road was closed first. Its a symbolic gesture that started in london to highlight the number of cyclists that are killed and end up lying prone on the street.

uck51js9zml2yt

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why were they all lying down? Were they actively trying to get killed or what?

Maybe they were tired after a day in work!

Didn't get to the protest but on leaving work all those who were leaving with me and cycle had their yellow cycle jackets on, helmets and lights.
Im in the car for now after my altercation with the luas tracks and a bus and very thankful the bus driver saw me and swerved. I was driving home over butt bridge northbouñd this evening and it was scarey the amount of cyclists with no lights and dark clothes who expected me to see them.
Where were the Gardai? The only one I saw had pulled a car in on the bridge.

mr spuckler

ED E wrote: »

At a guess 200

there was a decent turnout. they closed the road to facilitate the die-in, few media outlets were there and David Norris spoke (I couldn't hear much of what he said tbh). was pretty much over after 20 mins.

oh - Danny Healy-Rae made an appearance to ask some people what they were asking for of the Dáil.

I was a bit disappointed by the tone of the six-one report - referring to 'militant' actions by cyclists.

mr spuckler

it did lead to mass confusion when i went to turn on my Dublin trial version See.Sense light...

Corca Baiscinn

I've found this thread both moving and interesting. Makes a nice contrast from the twitter/fb storm referred to by a poster. Like the posters from Kildare and Limerick I'm too far away to take part on a week evening but even for those of you in Dublin, unless you already work in the cc ye were mighty to head into town at rush hour, with in some cases children in tow. There's no day/time for these events that would suit everybody so it's probably best to vary them. In the past year or two, there has been a lunchtime cycle/protest, a Sunday morning one, and one or two after work/evening ones.

The point made re would why would CI support something which focuses on the negatives of cycling is interesting. Given that they must receive funding from the Sports Council or some such Gov Body I imagine they dont want to be seen biting the hand that feeds them either but given that several club cyclists were killed this year it's good to see that CI members are thinking about the issues.

I agree with the poster who says he/she assumes the "Stop Killing Cyclists" slogan is aimed at those responsible for designing but also funding infrastructure. I heard 2 interviews with Damien O' Tuama from cyclist.ie this evening and in each one he spoke about poor infrastructure and the minuscule % of the overall transport which is allocated to cycling. He also mentioned enforcement though, it's the other leg so to speak. Most of this year's fatalities occurred on rural roads and no matter how much infrastructure we build likely none of us will be alive by the time the entire country has parallel cycling infrastructure, so enforcement is a big issue.

Many people, like some posters here, have reservations re "die-in" protests. I think the London ones have been very stark and graphic whereas from what I saw of the Dublin one it was short and incorporated into the overall vigil. I guess it must be a bit like workers who politely request a pay rise, enter into prolonged negotiations but eventually lose patience and go out on strike. Cycling Advocacy groups have been making polite requests for quite some time and have seen endless delay, crap design and promises of jam tomorrow so it doesn't surprise me that they are upping their game.

Well done to the organisers and attendees. Cram Cycle's post described the devastating loss to families/friends of those who died only too well so fingers x we've seen the last fatality for a while

circular flexing

I think a "die-in" sends the wrong message and might be counter-productive in discouraging more people from cycling.

endacl

bilbot79 wrote: »

I get it, I do.

You really don't seem to, because....

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think motorists and cyclists hate and disrespect each other.

...no we (speaking as a cycling motorist/motoring cyclist) don't.

tampopo

I went. Is traffic usually that heavy or is it the Christmas effect?

doozerie

tampopo wrote: »

Is traffic usually that heavy or is it the Christmas effect?

The Christmas period tends to be heavier. And grumpier. :pac:

(...so that's me on the naughty list.)

Cookie_Monster

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why were they all lying down? Were they actively trying to get killed or what?

Lucky all those paramedics are there in their high vis ambulance gear, oh wait...