Have I just screwed up my development career?

Fukuyama

Hi Guys,

Looking for a bit of career advice. Basically, I did a course in 2015-16 and got my first development job in the summer of 2016. Worked there for nine months with Python and Javascript (Django, Angular and Cordova). Quickly became an important member of the team and by the end I was responsible for the mobile apps.

I made a somewhat hasty decision to leave to freelance. I figured (wrongly) I could make more money selling my wares on the open market. I had a few clients (mostly US) building MVP type systems for startup ideas. I also wanted to build something myself but never had the time. Anyways - my early successes have proved difficult to replicate.

I've decided to put this venture out of its misery and get back into a normal job in January. However I feel like I now have this massive black hole on my CV?

Any advise on how to get myself and my CV ready?

I should mention that I've only ever had one development job (internship which turned into a full-time role) at 32k/yr. Should I be looking for a junior position to pick things up where I left off?

Should I target startups who might be a little more forgiving than a corporations HR department?

Cheers,
Dean

14ned

Fukuyama wrote: »

I made a somewhat hasty decision to leave to freelance. I figured (wrongly) I could make more money selling my wares on the open market. I had a few clients (mostly US) building MVP type systems for startup ideas. I also wanted to build something myself but never had the time. Anyways - my early successes have proved difficult to replicate.

As you've just learned, you will get quite a bit of piecework after leaving a permanent role, but then it dries up. They stop thinking of you you see, you will need to do something which causes your name to constantly reappear to remind them. Like present at a major conference every year, write books on some niche topic, provide training courses etc etc

I've decided to put this venture out of its misery and get back into a normal job in January. However I feel like I now have this massive black hole on my CV?

If you've been out of work for less than a year, you should be fine.

Include the piecework with dates in your CV. It shows you're a go-getter.

Niall

Fukuyama

14ned wrote: »

As you've just learned, you will get quite a bit of piecework after leaving a permanent role, but then it dries up. They stop thinking of you you see, you will need to do something which causes your name to constantly reappear to remind them. Like present at a major conference every year, write books on some niche topic, provide training courses etc etc



If you've been out of work for less than a year, you should be fine.

Include the piecework with dates in your CV. It shows you're a go-getter.

Niall

Hi Niall,

Cheers for the advice. Very true. Initially I thought I was onto a winner. I was turning work away. Lesson learned.

I do still find myself at a cross roads. Most of the jobs I see advertised seem to be in banks/multi nations. I've only worked in a small Irish startup (5-8 employees). Will that be a mark against me?

Any skills you know to be in high demand / short supply in Dublin right now?

Cheers,
Dean

Have you spoken to your old employer recently?
Would they take you back or suggest you to somebody else?

Fukuyama

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you spoken to your old employer recently?
Would they take you back or suggest you to somebody else?

I imagine a positive reference would be provided - however I have no real interest in going back. Although I want a new job I'm also after a new challenge, perhaps in a slightly bigger company with better pay.

My last job was a very early stage startup. It was good because I was hand-on from the get go but there was a very definite ceiling to what one could earn. I mostly left because I was told 32k would be my salary for at least another year. I was doing 45 hours per week and was doing the job of a mid level dev in reality.

server down

Working as a contractor doesn’t screw up your career. And gaps don’t matter unless your skills atrophy.

I would suggest as well that you get a github profile.

igCorcaigh

Agencies might give some advice. I don't think you will have any problems getting work.

Goodshape

Fukuyama wrote: »

Any skills you know to be in high demand / short supply in Dublin right now?

JavaScript is definitely in demand. Python maybe too. Both have large active developer communities in Dublin, you might have a look on meetup.com for an event happening.


Don't worry too much about the freelancing time being an empty space on your CV. You weren't doing nothing. Put it down as time self employed, and list the individual achievements, projects worked on, technologies used, lessons learned, etc.

Fukuyama

Hi guys,

Just wondering if anyone would mind having a look at my CV and cover letter? Spent this afternoon tinkering and adjusting it to the job market.

Would be great to have an experienced developer throw a more seasoned eye over it.

Cheers,
Dean

Evil Phil

Fukuyama wrote: »

I made a somewhat hasty decision to leave to freelance. I figured (wrongly) I could make more money selling my wares on the open market. I had a few clients (mostly US) building MVP type systems for startup ideas. I also wanted to build something myself but never had the time. Anyways - my early successes have proved difficult to replicate.

You spent this time in your own consulting working for international clients. If you could name them, show the work you produced for them, that would be even better. Honestly, I don't see a problem here.

Fukuyama

Evil Phil wrote: »

You spent this time in your own consulting working for international clients. If you could name them, show the work you produced for them, that would be even better. Honestly, I don't see a problem here.

Hmm. Well I'd be hesitant to put it in those terms. Less 'Consulting for international clients' more 'freelance development for small startups and individuals with an idea'. I was making a few grand per month initially but it would always be a case where one bad month sinks my ship.

I also want to stress that I'm still a junior level developer. I know there's a lot of experienced developers and consultants on here who likely have a very different experience of contracting/freelancing.

Right now I have just over a years experience encompassing:

Python/Django web development (TDD building REST APIs, views etc...)
AngularJS and Cordova Hybrid Mobile Apps
Angular 4+ and Ionic for apps
Git, Linux, managing CI etc...

I'm noticing that most jobs seem to be listed as 'Senior'. What Junior-Mid positions there are seem to be Java or .NET roles. Then again I might just be job hunting at a terrible time of year...

Evil Phil

I think January will pick up for jobs, nobody wants to hire in December. I wouldn't stress that your were a junior developer - managers will pick that up from your cv anyway.

https://gradireland.com/ might be a good place to try.

Thoie

As suggested, put "freelancing" or whatever in to cover the gap, but be prepared in the interview to answer the questions of "why did you move to that in the first place?" and "why are you looking for a full time job now?"

There are no particular wrong answers, just be prepared to answer those without umming and ahing.

For example, it's perfectly OK to say that you want to return to full time work because you found that you were better on the development side of things than on the marketing side, and talk about how you've learned from that. If you have circumstances such as "applying for a mortgage" you can discuss that too - e.g. "While the money from freelancing was good, payments were quite erratic, and I found myself spending too much time chasing payment. On top of that, I'm applying for a mortgage, and prefer the stability of a full time employee position for the first 5-8 years of a mortgage."

Obviously change it to match your own circumstances.

Tom Dunne

I would agree with Phil, I don't see the problem here.

What I do see is a crisis in confidence - you don't seem to believe in yourself and your capabilities. You need to turn everything negative into a positive.

For example, you left a small startup to go out on your own (not because you were told you will stay on 32k for the next year). You developed a number of custom apps for startups (you may not be able to name them, but be prepared to go into detail on the industry and the technologies you used).

Instead of saying "the work dried up" you spin it as "having tasted the freelance style of working, I grew to the conclusion that the sporadic and uncertain nature of that kind of working was not something that was compatible with my lifestyle, so I made the decision to go back to working for a company where I believe I can start a new chapter in my career and leverage my significant experience to develop myself even further".

Ok, I admit that is quite fluffy, but you get the idea - turn negative into positive.

KellyXX

My company is mad for all types of developers. As are most companies I know of. I dont think you should worry at all.

beauf

You're over thinking it. Keep working. It will all come good. Enjoy the experience in a small team. Once you end up in a bigger company, you will miss that freedom.

Fukuyama

Thanks guys for all the responses. I've re-done my CV a little with the help of a few posters on here. Mostly reorganising things.

I have a phone interview tomorrow for a company. A little disappointing considering it was just a 'generic' application I fired off to a position I wouldn't be overly interested in (different stack than mine etc...) and not one of the applications I spent a couple hours on.. But it'll be good interview experience.

My company is mad for all types of developers. As are most companies I know of. I dont think you should worry at all.

Mind me asking how they recruit?

Right now I'm essentially applying to any ad resembling 'Junior Python Developer'. I keep hearing of this massive demand in Dublin etc... yet there's maybe 1-2 new junior-mid Python ads up on Indeed/LinkedIn per day. Lots of senior ones though but still not enough to fill this apparent demand.

Evil Phil

You could apply for the senior roles anyway, if the applications are managed by HR then they'll ignore it. If they're managed by somebody technical then they may interview you based on your c.v. - everybody needs devs.

A bit of digging should tell you if it's HR or otherwise before you apply.

Fukuyama

Evil Phil wrote: »

You could apply for the senior roles anyway, if the applications are managed by HR then they'll ignore it. If they're managed by somebody technical then they may interview you based on your c.v. - everybody needs devs.

A bit of digging should tell you if it's HR or otherwise before you apply.

Phone interview went well and through to the technical phone interview next. I'll be using an online platform to solve algorithim problems etc... :eek: Time to study.


Quick question:

I have another phone interview on Friday. I had applied to a dev position in this company and was rejected due to lack of experience. They followed up asking me to apply for a 'Support Engineer' position which they say is mostly debugging customer issues etc... Normally I'd steer clear as (I've been told) that support is where dev careers go to die.

However this is quite a reputable company with great benefits, location etc... I'm thinking of asking is progression to a dev role possible. Or would I just be committing career suicide here?

Note: I REALLY don't see myself answering phones or something. But I would be willing to sidestep into a support role if:

a) I could get out of it in six months
b) I could study/build a portfolio during those six months

srsly78

Support is where dev careers go to die. Of course they will promise that you can move out of support but don't believe them.

Goodshape

Fukuyama wrote: »

I'm thinking of asking is progression to a dev role possible. Or would I just be committing career suicide here?

I see no harm at all in asking. In fact I think it would show initiative and that you have goals in mind – goals at that company, no less!

A technical support role leading to a more active development role is not an unusual progression, although it may well depend on the company.

Goodshape

srsly78 wrote: »

Support is where dev careers go to die. Of course they will promise that you can move out of support but don't believe them.

I think that depends on both the employee and the employer.

Talisman

Fukuyama wrote: »

Quick question:

I have another phone interview on Friday. I had applied to a dev position in this company and was rejected due to lack of experience. They followed up asking me to apply for a 'Support Engineer' position which they say is mostly debugging customer issues etc... Normally I'd steer clear as (I've been told) that support is where dev careers go to die.

However this is quite a reputable company with great benefits, location etc... I'm thinking of asking is progression to a dev role possible. Or would I just be committing career suicide here?

Note: I REALLY don't see myself answering phones or something. But I would be willing to sidestep into a support role if:

a) I could get out of it in six months
b) I could study/build a portfolio during those six months

Do you want to work for the company?

What you need from them is a career development path to move from support to development. That needs to happen before you join because otherwise they are possibly fooling you just to get a body into a seat.

Don't be meek - this is your career.

If they ask you if you have any questions ...
Find out if other employees have moved from support to development.
How many have made the transition?
What was their experience?
How long did it take?
If possible have a conversation with one of them.

Leave the company in no doubt that you have a plan for your career. If you get a sense that they don't have a plan for you beyond the support role then walk away.

Army_of_One

Fukuyama wrote: »

They followed up asking me to apply for a 'Support Engineer' position which they say is mostly debugging customer issues etc...

I've worked in both L2 and L3 roles for a MNC.

If it's L2 there will be f all dev work with some customer interaction.

The L3 job did have a bit of dev work but mostly not.

I wouldn't advise it if you wanna stay developing imho.

BTW theres a good few ex devs on my team but they all hated dev work so yeah I guess support is where devs go to die

Fukuyama

Cheers guys. So it seems my thoughts were not unfounded - support is where devs get put out to pasture.

Talisman wrote: »

Do you want to work for the company?

What you need from them is a career development path to move from support to development. That needs to happen before you join because otherwise they are possibly fooling you just to get a body into a seat.

Don't be meek - this is your career.

If they ask you if you have any questions ...
Find out if other employees have moved from support to development.
How many have made the transition?
What was their experience?
How long did it take?
If possible have a conversation with one of them.

Leave the company in no doubt that you have a plan for your career. If you get a sense that they don't have a plan for you beyond the support role then walk away.

The company is reasonably prestiious and growing fast. They're one of the companies listed here.. And I've been told that they're a good bunch to work for with great benefits, progression etc... They do say that the support role is 'unlike at other companies' but I'm still suspicious.

I think I'll take your advise - I'll try press the issue during the phone call and make it clear that I don't particularly want a support role, I want a role with THEM while I patch holes in my experience etc... and apply internally for a dev role. If they stammer or stall on that point I'll 100% give it a miss.

Evil Phil

Either way Fukuyama get on the phone and do their technical interviewthe more interviews you do the better you'll be at interviewing when a role you really want comes along.

Raging_Ninja

Goodshape wrote: »

I think that depends on both the employee and the employer.

If you stay there for more than a year doing support straight out of college, good luck trying to get anything other than support roles in the future.

And if you go from dev to support, every job you apply to they will say "this guy is obviously bad at writing code".

beauf

You can be sure that when promotional opportunities or financial incentives arise the developers will be picked above support people regardless of the expertise of the support person.

If you want to know why people avoid support that's why...

boreder

Fukuyama wrote: »

Cheers guys. So it seems my thoughts were not unfounded - support is where devs get put out to pasture.



The company is reasonably prestiious and growing fast. They're one of the companies listed here.. And I've been told that they're a good bunch to work for with great benefits, progression etc... They do say that the support role is 'unlike at other companies' but I'm still suspicious.

I think I'll take your advise - I'll try press the issue during the phone call and make it clear that I don't particularly want a support role, I want a role with THEM while I patch holes in my experience etc... and apply internally for a dev role. If they stammer or stall on that point I'll 100% give it a miss.

Get your foot in the door and see what happens.

I did a similar thing, inadvertently, that has worked out pretty well.

One thing I will say, is that if you interview for a role and show zero (or negative) interest in it, they likely won't entertain you. Recruiters care about the job they are recruiting for, and thats pretty much it. It could be a different person on a different team that recruits devs. They are metric'd on filling roles, and if you don't want the role, they won't want to bring it forward. Generally.

Get your foot in the door, get the feel of the place, excel at the role you have, then start asking questions. Be patient. You're only doing this for 2-3 years.

John_Mc

boreder wrote: »

Get your foot in the door and see what happens.

I did a similar thing, inadvertently, that has worked out pretty well.

Don't agree with that. As others have said, only do it if you like the idea of providing support, or there's a guaranteed path out of into development.

As for it being only "2-3 years". Each move should be a progression up the ladder. 2-3 years is pretty long too, especially at the start of your career