Is the anti-cyclist thing a unique Irish/British phenomenon?

mrcheez

I was in Malta recently where people warned me "don't cycle there, crazy drivers" etc. There are countless YouTube videos of so called "dangerous encounters" in Malta.

So it was with a little trepidation that I took a bike out for a spin. Malta has fairly busy roads at all hours.

First car passed me. 2m gap. "Hmm that was rather polite", I thought.

Second car, third car... 3m gaps there! "Wow".

A few buses drove patiently behind me at a distance of 10m until there was a significant gap to overtake. No beeping or revving. "Wtf is going on?!"
Even tradesmen gave me a wide berth!!


After a few days of this, I was thinking I just wasn't cycling in the areas to experience this "danger" I was warned about, so I took a 4 hour cycle one day out of the city to the suburbs. I wanted to see just how bad it gets as I couldn't believe everyone could be this nice.

There are a complete lack of cycle lanes in the country so the infrastructure isn't the best, yet in the whole 4 hour period not once did I feel threatened in any way. There were perhaps 2 cars that drove by within 1m in the entire week.

When I chatted to locals about the fact I was cycling they said that I was crazy and how would the 2m overtakes not want me to quit.

There was no antipathy toward me, or a counter like "do you go through red lights?". They were just interested in how it was such a refreshing way to get around their country and enjoy the scenery.

I'm sure people who have lived there longer have experienced worse, but the fact that what I experienced would be considered a "very good day" in Ireland, yet considered a "dangerous trip" in Malta had me thinking that the narrow passes and aggressive behaviour toward cyclists seems to be endemic to Ireland (and perhaps the UK judging by what I've heard).

I've just posted in the Animal forum about a guy walking his dog the full width of the bike lane, endangering his dog (and not to mention cyclists who don't see the dog lead in the dark!) and the responses are the usual "he has every right" and "what about all the cyclists breaking the rules?" etc

So is it just the bad weather making everyone here a git?

OnDraught

I’ve been living in Sweden and spending a good amount of time in Copenhagen where cycling is quite popular. What struck me about both places is that the motorists and cyclists very rarely share the road at all. They have so much space on their massive streets to install big cycle lanes they don’t have an issue.

In Sweden pedestrians and cyclists share a lot of these paths with no markings and it works fine because the cyclists yield to the pedestrians.

With an infrastructure like that it’s easy to see why there is no animosity there.

Lumen

Partial segregation sets unreasonable expectations on both sides.

ON BOTH SIDES :pac:

magicbastarder

in australia and the US, there's a reasonable amount of anti-cyclist sentiment too, i believe.

Chips Lovell

Speaking to people who've cycled in Australia and New Zealand, I gather the atmosphere is quite hostile/intimidating.

On the whole, I find Irish drivers to be grand, with the odd nutter/psycho. Ireland compares well with other countries I've cycled in.

gaffmaster

Maybe it's because "Bloody Cyclists" translates into something beautiful everywhere else in the world.

Hitman3000

Having been in Italy several times and driven extensively there, I can say there is a mixture of both. Asshole drivers and asshole cyclists. I'm a runner btw. I always give a minimum of 3 m to cyclists and runners.

seamus

It's a bigger thing in the Anglosphere, definitely - US, UK, Ireland, Oz & NZ. This most likely has its roots in the car as a status symbol, and the bike as a symbol of being poor. And the false notion that drivers pay for the roads they drive on.

Other regions have different reasons why cycling is more "acceptable" as a form of getting around, even for adults. The concept that bikes are children's toys that need to go in the shed when you turn 18 hasn't caught hold for other reasons.

That said, there are plenty of countries where you couldn't pay me to cycle, even if they have a less adversarial attitude to bikes. Russia and India to name but two examples. But probably everything to the East and South of Germany is probably worth reconsidering whether cycling is a good idea.

mrcheez

seamus wrote: »

It's a bigger thing in the Anglosphere, definitely - US, UK, Ireland, Oz & NZ. This most likely has its roots in the car as a status symbol, and the bike as a symbol of being poor. And the false notion that drivers pay for the roads they drive on.

Other regions have different reasons why cycling is more "acceptable" as a form of getting around, even for adults. The concept that bikes are children's toys that need to go in the shed when you turn 18 hasn't caught hold for other reasons.

That said, there are plenty of countries where you couldn't pay me to cycle, even if they have a less adversarial attitude to bikes. Russia and India to name but two examples. But probably everything to the East and South of Germany is probably worth reconsidering whether cycling is a good idea.

It might also be because of population density.

When I cycled to school in the 90s I don't recall having any close passes, or there being any negative associations with cycling. Nowadays cycling is more popular, out in the open, and encountered more frequently thus spurring on the "oh not you guys again" mentality.

Similarly in Malta, there were very few cyclists, so possibly this is why the "few" that are encountered are tolerated and perhaps a fascination

Rave.ef

https://youtu.be/9N5wibjmDA8
Has a lot to do with attitude towards cyclist

Captain Slow IRL

Is 'anti-cyclist' to infer that they are never at fault?

I cycle and drive; the amount of arsehole cyclists I encounter when I drive exceeds the amount of arsehole motorists when I cycle, by miles. There's no smoke without fire.

mrcheez

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

Is 'anti-cyclist' to infer that they are never at fault?

Nope, just a general sort of reaction to the word "cyclist" in the Irish psyche.

The example I gave earlier was of a post I put up about a guy walking his dog on the bike lane and the dog being allowed to wander freely to the other side while his leash crossed the path. The owner not caring when I questioned him about it. The post was a question about how to deal with owners mishandling pets... anyway the thread quickly became filled with "whataboutery" aimed at cyclists on pavements.

Forums on Irish news site articles about cyclists being injured/killed quickly descend into similar sort of blaming of the cyclist.

I guess I was just taken by the difference in cycling in Malta compared to cycling back in Dublin where a bus almost tried to knock me off the bike 3 days after I arrived home, yet Malta is supposedly "dangerous" to many people who clearly haven't tried cycling in Dublin city.

Macy0161

I actually think it's just a poor standard of driving. I have more inappropriate overtakes than close passes, and they're generally what scare me most - by that I mean that I mean overtakes that give plenty of space, but no way can the motorist see far enough in front to genuinely complete safely. It's luck more than judgement that nothing comes around the bend/ over the hill while they are overtaking.

There's also a complete disconnect by people of the outcomes, even witnessed on this thread. A cyclist might cost time for a motorist*, maybe even irritate them by breaking some road traffic law. A motorist can easily kill or change the life of a cyclist. There's a massive amount of false equivalence, that has already popped up in this thread.

*I don't believe this is actually true, and is just perception. I live in the wicklow mountains, on the popular cycle routes. I'm held up far more when in the car by slow motorists than I've ever been by individual or groups of cyclists. It simple doesn't register in the same way being stuck behind a sunday driver day tripper, a tractor, motorhome, trailer etc as it seems to be when it's cyclists. The former are all traffic, where as cyclists are taking over the road...

Ewan Hoosarmi

mrcheez wrote: »

Nope, just a general sort of reaction to the word "cyclist" in the Irish psyche.

The example I gave earlier was of a post I put up about a guy walking his dog on the bike lane and the dog being allowed to wander freely to the other side while his leash crossed the path. The owner not caring when I questioned him about it. The post was a question about how to deal with owners mishandling pets... anyway the thread quickly became filled with "whataboutery" aimed at cyclists on pavements.

Forums on Irish news site articles about cyclists being injured/killed quickly descend into similar sort of blaming of the cyclist.

I guess I was just taken by the difference in cycling in Malta compared to cycling back in Dublin where a bus almost tried to knock me off the bike 3 days after I arrived home, yet Malta is supposedly "dangerous" to many people who clearly haven't tried cycling in Dublin city.

Yeah, I hate that whole "but motorists this" or "but cyclists that" bullcrap. It's just a way of deflecting blame off one group or another. I'm afraid, until we can find a way around it, we are stuck with this kind of back and forward mud slinging. There are assholes on driver seats, on saddles and on feet.

It just seems that hackles are raised when one side says something about the other. The thread descends into anarchy and no honest discussion happens. Is this intentional, I wonder?

Whataboutery should be a banning offence, as should hyperbole.

Adamocovic

Not exactly linked to this question but the story reminded me of the last time I went to Amsterdam.

Of course most people know how big cycling is in Holland so it's no surprise that Amsterdam is flooded with cyclists, albeit with separate cycle paths for the most part.

I was in the car with someone and he was driving very calmly and patiently. Even when he had a green light he was cautious to pull ahead without checking and would regularly come to a stop to let any cyclist by. I commented about how it must be difficult with all the bikes, he shrugged and just said "Cyclists rule the streets here".

I know well back home there'd be plenty losing their heads over it :pac:

Rave.ef

Rave.ef wrote: »

https://youtu.be/9N5wibjmDA8
Has a lot to do with attitude towards cyclist

Actually had one like that recently, well with out the follow up. Sat behind a truck and guy came up behind me asked me why I wasn't moving when the lights changed , sat behind a left turning truck, I just looked at him pointed at left the turning artic do the talking :rolleyes:

professore

Was in Croatia a few years ago with an otherwise mild mannered Croatian work colleague who cursed and swore at every cyclist he passed. So not just Ireland/UK thing. They have small crappy roads like us, maybe that has something to do with it.

murf

mrcheez wrote: »

It might also be because of population density.

When I cycled to school in the 90s I don't recall having any close passes, or there being any negative associations with cycling. Nowadays cycling is more popular, out in the open, and encountered more frequently thus spurring on the "oh not you guys again" mentality.

Similarly in Malta, there were very few cyclists, so possibly this is why the "few" that are encountered are tolerated and perhaps a fascination

Back in the 90's there were almost exactly half as many vehicles on the roads as today, so you were encountering half as many cars etc. Cycling was more popular back then, lots kids in my school cycled, walked or took the bus and it was seen as a normal thing to do. Now, being driven is normal. That's the key difference I'd think.

Macy0161

Was in the car today (injury, as these are the days I generally try and cycle as it's mayhem). A lot of motorists seem to have a bee in their bonnet about lack of enforcement for bikes - just a few of what I witnessed this morning.... Cars in Bus Lanes, Cars in mandatory cycle lanes, cars blocking yellow boxes, cars taking illegal right turns, cars driving down hatch markings, speeding, cars breaking red lights (both at junctions and pedestrian crossings). I was actually in well before 8, so before the worst of it I imagine. That's just the concious decisions, not mentioning those with no lights, dlr lights, lights out, and seemingly broken indicators.

The narrative many motorists like to pedal (?) is that because of NCT/ Reg Plates/ Licence they are somehow subject to more enforcement than cyclists. That's clearly bollox, but it's in the psyche of many motorists and really feeds the anti-cyclist stuff when they talk about cyclist behaviour.

Ewan Hoosarmi

Macy0161 wrote: »

Was in the car today (injury, as these are the days I generally try and cycle as it's mayhem). A lot of motorists seem to have a bee in their bonnet about lack of enforcement for bikes - just a few of what I witnessed this morning.... Cars in Bus Lanes, Cars in mandatory cycle lanes, cars blocking yellow boxes, cars taking illegal right turns, cars driving down hatch markings, speeding, cars breaking red lights (both at junctions and pedestrian crossings). I was actually in well before 8, so before the worst of it I imagine. That's just the concious decisions, not mentioning those with no lights, dlr lights, lights out, and seemingly broken indicators.

The narrative many motorists like to pedal (?) is that because of NCT/ Reg Plates/ Licence they are somehow subject to more enforcement than cyclists. That's clearly bollox, but it's in the psyche of many motorists and really feeds the anti-cyclist stuff when they talk about cyclist behaviour.

So, you only saw cars doing things wrong? :rolleyes:

Macy0161

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

So, you only saw cars doing things wrong? :rolleyes:

This morning, on the route I took yes. All bikes had lights, and I didn't see any other offences, but way to miss my point...

Edit - Actually on reflection, thanks for confirming my point!

seamus

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

So, you only saw cars doing things wrong? :rolleyes:

Actually, as someone who drove in this morning, that was my experience this morning too. I saw a couple of cyclists, all of whom had lights, none of whom I obeserved breaking the law. I saw lots of cars breaking lights, blocking junctions, deliberately using the wrong lanes, taking illegal turns, etc.

This is the problem with, "You know what I saw today...." anecdotes. They are entirely subjective and are completely useless as a measure of the behaviour of any complete group of road users.

RGS

Every day there are motorist and cyclists breaking the rules of the road.
Everyone has to accept this basic premise.
Today was a day for blatant disregard of the rules of the road,

Bus lanes became normal road lanes--( the malahide road bus lane at Maypark was a car park full of private cars)

Every motorist knew the gardai would not be out enforcing any road traffic rules on a morning like this so using the bus lane was a free run.

The same applied to cyclists who wished to brake the rules.

Enforcement of the existing rules is essential.

Macy0161

RGS wrote: »

Every day there are motorist and cyclists breaking the rules of the road.
Everyone has to accept this basic premise.

....

Enforcement of the existing rules is essential.

Yes, I 100% agree. My point in the context of this thread is that a lot of motorists have the perception that enforcement happens to them, and doesn't to cyclists. This feeds the negativity. My point is that there is feck all enforcement for anyone.

Any article/ section about cycling that tries to address motorist behaviour is followed by loads of comments/ texts about cyclist behaviour. It's false equivalence because of the potential consequences on others, but also displays a real disconnect as to actual enforcement of the rules of the road for all road users, including motorists.

A few random speed vans and the ability to issue points on a licence does not actually equal a strict enforcement regime!

Emme

I visited Budapest a few months ago and did a cycle tour while I was there. There are segregated bike lanes along Andrássy út but it's tight enough in some other places. Despite this nearly all drivers were polite and I felt much safer there than I do in Dublin. The Hungarian guide (whose boyfriend is from Limerick) was amazed because I was so cautious at the start of the cycle despite being an experienced cyclist. I was the only Irish person in the group. I told her to ask her boyfriend about cycling in Ireland! The only serious hassle I got was when a taxi driver roared in my face but we all got a great laugh out of that. I told her that made me feel at home

Lambay island

murf wrote: »

Back in the 90's there were almost exactly half as many vehicles on the roads as today, so you were encountering half as many cars etc. Cycling was more popular back then, lots kids in my school cycled, walked or took the bus and it was seen as a normal thing to do. Now, being driven is normal. That's the key difference I'd think.

I think you are spot on. I cycled everyday to school in the 90's from the age of 12 onwards and never remember experiencing any issues whatsoever.You actually had to get in early to try and get a spot in the bike shed, it was so packed. Very few people got dropped to school.

I didn't cycle from 2000 to approx 2010 so cant judge much on that period. I regret that, as I became overweight and unhealthy for that period. Took it back up around 2010, lost a couple of stone in a few months and despite the hostility and dangers you see in present day Dublin, I cant see myself ever not commuting by bike again. To see the amount of teenagers that get dropped to school gates these days is such a poor reflection of our society. The added fact that these parents constantly block cycle paths when pulling in makes it so dangerous and off putting for the kids who try/want to cycle.

guanciale

In anglo-saxon countries it appears that cars demknate the transport debate more than in other western democracies. The car lobby is strong and powerful.
Also anglo saxon economies are really poor at planning and strategy - the UK, US and Ireland lag well behind many EU nations in terms of overall infrastructure.

In Ireland presently, many national roads are operating well beyond peak capacity.

Combination of poor incrastructure, crowded roads (more cars and bikes) is contributing to a greater number of incidents. This is bourne out in insurance statistics on claims frequency.
The issue for us cyclists is that the impact of an incident is greater.

tomasrojo

Ireland is many things, but it's not "anglo-saxon". In fact, the UK isn't really anglo-saxon either.

(I'm aware the term has currency in Spain and other countries.)

tomasrojo

I think Ireland is ok overall. There certainly are strident voices in the media who belittle and blame people who get about by bike, but I think I know most of them by name, so there's a small number of repeat offenders, and plenty of mild offenders, I think.

mrcheez

tomasrojo wrote: »

There certainly are strident voices in the media who belittle and blame people who get about by bike, but I think I know most of them by name

You know everyone by name in the Animal & Pet Issues forum, or the Motoring forum? Or posting comments on various newspaper sites, or driving for Dublin Bus, or driving a taxi, or... ?

Tombo2001

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

Is 'anti-cyclist' to infer that they are never at fault?

I cycle and drive; the amount of arsehole cyclists I encounter when I drive exceeds the amount of arsehole motorists when I cycle, by miles. There's no smoke without fire.

Funny enough because I cycle and drive also.

And I have no clue what you are talking about.

As a cyclist I frequently encounter drivers who take the option not to see me.

As a driver, I cant remember one incident in the past ten years where I could say 'that cyclist did something to annoy me'.