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Hospital consultants - milking the system for their own benefit!
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The total cost of training a person from leaving cert through medicine to graduate is €125,000. Accordimg to the Herald on August 17, 2012. Apparently Senator Colm Burke FG did a study.
The study in question surveyed students plans to stay in Ireland; it did not calculate the cost of training, FYI.
https://www.herald.ie/news/costs-125k-to-train-our-doctors-28015422.html
A lot of exorbitant figures are bandied about when talking about this - I've heard up to 200k total. NOBODY has ever itemized this fictional cost. Medical students mostly wander around hospital wards or get tutorials from unpaid junior doctors. Where on Earth does the 200k go? I think the 9k figure is closer to the truth regarding the actual cost price. That's not to say international and graduate-entry students don't pay significantly more than that due to the market value of a medical education.0 -
The total cost of training a person from leaving cert through medicine to graduate is €125,000. Accordimg to the Herald on August 17, 2012. Apparently Senator Colm Burke FG did a study.
How did you arrive at a figure of €8,900?
I accept your point about appallimg, illegal and inhumane working conditions.
The Herald article is incorrect and I'm unable to find any study by Colm Burke as to how he arrived to those figures.
To be clear, the exchequer does not fund medicine specifically. The universities receive a set block grant for all their students and then they redistribute that internally to their schools according to their needs.
UCD lists the tuition fee for medicine as 8900 so this is what they charge EU residents (but not citizens) and mature students in lieu of the HEA grant as it represents the total cost of tuition.
The only official publication on the cost of medical education is the Fottrell report which you can read on the Dept. of Education's website here. Page 90 deals with funding and shows that 19.6% of medical school funding comes from the exchequer, 26.5% comes from undergraduate fees and 53.9% comes from non-EU fees.
That dependence on non-exchequer funding is even larger today for several reasons as this report is from before 2008:
1) Exchequer funding (HEA grant) fell dramatically during the recession
2) Undergraduate fees increased (at the time of this report they were <1000 euro)
3) No. of non-EU places has more than doubled
4) Graduate-entry Medicine wasn't introduced until 2008 and now accounts for 42% of Irish medical graduates who are entirely self-funding.0 -
notsoyoungwan wrote: »Taxpayers make up the shortfall for all college courses.
Your second point applies equally to other graduates such as engineers, lawyers etc
You haven’t mentioned the post-graduate training that doctors do, mostly at their own expense. After my basic medical degree, I completed professional exams- the fees for these were paid for me, the training courses needed to pass we’re not paid. I obtained two more degrees, 4 diplomas and 2 certificates, all paid for out of my own pocket and done mostly in my own time, with me often taking annual leave to attend college days. I don’t know of any other profession that undergo such extensive post-graduate study and training, and certainly not at their own cost.
But once you resort to such petty insults as “gouging the taxpayer”, I’m out. I simply couldn’t be bothered engaging further with someone who engages at that level. Others here may have more patience than me!
Taxpayers make up the shortfall for other courses - agreed.
Accountant, solicitors, engineers all do extra study - Continuing Professional Development - not to the same extent as medics. Are those expenses tax-allowable? It might be some consolation if they were
You agree medics are well paid. Paying them more is unjustified in my opinion. They are well paid in absolute terms in Ireland and according to the OECD against their. Nothing I have seen here has changed that opinion.
Thank you for your patience.0 -
Fair points in the report - Irish doctors are on €50,000 after adjustment for tax and purchasing power. But the IMO is a lobbying organisation. Wheres the comparison against the rest of the world?
Here are some independent figures for North American salaries. They put most Irish consultants in the halfpenny place. Note also that there is a significantly shorter training to achieve 'consultant' level salaries in these places - as little as 2 years for family medicine, for example. Very few 10th year surgical SpRs over there, I imagine.
USA: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/compensation-2017-overview-6008547#1
Canada: https://secure.cihi.ca/free_products/Summary_Report_2015_EN.pdf0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »The Herald article is incorrect and I'm unable to find any study by Colm Burke as to how he arrived to those figures.
To be clear, the exchequer does not fund medicine specifically. The universities receive a set block grant for all their students and then they redistribute that internally to their schools according to their needs.
UCD lists the tuition fee for medicine as 8900 so this is what they charge EU residents (but not citizens) and mature students in lieu of the HEA grant as it represents the total cost of tuition.
The only official publication on the cost of medical education is the Fottrell report which you can read on the Dept. of Education's website here. Page 90 deals with funding and shows that 19.6% of medical school funding comes from the exchequer, 26.5% comes from undergraduate fees and 53.9% comes from non-EU fees.
That dependence on non-exchequer funding is even larger today for several reasons as this report is from before 2008:
1) Exchequer funding (HEA grant) fell dramatically during the recession
2) Undergraduate fees increased (at the time of this report they were <1000 euro)
3) No. of non-EU places has more than doubled
4) Graduate-entry Medicine wasn't introduced until 2008 and now accounts for 42% of Irish medical graduates who are entirely self-funding.
The economic value of a year in med school is €14,000. Thats what people pay in post grad colleges. University fees are €3,000. Therefore the economic subsidy is €11,000 - do you agree with this logic? All figures are per year so 5 years = €55,000.
Edit - just re-read your post. €8,900 is the undergrad fee, Irishstudents pay €3,000 so subsidy is €5,900 per year - at last some facts.0 -
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They are well paid in absolute terms in Ireland and according to the OECD
One final point, Ireland is not really competing with most of the countries in the OECD for Irish graduates as most would be unable to work through a foreign language. I wouldn't be surprised if the average consultant salary in Poland and Slovenia is lower than Ireland, but comparison with the salary of other English-speaking countries is the most relevant with regard to market forces.0 -
Here are some independent figures for North American salaries. They put most Irish consultants in the halfpenny place. Note also that there is a significantly shorter training to achieve 'consultant' level salaries in these places - as little as 2 years for family medicine, for example. Very few 10th year surgical SpRs over there, I imagine.
USA: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/compensation-2017-overview-6008547#1
Canada: https://secure.cihi.ca/free_products/Summary_Report_2015_EN.pdf
I cant access the USA figures as they are subscriber only.
The Canadian figures are eye watering - mind one of your colleagues quoted an IMO study that shows that Irish doctors while paid less than Canadian doctors, they are not too far behind when adjusted for tax and purchasing power.0 -
One final point, Ireland is not really competing with most of the countries in the OECD for Irish graduates as most would be unable to work through a foreign language. I wouldn't be surprised if the average consultant salary in Poland and Slovenia is lower than Ireland, but comparison with the salary of other English-speaking countries is the most relevant with regard to market forces.
Fair points. But even the IMO failed to demostrate that the Irish docs are a million miles from UK, Canada etc.
If working conditions here were better I think things would change. Therefore hire more docs to reduce working hours but hold the salary levels at current levels.0 -
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If working conditions here were better I think things would change. Therefore hire more docs to reduce working hours but hold the salary levels at current levels.
I don't disagree with that, I just think it's impossible to convince that many doctors to work here. There aren't hundreds of unemployed doctors checking the classifieds every morning. And most Irish people don't want to do the training themselves.0 -
I don't disagree with that, I just think it's impossible to convince that many doctors to work here. There aren't hundreds of unemployed doctors checking the classifieds every morning. And most Irish people don't want to do the training themselves.
Hmm. Id like to start telling you how many medics I know that have gone overseas and returned, refuse to do the savage overtime where they can avoid it, computer science grads that went into medicine and so on and so on. But that reduces my arguments to "duirt bean liomsa gur duirt bean eile" war stories.
I think the situation will resolve itself but it will take time. I jut dont think raising salaries on its own will fix things.0 -
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That pretty much argues your case for you alright N. If it was such a cushy number to work here you'd have queues out the door on those unfilled positions. Instead what queue exists is usually heading for the nearest airport. Or people figure have a better work/life balance and go the GP route, or some other medical area where the stresses are less.notsoyoungwan wrote: »I love the “Doctors in Ireland are well paid compared to other countries” argument. It’s almost like we don’t have 200 or so consultant posts either unfilled or filled in a temporary capacity, or that we aren’t advertising posts and getting no applicants,
Now maybe it was the specialities involved but from the consultants I've known down the years they earned their money. Every cent. The working hours were often horrendous, the conditions could be variable, the responsibility enormous and the personal study to keep up with a rapidly changing science a constant. The hit to their private lives, particularly for women who wanted to have families wasn't small either. For that matter it wasn't exactly all roses for men with young families either. If I could earn the same or even less, but especially more, but with better working conditions and more life for me and mine in another country* I'd be lying through my teeth if I said I wouldn't be seriously tempted.
There can be this idea that large compared to average wages are somehow "unfair". The fact is, yes some careers can be "overpaid" and some are certainly "underpaid", but in the majority of cases in private or public industries as an employee people get paid more because they have to deal with more crap, for longer hours and with more responsibility.
*I'd personally not compare us to the American medical system. It's an outlier in the Anglosphere. Though seriously tempting for someone with the qualifications and experience.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The economic value of a year in med school is €14,000. Thats what people pay in post grad colleges. University fees are €3,000. Therefore the economic subsidy is €11,000 - do you agree with this logic? All figures are per year so 5 years = €55,000.
Edit - just re-read your post. €8,900 is the undergrad fee, Irishstudents pay €3,000 so subsidy is €5,900 per year - at last some facts.
I don't agree with the logic because it has no relevance to your point on what the exchequer pays to train medics. The difference between the student contribution and tuition cost is 5900 yes, but that 5900 is majority covered by the fees international students pay not the exchequer (As per the Fottrell report).0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »I don't agree with the logic because it has no relevance to your point on what the exchequer pays to train medics. The difference between the student contribution and tuition cost is 5900 yes, but that 5900 is majority covered by the fees international students pay not the exchequer (As per the Fottrell report).
Fair point. Now, how much does it actually cost to run a medical school, divide that by the number of students. Then you have the answer. Hint - its a damn sight more than€3,000 per year.
Now take say Arts students and do the same exercise. Hint - €3,000 paid by the student every year makes good inroads into the cost of running the courses.0 -
Why don't we just cut out the middle section and get to the conclusion? Lets just bin the medical education system wholesale, and then import cheap labour from elsewhere.
Everything else is just playing games in the meantime.0 -
Answered in the Fottrell trell report- the exchequer covers 20% of medical school funding. I would doubt there's any other discipline that takes less taxpayer funds as no other discipline is subsidised by non-EU fees to the same extent as medicineFair point. Now, how much does it actually cost to run a medical school, divide that by the number of students. Then you have the answer. Hint - its a damn sight more than€3,000 per year.
Now take say Arts students and do the same exercise. Hint - €3,000 paid by the student every year makes good inroads into the cost of running the courses.0 -
Not all college students courses are worth €14,000 in fees -are they? Whereas US /Canadian students will pay that for a medical course. So the shortfall is €11,000 per year.
Are you suggesting that:
a) everyone should pay the actual cost of their degree (arts, science, teaching, law, vet, etc.)?
b) only doctors should pay the actual cost of their degree?
c) doctors should not pay directly for their degree but should accept a lower wage than they currently receive?
or
d) all degrees should be given a market value and fees charged accordingly, i.e. if a US student is willing to pay €50k per year then that is what EU students pay also?
These are all different arguments and it's not clear which (if any) you are arguing for.See "Irish hospital consultants among worlds best paid, OECD finds" in the Irish Times on 8th July 2015. The study also states "Irish health professionals are well paid by unternational standards".
If you are going by this 1 Irish Times article then I can see why you would think that. As others have pointed out, that study was particularly flawed as for different countries it included/excluded a mix of gross income, net income, qualified specialists, trainees, base salaries, overtime, informal payments, etc. It is also a very crude measure when you have very different length of training, e.g. a specialty in 1 country may take 3 years but in Ireland it would be 12! So trainees in Ireland may spend almost a decade longer on lower pay than in other countries.
If we look at the 2017 OECD figures, which are a bit more accurate, they give income relative to the average national wage (ANW). Comparing 29 OECD countries, it shows GPs in Ireland earn 2.4 times ANW, which is slightly less than the OECD average. Looking at "specialists" Irish consultants are on 3.3 times ANW, which is slightly above the OECD average of 2.95, but to put it in context Belgium is 6.0, Australia is 3.9, UK is 3.4, Germany is 3.5, Netherlands is 3.4, so we are not really outliers. This doesn't even include USA & Canada, 2 of the main destinations for Irish doctors, where the ratio is even higher.
Ireland also has fewer doctors (2.9 per 1,000 population) than the OECD35 average (3.4 per 1,000 population), as well as a well-documented recruitment crisis. We are one of the few OECD countries that has not significantly increased doctor-patient ratios since 2000. Market economics dictates that in this situation wages should be going up rather than down...Most doctors leave college pretty debt-free
What is the source for this?0 -
Are you suggesting that:
a) everyone should pay the actual cost of their degree (arts, science, teaching, law, vet, etc.)?
b) only doctors should pay the actual cost of their degree?
c) doctors should not pay directly for their degree but should accept a lower wage than they currently receive?
or
d) all degrees should be given a market value and fees charged accordingly, i.e. if a US student is willing to pay €50k per year then that is what EU students pay also?
These are all different arguments and it's not clear which (if any) you are arguing for.
/quote]
I'm on the mobile so I chunked down my responses.
Well I'm arguing is that it costs a lot more to educate a doctor that it costs to put someone through an arts degree. I think that's agreed.
Discussion is roughly how much extra it cost to put a doctor through undergraduate medical school per annum. I'm suggesting that if an overseas candidates will pay €14,000 per annum to go to postgraduate medical school, then it could be argued that the Irish student in an undergraduate course who is paying €3,000 per annum is being subsidised to the tune of €11,000.
That's it - I'm not suggesting anyone actually pay. Only veterinary students cost more to train.0 -
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Nobody discredited the Irish Times or the OECD.
If you are going by this 1 Irish Times article then I can see why you would think that. As others have pointed out, that study was particularly flawed as for different countries it included/excluded a mix of gross income, net income, qualified specialists, trainees, base salaries, overtime, informal payments, etc. It is also a very crude measure when you have very different length of training, e.g. a specialty in 1 country may take 3 years but in Ireland it would be 12! So trainees in Ireland may spend almost a decade longer on lower pay than in other countries.
If we look at the 2017 OECD figures, which are a bit more accurate, they give income relative to the average national wage (ANW). Comparing 29 OECD countries, it shows GPs in Ireland earn 2.4 times ANW, which is slightly less than the OECD average. Looking at "specialists" Irish consultants are on 3.3 times ANW, which is slightly above the OECD average of 2.95, but to put it in context Belgium is 6.0, Australia is 3.9, UK is 3.4, Germany is 3.5, Netherlands is 3.4, so we are not really outliers. This doesn't even include USA & Canada, 2 of the main destinations for Irish doctors, where the ratio is even higher.
Ireland also has fewer doctors (2.9 per 1,000 population) than the OECD35 average (3.4 per 1,000 population), as well as a well-documented recruitment crisis. We are one of the few OECD countries that has not significantly increased doctor-patient ratios since 2000. Market economics dictates that in this situation wages should be going up rather than down...
if you think Anyone is going to believe you , a random poster on an Internet discussion board above the Irish Times or the OECD you're very much mistaken.
I standby my comment that most undergraduate medical students leave college in debt free - after all, all they have is the expense of their 3000 Euro fee each year plus their living expenses. People going to postgraduate medical schools are probably in a different situation.0 -
Nobody discredited the Irish Times or the OECD.
if you think Anyone is going to believe you , a random poster on an Internet discussion board above the Irish Times or the OECD you're very much mistaken.
I standby my comment that most undergraduate medical students leave college in debt free - after all, all they have is the expense of their 3000 Euro fee each year plus their living expenses. People going to postgraduate medical schools are probably in a different situation.
42% of Irish medical graduates are graduate-entry and pay 60,000 and most finance it with a hefty 93k loan so you are incorrect. 10% of undergraduate places are mature-entry and pay 54,000.
The poster your quoting has actually cited the OECD yet you cite the Herald so I know who I'll believe0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »42% of Irish medical graduates are graduate-entry and pay 60,000 and most finance it with a hefty 93k loan so you are incorrect. 10% of undergraduate places are mature-entry and pay 54,000.
The poster your quoting has actually cited the OECD yet you cite the Herald so I know who I'll believe
I'm not referring to post graduate student. I'm well aware that most postgraduates spend upwards of 60,000 just on fees alone. The central fact is it cost a lot more to train a medical student that does an arts student and yet half of all final year medical student's say they intend to move overseas as soon as possible. Nobody is blaming them why don't we just shut the medical schools all together except for overseas candidates.
You are correct I quoted the evening Herald, but I also quoted the Irish Times go back through the posts0 -
at least they are guaranteed a job after qualifying
maybe thats why there is such competition for entry to the courses?
meanwhile, teachers spend a lot of money getting qualified and then are unable to secure full time jobs
maybe it is why the demand for teacher training is dropping rapidly?0 -
I'm not referring to post graduate student. I'm well aware that most postgraduates spend upwards of 60,000 just on fees alone. The central fact is it cost a lot more to train a medical student that does an arts student and yet half of all final year medical student's say they intend to move overseas as soon as possible. Nobody is blaming them why don't we just shut the medical schools all together except for overseas candidates.
It costs 9000 to train a medical student. Many business courses cost ~6k in tuition. As I have shown (and backed up with information from the dept. of education), the government pays 19% of that tuition cost. It ends up costing the exchequer less to train a medic than it does to educate a business student because medical schools are significantly better financed by non-EU fees than any other subject.0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »It costs 9000 to train a medical student. Many business courses cost ~6k in tuition. As I have shown (and backed up with information from the dept. of education), the government pays 19% of that tuition cost. It ends up costing the exchequer less to train a medic than it does to educate a business student because medical schools are significantly better financed by non-EU fees than any other subject.
He just doesn't get it. He doesn't get that regardless of the shortfall, the official report quoted above shows that the Government pays 20% of it.
He doesn't get that universities get central funding and finance courses as they see fit.
He doesn't get that in a free Western society, either the Goverment funds our training completely (including IMC registration, MRCPI or equivalent, ACLS/APLS etc) and gets us to sign a contract committing to stay for X number of years, or else it lets a free market do it's job.
He doesn't get it. Or more likely chooses not to because of his own prejudices. What's the point in trying to debate further?0 -
Nobody discredited the Irish Times or the OECD.
if you think Anyone is going to believe you , a random poster on an Internet discussion board above the Irish Times or the OECD you're very much mistaken.
I standby my comment that most undergraduate medical students leave college in debt free - after all, all they have is the expense of their 3000 Euro fee each year plus their living expenses. People going to postgraduate medical schools are probably in a different situation.
It's not about discrediting any source, it's about understanding the nuances and the complexity of the data.
You referred to an Irish Times article which is a journalist's interpretation of a complex OECD report from 2015. I am indeed a random, anonymous poster, but the November 2017 OECD report that backs up exactly what I said and which contradicts your claims is freely available here: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2017/remuneration-of-doctors-general-practitioners-and-specialists_health_glance-2017-55-en
Saying that you stand by a comment without a source is not a valid argument. If you make a statement then it's up to you to provide evidence for it.
I've commented here not to convince you personally but rather for other readers who may be interested in this and would like to get the full picture, rather than uninformed opinion.0 -
I have stated that an Irish undergraduate pays €3,000 in fees per year - unless they qualify for a grant. Thats the evidence.It's not about discrediting any source, it's about understanding the nuances and the complexity of the data.
You referred to an Irish Times article which is a journalist's interpretation of a complex OECD report from 2015. I am indeed a random, anonymous poster, but the November 2017 OECD report that backs up exactly what I said and which contradicts your claims is freely available here: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2017/remuneration-of-doctors-general-practitioners-and-specialists_health_glance-2017-55-en
Saying that you stand by a comment without a source is not a valid argument. If you make a statement then it's up to you to provide evidence for it.
I've commented here not to convince you personally but rather for other readers who may be interested in this and would like to get the full picture, rather than uninformed opinion.0 -
It's not about discrediting any source, it's about understanding the nuances and the complexity of the data.
You referred to an Irish Times article which is a journalist's interpretation of a complex OECD report from 2015. I am indeed a random, anonymous poster, but the November 2017 OECD report that backs up exactly what I said and which contradicts your claims is freely available here: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2017/remuneration-of-doctors-general-practitioners-and-specialists_health_glance-2017-55-en
Saying that you stand by a comment without a source is not a valid argument. If you make a statement then it's up to you to provide evidence for it.
I've commented here not to convince you personally but rather for other readers who may be interested in this and would like to get the full picture, rather than uninformed opinion.
You haven't discrecited anything by a few lines in a discussion board. Where is the analysis of the 2017 report? Honestly this is beginning to wear thin.
Just because you say something it does not make it so. Do you not realise that? And no matter how many people jump in here to state that its cheap to train doctors - newsflash - it is not.0 -
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You haven't discrecited anything by a few lines in a discussion board. Where is the analysis of the 2017 report? Honestly this is beginning to wear thin.
Just because you say something it does not make it so. Do you not realise that? And no matter how many people jump in here to state that its cheap to train doctors - newsflash - it is not.
No - it's not. However, the State only pays 25% of what is approximately 12,000-14,000 a year. In fact, as a medical student I matched what the State contributed (over 3,000 per year in fees).
That Report quoted earlier in the thread states it in black and white.
This is going to be extremely difficult for you to process - you, as a taxpayer (which I hope you are), did not pay a huge amount more for my medical education than many other courses. In fact, I have more than paid my fees back via the higher rate of tax.
Should we compare tax bills? If you see the amount of tax I have paid since I graduated, enough to pay for several medical students, will you at last accept reality?0 -
laserlad2010 wrote: »No - it's not. However, the State only pays 25% of what is approximately 12,000-14,000 a year. In fact, as a medical student I matched what the State contributed (over 3,000 per year in fees).
That Report quoted earlier in the thread states it in black and white.
This is going to be extremely difficult for you to process - you, as a taxpayer (which I hope you are), did not pay a huge amount more for my medical education than many other courses. In fact, I have more than paid my fees back via the higher rate of tax.
Should we compare tax bills? If you see the amount of tax I have paid since I graduated, enough to pay for several medical students, will you at last accept reality?
Thats great, thanks for confirming that the cost of educating a medical student is in fact €14,000 per annum.
I never stated that I paid it, or that the taxpayer paid it - I couldnt give a monkeys who pays for it.
The fact that you have paid income tax on earnings is Ireland is entirely irrelevant - you do understand that?
One last time - please point to where a reputable source discredited the OECD study from 2015? If you can then we can move on from that.0 -
I have stated that an Irish undergraduate pays €3,000 in fees per year - unless they qualify for a grant. Thats the evidence.
That's an argument, it's not evidence. You made a claim about the levels of debt that doctors graduate with where are those figures? College fees are not the only expenses that students have. You made the claim re: debt, please provide your evidence.You haven't discrecited anything by a few lines in a discussion board. Where is the analysis of the 2017 report? Honestly this is beginning to wear thin.
The data and analysis are in the report and on the OECD website. It's surely better to read the primary source rather than a 2nd-hand analysis from a paper.Just because you say something it does not make it so. Do you not realise that? And no matter how many people jump in here to state that its cheap to train doctors - newsflash - it is not.
We're all anonymous, random posters, as you said before, but I've provided evidence, as have several others. You have not. So your statement applies more to you than any other poster.One last time - please point to where a reputable source discredited the OECD study from 2015? If you can then we can move on from that.
The 2017 OECD report linked above.0 -
That's an argument, it's not evidence. You made a claim about the levels of debt that doctors graduate with where are those figures? College fees are not the only expenses that students have. You made the claim re: debt, please provide your evidence.
The data and analysis are in the report and on the OECD website. It's surely better to read the primary source rather than a 2nd-hand analysis from a paper.
We're all anonymous, random posters, as you said before, but I've provided evidence, as have several others. You have not. So your statement applies more to you than any other poster.
There is no need for evidence - Undergraduate Medical Students pay €3,000 per year in fees. This cohort forms the majority of the students who qualify in the Republic of Ireland.
The data and evidence may wel lbe in the OECD report - once again I asked you to produce analysis apart from your own - and you cant.0 -
There is no need for evidence - Undergraduate Medical Students pay €3,000 per year in fees. This cohort forms the majority of the students who qualify in the Republic of Ireland.
But you said previously:Most doctors leave college pretty debt-free
Where is the evidence that doctors leave college with low debt? You said yourself they pay at least €3,000 per year in fees... and college fees are only a part of the picture. There are many other expenses to consider. Where are your numbers on this to back up your claim?The data and evidence may wel lbe in the OECD report - once again I asked you to produce analysis apart from your own - and you cant.
I can't find any analysis other than the OECD's own report. Do we even need one when we can see the numbers very clearly in the report?
Where is the analysis of the 2015 report though? The Irish Times article wasn't an analysis, it just duplicated what was in the 2015 OECD report.0 -
I have stated the facts.But you said previously:
Where is the evidence that doctors leave college with low debt? You said yourself they pay at least €3,000 per year in fees... and college fees are only a part of the picture. There are many other expenses to consider. Where are your numbers on this to back up your claim?
I can't find any analysis other than the OECD's own report. Do we even need one when we can see the numbers very clearly in the report?
Where is the analysis of the 2015 report though? The Irish Times article wasn't an analysis, it just duplicated what was in the 2015 OECD report.
There is nothing to back up your opinion that the 2015 OECD report is discredited - if there was you would have found it by now.
The Irish Times ran an opinion article on the 2015 OECD report stating that Medical Consultants in Ireland were overpaid relative to their colleagues in other developed countries. Nothing you have pointed to has disproven that. It's not up to me to look for something to back up what you assert.0 -
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I have stated the facts.
There is nothing to back up your opinion that the 2015 OECD report is discredited - if there was you would have found it by now.
The Irish Times ran an opinion article on the 2015 OECD report stating that Medical Consultants in Ireland were overpaid relative to their colleagues in other developed countries. Nothing you have pointed to has disproven that. It's not up to me to look for something to back up what you assert.
It's confirmed then that you don't have any figures on doctor debt, so we can retire that discussion.
For anyone interested, the Irish Times article mentioned above is here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-world-s-best-paid-oecd-finds-1.2276783
It's not an opinion piece or an analysis - it's a report on the contents of the OECD report with no added commentary. For example, the author Paul Cullen states: "The Irish Hospital Consultants Association says the OECD data has many inconsistencies and distortions. It says salary figures for some countries are gross, while others are net. Supplements paid to consultants in the UK are not included, while no data is provided for popular destinations for Irish doctors such as Canada." Cullen adds no comment on this, he just reports verbatim.
Here is a letter in the same paper from a consultant criticising the report: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/oecd-report-and-reality-of-doctors-pay-1.2280736
The 2017 OECD report is freely available and quite clearly shows that doctors in Ireland are underpaid relative to many other EU countries.0 -
The Irish Hospital Consultants Association is not a credible source of opinion in this matter - they are a lobbying group.It's confirmed then that you don't have any figures on doctor debt, so we can retire that discussion.
For anyone interested, the Irish Times article mentioned above is here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-world-s-best-paid-oecd-finds-1.2276783
It's not an opinion piece or an analysis - it's a report on the contents of the OECD report with no added commentary. For example, the author Paul Cullen states: "The Irish Hospital Consultants Association says the OECD data has many inconsistencies and distortions. It says salary figures for some countries are gross, while others are net. Supplements paid to consultants in the UK are not included, while no data is provided for popular destinations for Irish doctors such as Canada." Cullen adds no comment on this, he just reports verbatim.
Here is a letter in the same paper from a consultant criticising the report: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/oecd-report-and-reality-of-doctors-pay-1.2280736
The 2017 OECD report is freely available and quite clearly shows that doctors in Ireland are underpaid relative to many other EU countries.
A letter to the Irish Times by a consultant does not discredit an OECD report. He is an interested party and therefore has no standing.
Ill come back to the issue of student debt when I have time - I hope you have more than opinions from medical consultants and lobby groups when I return.0 -
The Irish Hospital Consultants Association is not a credible source of opinion in this matter - they are a lobbying group.
A letter to the Irish Times by a consultant does not discredit an OECD report. He is an interested party and therefore has no standing.
Ill come back to the issue of student debt when I have time - I hope you have more than opinions from medical consultants and lobby groups when I return.
Of course they are interested parties - the point is that those are actual critiques and analysis. What you offered is an article from the Irish Times which is neither an opinion piece nor an analysis, it is just quoting pieces of the OECD report and not adding anything new.0 -
Of course they are interested parties - the point is that those are actual critiques and analysis. What you offered is an article from the Irish Times which is neither an opinion piece nor an analysis, it is just quoting pieces of the OECD report and not adding anything new.
He appears to be going around in circles.0
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