Guess what Mad_Lad got this time?

slave1

metricspaces wrote: »

Won't other manufacturers be following Hyundai\KIA over next 3 years with 300+ and 400+ range?

They will but I can't see the prices coming down, and I can't see supply being over demand so prices will stay high and therefore out of reach of the ordinary Joe Soap, when they do start to drop we'll probably have our €10k new car incentive removed and the prices will go back up again.
I hope I'm wrong on all the above BTW, I'm a one car EV house and just gagging to go to two car EV but only with proper infrastructure and more friendly (probably second hand) pricing….hence more like 13years than 3.
Pricing will probably work itself out ahead of infrastructure

KCross

metricspaces wrote: »

I know everyone says "look at how older EV's are holding their value". But I think the 300+ and 400+ range cars will dramatically changes the market, it'll make <200km range cars extremely unattractive. This is based on nothing but a feeling, so I could be very wrong.

The way the manufacturers have generally worked so far is that the longer range versions are more expensive, hence no negative effect on previous lower range EV's. I think you are assuming that a 400km EV can/will be bought for the same price as a 200km EV today.... that hasnt happened to date.

e.g. A Leaf 40kWh is more expensive than what a Leaf 30kWh was when they stopped making them. The Leaf 62kWh is going to be ~€6k more than the Leaf 40kWh.

Likewise with Niro EV.... 39kWh is €35500. The 64kWh is going to be ~€40k.


And everyone has their breaking point in relation to budget so eventhough a <200km EV might be unattractive to an individual, if the budget cant stretch to spending €35k-€45k then they have to be realistic and buy that <200km EV or stick with ICE.

The market for EV's is rising and should continue to rise so I think resale values are going to be solid for quite some time as more and more people look to buy an EV in their price range. Alot of people dont need 200km.

ewj1978

metricspaces wrote: »

So that's about 160km range from battery?

How much would you squeeze out if you kept it to 100kph?

My longest drive would be about 250km. If the battery degraded even a little I'd not make it on one tank.

Stop for 10 minutes to stretch your legs and plug in or just stick more fuel in it. My longest spin will be 400km to Belfast. I'll stop twice just as I do in a normal ICE car.

ewj1978

Autoglass rang me yesterday to put off their home visit till Friday.
Its a class 4 job supposedly.. Means a specially trained lad and his mate have to do it. Will take up to 3 hours.
Lad on the phone was very apologetic saying that I should have been told this when booking last week.

punisher5112

ewj1978 wrote: »

Autoglass rang me yesterday to put off their home visit till Friday.
Its a class 4 job supposedly.. Means a specially trained lad and his mate have to do it. Will take up to 3 hours.
Lad on the phone was very apologetic saying that I should have been told this when booking last week.

It's an extremely difficult job to do and as others mentioned if not done carefully and correctly it's a complete right off of a car.

80sDiesel

ewj1978 wrote: »

Autoglass rang me yesterday to put off their home visit till Friday.
Its a class 4 job supposedly.. Means a specially trained lad and his mate have to do it. Will take up to 3 hours.
Lad on the phone was very apologetic saying that I should have been told this when booking last week.

Does your insurance cover it?

Silent Running

punisher5112 wrote: »

It's an extremely difficult job to do and as others mentioned if not done carefully and correctly it's a complete right off of a car.

How long can it be before insurance companies refuse windscreen cover on the I3?

unkel

My insurance covered my windscreen replacement in Ioniq (cost €760). I had to bring it to Mr Windscreen head office in Dublin though, their only place that could do the job.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

My insurance covered my windscreen replacement in Ioniq (cost €760). I had to bring it to Mr Windscreen head office in Dublin though, their only place that could do the job.

I got mine replaced at the dealer. The normal guy in the Autoglass van arrived and changed the screen and the dealer did the calibration on the LKAS camera.

unkel

Looks like the didn't have the expertise in Autoglass to do it and they did in Mr Windscreen? Or are you based outside of the Dublin area?

They said the reason for only being able to do it was that they had to calibrate the camera alright. It doesn't feel different now than with my old windscreen in place. So I hope they did a good job

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

I've come to the conclusion that the elusive cheap long range EV is a long way away and that the €38k for a Kona is in or around what we will be paying for quite some time for a car with that size battery/range.

I know Shef will be here any second now with the VW €25k car but thats a unicorn, imo.

Base Neo model here will likely be priced the same as the Leaf and Ioniq. Spec it up and add a 60kWh+ battery and I bet you will be in the same €38k ballpark.

The $35k Model 3 will also be in the same ball park. L62 will be ~€6k more than the L40 so again same ballpark.

What else is there?

And as the prices come down the incentives will disappear, keeping the price static for another few years.

TL;DR; As bad an all as the €38k price is, I dont think it will depreciate like a stone. We've heard it all before so many times.... old Leaf will depreciate like a stone when the new one comes out.... and it hasnt happened... the price goes up.

Been saying that for years

This 2020 the year of the EV ain't happening

Prices are not going down for years, without the subsidies in place today of €10,000 the EV is doa

For sure VW will make a great EV, but it won't be cheap for long range like 400-500km

Even an incredibly efficient Tesla Model 3 with a huge 78kWh battery can only get real world 400-500km

Even at the magical €100kWh we are supposed to hit in early 20's, thats an almost €8000 battery

Add in cooling, cabling, pack layout, casing, etc won't be far off €10,000 as it's a complicated mess with like 6000 AA sized batteries all cabled together with liquid cooling in an aluminium case

Your average EV maker is looking at below just to replace a petrol tank and engine for a long range EV

Battery 70kWh €7000
Electric motor €1000
Controller €1000
Charge Port €700
Cooling, casing, cabling, pack etc €1000
Other €1000

Almost the price of a brand new Seat Ibiza for a tank and engine

If someone wants an EV buy it today or very soon while the €10,000 subsidy is in place, without it....

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Looks like the didn't have the expertise in Autoglass to do it and they did in Mr Windscreen? Or are you based outside of the Dublin area?

They said the reason for only being able to do it was that they had to calibrate the camera alright. It doesn't feel different now than with my old windscreen in place. So I hope they did a good job

Based in Wexford.

Did you have to leave the car and come back later? Curing of the adhesive takes an hour and the car shouldn't be moved. The calibration takes 15 minutes.

Could Mr. Windscreen have taken your car to a dealer to get it calibrated before you picked it up?

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

Could Mr. Windscreen have taken your car to a dealer to get it calibrated before you picked it up?

It's possible, but I got the impression they did it themselves.

I did have to leave the car with them for most of the day. Had my bike in the boot

ewj1978

80sDiesel wrote: »

Does your insurance cover it?

Fully comp with windscreen cover so I'd be assuming so.. Might give them a tinkle to make sure.

We’re in cork and dingle for the weekend.

On the way down stopped at the IONITY charger, took 15 mins to get it to charge, had to call the helpline for remote activation. The phone activation does not work so beware of that to safe time Messing around, if it doesn’t work first time call the helpline. The charge leads are ridiculously short and are going to break because they will get linked easily as people bend the crap out of them to try get the plug connected. Wasn’t to bad for the I3 but the E-tron driver really struggled.

Anyway , I left cashel with 98% and turned on the Rez at 75% as early as it allows. Then into mallow , had some business there, then to cork all on the Rex or from 75% charge roughly 55km from cashel. 120 kmh on the motorway and 120 since I joined from Carlow to ballacolla no driving at 100 or 110 kmh in the motorway.

So so far I used about 6 liters of petrol and have 60% which is enough to get me from Cork to Killarney fast charger at least it has ccs now. In fact I’ve used about 6 liters of petrol since December , actually no I haven’t because I set off with just under 3 quarters of a tank and have a quarter left so probably about 4 liters used maybe 5.

From Killarney onto Dingle later today.

The Rex is just so convenient, all ac points close by in cork are in use so unless one frees up in the meantime I’ll just go to Killarney straight.

punisher5112

What's the max in cold weather out of battery and rex together and then in the summer.

Oh how I would love to be able to even get a enough of a loan to get one.

They've grown on me so much.

I'm doing around 1k km a week so will need to do something in the near future as diesel costs rising etc....

It all depends on how hard you drive but should get 130 kms minimum and another 80-90 at 120-130 kmh, on Rex . I’ve never paid too much attention to it really because that’s the beauty of the Rex , you don’t need to.

Slower driving should see 170 kms cold wet to 200-230 kms warm dry, the wind is the real problem in Ireland. Rex can provide up to 130 kms again slower driving.

The Rex also eliminates cold battery charging which can add at least 15 mins to a charge. It’s just so convenient and such a shame BMW no longer allow anyone to choose the Rex in Europe with new I3 purchases . They must be getting more tax incentives for having my Bev option only!

punisher5112

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It all depends on how hard you drive but should get 130 kms minimum and another 80-90 at 120-130 kmh, on Rex . I’ve never paid too much attention to it really because that’s the beauty of the Rex , you don’t need to.

Slower driving should see 170 kms cold wet to 200-230 kms warm dry, the wind is the real problem in Ireland. Rex can provide up to 130 kms again slower driving.

The Rex also eliminates cold battery charging which can add at least 15 mins to a charge. It’s just so convenient and such a shame BMW no longer allow anyone to choose the Rex in Europe with new I3 purchases . They must be getting more tax incentives for having my Bev option only!

Does sound really ideal and a wonder more didn't take it up.

Obviously I would love the i8 but that's never going to happen but what a beut....

When the motor is running do you find it much louder or are they well sound proofed?

Do you ever get sick of beating everyone off the lights....

To be honest beating people off the lights is an illusion as 99% of people are not trying to race you but I like to have fun in it.

Handling is very good but I’d like to try the S Model I3 which is supposed to handle well and is slightly more powerful.

After 1.5 years I still love driving it and will probably keep it after the pcp is up because I don’t think there is anything that I’d be bothered driving after the I3 at least until something else comes along at the right price.

Regarding the Rex noise, I can hardly hear it. Radio on you won’t hear it at all .

Drove from Dingle today, charged from 50 - 80 % at the AC point at the Aquarium, went in had a look, impressive well worth to see it if you're down that direction.

Got to Newcastle, Leaf 40 there so moved on, had 30% charge, turned on the Rex as soon as I got out of town then Rex all the way to Obama Plaza on the M7, no car there so charged to 90%. A lady pulled up in a 30 Kwh Leaf as I was almost finished. She was delighted lol.

120 Km/h all the way where possible and limits elsewhere. The Rex is just fantastic I love it, just so damn convenient and the best purchase I could have made, we've a long way to go before I convert back to BEV , even in a Kona 60 Kwh my issues would still be the same, when away from home I simply can't depend on the network. Rex I can take anywhere, anytime.

drove 316 Kms starting from 80% in dingle - 30 % in Newcastle then Rex from 30% from Newcastle to Obama plaza and home on battery. The idea is to preserve some battery 30-40% for the 120 Km/h motorway so you have plenty of power then you can either use the battery the last 30 odd Kms or hold it for less time on the charger, guess what option I prefer ? haha, yes less charging time.

316 kms and used about 4 litres of petrol , beat that diesel !

The BMW i3 Rex is one marvellous piece of engineering !

mickdw

Rex appears very useful but I thought the original leaf was all the car anyone could ever need?

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

Rex appears very useful but I thought the original leaf was all the car anyone could ever need?

I don't remember saying the Leaf was all the EV anyone would ever need ?

Gumbo

mickdw wrote: »

Rex appears very useful but I thought the original leaf was all the car anyone could ever need?

Depending on the persons user Habbits it could be more than needed.

Me personally, I dont like the REX but it’s totally personal. If I was doing mad lads trip with the family, I’d do it in our ICE as I couldn’t be bothered dealing with public charge points.

On my own, I’d probably do it in the BEV as if I have to hang around for a charge then it’s only me that’s bored.

dashoonage

Why do people not like the rex , is it carrying round the engine ?

punisher5112

Sounds great.

Oh how I want......

n97 mini

kceire wrote: »

Depending on the persons user Habbits it could be more than needed.

Me personally, I dont like the REX but it’s totally personal. If I was doing mad lads trip with the family, I’d do it in our ICE as I couldn’t be bothered dealing with public charge points.

On my own, I’d probably do it in the BEV as if I have to hang around for a charge then it’s only me that’s bored.

Do you have a BEV, ICE and Rex?

n97 mini

dashoonage wrote: »

Why do people not like the rex , is it carrying round the engine ?

It's dead weight, but nowhere near the dead weight of the 1.4L four cylinder actual car engine in the Ampera. I've not driven a Rex but in terms of dead weight I would have thought a 600cc 2 cylinder moped engine is preferable. Lighter anyway, even if it doesn't have the same range on gas.

Mike9832

n97 mini wrote: »

It's dead weight, but nowhere near the dead weight of the 1.4L four cylinder actual car engine in the Ampera. I've not driven a Rex but in terms of dead weight I would have thought a 600cc 2 cylinder moped engine is preferable. Lighter anyway, even if it doesn't have the same range on gas.

How is it dead weight if the i3 is literally the lightest EV you can buy at 1300kg, the rex is like 100kg or so

If BMW put this tech in to a 3 series it would have been incredibly successful, but they didn't want that and put into that hideous i3 ( no offence )

Same as Honda and the Clarity, put that tech in the hatchback Civic and see the demand then, instead of that ugly Clarity

n97 mini

Mike9832 wrote: »

How is it dead weight if the i3 is literally the lightest EV you can buy at 1300kg, the rex is like 100kg or so

Dead weight is exactly that. It's like having a petrol generator that's rarely used in the boot that you can't take out. But that's the nature of PHEVs.

Note I did say I think a 600cc moped engine is preferable to an actual fully blown car engine when it comes to hauling around dead weight.

Mike9832

n97 mini wrote: »

Dead weight is exactly that. It's like having a petrol generator that's rarely used in the boot that you can't take out. But that's the nature of PHEVs.

Note I did say I think a 600cc moped engine is preferable to an actual fully blown car engine when it comes to hauling around dead weight.

Its hardly dead weight when it serves a purpose and gives a 100km of range

Just goes to show how crap batteries are

A generator, exhaust system, petrol tank etc and all other ice bits at just over 100kg gives about the same the range as 100kg of batteries

Sure you need about 1000kg battery pack to match the range of a small diesel, now thats dead weight

Gumbo

dashoonage wrote: »

Why do people not like the rex , is it carrying round the engine ?

I went EV to not use ICE at all where possible.
I'm going all in with EV.

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you have a BEV, ICE and Rex?

I have a BEV.
Wife has ICE.

I had the choice to get BEV i3 and use the Outlander like I did with the Leaf , use the diesel on long trips but why bother ? I can use the i3 to go wherever I want when I want.

I work shift and Partner works and I have plenty of days off when I can get in the car on a nice day and take my two Sons and not have to worry about charging infrastructure and don't have access to the outlander.

Why would I restrict myself so much again this time around ?

I really didn't care that the Rex will be used rarely but when I do it gets used a lot.

Yes I could hang around and wait 1 hr for a leaf 40 to charge and then have to wait to charge myself or I could have to wait for 2 x Leaf 40 to charge with potential 2 hrs wait and 30 mins for myself, by all means if that's what someone wants to avoid burning some petrol and carrying around a generator then go right ahead, it isn't however what I would consider acceptable or fun.

As I said , even if I had to have the Kona I'd still be facing the same issues, the infrastructure is absolute crap. Yes I'd have more EV range but the more I think about it I could see the Rex a bit like the Kona, it gives me more range but still face the same problems in regard to infrastructure if I want to charge only the Rex eliminates those issues.

Yes some day we'll have a good infrastructure but this is almost May now and no sign of any new ESB chargers and I'm 1.5 years into the i3 PCP, yeah there have been upgrades but still one charger.

Only for the Obama Plaza charger was free I would have had to use the Rex from Newcastle all the way to Carlow or I could have added serious time to my trip.

A kona is great but it takes longer to charge.

I think I could be hanging onto the Rex for some time after the PCP, unless there's a big change in infrastructure in 1.5 years. I would want a faster charging EV too, 50 Kw is old school now.

Either way, I am just happy to be free of the public network issues until things improve, range, recharge times and the number of chargers available.

People may criticise the Rex, mainly BEV owners and those who don't own it but for someone who did the whole BEV thing for 3 years and 85,000 kms it's just brilliant !

DrPhilG

I would prefer to be full EV, but it just isn't possible with the current infrastructure.

2 years time with a better eCars network plus Ionity and others in place and I might switch out again.

Gumbo

I don't think anybody is asking you to justify your decision for the REX. Its all personal. You get the car to suit your needs, whether that be EV, ICE, PHEV etc

There's nothing wrong with any decision IMO

I'm lucky that I have work and home charging so that I am always at 100% and i'm Dublin based for work and living. So any day of the week I can throw the kids in the car and be in any resort local enough and home without charging (Howth, Beaches, Shopping etc)

I can cover house to Bray and back without charging and/or similar locations.

The only downside is that we tend to take my i3 at the weekends too so its my car that gets the mileage

My car gets the mode mileage too which will likely see me a good bit over my PCP but I won't be handing it back so that's irrelevant but too high and it could effect any value over the GFMV. Though at this rate chances are I'll be keeping it.

Battery is still at 100% capacity so looking good so far.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

My car gets the mode mileage too which will likely see me a good bit over my PCP but I won't be handing it back so that's irrelevant but too high and it could effect any value over the GFMV. Though at this rate chances are I'll be keeping it.

Battery is still at 100% capacity so looking good so far.

I need to figure out how to check battery capacity.

KCross

kceire wrote: »

I need to figure out how to check battery capacity.

Drive from 100% until it stops.. thats your battery capacity!
And if you trust Bjorn, thats how he does it!

I dont trust these Torque app readings that say the batteries are still at 100% after 2,3,4 years.... its not technically possible for a Li-ion to have no degradation in that time period so it could be that the BMS is just not reporting it gradually, but in chunks... who knows.... range is the true determinent of the capacity.... everything else is a guesstimate.

Its a bit like the Leaf showing 12 bars until all of a sudden it goes to 11 bars and now you have 85% capacity.... in reality you didnt lose 15% overnight, it happened gradually and we just happen to know that because we have LeafSpy which shows it.... the other EV's could, for all we know, just be reporting "12 bars=100%" but in fact under the hood it could be down 5,10, 15%... the thing is, we dont know.... range is what people should look at, imo.

Gumbo

KCross wrote: »

Drive from 100% until it stops.. thats your battery capacity!

I done that in the Leaf
Don't fancy doing it again!

The BMS is a bit more sophisticated it can also measure internal resistance which gives a better overall indication of battery health. As the battery ages internal resistance increases.

Here's how to check the i3.

https://bmwi3owner.com/2016/01/secrets/

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

The BMS is a bit more sophisticated it can also measure internal resistance which gives a better overall indication of battery health. As the battery ages internal resistance increases.

Yes and No. You need to run it down to "draw out" the weak cells and get the BMS to trip turtle mode and thats your true capacity. Any readings on the dash need to be taken with a pinch of salt.


I'll put it to you this way.... I could claim my 4yr old Leaf is at 100% because thats what the dash is telling me... 12 bars. We both know its not 100% but I can claim 100% becuase I have 12 bars.

Every Ioniq owner claims they are at 100% too but after 2yrs I dont believe it... common sense would tell you its not at 100%.... 100% is just too perfect a number for it to be the real value.... why havent any of them gone to 99% yet... you'd think at least one would have?! 100% is not real, imo.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Yes and No. You need to run it down to "draw out" the weak cells and get the BMS to trip turtle mode and thats your true capacity. Any readings on the dash need to be taken with a pinch of salt.


I'll put it to you this way.... I could claim my 4yr old Leaf is at 100% because thats what the dash is telling me... 12 bars. We both know its not 100% but I can claim 100% becuase I have 12 bars.

Every Ioniq owner claims they are at 100% too but after 2yrs I dont believe it... common sense would tell you its not at 100%.... 100% is just too perfect a number for it to be the real value.... why havent any of them gone to 99% yet... you'd think at least one would have?! 100% is not real, imo.

No the leaf does not report 100% capacity at 12 bars, it reports up to 100% but this could be in reality 85-100% as the manual states.

leaf spy won't be 100% but it's better than the dash, a lot, so is the i3 "hidden" menu.

Yes the weaker cells become known at low soc and at this point when low battery comes on it's better to be very easy in the throttle.

I am not sure how Ioniq owners measure this.

It's highly believable the i3 has 100 % as battery tech has improved since the Leaf MK I and larger batteries are not cycled as much.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

No the leaf does not report 100% capacity at 12 bars, it reports up to 100% but this could be in reality 85-100% as the manual states.

Thas exactly my point. The Leaf reports the state of health via the 12 bars to the owner..... anything from 85%-100% is reported as 12 bars... which to the owner represents 100%... you have no indication if its 85.1% or 100% unless you use LeafSpy.

LeafSpy equivalents are not available for other EV's so we dont really know what the other cars are at. The Torque App, from what I can see, is just reporting "12bars=100%" for the Ioniq rather than having the inside knowledge of what the actual degradation is, as calculated by the BMS.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's highly believable the i3 has 100 %...

I'm amazed you believe that to be honest.

Your car is still quite new so I'm sure its in the high 90's still, but to think it has suffered an absolute zero amount of degradation flies against all knowledge of Li-ion tech.... it started degrading the day it was manufactured.... do you think otherwise?

I believe it because it gives me the same range to 50 % same routes same driving style. The leaf did not after 3 years and I reached low battery earlier in my commute by the time I got rid of it.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe it because it gives me the same range to 50 % same routes same driving style. The leaf did not after 3 years and I reached low battery earlier in my commute by the time I got rid of it.

My battery is down, according to LeafSpy, about 13%. My usual commute still has me arriving at much the same % as before.... maybe down 3%... certainly nowhere near 13%.

I think the i3 is rated for something like 4500 cycles to 80%?
If you cycle that once every 2 days and you have it 2yrs you already have ~5% degradation based on Samsung specs but thats probably not enough to notice it on your commute as temp, the Rex, wet, windy etc and various other variables would mask it anyway.

I think you know yourself its not a true 100%!
If it is, Samsung have defied the laws of physics!

Silent Running

KCross wrote: »

My battery is down, according to LeafSpy, about 13%. My usual commute still has me arriving at much the same % as before.... maybe down 3%... certainly nowhere near 13%.

I think the i3 is rated for something like 4500 cycles to 80%?
If you cycle that once every 2 days and you have it 2yrs you already have ~5% degradation based on Samsung specs but thats probably not enough to notice it on your commute as temp, the Rex, wet, windy etc and various other variables would mask it anyway.

I think you know yourself its not a true 100%!
If it is, Samsung have defied the laws of physics!

I've seen people post that their battery is at 105% after 2 years. :D

KCross

KCross wrote: »

My battery is down, according to LeafSpy, about 13%. My usual commute still has me arriving at much the same % as before.... maybe down 3%... certainly nowhere near 13%.

I think the i3 is rated for something like 4500 cycles to 80%?
If you cycle that once every 2 days and you have it 2yrs you already have ~5% degradation based on Samsung specs but thats probably not enough to notice it on your commute as temp, the Rex, wet, windy etc and various other variables would mask it anyway.

I think you know yourself its not a true 100%!
If it is, Samsung have defied the laws of physics!

It rarely gets a full cycle or even close to it. So that can only have a positive effect.

As I said, the BMS monitors internal resistance which is a good indicator to battery health, the higher the resistance the less capacity it will have under load and the more it will heat when fast charging.

When Nissan "fixed" their BMS they could also have unlocked hidden capacity to mask degradation. But better to have it than want it I suppose.

But anyway guess we can argue about this forever.

KCross

Silent Running wrote: »

I've seen people post that their battery is at 105% after 2 years. :D

My own was at something like that when I bought it and it was a year old at that point and it was solid at 100% for about another year and then it went down to 93% literally overnight.

The way the BMS calculates SOH is not an exact science.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

It rarely gets a full cycle or even close to it. So that can only have a positive effect.

A cycle can be 100-20-100 (80% DoD) over one day or it can be 100-60-100 over two days (80% over 2 days).

I think you said yours doesnt go below 40-50% as you have the extra range now which is why I said one cycle every 2 days.

So you are fully cycling the battery (according to Samsung specs) just not all in the one day.

But don't forget that battery life depends on many factors , improve the chemistry to better withstand some of those factors and you improve more than cycle life.

Samsung's specs are I think for 3500 cycles if I remember correctly. 100% cycles, that is 0-100 , BMW does not allow this and the Rex even less.

3200 cycles to 80% that would be about 544,000 Kms to 80% capacity based on 100% 0-100% cycles.