DCM 2017 Graduates: Onwards and upwards!

Kellygirl

El Caballo wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that anything I say isn't going to change your mind:pac: All I can do is share my thoughts. If you do decide to do it, just go handy and if anything doesn't feel right, don't be afraid to knock it on the head. You'll have many more great days ahead if you look after yourself.

I think I’m literally going to decide on the day and if conditions are perfect I’ll go for it and def take it handy. If the weather is bad or I feel tired I won’t do it. I’ll stick with the half and hopefully get a pb there.

My main worry is that my longest run since Dublin is a half though I’ve done 10 and 11 miles in the weeks before that. I wonder would I have needed longer.

Not ignoring advice by the way and I appreciate any input. Stubbornness could be a small issue too though!

ariana`

Hi all.

Baby thanks for setting this up. And El Cab thanks for taking us on. You gave us great advice on the Novices thread so it's brilliant to have you here, we're a lucky bunch

Well 4 weeks later, 2 weeks of zero running and 2 weeks of very very very little running i finally feel recovered from DCM It seems to have taken me a lot longer than some of you but that's ok; i had no immediate goals, it's onward and upwards from here all going well :cool:

DCM was one of the most amazing days of my life, possibly only surpassed by the births of my kids (i kind of have to say that don't I :pac:), and it will be hard to top it as an experience but i love running and have missed it the past 4 weeks even though i needed the break in mind and body so it's time to get focused again, as focussed as one can be 4 weeks before Christmas with a string of parties and so on lined up

A: What are your next goals?
Where do i start :pac:

Sub 50 10k, sub 2 hr half marathon and another marathon are all high on the list. Which one of those is top of the list i am not sure yet

And anything else is a bonus

B: What type of training do you intend to do over the winter?
As i've said elsewhere lots of S&C anyhow. I've been signed up for a Duathlon (Run, Bike, Run) in 4 weeks time which i'm looking forward to doing from a fun/sociable aspect. It will be January before i tackle any king of training plan until then i'll be winging it, fitting in runs (and cycles i suppose!) when i can and prioritising gym sessions.

C: Where do you hope to see yourself to be in 12 months with your running?
In 12 months time i'd like to be running strong and have completed another marathon and/or a couple of HMs and events over shorter distances.

ariana`

KG you've already completed 2 full marathons this year - Cork & Dublin. And a half marathon since Dublin as well. I think it's a lot to ask your body to do a 3rd full marathon in the same year even without pushing the pace. I think to build from quite a low mileage base in 2016 (?) to doing 3 marathons in a year is a big ask on your body and while you may feel fine (and it's fantastic that you do) something might give at this point. I would ask myself which is most important to me
A. Run a marathon next weekend?
B. Start 2018 strong and in a position to set an aggressive goal for Cork/Dublin (or other distance/event) and really give it a lash?

Just my opinion by the way, i admire the fact that you can even contemplating doing it!!

henrietta

Hi All,

Great to see this thread and hopefully get some motivation from it.

Ye all seem to be doing great running in the last month, my own seems to have taken a bit of a back seat.
I really took to the idea that the body needs rest after a marathon.
I had my mother on babysitting duties while I trained for the marathon so think she needs a break now so no evening running for me lately. Sat morning seems to have fallen away a bit too with just one 10k in the last month! But I'm determined to get that back on track (probably after Christmas as out the next 3 Friday nights). I am still trying to get two short lunchtime runs in (6k) and I go to gym classes the other 3 lunches.
So as you can see the excuses are coming thick and fast here. If only I could run as fast I can make up excuses !;-)



A: What are your next goals?
Well first of all I suppose to get back running regularly.
Then I'm going to do a park run, I have the barcodes for about a year but never made it to a run.
I'd like to do another half or two. I'd love to get down to 2hrs but maybe a bit ambitious, my PB is 2.04.22 or thereabouts. Hope to do Kinvara in March but don't think that's a 2hr course for me so will have to find another one aswell.
I'd love to get under 56 for a 10k too. Its so long since I did one I don't know what time it was but was def over 57 mins.


B: What type of training do you intend to do over the winter?
If I'm honest it will be minimal until after Christmas.
Then I'd like to do a semi long run on a Sat morning, a session of some sort on wed lunch and another run Friday lunch.
Maybe try get a fourth run in some evening (currently rehearsing for a play so once that's over I'll have more time)

C: Where do you hope to see yourself to be in 12 months with your running?
I'd like to be still running consistently (have a bit of a stop start history!)
Maybe Maybe do Dublin again. Feel I've unfinished business, that I didn't train smart/hard enough or race hard enough either, did it at practically LSR pace for fear of blowing up. Paced for 4.35 did 4.32.22. would love to get closer to 4.15/4.20

So Thank you Baby for starting this thread and El Caballo for agreeing to be our mentor. If we get even half as much out of this as we did out of the novices thread it will be brilliant.

clickerquicklic

Thanks El Caballo for the great info and offering to give advice here.

A: What are your next goals?

Get some speed back 18.44 parkrun pb was done during marathon training I'd like to get down to sub 18, but first I need to get back to 18.44 . I'll probably do the Raheny 5 mile , did that last year and it was well organised (I won't make the mistake of starting at the back this year)

B: What type of training do you intend to do over the winter?

Some sort of speed session Tuesday and/or Thursday , a tempo Parkrun on Saturday and a Sunday longer run of just over an hour.

C: Where do you hope to see yourself to be in 12 months with your running?
Still running and enjoying it.

---

I've been working on strength and conditioning a lot since marathon, still tipping away with the running and cycling.
I have done 1 parkrun 2 weeks ago at tempo pace 20mins , this weeks parkrun I ran in 19:49 , I feel very controlled at that pace.

Since the marathon I feel like I'm running different more from my legs and less from my lungs (if that makes sense) I feel very strong when running even at tempo/threshold pace like I can easily up the gears and push forward , I often do this in Parkrun I'll push a little for a few hundred meters overtake a few people till my lungs start to give out then I settle back to tempo pace. I haven't really established a race pace I think that is half the problem.

I'm reluctant to start back doing speed work too soon , did my first bit of speedwork last week in a fartlek session , did 7 miles with 1k/600/400/400 fast in between gentle running , I was happy with these efforts hit 5.45 mile pace consistently for the efforts the goal was sub 6 pace. I'm planning to do a few more weeks of fartlek running might extend the efforts to 1mile/800/600/400 , i'm enjoying the lack of structure and just getting out doing what I want and targeting a few strava segments on my way!

Thanks and good luck to everyone in their training.

Baby75

Hi Laraze, clickerquicklic, henrietta and Ariana great to see you here

I never got round to answering the questions myself so making the time to do it now

A: What are your next goals?
I want to focus on S&C so far so good and I have at last won the battle with strengthing my glutes! Hill walking yesterday and yep they got used some doms today As for running I want to start working on some speed while keeping myself HM fit, I really love this distance I also plan on getting out on my bike more and working on getting my butt used to long hours in the saddle ( for future adventure races)

B: What type of training do you intend to do over the winter?
I want to find a good 5k plan with longer distance still an aspect which I see from last years Graduate plan is very doable December my plan is to keep running 3 to 4 times a week increase my cycling distance and S&C then starting a plan in January and get out in kyack more!

C: Where do you hope to see yourself to be in 12 months with your running?
Hopefully, I will have succeeded and smashed some of my PB goals and set new ones, to have a great base to work off when I start training and FX run DCM18 I have unfinished business I want to be able to run it as best I can and see what time I could get DCM17 was more like an LSR best one ever though loved every minute of it ( no plans to cycle up again next year or if hubby does I may leave him with his friend and push on myself eek feel a bit mean saying that! I also will be skipping cycling home even though I loved that as well! I want to enjoy the atmosphere and have a drink before I head home :)I also hope to beat times in some adventure races I took part in this year and do more in 2018.

skyblue46

Right so I have had a look at the 10k-HM graduates training plan. Lots of variety in the sessions. I'm looking forward to that. I put my HM and 5k time into the training paces calculator and the results were practically identical so they will be the paces I will use. As expected I have a few questions for El C! :rolleyes:

A) My easy/ very easy training paces during the Boards plan were generally run at 9:20- 10:00 pace. The calculator gives 9:54-10:15 for easy and 10:18-11:03 for very easy. Should I slow down to these paces to allow for the increased numbers of hard sessions? Trust the plan rather than go by what I may have mistakenly believed to be easy running?

Recovery run pace is not listed. Would I be right to assume it would be in the range of 10:30-11:30 pace?

C) What sort of hills are best for the 1 minute hills? I presume they wouldn't be as steep as those used for 10 sec hill sprints? What pace/ effort on the hills?

D) Where recovery is mentioned in different sessions should it be standing, walking or jogging?

That's it for starters but something tells me it won't be the end of questions!:pac:

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

Right so I have had a look at the 10k-HM graduates training plan. Lots of variety in the sessions. I'm looking forward to that. I put my HM and 5k time into the training paces calculator and the results were practically identical so they will be the paces I will use. As expected I have a few questions for El C! :rolleyes:

A) My easy/ very easy training paces during the Boards plan were generally run at 9:20- 10:00 pace. The calculator gives 9:54-10:15 for easy and 10:18-11:03 for very easy. Should I slow down to these paces to allow for the increased numbers of hard sessions? Trust the plan rather than go by what I may have mistakenly believed to be easy running?

Recovery run pace is not listed. Would I be right to assume it would be in the range of 10:30-11:30 pace?

C) What sort of hills are best for the 1 minute hills? I presume they wouldn't be as steep as those used for 10 sec hill sprints? What pace/ effort on the hills?

D) Where recovery is mentioned in different sessions should it be standing, walking or jogging?

That's it for starters but something tells me it won't be the end of questions!:pac:

Haha, fire away:)

Easy Runs:

Easy runs are a funny one and there is a huge variety of opinion out there on the effort/pace that you should do them that. Some calculators like McMillian will set very aggressive paces and others like Tinmans attached one will be on the slower side. I think for many of recreational runners, it's best to err on the side of slower easy runs as we haven't fully tapped into our aerobic potential yet and will still see big gains from that lower intensity. HADD (an old coach who used to post on another forum) had a really good methaphor for this I think. Think of your training as a tube of toothpaste, if you start squeezing it in the middle, you'll only get half of it out so the idea is that if you start at the bottom and gradually work up, you will get the most out of your potential and your easy runs will start to get faster as you get fitter and fitter aerobically.

Workouts will also affect your easy pace for obvious reasons as a pace that feels easy when you are fresh is a lot harder when you are tired. The key here is that while the pace may change depending on how you feel, effort should remain constantly easy. Somedays it may be 9:30 pace and others may be 10:30. Remember that your body doesn't understand distance or minutes per mile very easily, it only knows effort and as such, pace ranges are only guidelines to give you an idea.

Running easier will also have an effect on how well you run workouts as you don't want to be wrecked from running too hard on easy days as it will have a knock on effect on being shattered going into speedwork. The goal of easy running is to help recovery between workouts and provide a small aerobic stress, run too hard on easy days and you limit the recovery aspect which will also undermine your workouts. Here's a really famous and brilliant article on this that I would recommend everyone read:

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/

I kind of drifted away from your question Skyblue:p but I think it's important to elaborate on what easy running is and the goal behind it. Many newer runners and even those at it for a while tend to run their easy days way too hard because they may not fully understand the goal of the run. Backing off the pace on easy days also opens up the oppurtunity to increase your weekly mileage/kilometrage:) as well which will give you a huge improvement in race times.

As I said, opinion varies hugely on this so I am speaking from a position of bias on this and what feels best for me personally. Maybe dial back the top end pace a bit and see how you feel. I don't think you are going way too fast by any means so expermint and see.



Very Easy should have you covered for recovery, just different terms for the same runs.

C)Anything around 5-6% should be good to go for very short to midrange hill sprints. Longer ones above 90 seconds and 4% would suit better.

For short hill sprints like 10 seconds, the effort should be 100%, literally as fast as you can run while maintaining good form. The midrange ones of 60-90 seconds and 3-5k pace should be a good guideline. The goal with hill sprints should be focus on good running form and being in control. As with any hard workouts, you should finish the session knowing you could complete 1 or 2 more intervals if you had to. The goal isn't so much to run hard as it is to run fast and efficiently.

D)Anywhere that doesn't have jog recovery, either standing or a slow walk should be perfectly fine. Personally, I find a slow walk to be beneficial as my legs tend to cease up a bit when I'm just standing around waiting for the next one.

Hope that helps:)

skyblue46

That's brilliant. It's all crystal clear now. Thanks a million. I'll get Jingle Bells out of the way this weekend and then start on the 14 week plan. That'll bring me up to the Bohermeen Half which by all accounts is a decent race.

RolandDeschain

Sorry, I haven't posted in ages. Life has been a bit hectic the last 3 weeks.

Great to see this thread set up! The kick up the a** I need to get going again.

What are your next goals?

Speed. All my running has been more or less the same pace. Time to introduce speed sessions and get the heart rate up.

My mobility is abysmal. So regularly working out kinks on the foam roller would also be good.

B: What type of training do you intend to do over the winter?

I have started a CrossFit kind of gym program 3 days a week. Mix of strength, hypertrophy and metcon stuff.

I have settled on the graduate HM plan and aiming for an early March half. Maybe a 5m, 10k in the build up.

C: Where do you hope to see yourself to be in 12 months with your running?

New 10k and HM PB. Getting closer to a sub 40 10k.

skyblue46

Sub 40.....Holy Sh1t !!! I love it.

Swashbuckler

El Caballo wrote:

As I said, opinion varies hugely on this so I am speaking from a position of bias on this and what feels best for me personally. Maybe dial back the top end pace a bit and see how you feel. I don't think you are going way too fast by any means so expermint and see.

Just to add to El C's excellent response McMillian estimates my easy pace as 6.55 to 7.54 minutes per mile. I was typically running somewhere in the middle of this range up to recently. Since I started getting some coaching my easy run pace is now prescribed as 7.58 to 8.25 minutes per mile. I've noticed a massive difference since running the easy runs actually easy. I have more energy and feel fresher for the sessions during the week. So like El C said its worth erring on the cautious side. Priority is to be relatively fresh for the sessions. If you're going too fast on the easy days then the key sessions will suffer.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Just to add to El C's excellent response McMillian estimates my easy pace as 6.55 to 7.54 minutes per mile. I was typically running somewhere in the middle of this range up to recently. Since I started getting some coaching my easy run pace is now prescribed as 7.58 to 8.25 minutes per mile. I've noticed a massive difference since running the easy runs actually easy. I have more energy and feel fresher for the sessions during the week. So like El C said its worth erring on the cautious side. Priority is to be relatively fresh for the sessions. If you're going too fast on the easy days then the key sessions will suffer.

Thanks. I did a little run tonight at the plan easy paces and the penny dropped. I had always kinda figured if it wasn't difficult that it was easy but tonight was proper easy.

Kellygirl

Good to see more of the group joining here! Good questions earlier Sean and enjoyed reading El C’s answers. I must look at that plan. I still haven’t studied the training plans. Having said that, I love going running with others as my break in the evenings so enjoying that for the moment.

Passed the 1500km mark this evening!

skyblue46

Kellygirl wrote: »

Good to see more of the group joining here! Good questions earlier Sean and enjoyed reading El C’s answers. I must look at that plan. I still haven’t studied the training plans. Having said that, I love going running with others as my break in the evenings so enjoying that for the moment.

Passed the 1500km mark this evening!

Well done on that! The 1,000 miles is nearly there. I get you about running with people. I've only ever really run alone and with my 2nd wife to be :pac: I have to admit the miles flew by when running with the novices pre DCM and the morning I met Browneyes and Lazare. I'm nerdy though and do love times, splits, plans, running without headphones!

ariana`

Great posts from El Caballo on Easy Paces & supported by Swashbuckler. Can i ask a question. What are junk miles? Or is there such a thing? My limited understanding is that all runs should have a purpose otherwise they are junk. But personally i haven't bothered with a pace calculator yet, i need to do a park run or race to get a recent race time first and i'm just enjoying running with friends again, running mostly at a chatting pace which can vary day to day, i call these easy miles but maybe they are junk miles

Where can one get the graduate plans that i hear mentioned? Sorry if this has been answered already

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

Well done on that! The 1,000 miles is nearly there. I get you about running with people. I've only ever really run alone and with my 2nd wife to be :pac: I have to admit the miles flew by when running with the novices pre DCM and the morning I met Browneyes and Lazare. I'm nerdy though and do love times, splits, plans, running without headphones!

Hmmm, is this a recent bit of news by any chance??

Annie get your Run

ariana` wrote: »

Where can one get the graduate plans that i hear mentioned? Sorry if this has been answered already

The link is in the first post of this thread, I can't link again on my phone

edit first post here

Testosterscone

ariana` wrote: »

Great posts from El Caballo on Easy Paces & supported by Swashbuckler. Can i ask a question. What are junk miles? Or is there such a thing? My limited understanding is that all runs should have a purpose otherwise they are junk. But personally i haven't bothered with a pace calculator yet, i need to do a park run or race to get a recent race time first and i'm just enjoying running with friends again, running mostly at a chatting pace which can vary day to day, i call these easy miles but maybe they are junk miles

Where can one get the graduate plans that i hear mentioned? Sorry if this has been answered already

You are spot on regarding junk miles.

Junk miles for me (some other coaches would say there is a thing as too slow) are the grey area between fast and slow where most people fall. They aren't fast enough for a session but not slow enough to leave you prepped for workouts.

Best advice I can give is learn how to read your body. The best and most athletes tend to have following characteristics

- look after their lifestyles outside of training (make sure to get enough sleep, look after diet and heed the niggles)
- they become in tune with body and adjust effort based on the feedback
- have the confidence to back off training when needed but are honest enough with themselves to know the difference between warning signs and jut laziness

The calculator provided is a decent range to work from for most realitively new runners. The easy effort make a runner able to focus more on running efficiently rather than trying to manage the pace. Many coaches that feel that running too slow will make you inefficient but to be honest I think this is more down to the fact that pace whether too fast/too slow is the focus and they change there stride to an inefficient. A runner can be as smooth at 9 minutes as they are at 5 minutes

Most Irish Road Runners (and Road Runners in general) have bad form this is a fact and it's because the pace is the focus and not about how they run, similar to running intervals, the split becomes all important. There are many athletes who focus on getting from A to B in as quick a time in training but ignore trying to run smoothly and as such they are not really getting true benefits of the run.

Most of us have the aerobic capacity to run a lot quicker than we actually do simply because we have to be fitter to overcome our bad mechanics (a bit like building a big engine in a car and then putting it in square wheels)

This is one of the big points that the like of Hal Higdon and Couch to 5k miss the boat on

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

" .....................This has been shown to occur somewhere around AT (marathon pace) to LT. So Let's say your AT is at 5:20 pace. If you run at 5:35 pace all your doing is recruiting ST fibers and getting adaptations because the intensity isn't high enough to recruit FT fibers. So you might as well be training at 6:30 pace, because full ST fiber recruitment will be taking place there too. If the goal is to train FT fiber oxidative abilities then go run an LT session. If it's not, then don't run at a high intensity that's doing little benefit as a slower more comfortable run could do.

ariana` wrote:

Great posts from El Caballo on Easy Paces & supported by Swashbuckler. Can i ask a question. What are junk miles? Or is there such a thing? My limited understanding is that all runs should have a purpose otherwise they are junk. But personally i haven't bothered with a pace calculator yet, i need to do a park run or race to get a recent race time first and i'm just enjoying running with friends again, running mostly at a chatting pace which can vary day to day, i call these easy miles but maybe they are junk miles

It's interesting you ask as AuldManKing just posted this in RayCuns training long. It sums it up nicely I think. Basically easy runs serve a purpose and running them harder defeats that purpose. There's no real benefit to running easy runs faster as you will end up with less energy for your sessions.

In saying that, if you're just running away to enjoy your running without a particular plan or target in mind then I'm not sure these points are valid. But when it comes to proper blocks of training with with goals in mind then they certainly apply.

skyblue46

ariana` wrote: »

Hmmm, is this a recent bit of news by any chance??

Haha, no it's just to vary things from using OH and SO! :pac:

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

Haha, no it's just to vary things from using OH and SO! :pac:

Lol you're a character, you're 2nd wife to be is a lucky lady

ariana`

Testosterscone wrote: »

You are spot on regarding junk miles.

Junk miles for me (some other coaches would say there is a thing as too slow) are the grey area between fast and slow where most people fall. They aren't fast enough for a session but not slow enough to leave you prepped for workouts.

Best advice I can give is learn how to read your body. The best and most athletes tend to have following characteristics

- look after their lifestyles outside of training (make sure to get enough sleep, look after diet and heed the niggles)
- they become in tune with body and adjust effort based on the feedback
- have the confidence to back off training when needed but are honest enough with themselves to know the difference between warning signs and jut laziness

The calculator provided is a decent range to work from for most realitively new runners. The easy effort make a runner able to focus more on running efficiently rather than trying to manage the pace. Many coaches that feel that running too slow will make you inefficient but to be honest I think this is more down to the fact that pace whether too fast/too slow is the focus and they change there stride to an inefficient. A runner can be as smooth at 9 minutes as they are at 5 minutes

Most Irish Road Runners (and Road Runners in general) have bad form this is a fact and it's because the pace is the focus and not about how they run, similar to running intervals, the split becomes all important. There are many athletes who focus on getting from A to B in as quick a time in training but ignore trying to run smoothly and as such they are not really getting true benefits of the run.

Most of us have the aerobic capacity to run a lot quicker than we actually do simply because we have to be fitter to overcome our bad mechanics (a bit like building a big engine in a car and then putting it in square wheels)

This is one of the big points that the like of Hal Higdon and Couch to 5k miss the boat on

Swashbuckler wrote: »

It's interesting you ask as AuldManKing just posted this in RayCuns training long. It sums it up nicely I think. Basically easy runs serve a purpose and running them harder defeats that purpose. There's no real benefit to running easy runs faster as you will end up with less energy for your sessions.

In saying that, if you're just running away to enjoy your running without a particular plan or target in mind then I'm not sure these points are valid. But when it comes to proper blocks of training with with goals in mind then they certainly apply.

Thanks. Great explanations there. And it goes back to what was honed into us training for DCM, keep the easy runs easy.

I had a look at the graduate plans too. They look good. High enough mileage but i guess that's the way to improve. MY OH is going to love me when he sees another plan appearing on the fridge :pac:

I'll get myself to a park run one of the Saturdays and use the calculator then. I'm interested to see what i can run over 5k. I don't think there's any point setting paces off my marathon time and before that my last 10km was July so that is probably not really valid at this point either :cool:

clickerquicklic

I have a couple of questions already if anyone would be so kind as to share an opinion.

I'm looking to train for 5k speed and the Raheny 5 mile so trying to get some pace back in legs
For reference
5k pb 18.44(parkrun) two months ago.
10k pb 39.50 (fingal 10k)

I just went out and did a session I made up myself , it was cold and I didn't want to stand around doing intervals or run for too long so did
10km of 1km easy / 1km hard . I started too fast (I think ) and the latter fast splits are slower.

1 1.0 km 5:15 5:15 /km
2 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
3 1.0 km 5:26 5:26 /km
4 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
5 1.0 km 5:38 5:38 /km
6 1.0 km 3:42 3:42 /km
7 1.0 km 5:49 5:49 /km
8 1.0 km 3:50 3:50 /km
9 1.0 km 6:03 6:03 /km
10 0.7 km 2:51 3:54 /km

Am I doing the fast splits too fast and the slow splits too slow? That's my gut feeling , how fast should you do these fast splits when trying to improve 5k-10k speed do you do them at 5k pb pace or 10k pb pace or some other pace?

Thanks

Testosterscone

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I have a couple of questions already if anyone would be so kind as to share an opinion.

I'm looking to train for 5k speed and the Raheny 5 mile so trying to get some pace back in legs
For reference
5k pb 18.44(parkrun) two months ago.
10k pb 39.50 (fingal 10k)

I just went out and did a session I made up myself , it was cold and I didn't want to stand around doing intervals or run for too long so did
10km of 1km easy / 1km hard . I started too fast (I think ) and the latter fast splits are slower.

1 1.0 km 5:15 5:15 /km
2 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
3 1.0 km 5:26 5:26 /km
4 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
5 1.0 km 5:38 5:38 /km
6 1.0 km 3:42 3:42 /km
7 1.0 km 5:49 5:49 /km
8 1.0 km 3:50 3:50 /km
9 1.0 km 6:03 6:03 /km
10 0.7 km 2:51 3:54 /km

Am I doing the fast splits too fast and the slow splits too slow? That's my gut feeling , how fast should you do these fast splits when trying to improve 5k-10k speed do you do them at 5k pb pace or 10k pb pace or some other pace?

Thanks

Depends on how this session fits with the rest of your training. In terms of a strength session while giving the body a bit of a callusing effect at 5k pace it's fine at the paces as is but as you get closer to race day you would want to have similar efforts off short recovery to try and get the vo2 max desired effects.

No harm in mixing this up with 6x800m off 2 - 2.30 jog recovery at same pace

Swashbuckler

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I have a couple of questions already if anyone would be so kind as to share an opinion.

I'm looking to train for 5k speed and the Raheny 5 mile so trying to get some pace back in legs
For reference
5k pb 18.44(parkrun) two months ago.
10k pb 39.50 (fingal 10k)

I just went out and did a session I made up myself , it was cold and I didn't want to stand around doing intervals or run for too long so did
10km of 1km easy / 1km hard . I started too fast (I think ) and the latter fast splits are slower.

1 1.0 km 5:15 5:15 /km
2 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
3 1.0 km 5:26 5:26 /km
4 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
5 1.0 km 5:38 5:38 /km
6 1.0 km 3:42 3:42 /km
7 1.0 km 5:49 5:49 /km
8 1.0 km 3:50 3:50 /km
9 1.0 km 6:03 6:03 /km
10 0.7 km 2:51 3:54 /km

Am I doing the fast splits too fast and the slow splits too slow? That's my gut feeling , how fast should you do these fast splits when trying to improve 5k-10k speed do you do them at 5k pb pace or 10k pb pace or some other pace?

Thanks

I'll give my opinion on a couple of things but see what some of the more experienced guys say before running off with my advice ... lol

At first glance the main thing i see is your recovery is much too long. I can't recall doing any session where I had five or six minutes of recovery between sets. The fast pace doesn't seem all that bad to me....its pretty close to your 5k effort. So maybe similar fast pace but shorter recoveries.
Another point is a session as a standalone session doesn't mean much in my opinion. Your sessions should progress in a planned way i.e. what did you do last week and what will you do next week and so on...For example one week you might run 7 x 3mins at 5k effort with 75s recovery, the following week you might run 5 x 4mins with 90s recovery, so always progressing. (Just rough examples)

One thing I've learned is unless you have some coaching background or a great knowledge of running, don't make up sessions yourself. More often than not (and i've done it myself) you'll do it "wrong". Follow a plan....

Nice times by the way. Not far off my own PB times. Looks like you have decent speed in you.

RolandDeschain

skyblue46 wrote: »

Sub 40.....Holy Sh1t !!! I love it.

Working towards it......sub 43 within 12 months is the realistic target. But only if I start getting my training together.

Great to see we are back talking about paces!!

RolandDeschain

Don't think I'll make the Raheny 5 this year..... absolutely gutted.

clickerquicklic

Thanks lads , shorter recoveries got it ! I will follow a plan in the new year I’m just enjoying running off plan at the moment it’ll be hard to fully commit this side of Chrismas to running 4 Times a week.

I really wasn’t in the humour of running this morning so didn’t set watch up and was lazy just going off the 1km beeps , will try same again next week with 2 mins rest.

Sheep1978

Not been on much since DCM as been injured but here goes:

A: What are your next goals?

Once back after xmas, to keep up some weekly runs and sessions while finishing out the football season. Then join a club and do some proper plans and races etc.

B: What type of training do you intend to do over the winter?

With football training and games, I'll probably only get to do two runs max a week.

C: Where do you hope to see yourself to be in 12 months with your running?

In a club, with plenty more miles under the belt before I head into most likely another DCM plan.




I'm 'officially' out of action till 2018 but I think I'm going to do Jingle bells this weeks and then rest up

Sheep1978

I can't get into any of the plans as the links are blocked in work. Any chance someone has them in excel and can email to me.? Wouldn't mind a look

ariana`

Sheep1978 wrote: »

I can't get into any of the plans as the links are blocked in work. Any chance someone has them in excel and can email to me.? Wouldn't mind a look

PM me your email address and i'll send them on?

Testosterscone

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Thanks lads , shorter recoveries got it ! I will follow a plan in the new year I’m just enjoying running off plan at the moment it’ll be hard to fully commit this side of Chrismas to running 4 Times a week.

I really wasn’t in the humour of running this morning so didn’t set watch up and was lazy just going off the 1km beeps , will try same again next week with 2 mins rest.

Given that you were already flagging with such long recoveries I would say that would be too big a jump try this the next three weeks

8x600 @ race pace with 2 min rec
6x800 @ race pace with 2 min rec
5x1k @ race pace with 2 min rec

clickerquicklic

Testosterscone wrote: »

Given that you were already flagging with such long recoveries I would say that would be too big a jump try this the next three weeks

8x600 @ race pace with 2 min rec
6x800 @ race pace with 2 min rec
5x1k @ race pace with 2 min rec

Excellent will do thanks.

Damo 2k9

Glad clicker asked about that, in a really similar situation at the minute, only starting with sessions. Running with a couple people who are fairly knowledgeable runners, so have been asking many questions. First session was 4x3mins w/ 2min rec, then the following week we had only 90 seconds recovery, the 30 seconds definitely make a difference. Im glad to see ive been doing them right by running @ race pace, just need to get more miles in during the week and I should be in a decent place to get sub 19. Apart from jingle bells is there any other 5ks coming up?? Even in new year, cant get to JB which im gutted about as would love to meet up with a few of ye again.

clickerquicklic

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

Glad clicker asked about that, in a really similar situation at the minute, only starting with sessions. Running with a couple people who are fairly knowledgeable runners, so have been asking many questions. First session was 4x3mins w/ 2min rec, then the following week we had only 90 seconds recovery, the 30 seconds definitely make a difference. Im glad to see ive been doing them right by running @ race pace, just need to get more miles in during the week and I should be in a decent place to get sub 19. Apart from jingle bells is there any other 5ks coming up?? Even in new year, cant get to JB which im gutted about as would love to meet up with a few of ye again.

Fair play Damo your flying , I'm a few weeks away from been in sub 19 shape i'll target it in New Year i'm not in a mad rush ill enjoy the journey.

Not sure if Saturday mornings suit you but the Parkrun is a great practice each week great to run with others and practice different things.

Your a young buck you'll probably break 18 fairly soon after 19 , it's harder for us lads nearing 40.

Damo 2k9

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Fair play Damo your flying , I'm a few weeks away from been in sub 19 shape i'll target it in New Year i'm not in a mad rush ill enjoy the journey.

Not sure if Saturday mornings suit you but the Parkrun is a great practice each week great to run with others and practice different things.

Your a young buck you'll probably break 18 fairly soon after 19 , it's harder for us lads nearing 40.

Saturday mornings are probably the worst morning for me, work almost every saturday, had the marathon off and now next saturday off, but thats it other then weeks holidays.

Will probably push for it next weekend at parkrun tbh, legs feel great lately (apart from my foot last week).

If at 40 I can be running the times you are, ill be a very happy 40 year old!! Keep it up :cool:

El Caballo

Testosterscone wrote: »

Given that you were already flagging with such long recoveries I would say that would be too big a jump try this the next three weeks

Just want to add onto this. Specifically on what race pace means, Hope you don't mind me using your session as an example clicker. When you training at race pace, it's important not to get too mixed up on goal pace and current fitness as they can often differ especially in a situation like yours where you are coming back off a marathon and maybe not currently in PB shape. The temptation is there to push on and train at the pace of goal times or your PB pace like you did in your session heading off at sub-18:30 pace. Training at goal pace rather than current fitness can be counterproductive as the goal is to slightly nudge up your current fitness. When you run a good bit faster in these intervals than that level of fitness, you start changing the stress of a workout which also has a knock on effect on the recovery time after the session which change change the whole look you the week you had planned.

The goal behind race pace intervals is to get efficient at race pace and the intensity involved in running that session. This is applicable to every workout whether it a Marathon paced run, Tempo or race specific intervals. I wouldn't be a big fan of running goal pace workouts it is often out of reach until the last few weeks of training when you are fit to run that pace. What I'm kind of saying here is that you should let goal pace come to you as you get fitter rather than chasing it by running faster than your current fitness level.

I've made this mistake countless times myself by running intervals too hard and fading as the session went on. The goal is not to race these workouts but to teach your body to run efficiently.

clickerquicklic

El Caballo wrote: »

Just want to add onto this. Specifically on what race pace means, Hope you don't mind me using your session as an example clicker.

Please do use me as an example ! I haven't got a clue what i'm doing just out running what I think are good sessions , I'm trying to run faster than goal race pace so race pace feels ok or easier. But you can see from the drop off as the session progressed I didn't nail it , in fairness I the last 2 fast segments I was crossing roads at traffic lights and and had to cross a couple of junctions that probably slowed me a bit but I was slower for sure and feeling it.

Next plan is to do these sessions on a loop somewhere with no cars and traffic lights.

You already answered a few questions I had about training at goal pace or current fitness pace so cheers.

skyblue46

I suppose what it boils down to is that random running by feel or targeting aggressive paces may feel comfortable today and tomorrow but the cumulative affects will not be felt until weeks later. If we push too hard now there will be a price to be paid in the future. Accepted wisdom is that for a reason, it has been proven. I'm reverting to the slowly slowly catchy monkey approach. :pac:

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

I suppose what it boils down to is that random running by feel or targeting aggressive paces may feel comfortable today and tomorrow but the cumulative affects will not be felt until weeks later. If we push too hard now there will be a price to be paid in the future. Accepted wisdom is that for a reason, it has been proven. I'm reverting to the slowly slowly catchy monkey approach. :pac:

Yep, nail on head!

Running is all about sustainability and consistency. You got to pace yourself through a block of training just like you do in a race, go out too fast and you risk the wheels coming off later on. Ideally, you want to gradually nudge the level up over time. Nothing wrong with running naked though, by feel I mean:p if you have the effort dialled in for for each run.

quickbeam

I don't really get all these training plans. I think I need to join a club and have somebody give me the idiot's guide and hold my hand (metaphorically!!) while I train. I'm a graduate of C25K and Hal Higdon, so exactly the stuff that doesn't prepare me for training (as Testosterscone pointed out). I've never really "trained" before, just ran.

If I am to get serious about this, then I guess I need to learn what it's all about. Though "if" is a key word here - I took up running to lose weight and that's done. I now just want to enjoy running, enjoy the social aspect of the likes of Parkrun, and the occasional race and maintain my weight. I'd like to get better and faster - I just need to decide if the effort is worth the result?

Swashbuckler

You'll enjoy just running for now but if my experience is anything to go by you'll eventually get bored of doing the same old runs all the time.
To be honest it's not that much more effort to train right. If anything the variety keeps it interesting. But each to their own. Nothing wrong with just running for the social aspect.

Why not have a look at a plan and post any questions here? We can be the guides to help you interpret.

quickbeam

Swashbuckler wrote: »

You'll enjoy just running for now but if my experience is anything to go by you'll eventually get bored of doing the same old runs all the time.
To be honest it's not that much more effort to train right. If anything the variety keeps it interesting. But each to their own. Nothing wrong with just running for the social aspect.

Why not have a look at a plan and post any questions here? We can be the guides to help you interpret.

Yeah that's my worry. I barely know where to start with questions - hence why I thought a club might be the way to go. But if I do have any that I can ask here'll be the first place I come!

Wubble Wubble

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

Glad clicker asked about that, in a really similar situation at the minute, only starting with sessions. Running with a couple people who are fairly knowledgeable runners, so have been asking many questions. First session was 4x3mins w/ 2min rec, then the following week we had only 90 seconds recovery, the 30 seconds definitely make a difference. Im glad to see ive been doing them right by running @ race pace, just need to get more miles in during the week and I should be in a decent place to get sub 19. Apart from jingle bells is there any other 5ks coming up?? Even in new year, cant get to JB which im gutted about as would love to meet up with a few of ye again.

Damo, here's two that may be of interest....

New Year's Eve in Santry ... http://clonliffeharriersac.com/xmas-cracker-5k/
or maybe the Tom Brennan Memorial 5k on New Year's Day in the Phoenix Park.

Kellygirl

quickbeam wrote: »

I don't really get all these training plans. I think I need to join a club and have somebody give me the idiot's guide and hold my hand (metaphorically!!) while I train. I'm a graduate of C25K and Hal Higdon, so exactly the stuff that doesn't prepare me for training (as Testosterscone pointed out). I've never really "trained" before, just ran.

If I am to get serious about this, then I guess I need to learn what it's all about. Though "if" is a key word here - I took up running to lose weight and that's done. I now just want to enjoy running, enjoy the social aspect of the likes of Parkrun, and the occasional race and maintain my weight. I'd like to get better and faster - I just need to decide if the effort is worth the result?

I think that’s perfectly fine though. For some running is about racing, for others it’s about getting out of the house, for others meeting friends and having a chat, for others it’s to relieve stress etc etc. I remember reading articles about mindfulness running at one stage. No hard and fast rules for anybody. My only goal is miles at the moment and using my running time as a break and having a chat. I’m not following plan as not ready to yet. Do what makes you happy and don’t feel under pressure to follow a plan of sorts. Your plan can be to get out 4 times a week or whatever!

RayCun

quickbeam wrote: »

I now just want to enjoy running, enjoy the social aspect of the likes of Parkrun, and the occasional race and maintain my weight. I'd like to get better and faster - I just need to decide if the effort is worth the result?

Sounds like a club would be perfect - social aspect, training advice, races...

Testosterscone

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Damo, here's two that may be of interest....

New Year's Eve in Santry ... http://clonliffeharriersac.com/xmas-cracker-5k/
or maybe the Tom Brennan Memorial 5k on New Year's Day in the Phoenix Park.

Aware have a 5k also the week after JB

Baby75

skyblue46 wrote: »

I suppose what it boils down to is that random running by feel or targeting aggressive paces may feel comfortable today and tomorrow but the cumulative affects will not be felt until weeks later. If we push too hard now there will be a price to be paid in the future. Accepted wisdom is that for a reason, it has been proven. I'm reverting to the slowly slowly catchy monkey approach. :pac:

Same here, I found I was running probably tempo pace for me when out running on my own a lot since DCM unless I was running with a friend who is training for a Half, but back to making sure easy runs are easy slow runs are slow and I am looking forward to adding in other sessions to help build up speed so I can target 25 minute 5K at the end of a training plan in the new year:)

I will be honest I have no clue when I see someone put up sessions focused on increasing pace & recovery LOL well I understand a little, I just wonder how do I work that out so I can put it in to practice, I guess I need a new watch! but I am excited to try it I want to see what I can achieve

on a side note! Lost my first toenail from running the marathon:D slightly proud moment if not a yuck and that is messed up moment! :D:D

leesider77

Hi everyone. Loads of great posts to catch up on. Have the time as I’m in bed with the flu the past few days - have the energy to look at my phone now so that is progress :-) But no running or my strength exercises for past week which is frustrating. Was supposed to get an assessment from my Physio this week as well and see if I can up my distances a bit. Suppose I should just be patient and be thankful that I’m not dealing with anything too serious.

I’m doing the chi running course with cathriona mckiernan over 6 weeks and think it’s great so far. (This week was cancelled due to the flu so good timing for me) It’s amazing how a few minor things make a difference. Would recommend it if anyone was considering it.

I’m planning ahead and once I get the all clear from the Physio I really want to make an effort at getting a bit faster next year and also build a better base fitness going into the summer. Time is an issue for me so best I can fit in is 4 runs. So which ones do you think I should focus on from the plans? I’m not a speedster but think I have loads of room for improvement over half distance so am going to focus on this distance.

Finally, has anyone ran the Meath spring half. It’s two laps. Was thinking of signing up to give me something to aim for after Raheny.