DCM 2017 Graduates: Onwards and upwards!

clickerquicklic

skyblue46 wrote: »

Haha...I'll run back the course so and then turn around for the threshold. They thought I was mad in Father Collins for running past the finish and back just to reach my 25 mins tempo!

I tried a workout in parkrun before was in Malahide doing 500m fast 500m slow , the same group kept passing me then I’d sprint by them and they’d catch up and pass me and I’d sprint by them again , felt like a bit of a tool after overtaking them 4 or 5 Times so said never again ! I’m sure they left thinking “Jesus your man was competitive doesn’t like been beaten!”

skyblue46

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I tried a workout in parkrun before was in Malahide doing 500m fast 500m slow , the same group kept passing me then I’d sprint by them and they’d catch up and pass me and I’d sprint by them again , felt like a bit of a tool after overtaking them 4 or 5 Times so said never again ! I’m sure they left thinking “Jesus your man was competitive doesn’t like been beaten!”

Yeah I'm afraid of that. I just find sessions easier with other runners around. I find it much harder doing laps of the track to a pace.

El Caballo

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I tried a workout in parkrun before was in Malahide doing 500m fast 500m slow , the same group kept passing me then I’d sprint by them and they’d catch up and pass me and I’d sprint by them again , felt like a bit of a tool after overtaking them 4 or 5 Times so said never again ! I’m sure they left thinking “Jesus your man was competitive doesn’t like been beaten!”

Haha, been on the other side of the coin a few times. Ran a 5k at the end of October and settled in behind a guy who and thought" nice one, someone to work with". About a k in, his garmin started beeping like mad and he took off at an unmerciful sprint only to slow back down a minute later. Worked my back up to him gradually and just as I got onto his shoulder beep beep beep beep and he goes flying off again. He was doing 1 min on/off and everytime I just got on his shoulder heaving for air and questioning why I'm doing this to myself, he was gone off again the whole way through the race and just to add insult to injury as I was just catching up to him coming up to the finishline, he decides to sprint the last 50 metres on his off section to pip me at the line.:pac:

clickerquicklic

Yeah there’s a one guy I’ve seen who runs a 16 min 5k and he does Parkruns mostly as training sessions but if you over take him he will pass you easy , he still wants to finish first !
On that note I’ve a question , at what stage does natural ability come in ? Like I don’t see myself ever running 16 mins for 5k I don’t know what my limit will be but at what level do we say it natural ability only , can anyone train and run a sub 16 5k ? Is there a cut off point ?

El Caballo

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Yeah there’s a one guy I’ve seen who runs a 16 min 5k and he does Parkruns mostly as training sessions but if you over take him he will pass you easy , he still wants to finish first !
On that note I’ve a question , at what stage does natural ability come in ? Like I don’t see myself ever running 16 mins for 5k I don’t know what my limit will be but at what level do we say it natural ability only , can anyone train and run a sub 16 5k ? Is there a cut off point ?

The simple answer is no one knows and no can define what natural ability is. There's some people that you can see just have it and run incredible times off very little training but there's other people where it's just not obvious straight away and make take years to develop. A few examples from boards:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57772654

That's Krusty, I believe he first started posting here about 10 years ago with a 50 something minute 10k PB. Through sheer discipline and dedication over a near decade, he ended up running 2:30.01 in the Rotterdam marathon last year to finish as the first male over 45 in one of the most prestigious marathons in the World.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77354521

Claralara ran 4:28 for her first marathon in 2010. In 2013, she finished top 10 in the national championships at the Dublin marathon running 2:57 and went on to represent Ireland in the 50k World Championships

Another guy who posts here by the name of Eau Rouge ran his first marathon in something like 4:10. Took him 12 attempts to crack sub-3 and just this year ran 2:28 in Berlin.

talent may play a role in how good you can be but I'm a firm believer in that people highly underestimate how good they can be and the only way you'll find out where you run dry on natural ability is to find out for yourself through dedication over a long period of time. I've said it here before but I gaurantee you that everyone on this thread and the vast vast majority of posters on this forum have not come close to uncovering their potential and that is probably far beyond what they think is possible right now. It all comes down to how much you are willing to do.

clickerquicklic

Thanks El C , some reading ahead that Krusty log is 538 pages long , the one you linked is something about water charges , I searched training logs and found it https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055411238 incredible stuff ill have a read of that must be loads of good info.

El Caballo

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Thanks El C , some reading ahead that Krusty log is 538 pages long , the one you linked is something about water charges , I searched training logs and found it https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055411238 incredible stuff ill have a read of that must be loads of good info.

Haha, wrong search result. That link was calling the government clowns:D

Baby75

Lazare wrote: »

So. Ran that session that morning then had to go out that night for a work thing. A supplier from The Netherlands was over to bring me and my boss out on the town. Worked the next day with a banging hangover which developed into a serious case of the manflu.

Seriously though, I normally kick headcolds after a day or so but this went on and on. Abandoned parkrun, the first Saturday not running in 8 months figuring it would clear up in a day or two and I could get back into it. Went into the chest then and floored me. Ran parkrun the following week, 10 days off and coughed my lungs up. Ugh. Chest infection.

Course of antibiotics* later and I'm finally rid of it. Raheny plan is out the window sadly, December has been scratched.

I'll do three weeks of good running with a week of taper and hopefully pb but meh, it is what it is.

I'm thinking now of targeting a 10k in early April and then Dunshaughlin in June before settling back into the beast.

*You were right Sean

sounds like that Ozzy flu glad you are over it

Swashbuckler

clickerquicklic wrote:

Yeah there’s a one guy I’ve seen who runs a 16 min 5k and he does Parkruns mostly as training sessions but if you over take him he will pass you easy , he still wants to finish first ! On that note I’ve a question , at what stage does natural ability come in ? Like I don’t see myself ever running 16 mins for 5k I don’t know what my limit will be but at what level do we say it natural ability only , can anyone train and run a sub 16 5k ? Is there a cut off point ?

I agree with everything ElC said but just to add/ask why don't you see yourself running 16mins for 5k? With the right training and the right attitude why not? It's certainly one of my goals. Not a short term one but for sure it's something I want to achieve and there's nothing special about me or my running. I firmly believe if you fall in love with running and you're willing to put the time and effort in then you'd be amazed what's achievable. Look at Krusty. When you think about it, to go from sub 50 10k to where he's at now? All about attitude and a little bit of help

clickerquicklic

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I agree with everything ElC said but just to add/ask why don't you see yourself running 16mins for 5k? With the right training and the right attitude why not? It's certainly one of my goals. Not a short term one but for sure it's something I want to achieve and there's nothing special about me or my running. I firmly believe if you fall in love with running and you're willing to put the time and effort in then you'd be amazed what's achievable. Look at Krusty. When you think about it, to go from sub 50 10k to where he's at now? All about attitude and a little bit of help

Well no matter how hard I train I won't run sub 14 so there is a cut off point for everyone , I was kinda trying to figure that out. Like if you took 100 men age 20-30 and trained them for 10 years maybe a large percentage could run run sub 16 but no matter how hard some train they will never run sub 14.
So that was the basis of my question can anyone be trained to run a sub 16 ? I guess you never know until you train but obviously theres a cut off point for everyone that even with perfect training diet sleep they can never go below a certain time. Sub 16 I view as elite I just couldn't see myself ever running that fast , I won't let it limit me though and its encouraging to read Krusty's log.

Testosterscone

clickerquicklic wrote: »

So that was the basis of my question can anyone be trained to run a sub 16 ? I guess you never know until you train but obviously theres a cut off point for everyone that even with perfect training diet sleep they can never go below a certain time. Sub 16 I view as elite I just couldn't see myself ever running that fast , I won't let it limit me though and its encouraging to read Krusty's log.

I think half of the mindset comes from those around you. I have seen many around me go sub 15/16 and once you start to see that people making big gains like that it instills a belief in you.

For me personally I am of the believe that any relatively healthy male can run sub 16 (females around 17.00/17.30) Talent isn't the limiting factor is just determines how hard you have to train to get there.

I have seen guys who I wouldn't view as the most talented but who were work horses grind there way to sub 15s (even low 14s)

Remember going to college with a guy who was running 2.10s/35 min 800/10k who is now running sub 15s and low 30s.

Swashbuckler

clickerquicklic wrote:

Well no matter how hard I train I won't run sub 14 so there is a cut off point for everyone , I was kinda trying to figure that out. Like if you took 100 men age 20-30 and trained them for 10 years maybe a large percentage could run run sub 16 but no matter how hard some train they will never run sub 14. So that was the basis of my question can anyone be trained to run a sub 16 ? I guess you never know until you train but obviously theres a cut off point for everyone that even with perfect training diet sleep they can never go below a certain time. Sub 16 I view as elite I just couldn't see myself ever running that fast , I won't let it limit me though and its encouraging to read Krusty's log.

I get what you're saying but......

Firstly Sub 16 is definitely not elite.

I guess I'd look at local club runners and 5k times from races around and I see enough sub 16 times to make me believe it's achievable through effort and correct training and not natural talent. These guys are nothing special as in they're not genetic anomalies. They're just hard workers.

So to summarize my ramble I think sub 16 is achievable for most men with the right training and dedication. Sub 15 I think is another level completely.

Just my opinion though.

clickerquicklic

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I get what you're saying but......

Firstly Sub 16 is definitely not elite.

I guess I'd look at local club runners and 5k times from races around and I see enough sub 16 times to make me believe it's achievable through effort and correct training and not natural talent. These guys are nothing special as in they're not genetic anomalies. They're just hard workers.

So to summarize my ramble I think sub 16 is achievable for most men with the right training and dedication. Sub 15 I think is another level completely.

Just my opinion though.

Thanks Swash

It's not actually an ambition of mine (although it would be awesome) it's more something i've wondered , but all ye experts seem to be in agreement that sub 16 is possible with hard work ( no excuses now!).

Your flying congrats on your 30 min 5 mile your probably not a million miles off them kinda 5k times been discussed.

Swashbuckler

Thanks a mill. Yeah that race went well. As for sub 16 definitely out of reach now but it's definitely a long term target. Will be happy to get into the 17's this year.

It helps being coached by Testosterscone that's for sure.

By the way I'm far from an expert haha. Take my opinions with a pinch of salt.

Duanington

Loving this discussion about potential times....

From my own experience, we really shouldn't worry too much about limiting ourselves or at the same time, worrying too much about setting long term goals.

My first marathon was a disaster, I hobbled home after the 5 hour mark, couldn't walk for a couple of days after and packed running in for a few years.

It didn't have to be that way, it was poor planning and poor training on my behalf that gave me a poor experience of my first marathon. I just didn't train properly for it.

When I eventually did get back into running ( having realised mid 30s that I probably just wasn't going to get that call from a premiership club), I knew that if I was going to run a marathon, I couldn't make the same mistakes again and just trained harder\smarter. Found a few online forums ( including this one) and picked the brains of one or two more experienced runners.

I think I targeted a sub 4 hour marathon, trained 4-5 days a week, 40 odd miles , bit of tempo work, bit of MP stuff....and it worked

Next time around, I trained a bit harder, found I could run a bit faster for longer, I could train more often without getting injured.....another chunk taken off the marathon time.

And again...trained a bit harder, was able to train a bit harder and roped in a smart coach to help me . Guess what? Times came down

Repeated that same cycle, times continued to come down

Before I knew it, training paces and racing paces were at times that I genuinely could not fathom a couple of years previously. I can remember looking at other logs or race reports and seeing some of the paces for marathons that I could not have held over 5k at the time


Am I finished? No chance....but at the same time, I think looking too far ahead is a bit silly in this game. Stay focused on the short\medium term goals and glance ahead at the long term targets for sure but this is a hobby and one that should be enjoyed. Train hard, train smart, race well and it just happens....times come down....how far down will they come? Who knows....How hard are you willing to work is the real question. If you get a kick out of working hard and completing sessions, getting out for the tiresome 5 miler the morning after a tough session and are smart about recovery and the easier stuff then that really is half the battle.

Then there is the racing element, I can probably only think of 3 or 4 occasions where I've finished a race completely f*cked and could safely say that I left nothing out there......one of those was the Dublin marathon a couple of years ago where I actually missed my target. I knew I'd raced well though, even when the dust settled and the adrenaline died down, I knew there was nothing left to give on the day.

That doesn't happen very often - when it does, we should celebrate it and use it to guide us in future races ( easier said than done of course). How many times do we walk away from a race thinking about the few seconds lost here or the time we got boxed in and slowed a bit more than we should have....

There are a lot of people on this forum who have put together very impressive training blocks that will stay with them for the rest of their running days. I would encourage anyone to be ambitious but not silly, back yourself to at least see where a few years of hard work will take you - don't set limits, just focus on training and racing consistently.....before too long, the stuff that seemed silly is no longer silly !

Train hard, train smart, stay consistent celebrate your personal victories, learn from the races that don't go to plan and the rest will take care of itself

ariana`

Can i ask a question. I'm doing a HM in 8 weeks time. It's not a target race and I can't really settle on any kind of a plan at the moment. I'm following a loose structure of predominantly easy runs and s&c sessions. I started back into the LSRs last weekend, i did 1hr 45min @ easy pace (i covered 14.5km in that time). I didn't find this awfully long, the pace was so easy that it felt very comfortable throughout. I'm just wondering how to proceed with the LSRs over the next few weeks, i was thinking of building them up by time (adding 5-10 mins per week) and maxing out at 2hr 15min (around 19km @ my easy pace), this should cover the length of time i'll be on my feet for the HM. Does this sound reasonable or should i focus on distance for the LSR and specifically on covering the full HM distance?

I don't know if I'm making sense, i suppose it would be better if I could follow a plan but I can't seem to settle on any and i want to keep the focus on s&c.

My only HM was Oct '16, i aimed for 2hr 10min even pacing & i finished in 2:09:25. I'd like to think i could improve on that a bit if conditions on the day are reasonable.

Baby75

great post, Duanington

I am loving the fact that if you train well as some here have and you can reach a training goal

On that note, I have my first 5km of the year in 2 weeks time, I have not raced a 5km in nearly a year and I am wondering what would be my best approach I really want a 25minute PB my best was during DCM 27.55
25 minutes might possibly be a bit ambitious this time, as I would like to really aim for that after I finish the training plan getting in more speed sessions.

But what pacers should I got out with the 30 minute and move ahead or the 25 minute and try to keep them in my sights or just run my own race by feel

it's an out and back again route so good chance of a negative split

El Caballo

ariana` wrote: »

Can i ask a question. I'm doing a HM in 8 weeks time. It's not a target race and I can't really settle on any kind of a plan at the moment. I'm following a loose structure of predominantly easy runs and s&c sessions. I started back into the LSRs last weekend, i did 1hr 45min @ easy pace (i covered 14.5km in that time). I didn't find this awfully long, the pace was so easy that it felt very comfortable throughout. I'm just wondering how to proceed with the LSRs over the next few weeks, i was thinking of building them up by time (adding 5-10 mins per week) and maxing out at 2hr 15min (around 19km @ my easy pace), this should cover the length of time i'll be on my feet for the HM. Does this sound reasonable or should i focus on distance for the LSR and specifically on covering the full HM distance?

I don't know if I'm making sense, i suppose it would be better if I could follow a plan but I can't seem to settle on any and i want to keep the focus on s&c.

My only HM was Oct '16, i aimed for 2hr 10min even pacing & i finished in 2:09:25. I'd like to think i could improve on that a bit if conditions on the day are reasonable.

That sounds perfect ariana. Have you considered the base plan in the graduates link? Think it would suit you and still leave room for the S&C. The long runs might seem shorter than you want but the midweek mileage increase should even that out. Just another option for you to explore and if you do want to go down that route, I'm sure we can sort something out to with the extra 2 weeks to bring you to up to the half:)

El Caballo

Baby75 wrote: »

great post, Duanington

I am loving the fact that if you train well as some here have and you can reach a training goal

On that note, I have my first 5km of the year in 2 weeks time, I have not raced a 5km in nearly a year and I am wondering what would be my best approach I really want a 25minute PB my best was during DCM 27.55
25 minutes might possibly be a bit ambitious this time, as I would like to really aim for that after I finish the training plan getting in more speed sessions.

But what pacers should I got out with the 30 minute and move ahead or the 25 minute and try to keep them in my sights or just run my own race by feel

it's an out and back again route so good chance of a negative split

I think the best option is to run your own race baby. The sub-25 pacers may be a small bit fast for now and you'll the sub-30 pacers in your dust. I think for the 5k, even splits are usually the best option as it's short and fast enough to the point where it's hard to gain back to time you give away.

Kellygirl

Baby75 wrote: »

great post, Duanington

I am loving the fact that if you train well as some here have and you can reach a training goal

On that note, I have my first 5km of the year in 2 weeks time, I have not raced a 5km in nearly a year and I am wondering what would be my best approach I really want a 25minute PB my best was during DCM 27.55
25 minutes might possibly be a bit ambitious this time, as I would like to really aim for that after I finish the training plan getting in more speed sessions.

But what pacers should I got out with the 30 minute and move ahead or the 25 minute and try to keep them in my sights or just run my own race by feel

it's an out and back again route so good chance of a negative split

Might depend on the wind with the out and back route!

I think run your own race by feel. I tend to play with paces a bit and open a pace calculator and work out what pace you need to be doing for 26 mins maybe and go for that. I def wouldn’t go with the 30 crowd.

RolandDeschain

Duanington wrote: »

Loving this discussion about potential times....

From my own experience, we really shouldn't worry too much about limiting ourselves or at the same time, worrying too much about setting long term goals.

My first marathon was a disaster, I hobbled home after the 5 hour mark, couldn't walk for a couple of days after and packed running in for a few years.

It didn't have to be that way, it was poor planning and poor training on my behalf that gave me a poor experience of my first marathon. I just didn't train properly for it.

When I eventually did get back into running ( having realised mid 30s that I probably just wasn't going to get that call from a premiership club), I knew that if I was going to run a marathon, I couldn't make the same mistakes again and just trained harder\smarter. Found a few online forums ( including this one) and picked the brains of one or two more experienced runners.

I think I targeted a sub 4 hour marathon, trained 4-5 days a week, 40 odd miles , bit of tempo work, bit of MP stuff....and it worked

Next time around, I trained a bit harder, found I could run a bit faster for longer, I could train more often without getting injured.....another chunk taken off the marathon time.

And again...trained a bit harder, was able to train a bit harder and roped in a smart coach to help me . Guess what? Times came down

Repeated that same cycle, times continued to come down

Before I knew it, training paces and racing paces were at times that I genuinely could not fathom a couple of years previously. I can remember looking at other logs or race reports and seeing some of the paces for marathons that I could not have held over 5k at the time


Am I finished? No chance....but at the same time, I think looking too far ahead is a bit silly in this game. Stay focused on the short\medium term goals and glance ahead at the long term targets for sure but this is a hobby and one that should be enjoyed. Train hard, train smart, race well and it just happens....times come down....how far down will they come? Who knows....How hard are you willing to work is the real question. If you get a kick out of working hard and completing sessions, getting out for the tiresome 5 miler the morning after a tough session and are smart about recovery and the easier stuff then that really is half the battle.

Then there is the racing element, I can probably only think of 3 or 4 occasions where I've finished a race completely f*cked and could safely say that I left nothing out there......one of those was the Dublin marathon a couple of years ago where I actually missed my target. I knew I'd raced well though, even when the dust settled and the adrenaline died down, I knew there was nothing left to give on the day.

That doesn't happen very often - when it does, we should celebrate it and use it to guide us in future races ( easier said than done of course). How many times do we walk away from a race thinking about the few seconds lost here or the time we got boxed in and slowed a bit more than we should have....

There are a lot of people on this forum who have put together very impressive training blocks that will stay with them for the rest of their running days. I would encourage anyone to be ambitious but not silly, back yourself to at least see where a few years of hard work will take you - don't set limits, just focus on training and racing consistently.....before too long, the stuff that seemed silly is no longer silly !

Train hard, train smart, stay consistent celebrate your personal victories, learn from the races that don't go to plan and the rest will take care of itself

This is a great post. Chase progress not perfection. Going to nail this to the motivation wall.

Baby75

El Caballo wrote: »

I think the best option is to run your own race baby. The sub-25 pacers may be a small bit fast for now and you'll the sub-30 pacers in your dust. I think for the 5k, even splits are usually the best option as it's short and fast enough to the point where it's hard to gain back to time you give away.

Kellygirl wrote: »

Might depend on the wind with the out and back route!

I think run your own race by feel. I tend to play with paces a bit and open a pace calculator and work out what pace you need to be doing for 26 mins maybe and go for that. I def wouldn’t go with the 30 crowd.

I think your right, I will go by feel and see what I can do I have one advantage I know the route well
Thanks Kellygirl & El Caballo

ariana`

El Caballo wrote: »

That sounds perfect ariana. Have you considered the base plan in the graduates link? Think it would suit you and still leave room for the S&C. The long runs might seem shorter than you want but the midweek mileage increase should even that out. Just another option for you to explore and if you do want to go down that route, I'm sure we can sort something out to with the extra 2 weeks to bring you to up to the half:)

Thanks! I just had a quick look there and I think the base plan might just suit me, kind of excited to get back on a plan now

scotindublin

Well done to Ariana on her win in the end of year awards!!

Well deserved!

Baby75

scotindublin wrote: »

Well done to Ariana on her win in the end of year awards!!

Well deserved!

Yes well done Ariana

ariana`

scotindublin wrote: »

Well done to Ariana on her win in the end of year awards!!

Well deserved!

Baby75 wrote: »

Yes well done Ariana

Aw thanks folks! I'm sure the votes were all from these parts and i could think of a few other deserving folks as well but thanks you all who voted and for the nomination too

Wubble Wubble

scotindublin wrote: »

Well done to Ariana on her win in the end of year awards!!

Well deserved!

Totally deserved

Don't forget to give yourselves a pat on the back, as the DCM Novices 2017 thread won Thread Of The Year :pac:

ariana`

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Totally deserved

Don't forget to give yourselves a pat on the back, as the DCM Novices 2017 thread won Thread Of The Year :pac:

And you too Wubble! You ran the show

A lot of us are still here too which is pretty cool :cool:

We are all great

Kellygirl

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Totally deserved

Don't forget to give yourselves a pat on the back, as the DCM Novices 2017 thread won Thread Of The Year :pac:

You too WW.

And congrats again Ariana. It is very well deserved.

ariana`

I have a question on the base training plan. On Tuesdays there is a progression run, easy to MP. Do i use my actual marathon time for MP? And also is there any guideline for how to make the progressions - i was thinking for a 60 minutes progression run to take 10 seconds off the pace every 15 minutes. So for me this would be something like

1st 15: 7:00 (easy pace)
2nd 15: 6:50
3rd 15: 6:40
4th 15: 6:30 (MP)

skyblue46

ariana` wrote: »

I have a question on the base training plan. On Tuesdays there is a progression run, easy to MP. Do i use my actual marathon time for MP? And also is there any guideline for how to make the progressions - i was thinking for a 60 minutes progression run to take 10 seconds off the pace every 15 minutes. So for me this would be something like

1st 15: 7:00 (easy pace)
2nd 15: 6:50
3rd 15: 6:40
4th 15: 6:30 (MP)

Your marathon was run very conservatively so I wouldn't use it. Use the race times on the calculator perhaps. Yep then divide the time difference into 3 or 4 steps.

BrownEyes79

Hi everyone, just a quick question with regards to the graduates half marathon plan.
I was really enjoying this plan for the first 2 weeks and did all my training days. Then week 3 was Christmas week and I only got out a couple of times, I missed the mid week session and last week (4th week) I didn’t get out at all but I did do cardio and S&C at home everyday.
I’m going to get back at it this week properly but I’m wondering should I start the plan from week 1 again or continue where I left off or treat this week as week 5?

I don’t get on here as much as I’d like but I love reading back on all the posts, there’s some brilliant advice on here

Kellygirl

Are you training with a particular race in mind Browneyes? I suppose it depends on when the end date of the plan is? Remember we were always told in the novice plan not to chase missed miles or runs and just move on but it’s different if you have loads of time as such.

Kellygirl

Here I am with plan questions again. So I’m comparing the Grads plan and the Novice Boards plan and my paces from the pace calculator and I was looking at the long runs done to time in the grads plan. The longest time is 3 hours and if I was to do that at my current easy pace I would only cover 14.9 miles. Even assuming I get faster as time goes on, I would have to be going way too fast to try and get anywhere near the likes of 20 miles in 3 hours. I don’t think I could do that on race day never mind training.

I’m taking that to mean I should stick with the Boards novice plan for long run distances but maybe follow sessions from the Graduate plan. Would that make sense?

skyblue46

Kellygirl wrote: »

Here I am with plan questions again. So I’m comparing the Grads plan and the Novice Boards plan and my paces from the pace calculator and I was looking at the long runs done to time in the grads plan. The longest time is 3 hours and if I was to do that at my current easy pace I would only cover 14.9 miles. Even assuming I get faster as time goes on, I would have to be going way too fast to try and get anywhere near the likes of 20 miles in 3 hours. I don’t think I could do that on race day never mind training.

I’m taking that to mean I should stick with the Boards novice plan for long run distances but maybe follow sessions from the Graduate plan. Would that make sense?

Which graduates plan is that?

Kellygirl

skyblue46 wrote: »

Which graduates plan is that?

The ones at the start of this thread - the last two worksheets in the file are Beginner and Intermediate Marathon.

skyblue46

Kellygirl wrote: »

The ones at the start of this thread - the last two worksheets in the file are Beginner and Intermediate Marathon.

Ah yeah, the marathon ones. Well I have listened to El Cab and others and all the graduates and their concerns about pace. I'm taking a leap of faith that they are right and going with the plan. What I see, and I may be wrong, is a plan that stores fitness gains. The sessions gradually increase endurance and the ability to hold a pace. This is like money in the bank. If we want to go out on a Sunday and run too fast and too long we empty the bank account. However if we save a bit then it builds up and we can spend it all on target race day.
At the same time running is a hobby for us all. We are free to run any pace we want for our own enjoyment.

Kellygirl

A nutrition question? Do ye take gels while training? Looking at doing 1:45 mins at easy pace tomorrow so a much slower pace than I’m used to. When training for DCM I used take a gel every hour but I was going much faster too!

Testosterscone

Kellygirl wrote: »

Here I am with plan questions again. So I’m comparing the Grads plan and the Novice Boards plan and my paces from the pace calculator and I was looking at the long runs done to time in the grads plan. The longest time is 3 hours and if I was to do that at my current easy pace I would only cover 14.9 miles. Even assuming I get faster as time goes on, I would have to be going way too fast to try and get anywhere near the likes of 20 miles in 3 hours. I don’t think I could do that on race day never mind training.

I’m taking that to mean I should stick with the Boards novice plan for long run distances but maybe follow sessions from the Graduate plan. Would that make sense?

Not at all.

The 3 hour limit is done by design. Basically the idea behind this is that aerobic fitness develops faster than muscular endurance.

When your body fatigues the muscles in your hip for most people relatively new to marathon running (2-3 years of running) your form goes and unfortunately unlike say cycling or other sports where your body will shut down to protect itself (slow your cadence etc) gravity doesn't have a give and your body is taking the same pressure whether the hips have the strength or not.

As a result the risk associated with going over 3 hours vs the aerobic benefits (There is a well regarded study done years ago about the plateauing effects of runs beyond three hours in terms of aerobic benefit) are not worth it (this is why niggles crop up so much in the later stages of the likes of the Novice threads and other's relatively new to marathon training.

Even though you won't have the 20 milers done because there is more mileage throughout the week coupled with session you end up being in better shape fitness wise with just slightly less specificity. For most people this extra volume elsewhere coupled with the consistency due to lower injury risk tend to have runners better prepared for a marathon.

I did a post on this in one of the previous threads which explains the thinking behind this a bit more

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97831496&postcount=72

Another way of putting it is that currently the best marathon runner in the world will rarely run longer than 2 hours on his long run, sure he is covering more distance but if you asked him to do a 3 hour run even at what would be easy pace would amount to a 30 mile run and most would consider it too tough and counterproductive to run longer and these are athletes running 100-160 miles per week every week. Should you be training harder than them on your sunday run?

Kellygirl

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ah yeah, the marathon ones. Well I have listened to El Cab and others and all the graduates and their concerns about pace. I'm taking a leap of faith that they are right and going with the plan. What I see, and I may be wrong, is a plan that stores fitness gains. The sessions gradually increase endurance and the ability to hold a pace. This is like money in the bank. If we want to go out on a Sunday and run too fast and too long we empty the bank account. However if we save a bit then it builds up and we can spend it all on target race day.
At the same time running is a hobby for us all. We are free to run any pace we want for our own enjoyment.

Yes but you would be much faster than me for example so a 3 hour easy run for you would cover way more than it would for me and surely going into a marathon with the longest run being 15 miles would be a bit odd? I totally get there’s other days and sessions in the plan of course.

El Caballo

Sorry I haven't been able to get around to all your questions folks as I'm after been called back into work for a new contract and time isn't been so good to me. Will get get on em tomorrow when I get a chance.

skyblue46

Kellygirl wrote: »

Yes but you would be much faster than me for example so a 3 hour easy run for you would cover way more than it would for me and surely going into a marathon with the longest run being 15 miles would be a bit odd? I totally get there’s other days and sessions in the plan of course.

Testosterscone seems to have covered it. It's the accumulation of training plus the reduced injury risk. It's a question of trusting the experts. Lol.

Testosterscone

Kellygirl wrote: »

Yes but you would be much faster than me for example so a 3 hour easy run for you would cover way more than it would for me and surely going into a marathon with the longest run being 15 miles would be a bit odd? I totally get there’s other days and sessions in the plan of course.

It does take a bit of faith because it goes against the normally plans that say you must have x amount of 20 milers but I specifically designed the plan as such because I felt that the plans are flawed to the point where they are too focused about getting as many people as possible to finish the marathon rather than trying to develop the runner as much as possible in the time frame.

I made the analogy before of it being like a footballer getting a cortisone injection at half time after an injury to get through the rest of the big game without looking at the fact that playing on with the injury could ended up ruining their career.

The long runs are the most specific thing in these plans that get you conditioned to long runs (and the marathon just being an extension of this) they don't acknowledge the cost that might be associated with that. This plan is to develop you overall as a runner to get you in a better place to physically get best out of the fitness you have built up.

TBO is actually an example of this plan in action for anyone who it may be of interest

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057595189

Kellygirl

Testosterscone wrote: »

Not at all.

The 3 hour limit is done by design. Basically the idea behind this is that aerobic fitness develops faster than muscular endurance.

When your body fatigues the muscles in your hip for most people relatively new to marathon running (2-3 years of running) your form goes and unfortunately unlike say cycling or other sports where your body will shut down to protect itself (slow your cadence etc) gravity doesn't have a give and your body is taking the same pressure whether the hips have the strength or not.

As a result the risk associated with going over 3 hours vs the aerobic benefits (There is a well regarded study done years ago about the plateauing effects of runs beyond three hours in terms of aerobic benefit) are not worth it (this is why niggles crop up so much in the later stages of the likes of the Novice threads and other's relatively new to marathon training.

Even though you won't have the 20 milers done because there is more mileage throughout the week coupled with session you end up being in better shape fitness wise with just slightly less specificity. For most people this extra volume elsewhere coupled with the consistency due to lower injury risk tend to have runners better prepared for a marathon.

I did a post on this in one of the previous threads which explains the thinking behind this a bit more

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97831496&postcount=72

Another way of putting it is that currently the best marathon runner in the world will rarely run longer than 2 hours on his long run, sure he is covering more distance but if you asked him to do a 3 hour run even at what would be easy pace would amount to a 30 mile run and most would consider it too tough and counterproductive to run longer and these are athletes running 100-160 miles per week every week. Should you be training harder than them on your sunday run?

Thanks a mill for the reply Testosterscone. I’m not sure I could cover all the mileage in the plan weekly as I can really only get out 4 days at most so should I increase one of the midweek runs to keep the mileage up?

El Caballo

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104460224&postcount=2291

Time is more important than distance;)

Kellygirl

El Caballo wrote: »

Sorry I haven't been able to get around to all your questions folks as I'm after been called back into work for a new contract and time isn't been so good to me. Will get get on em tomorrow when I get a chance.

No worries at all. Good luck with the contract.

RolandDeschain

Just to give my own feedback on the graduate plans, personally I am finding the sessions really enjoyable. They are hard and tough but really fun and my favourite runs of the week.

I'm finding the easy runs a real grind. I thought the suggested easy paces were too slow but it's actually really tough to run any quicker than the suggested paces.

I have a question on S&C.....so currently doing two sessions a week. So I was in the gym yesterday and found my "easy" 1 hour run today pretty tough. Should I schedule these gym workouts after the sessions? Hard days hard, easy days easy?

skyblue46

RolandDeschain wrote: »

Just to give my own feedback on the graduate plans, personally I am finding the sessions really enjoyable. They are hard and tough but really fun and my favourite runs of the week.

I'm finding the easy runs a real grind. I thought the suggested easy paces were too slow but it's actually really tough to run any quicker than the suggested paces.

I have a question on S&C.....so currently doing two sessions a week. So I was in the gym yesterday and found my "easy" 1 hour run today pretty tough. Should I schedule these gym workouts after the sessions? Hard days hard, easy days easy?

I'll second that, I'm loving the plan and really feel the fitness and pace improving. It's a winner...and hopefully a PB in Bohermeen will prove it! :-))

Kellygirl

Testosterscone wrote: »

It does take a bit of faith because it goes against the normally plans that say you must have x amount of 20 milers but I specifically designed the plan as such because I felt that the plans are flawed to the point where they are too focused about getting as many people as possible to finish the marathon rather than trying to develop the runner as much as possible in the time frame.

I made the analogy before of it being like a footballer getting a cortisone injection at half time after an injury to get through the rest of the big game without looking at the fact that playing on with the injury could ended up ruining their career.

The long runs are the most specific thing in these plans that get you conditioned to long runs (and the marathon just being an extension of this) they don't acknowledge the cost that might be associated with that. This plan is to develop you overall as a runner to get you in a better place to physically get best out of the fitness you have built up.

TBO is actually an example of this plan in action for anyone who it may be of interest

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057595189

Just read through TBO’s training very quickly there and his race report. That’s really interesting and the longest run was 16 miles. It’s the number of runs mid week that will get me - I’d be divorced! Anyway i’ve A couple of weeks to figure it out. Base plan tomorrow!

RolandDeschain

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'll second that, I'm loving the plan and really feel the fitness and pace improving. It's a winner...and hopefully a PB in Bohermeen will prove it! :-))

I've seen your times on Strava S, you will absolutely fly around Bohermeen. I've not been massively consistent but still hoping for a good race. Then on to the River Moy half in May. I really want to have a good cut at that race.