Will Leo be the shortest serving taoiseach in history?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Here, I'll dial the subtlety down to zero......

The treatment of Fitzgerald over the next few days, weeks and months will demonstrate just how dumb the Irish electorate is.

I think calling the electorate 'dumb' after what we have seen this week is a bit rich and redolent of the arrogance displayed by FG over all this.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Eventually, when the writing was on the wall you did. But not before downplaying the significance of what was happening because your bogeymen and women started the ball rolling.
Like Frances, you forget the record.

Shinners really love a bit of the ol' revisionism.......if you go back to Friday I said I reckoned there was more to come out of the DoJ and I predicted......

Jawgap wrote: »

Frances is gone by Monday - we'll have the story about how she reflected over the weekend......spoke to family and colleagues.....before she came to the conclusion that despite having done nothing wrong she has decided to put the country, the party etc ahead of personal ambition.....blah...de blah....de blah.

Leo and MM will doubtless discuss the sequencing later - MM will opt to wait, Leo will 'dig in' on not firing her. But the reality is she's gone, she knows it and now it's just about the theatre of her departure.

.....and yes, I was right about the shinners being the noisy kids in the garden.....how many meetings did MLD or GA have with Leo to discuss Fitzgerald?

The shinners might have fired the gun but it was an FF-FG affair once the echo from that first shot faded.

As will be borne out in the next poll - MM will be the big winner from this.....

Dyr

Jawgap wrote: »

Here, I'll dial the subtlety down to zero......

The treatment of Fitzgerald over the next few days, weeks and months will demonstrate just how dumb the Irish electorate is.

And her treatment by her own party? Lol busted flush you and Francis both

Odhinn

Jawgap wrote: »

Shinners really love a bit of the ol' revisionism.......if you go back to Friday I said I reckoned there was more to come out of the DoJ and I predicted......



.....and yes, I was right about the shinners being the noisy kids in the garden.....how many meetings did MLD or GA have with Leo to discuss Fitzgerald?

The shinners might have fired the gun but it was an FF-FG affair once the echo from that first shot faded.

As will be borne out in the next poll - MM will be the big winner from this.....

Beyond satire. Anyhoo - how are the electorate going to shown to be "dumb" etc?

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

The shinners might have fired the gun but it was an FF-FG affair once the echo from that first shot faded.

As will be borne out in the next poll - MM will be the big winner from this.....

LoL were yous not slurring allover thread that ff wouldn't run with this?

That sf were not fit for government as they ran a no confidence vote....then ff cut inside them to get theirs in before sf??



Sure I guess....if yous keep changing your position eventually yous will be right?

Jawgap

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Can't agree with the dumb part, it's more to do with party allegiance than the person running for the party.
Only a fool would deny the FF/FG % of the vote is slipping slowly away.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think calling the electorate 'dumb' after what we have seen this week is a bit rich and redolent of the arrogance displayed by FG over all this.

Really, an electorate that returns Lowry, Aherne, the Healy-Raes, Mitchell-O'Connor, Adams, Ferris, Wallace, McGrath, Ross etc?

You reckon they're a modern day Athenian demos :rolleyes:

Hitman3000

Jawgap wrote:

Really, an electorate that returns Lowry, Aherne, the Healy-Raes, Mitchell-O'Connor, Adams, Ferris, Wallace, McGrath, Ross etc?

Again party allegiance plays a large part. Do you really think it doesn't?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Shinners really love a bit of the ol' revisionism.......if you go back to Friday I said I reckoned there was more to come out of the DoJ and I predicted......



.....and yes, I was right about the shinners being the noisy kids in the garden.....how many meetings did MLD or GA have with Leo to discuss Fitzgerald?

The shinners might have fired the gun but it was an FF-FG affair once the echo from that first shot faded.

As will be borne out in the next poll - MM will be the big winner from this.....

You still cannot accept that your bogeymen and women did exactly what an opposition party should do.
The fact that there is a supply and confidence deal in place prompted what happened next but Jawgap uses that to beat his bogeymen and women.
Sad.

Now, without a word out of C. Flanagan, you are starting to downplay what might happen there, depicting it as 'fighting over scraps'.
The Minister for Justice is a 'scrap'.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

LoL were yous not slurring allover thread that ff wouldn't run with this?

That sf were not fit for government as they ran a no confidence vote....then ff cut inside them to get theirs in before sf??



Sure I guess....if yous keep changing your position eventually yous will be right?

No, I said FF weren't going to follow the shinners' lead.....

Jawgap wrote: »

SF are just the noisy kids in the garden while the adults are inside talking.

No one really pays them that much heed and certainly FF aren't going to follow their lead.

Plus FF know they'll suffer the retribution of the electorate if they trigger an election - I sincerely doubt this is a hill they're willing to die on.

......as you pointed out they tabled their own no confidence motion and leveraged that into discussions with the Taoiseach.

So while MM and Leo were meeting, what were the shinners doing? Once FF got going they just became spectators.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Really, an electorate that returns Lowry, Aherne, the Healy-Raes, Mitchell-O'Connor, Adams, Ferris, Wallace, McGrath, Ross etc?

You reckon they're a modern day Athenian demos :rolleyes:

I'd have more of a problem with those who consistently return Varadkars, Martins, etc.
They and their type have harmed this country more than any of your list.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

No, I said FF weren't going to follow the shinners' lead.....



......as you pointed out they tabled their own no confidence motion and leveraged that into discussions with the Taoiseach.

So while MM and Leo were meeting, what were the shinners doing? Once FF got going they just became spectators.

There never would have been 'meetings' had SF's motion was the only one.

You are inventing the sticks to beat with now.

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

No, I said FF weren't going to follow the shinners' lead.....



......as you pointed out they tabled their own no confidence motion.

Are you drunk?


Seriously your splitting hairs....it's ok to admit yous are pure wrong like?

Jawgap

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Again party allegiance plays a large part. Do you really think it doesn't?

Thank you for proving my point!!!!!

People vote for whoever the party shove in front of them, regardless of whether the candidate is corrupt, incompetent, unengaged or unqualified.

It's practically a Pavlovian response.......especially if they are the offspring or somehow otherwise connected to some "dynasty"

FrancieBrady

Add to the whole debacle that Michael Martin may have let an incompetent minister (Flanagan) off the hook for their own political gain.

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

Are you drunk?


Seriously your splitting hairs....it's ok to admit yous are pure wrong like?

Ok.....

I'll simplify it......

The shinners tabled a no confidence motion......

FF had a choice of supporting it, going against it, abstaining or doing something else

They opted not to vote for or against it or abstain and went and did something else......the very essence of not following someone's lead.

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Ok.....

I'll simplify it......

The shinners tabled a no confidence motion......

FF had a choice of supporting it, going against it, abstaining or doing something else

The something else was the exact same thing (a no confidence vote)??


Your trying to argue againest facts like??

Who are you trying to fool here?

FrancieBrady

' Everything will be alright if I can diss the Shinners'. the Kenny mantra in full swing.

Odhinn

Jawgap wrote: »

Ok.....

I'll simplify it......

The shinners tabled a no confidence motion......

FF had a choice of supporting it, going against it, abstaining or doing something else

They opted not to vote for or against it or abstain and went and did something else......the very essence of not following someone's lead.

Jawgap, at some stage did the shinners beam you up to the mothership and 'probe' you?

FrancieBrady

Odhinn wrote: »

Jawgap, at some stage did the shinners beam you up to the mothership and 'probe' you?

Careful now. He's 'simplifying' things.

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

The something else was the exact same thing (a no confidence vote)??


Your trying to argue againest facts like??

Who are you trying to fool here?

Yes, it was precisely the same motion, lodged under the same Standing Order.....only it had no shinners names on it.

The ends and means may have been qualitatively the same, but it was engineered in a way that it would have been their motion that went before the house first, meaning they'd have got the bulk of the speaking time......then on the division it would have been their motion voted on.

It was just the optics of it......happens all time, for example how often do the opposition advance a proposal only to be told the government are already working on the issue and will put their own measure before the house?

They could take the opposition's proposal and save time and effort, but the optics require them to bring their own measure forward.

Same here, FF were never going to follow the shinners' lead and vote on their motion - they were either going to do a deal and abstain, or, as events subsequently demonstrated, plough a different furrow. The optics of FF walking through the lobbies in support of a shinner motion always meant it was never going to happen.

Skylinehead

Odhinn wrote: »

Beyond satire. Anyhoo - how are the electorate going to shown to be "dumb" etc?

Mod: What is your problem here? Knock it off. This isn't the Politics forum.

McMurphy

Jawgap wrote: »

Ok.....

I'll simplify it......

The shinners tabled a no confidence motion......

FF had a choice of supporting it, going against it, abstaining or doing something else

They opted not to vote for or against it or abstain and went and did something else......the very essence of not following someone's lead.

Jesus H Christ. Has it been reduced to this level of pettiness?

Why not just admit you got it wrong and move along.


Any news on Kelly v Flanagan spat ?

Check out @ClaireByrneLive’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/ClaireByrneLive/status/935289408919441409?s=09

I don't believe Kellys gonna let this one slide

FrancieBrady

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Jesus H Christ. Has it been reduced to this level of pettiness?

Just admit you got it wrong and move along.

Any news on Kelly v Flanagan spat ?

Check out @ClaireByrneLive’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/ClaireByrneLive/status/935289408919441409?s=09

I don't believe Kellys gonna let this one slide

Oireachtas TV still showin Children and Youth affairs discussion. RTE said he'd be on in the next hour at around 5. So anytime now I suppose

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, it was precisely the same motion, lodged under the same Standing Order.....only it had no shinners names on it.

........



Same here, FF were never going to follow the shinners' lead and vote on their motion.

Seriously

You are trying to pass this off as not following sf lead and being something completely different


....would they have gone with a no confidence vote if sf hadn't lodged there's


Your rather impressively trying to split hair three ways here :pac:.....I strongly suspect your not being serious tbh

FrancieBrady

tomwaterford wrote: »

Seriously

You are trying to pass this off as not following sf lead and being something completely different


....would they have gone with a no confidence vote if sf hadn't lodged there's


Your rather impressively trying to split hair three ways here :pac:.....I strongly suspect your not being serious tbh

Fianna Fail could have allowed SF to take the lead, and just voted against the motion or for it or abstained.

But they decided to lodge their own?

That speaks volumes about why they did that, they could not allow SF to take the lead.

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

Seriously

You are trying to pass this off as not following sf lead and being something completely different


....would they have gone with a no confidence vote if sf hadn't lodged there's


Your rather impressively trying to split hair three ways here :pac:.....I strongly suspect your not being serious tbh

No, of course they wouldn't have gone with a no confidence motion if the shinners hadn't lodged theirs.......then, as you said yourself, they cut them off p, got theirs down and ensured it would be heard in advance of the shinner one.....thus ensuring they'd get the bulk of the speaking time.

You can only do one no confidence motion every 6 months - hence their considered approach. If they tabled the motion it would have wrecked the C&S agreement and if it had fallen that would have precluded another confidence motion for 6 months......as it was, they tabled their own and leveraged that action into face time with the Taoiseach.......in other words while FF and FG were playing big boy politics, the shinners and other lesser parties were reduced to passivity.

The final act is playing out now........Waters gone......Flanagan to apologise at 7, opposition parties 6 minutes each to respond......all done by 8 before they move on to discuss re-boundarying.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fianna Fail could have allowed SF to take the lead, and just voted against the motion or for it or abstained.

But they decided to lodge their own?

That speaks volumes about why they did that, they could not allow SF to take the lead.

Yes, it's called "seizing the initiative"

Good win for them too.....MM - the played his hand well and defied his "Grand Old Duke of Cork" moniker

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

You can only do one no confidence motion every 6 months - hence their considered approach. If they tabled the motion it would have wrecked the C&S agreement and if it had fallen that would have precluded another confidence motion for 6 months......as it was, they tabled their own and leveraged that action into face time with the Taoiseach.......in other words while FF and FG were playing big boy politics, the shinners and other lesser parties were reduced to passivity.

.

They did table a no confidence vote


Only reason fg and ff was meeting Is because they are effectively part of the government (without it no government?)



All this bluster of big boy politics is a very weak move to go to,when at same time degenerating someone else for using same tactics ......

You've a remarkably inconsistent position here......all the pedantics in the world won't change this? ?

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, it's called "seizing the initiative"

Were you not trying to pass this off as doing something different mere minutes ago?

Nettle Soup

Jawgap, I am curious - what is your opinion on Sgt Maurice McCabe?

McMurphy

eagle eye

You point out a few independents and a couple of politicians with dodgy past links and then say that the electorate vote for whoever a party puts in front of them?
That doesn't make any sense to me.

Also nobody got close to an overall majority in the last election. This shows that the electorate are split and unhappy with the performance of all parties.

They voted in a lot of independents because they are dismayed by gherkin performances of the major parties.

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

They did table a no confidence vote


Only reason fg and ff was meeting Is because they are effectively part of the government (without it no government?)



All this bluster of big boy politics is a very weak move to go to,when at same time degenerating someone else for using same tactics ......

You've a remarkably inconsistent position here......all the pedantics in the world won't change this? ?

Big boy politics is power politics. FF have political power and chose to wield it. The shinners don't, so are irrelevant.


Let me simplify it for you. In car race we may both be driving cars, but if you, in trying to catch me, opt to take a different line around the track while using similar equipment, techniques and tactics you are not following my lead....

Jawgap

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Jawgap, I am curious - what is your opinion on Sgt Maurice McCabe?

A severely wronged man, and the worst of it is he was just trying to do a good job, and be a decent copper.

And the worst has still yet to come out, imo. Plus, I think the aftermath of the tribunal will be even worse again as no one will be held to account or even if they are they will only suffer notional consequences.

But this thread, to my reading, was about the political fallout from the way he's been treated and whether it would extend to it causing Leo to serve the shortest time as Taoiseach, not about the brutality of Sgt McCabe's treatment.

Hitman3000

Seems the result of this weekend is a stronger MM and Taoiseach less than 6 months in the job weakened and held in contempt by a cohort of his own party due to his nonsensical behaviour.
Gotta to admire FG they have done more to rehabilitate FF in the eye of the voter than any apologies offered by FF for past incompetence.

McMurphy

Jawgap wrote: »

Big boy politics is power politics. FF have political power and chose to wield it. The shinners don't, so are irrelevant.


Let me simplify it for you. In car race we may both be driving cars, but if you, in trying to catch me, opt to take a different line around the track while using similar equipment, techniques and tactics you are not following my lead....

Let me simplify it further.

Once the motion of no confidence by the shinners was tabled, the die was cast.

FF little bit of following the Shinners lead, but also little bit of holding a minister accountable for their cock ups is what opposition partys do tabled their own motion too (not be outdone)

FF and FG play chicken with each other, FF ultimately holding their nerve , FG - despite what Leo said , gave in and accepted Frances resignation, hours after insisting he wouldn't.

Possibly another no confidence motion will be tabled, maybe for Charlie and or Leo.

FF will prob abstain due to some behind the scenes deal, and will then be accused of hypocrisy or cowardice.

In the run up to the next election, FF and FG will tear strips off each other, Sinn Fein will highlight the actions/inaction of either of them up to, and what happens in the wake of this debacle.

Boards resident high horse brigade will continue to remind us at how the Sinn Fein vote has reached a plateau, they are irrelevant etc etc etc.

Then scratch their head when yet more of their chosen brand of political party's TDs and Ministers lose a seat here and there at the shinners expense.

As sure as night follows day.

Galwayguy35

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Jesus H Christ. Has it been reduced to this level of pettiness?

Why not just admit you got it wrong and move along.


Any news on Kelly v Flanagan spat ?

Check out @ClaireByrneLive’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/ClaireByrneLive/status/935289408919441409?s=09

I don't believe Kellys gonna let this one slide

You're right he isn't going to let it go, he was on The Last Word earlier on and he has Charlie Flanagan in his sights now.

Have to say he seems to be a guy who is genuinely looking for answers as to what exactly was going on.

McMurphy

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You're right he isn't going to let it go, he was on The Last Word earlier on and he has Charlie Flanagan in his sights now.

Have to say he seems to be a guy who is genuinely looking for answers as to what exactly was going on.

He's been tweeting today about Flanagan.

I think Kelly is a bit of a tool (he certainly was in relation to Irish water) but I have to agree, he does seem to be genuine in his quest to get the truth out there.

eagle eye

Hitman3000 wrote:

Seems the result of this weekend is a stronger MM and Taoiseach less than 6 months in the job weakened and held in contempt by a cohort of his own party due to his nonsensical behaviour. Gotta to admire FG they have done more to rehabilitate FF in the eye of the voter than any apologies offered by FF for past incompetence.

You might think this restores FF but I don't think the electorate see it that way.
They see Martin as a link to the fall of the banks and years of hardship much like they see Adams and Ferris as a link to the IRA.
Sinn Fein come out better out of this because their next leader after Adams will get respect and there are many who will vote SF with Adams and Ferris in the rear view mirror.
The biggest gainers out of this though are the independents because people are starting to become like politicians and just want to feather their own nests and forget about the running of the country.

McMurphy

Noel Waters (secretary general of the DOJ) has now "retired" with immediate effect.

Check out @rtenews’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/935567154585489408?s=09

I reckon there's more left in this tale yet.

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Seems the result of this weekend is a stronger MM and Taoiseach less than 6 months in the job weakened and held in contempt by a cohort of his own party due to his nonsensical behaviour.
Gotta to admire FG they have done more to rehabilitate FF in the eye of the voter than any apologies offered by FF for past incompetence.

If MM had the courage of his conviction, he’d have pulled the plug before now. He knows that his days are numbered. He allowed a good woman be hounded and bullied into resigning.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

If MM had the courage of his conviction, he’d have pulled the plug before now. He knows that his days are numbered. He allowed a good woman be hounded and bullied into resigning.

That was Leo was it not?
He spent all week saying he would defend her and disolve the government rather than let her go.
I wonder what happened that changed that?

White Clover

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If MM had the courage of his conviction, he’d have pulled the plug before now. He knows that his days are numbered. He allowed a good woman be hounded and bullied into resigning.

Micheal Martin is a ditherer, always has been and always will be. How many reports did he commission while in the dept of health? How many did he act on?

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

If MM had the courage of his conviction, he’d have pulled the plug before now. He knows that his days are numbered. He allowed a good woman be hounded and bullied into resigning.

The FG frape room activists are beginning to reemerge. ^^

bladespin

Deleted User wrote:

He allowed a good woman be hounded and bullied into resigning.

Ah here, seriously????

She either stood back and did nothing in total and complete dereliction of her position or lied and attempted to mislead the givernment resulting in complete embarassment of her own party and leader.

Rick Shaw

Rick Shaw wrote: »

The FG frape room activists are beginning to reemerge. ^^

Please translate

FrancieBrady

Charlie on now
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/watchoireachtastv/

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Please translate

I will when you expand on this.

He allowed a good woman be hounded and bullied into resigning.

Did you just awake from a month long deep sleep?

Odhinn

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Noel Waters (secretary general of the DOJ) has now "retired" with immediate effect.

Check out @rtenews’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/935567154585489408?s=09

I reckon there's more left in this tale yet.

He whose retirement was originally 'nothing to see here' and in no way connected to anything, anytime, anywhere, anyway.

There's also the mysterious missing minister Flanagan, and his accusations of Alan Kelly launching a personal smear campaign against him.

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Charlie on now
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/watchoireachtastv/

Lol Charlie is basically pleading with Kelly to leave him alone.

Grovelling like phuck.


Kelly won't be fooled is my guess.