Will Leo be the shortest serving taoiseach in history?

bladespin

Rick Shaw wrote:

Kelly won't be fooled is my guess.

Blood in the water now, will see if Kelly has the shark in him.

McMurphy

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Odhinn wrote: »

He whose retirement was originally 'nothing to see here' and in no way connected to anything, anytime, anywhere, anyway.

There's also the mysterious missing minister Flanagan, and his accusations of Alan Kelly launching a personal smear campaign against him.

FrancieBrady

Ok Charlie, we get it, you are busy. :rolleyes:
Excuses excuses again

Dyr

bladespin wrote: »

Blood in the water now, will see if Kelly has the shark in him.

Alan Kelly , all the charm of a shark but the memory of a goldfish, seems to have forgot he was in government with these lads back then

Venom

Bambi wrote: »

Alan Kelly , all the charm of a shark but the memory of a goldfish, seems to have forgot he was in government with these lads back then

There's plenty of sharks in these waters. I'm sure one of them will take a bite :pac:

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

Alan Kelly , all the charm of a shark but the memory of a goldfish, seems to have forgot he was in government with these lads back then

Whisht now, let the dog see the hare!

Dyr

LOL the oul FG fallback, the provies will overthrow the state if we don't allow corruption in the justice system.

bladespin

Bambi wrote:

Alan Kelly , all the charm of a shark but the memory of a goldfish, seems to have forgot he was in government with these lads back then

Lower than pond slime in my book tbh but he's slowly increasing my opinion of him.

gandalf

So Leo survived but definitely an election by next March! FF will be emboldened now and will latch onto any excuse to pull the trigger (or they'll create one!).

Odhinn

Bambi wrote: »

LOL the oul FG fallback, the provies will overthrow the state if we don't allow corruption in the justice system.

Yeah, preserve law and order, start a Garda heavy gang. Numbers off, wee bone breaker batons out.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

So Leo survived but definitely an election by next March! FF will be emboldened now and will latch onto any excuse to pull the trigger (or they'll create one!).

I have a feeling they were defending Francis for a reason. There is more to this that meets the eye and it will come out in the wash yet.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a feeling they were defending Francis for a reason. There is more to this that meets the eye and it will come out in the wash yet.

I have a feeling Charlie might have been set up for an ambush there.

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

He allowed a good woman be hounded and bullied into resigning.

Ah stop she lied and mislead the Dail. MM has been strengthened by Leo's nonsense.

ebbsy

Resignations or not, a few people have taken a standing count here.

bladespin

ebbsy wrote:

Resignatures or not, a few people have taken a standing count here.

Lame ducks by all accounts, Varadkar looks an utter numpty without a clue, Flanagan even worse. FF daggers drawn just biding time spin machine in overdrive from here on.

ebbsy

What I find interesting is that the Dept of Justice wasted no time releasing those emails.

They weren't going to be thrown underneath the bus.

McMurphy

ebbsy wrote: »

What I find interesting is that the Dept of Justice wasted no time releasing those emails.

They weren't going to be thrown underneath the bus.

Ministers are blaming incompetent civil servants in the departments, civil servants in return are taking shots across the bows of the ministers by blaming them (going by Noel Waters statement)

Be terrible if a new can of worms was opened. Whistleblowers - exposing malpractice in ministers depts.

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

Please translate

You're being accused of being a shill for FG.

Water John

Funny people saying MM is a ditherer. He called it after the last election. Took Enda a long time to see the option but Michael waited with many in his own party wondering. The same can be applied across the last week. Held his nerve.

Leo can learn from this. He exercised poor judgement, Frances should have been gone, last week. If he begins a major reform out of this, he would earn kudos.
Flanagan is now very damaged and weak, esp on this evening's performance.

Are Am Eye

C Flanagan is a shambling, mumbling, waffling, bluffer. He couldn't even
come close to answering a single of the dozen or so questions the opposition asked him. This didn't seem to perturb anyone particularly in the chamber.
The Dáil is a joke. The Irish political system is a whole bunch of dysfunctional institutions supporting each other in a chain of perpetual incompetence and dishonesty. The only reason the Tánaiste stepped aside was none of them fancied canvassing in the cold to retain their handy number.

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You're being accused of being a shill for FG.

Oh, ok. Suppose it’s better than being called a sheeple.

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

Oh, ok. Suppose it’s better than being called a sheeple.

Either is better than some of the names I have seen FG supporters use to describe those of a differing opinion tbh.

Reputable Rog

It's clear that Varadkar isn't up to the job and won't last long. Too self absorbed.
Kenny would have cut her off at the knees rather than letting it get this far.

White Clover

Water John wrote: »

Funny people saying MM is a ditherer. He called it after the last election. Took Enda a long time to see the option but Michael waited with many in his own party wondering. The same can be applied across the last week. Held his nerve.

Leo can learn from this. He exercised poor judgement, Frances should have been gone, last week. If he begins a major reform out of this, he would earn kudos.
Flanagan is now very damaged and weak, esp on this evening's performance.

It was jim o Callaghan that said they were going to table a vote of no confidence without Micheal Martin knowing anything. He's pandering to some in his own party in order to hold on and under pressure from Sinn Fein all the time. He hasn't come out of this smelling of roses either.

Water John

Where did you dig this out of? That Jim O'Callaghan went on a solo run.
Source please.

Ash.J.Williams

Are civil servants fianna Fáil?

blanch152

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Are civil servants fianna Fáil?

Labour and Fianna Fail have traditionally got a higher percentage of support from civil servants than from the general public.

lightspeed

Leo is clearly not fit to be taoiseach.

FG either has not got the nerve to govern or they must have a lot of dirt under the carpet that we have not seen yet.

Noreen O'Sullivan should have been sacked long ago but stayed despite all the scandals and eventually resigned.

Again here it should have been an easy decision last week to sack her when it was clear she had lied in the Dail regarding when she first knew of the strategy being pursued against McCabe. Despite further emails, they still backed her to the death.

We have been told the allegation against McCabe entered onto Tusla was due to a copy and paste error. Such nonsense. Where the system controls and procedures to prevent this from occuring?

It happened under Katherine Zapones watch so how has she not been fired?

Now Charlie flanagan claims he did not understand the significance of the email. If thats true then he is not competent enough to be making decisions that affect the country.

First thing i would have done if I was Leo within the first week of becoming Taoiseach is find everyone who had anything to do with the McCabe affair and sack all of them.

Nettle Soup

Are Am Eye wrote: »

C Flanagan is a shambling, mumbling, waffling, bluffer. He couldn't even
come close to answering a single of the dozen or so questions the opposition asked him. This didn't seem to perturb anyone particularly in the chamber.
The Dáil is a joke. The Irish political system is a whole bunch of dysfunctional institutions supporting each other in a chain of perpetual incompetence and dishonesty. The only reason the Tánaiste stepped aside was none of them fancied canvassing in the cold to retain their handy number.

I can't argue with any of that.

Nettle Soup

I keep hearing FG supporters on the radio saying that Fitzgerald will be vindicated and that she was scapegoated. Even Leo is still saying she did nothing wrong.

She lied to the Dail and withheld crucial information from the Tribunal.
That will never change. That is on her record.

Widdershins

lightspeed wrote: »

Leo is clearly not fit to be taoiseach.

FG either has not got the nerve to govern or they must have a lot of dirt under the carpet that we have not seen yet.

Noreen O'Sullivan should have been sacked long ago but stayed despite all the scandals and eventually resigned.

Again here it should have been an easy decision last week to sack her when it was clear she had lied in the Dail regarding when she first knew of the strategy being pursued against McCabe. Despite further emails, they still backed her to the death.

We have been told the allegation against McCabe entered onto Tusla was due to a copy and paste error. Such nonsense. Where the system controls and procedures to prevent this from occuring?

It happened under Katherine Zapones watch so how has she not been fired?

Now Charlie flanagan claims he did not understand the significance of the email. If thats true then he is not competent enough to be making decisions that affect the country.

First thing i would have done if I was Leo within the first week of becoming Taoiseach is find everyone who had anything to do with the McCabe affair and sack all of them.

A copy and paste error. Well that's one way of putting it. As if no human was involved. Has AI taken over their computer systems?

tobsey

lightspeed wrote: »

Leo is clearly not fit to be taoiseach.

FG either has not got the nerve to govern or they must have a lot of dirt under the carpet that we have not seen yet.

Noreen O'Sullivan should have been sacked long ago but stayed despite all the scandals and eventually resigned.

Again here it should have been an easy decision last week to sack her when it was clear she had lied in the Dail regarding when she first knew of the strategy being pursued against McCabe. Despite further emails, they still backed her to the death.

We have been told the allegation against McCabe entered onto Tusla was due to a copy and paste error. Such nonsense. Where the system controls and procedures to prevent this from occuring?

It happened under Katherine Zapones watch so how has she not been fired?

Now Charlie flanagan claims he did not understand the significance of the email. If thats true then he is not competent enough to be making decisions that affect the country.

First thing i would have done if I was Leo within the first week of becoming Taoiseach is find everyone who had anything to do with the McCabe affair and sack all of them.

Not all of McCabe's claims were upheld in the O'Higgins report.
It's not unreasonable for an accused party to establish a defence in an inquiry.
The counsel for the Gardai didn't use the strategy to question McCabe's motives in the end.
If a whistleblower comes forward, they should be protected, and have their claims investigated fully, from both sides of the argument.
Fitzgerald did not support or condone the strategy in any way, she took no action when made aware of it.
She misled the Dail on when she found out about it. She did not at any time agree or support the strategy.
She was coached on how to answer a question about it, because she should not take a stance or try to influence the Gardas stance on the matter.

How is Zappone responsible for some staff member in Tusla placing a document in the wrong file? How is Zappone supposed to have any visibility of this?

If Flanagan said he didn't understand the significance of the email I'm not surprised. Most commenters have misquoted the email since it emerged. People were saying it added further weight to the the false allegations against McCabe. That's not what it said. It said that it could be argued that McCabe was retaliating for having an investigation against him. It did not in any way say that the original allegations were true. In any case the strategy wasn't used!

bladespin

tobsey wrote: »

Fitzgerald did not support or condone the strategy in any way, she took no action when made aware of it.
She misled the Dail on when she found out about it. She did not at any time agree or support the strategy.
She was coached on how to answer a question about it, because she should not take a stance or try to influence the Gardas stance on the matter.

The smoking gun, betcha Leo wishes she's done her duty there

Nettle Soup

Water John wrote: »

Where did you dig this out of? That Jim O'Callaghan went on a solo run.
Source please.

No it was not a solo run. He is the FF spokesman for justice. He was the right person to make those statements on the 6 news.

Nettle Soup

tobsey wrote: »

Not all of McCabe's claims were upheld in the O'Higgins report.
It's not unreasonable for an accused party to establish a defence in an inquiry.
The counsel for the Gardai didn't use the strategy to question McCabe's motives in the end.
If a whistleblower comes forward, they should be protected, and have their claims investigated fully, from both sides of the argument.
Fitzgerald did not support or condone the strategy in any way, she took no action when made aware of it.
She misled the Dail on when she found out about it. She did not at any time agree or support the strategy.
She was coached on how to answer a question about it, because she should not take a stance or try to influence the Gardas stance on the matter.

Whoah there horsey!

Explain the bit in bold please.

My understanding is that they did go after McCabe's motive aggressively (e.g. 2 senior Gardaí lying about the meeting in Mullingar) but after McCabe produced the tape...the strategy fell apart and they looked like idiots. I believe the word used at the time was "climbdown".

After examining it, Mr Justice O'Higgins found that the garda's allegation that Sgt McCabe said he was motivated by malice did not tally with what was recorded on the tape.

"Some people, wrongly and unfairly, cast aspersions on Sgt McCabe's motives; others were ambivalent about them," the report said. It went on to say that Sgt McCabe acted out of legitimate concerns, that he had shown courage, and performed a genuine public service at considerable personal cost.

Roger_007

There is no doubt that Fitzgerald misled the Dail and as such she had to go. But there are outstanding matters that we have no clarity on:-

Does anyone actually know if Fitzgerald knew for certain that there was no substance or truth to the allegations that the Gardai were proposing to use against McCabe?
The whole hypocrisy case against Fitzgerald is based on the assumption that she would have, or should have, known the allegations were false and raising them at the Inquiry amounted to a smear campaign and that she was prepared to go along with that strategy.
How would she have known whether the allegations were true or false?

Nettle Soup

Roger_007 wrote: »

There is no doubt that Fitzgerald misled the Dail and as such she had to go. But there are outstanding matters that we have no clarity on:-

Does anyone actually know if Fitzgerald knew for certain that there was no substance or truth to the allegations that the Gardai were proposing to use against McCabe?
The whole hypocrisy case against Fitzgerald is based on the assumption that she would have, or should have, known the allegations were false and raising them at the Inquiry amounted to a smear campaign and that she was prepared to go along with that strategy.
How would she have known whether the allegations were true or false?

Ah now, come on - the so called "malice" smear was related to the fake 2006 "abuse" claim (Mrs D & her Garda father) that had already been thrown out by the DPP.

The malice was based off a lie and other lies about his statements during a meeting with senior Gardaí in Mullingar (the 2 idiots said he confessed to malice until he produced the tape ).

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/08/31/the-smearing/

I am so glad this story breaks again and again so that people can ask these questions. It is hard to believe what they did to McCabe.

McMurphy

Roger_007 wrote: »

There is no doubt that Fitzgerald misled the Dail and as such she had to go. But there are outstanding matters that we have no clarity on:-

Does anyone actually know if Fitzgerald knew for certain that there was no substance or truth to the allegations that the Gardai were proposing to use against McCabe?
The whole hypocrisy case against Fitzgerald is based on the assumption that she would have, or should have, known the allegations were false and raising them at the Inquiry amounted to a smear campaign and that she was prepared to go along with that strategy.
How would she have known whether the allegations were true or false?

Doesn't matter one iota. She knew of the campaign to discredit McCabe, yet simultaneously (with the commissioner) publicly praisedsaid whistleblower and pledged to support him.

She also said she had full confidence in Garda commissioner whenever she undeniably was made aware McCabe was almost stitched up.

When she had the chance, Frances Fitzgerald did nothing

The publication last night of emails from the trawl of documents in the Department of Justice has thrown up serious questions about Frances Fitzgerald’s knowledge of the attack on Sgt Maurice McCabe at the O’Higgins commission.

We already knew she was informed in May 2015 of the legal strategy being adopted.

Last night it emerged in damning documents that she was also made aware in July 2015 that the Garda commissioner had an “aggressive stance” towards Sgt McCabe at O’Higgins.

She did nothing about it.

Her advice was that evidence at the commission was bound by a confidentiality law.

However, that wouldn’t have prevented her asking the most basic question of the garda commissioner: Are you going after a man whom you and I have both praised for his valued contribution to the An Garda Sh? That’s the only conclusion that can be reached following the publication of correspondence last night.

The trawl uncovered an email prepared to respond to a query from RTreporter John Burke on July 4, 2015. By then, the O’Higgins commission was well under way behind closed doors.

The attempt to question Sgt McCabe’s motives in May of that year had passed with the garda sergeant producing a recording of a contentious meeting.

Thereafter, an aggressive approach was indeed adopted by counsel for the gardaowards Sgt McCabe for the remaining 29 days of hearings, which ran until November of that year.

Odhinn

Roger_007 wrote: »

There is no doubt that Fitzgerald misled the Dail and as such she had to go. But there are outstanding matters that we have no clarity on:-

Does anyone actually know if Fitzgerald knew for certain that there was no substance or truth to the allegations that the Gardai were proposing to use against McCabe?
The whole hypocrisy case against Fitzgerald is based on the assumption that she would have, or should have, known the allegations were false and raising them at the Inquiry amounted to a smear campaign and that she was prepared to go along with that strategy.
How would she have known whether the allegations were true or false?

The hypocrisy is that she denied to the dail knowing anything about any strategy against mccabe when she had been briefed on it.

One can also say that after the inquiry when mccabes integrity came through intact she had no questions whatsoever for o'sullivan and continued to back her publically.

Roger_007

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Ah now, come on - the so called "malice" smear was related to the fake 2006 "abuse" claim (Mrs D & her Garda father) that had already been thrown out by the DPP.

The malice was based off a lie and other lies about his statements during a meeting with senior Gardaí in Mullingar (the 2 idiots said he confessed to malice until he produced the tape ).

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/08/31/the-smearing/

I am so glad this story breaks again and again so that people can ask these questions. It is hard to believe what they did to McCabe.

You seem to forget that the 2006 case that was thrown out by the DPP was subsequently resurrected by Tulsa bungling in 2013 as a much more serious allegation. It's possible that officials in the DOJ got wind of this and whispered in Fitzgerald's ear that McCabe was possibly not all that he seemed. We do know now that there was a whispering campaign going on.
I think it's important to know what Fitzgerald believed about McCabe at the time of the Inquiry. Did she know about the resurrected allegation and did she know that it turned out to be just a 'cut and paste' error?
A great deal depends on what she was being told at the time and by who.
I doubt that we will ever find out the full truth.

Nettle Soup

Roger_007 wrote: »

You seem to forget that the 2006 case that was thrown out by the DPP was subsequently resurrected by Tulsa bungling in 2013 as a much more serious allegation. It's possible that officials in the DOJ got wind of this and whispered in Fitzgerald's ear that McCabe was possibly not all that he seemed. We do know now that there was a whispering campaign going on.
I think it's important to know what Fitzgerald believed about McCabe at the time of the Inquiry. Did she know about the resurrected allegation and did she know that it turned out to be just a 'cut and paste' error?
A great deal depends on what she was being told at the time and by who.
I doubt that we will ever find out the full truth.

Oh I didn't forget chief - here is the 2nd part of the 1st link I gave you.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/08/27/the-smearing-continued/

Ms D made the allegation in a statement to gardai in December 2006, about 11 months after her father, Mr D, lost his position as sergeant in charge of the crime unit and was reverted to regular sergeant, following a report made by Sgt McCabe against Mr D for attending the scene of a suicide after drinking alcohol.

On August 9, 2013, after Ms D received counselling from RIAN counsellor Laura Brophy, during which Ms D repeated the 2006 claim, Ms Brophy unnecessarily re-referred – in so much as it had been previously referred and investigated – the matter to Tusla but conflated the “humping” allegation with an allegation of rape which was wholly unrelated to both Ms D and Sgt McCabe.

This allegation of rape sat in an unallocated Tusla file until May 2014 when it was simultaneously found to be a mistake and yet travelled officially all the way up to the Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan’s office – even though certain gardai involved in moving it up the chain of command knew about the 2006/2007 allegation and knew that there was no such rape allegation made by Ms D against Sgt McCabe in 2006/2007.

I think you are muddying the waters to be fair and what happened in Tusla was a disgrace. Fitzgerald would have been very dim if she didn't figure out there was a false smear campaign underway.

The rot here is all with the Gardaí, DoJ and Tusla....McCabe is completely innocent every time.

The tribunal has already heard that, within days of the mistake in the Tusla referral being discovered, the then Assistant Commissioner Kieran Kenny received an amended referral but never passed it on to Ms O’Sullivan.

The false rape allegation was still on file in the commissioner’s office until the tribunal began earlier this year.

Nettle Soup

I think if Maurice McCabe had been shot, he would have got the blame for that too.

Nettle Soup

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Doesn't matter one iota. She knew of the campaign to discredit McCabe, yet simultaneously (with the commissioner) publicly praisedsaid whistleblower and pledged to support him.

She also said she had full confidence in Garda commissioner whenever she undeniably was made aware McCabe was almost stitched up.

When she had the chance, Frances Fitzgerald did nothing

Correct, as a minister, she cannot publicly praise McCabe on behalf of the government and then stand idly by while the same man is smeared. To do nothing was wrong wrong wrong. Politically and morally.

BillyBobBS

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Correct, as a minister, she cannot publicly praise McCabe on behalf of the government and then stand idly by while the same man is smeared. To do nothing was wrong wrong wrong. Politically and morally.

FG don't have morals so for them they did nothing wrong.

Jawgap

In reply to the OP's question........

Not based on these figures he won't........(people were polled earlier this week)

https://twitter.com/damiengeoghegan/status/938522494855770112

tayto lover

That poll result wouldn't surprise me one iota. We can be a fickle nation at times.
I won't lose any sleep about it but some posters on here won't get a wink of sleep at all.

FrancieBrady

An Ireland 1 - England 0 type of bounce for him.
Good to see the people paying attention to the north. Proves those who keep claiming no-one in the south cares totally wrong.

Leo better pull this off. A hard border will bring a lot of anger.
I personally think Coveney is the one behind it all though. On top of his brief so far.

A Little Pony

I agreed with Nigel Dodds speech, a true son of Ulster. We are leaving the EU Leo, get used to it.

Jawgap

Hilarious the way people were predicting governments falling, or Flanagan resigning......plus I thought the shinners as the instigators were supposed to get the bump?

Last time FG had these kind of figures was on the eve of the GE 2011.