Opening churches for the homeless?

FutureGuy

Will put it out in the open. I'm an atheist but I would like to understand something.

There's a mosque in Dublin opening its doors to the homeless during the upcoming cold snap. This is sure to save lives.

Why isn't the Catholic Church doing the same with its churches? These people are at risk of dying and yet the church does nothing. It's not for want of space or money so why not? Why aren't mass-goers asking their local priest the question?

c_man

Well most visibly in Dublin you have the outstanding work of the Capuchins, who took in extra homeless during the last hurricane much like the Mosque did.

It's not for want of space or money so why not?

Not sure what you makes you say this, you should check out your local church's balance sheets!

But from a common sense point of view, throwing open the doors to churches without adequate provisions/volunteers etc wouldn't work.

Why aren't mass-goers asking their local priest the question?

I'm right behind the idea that local Mass goers should get more involved in charitable stuff and volunteering.

Manach

So nothing about the various Catholic charities or the various gate collections that funnel funds that benefit this and other causes? Then there is the practical problems of insurance etc. Perhaps the OP would care to lobby their local TD to open the Dail to the homeless.

wally79

Sure there are heated office blocks sitting empty every night why not open those up too?

FutureGuy

Manach wrote: »

So nothing about the various Catholic charities or the various gate collections that funnel funds that benefit this and other causes? Then there is the practical problems of insurance etc. Perhaps the OP would care to lobby their local TD to open the Dail to the homeless.

There is plenty of talk all over the place about the government doing more, but I want to focus on the contribution of the church specifically.

As an aside, I was stretching one morning outside a church after a long run and there happened to be a homeless person outside the church grounds asking for money. I think there were about a hundred people leaving and not one gave any money at all. Not a single person even acknowledged him. Just walked on by. Why do people give to the plate and not to the person outside?

wally79 wrote: »

Sure there are heated office blocks sitting empty every night why not open those up too?

Not sure that answers my question though? The question is why the Catholic Church does not open its doors for the homeless. Not office blocks, churches.

As Catholics, why aren't hundreds of people in each parish asking why it's not being done?

wally79

Because it’s not that simple

You can’t just open a building and let people in

You need heating, beds, volunteers, insurance

Why Catholics more so than anyone else?

enricoh

Maybe the mosque is looking for a bit of good pr.
It is linked to the Muslim brotherhood in egypt and other mosques have stated its a hotbed of extremism.

Theres 70 homeless charities on the go at the minute and its in all their interests to keep homelessness on the front page to raise even more funding from government.

FutureGuy

wally79 wrote: »

Because it’s not that simple

You can’t just open a building and let people in

You need heating, beds, volunteers, insurance

Why Catholics more so than anyone else?

Volunteers should be easy. Have the priest look for volunteers during service?
Heating, bedding, insurance? A few thousand maybe for a few night? Again, surely the churchgoers could pull together and raise some money.

Why Catholics? As the largest religious faction in the country, I would expect them to help the poor and the desperate in a time of need. The Muslim community in Dublin are beginning to step up but the Catholic Church keeps their doors firmly closed.

Mrs OBumble

How many churches have planning permission to allow for people to sleep there overnight?

How many have showers, beds, enough toilets for domestic use?

As for the churches aren't doing anything: how much of the country's tax-take is paid by Catholics? I'd wager it's around 78% (population proportion) - and that Catholics are paying their fair share of the homeless services the same way that other religious groups are.

Then look at the people who are working in homeless services. What religion do you think Bro Kevin, Sister Stan, Peter McVerry are? And many of their workers and volunteers?

antiskeptic

FutureGuy wrote: »

Volunteers should be easy. Have the priest look for volunteers during service?
Heating, bedding, insurance? A few thousand maybe for a few night? Again, surely the churchgoers could pull together and raise some money.

Why Catholics? As the largest religious faction in the country, I would expect them to help the poor and the desperate in a time of need. The Muslim community in Dublin are beginning to step up but the Catholic Church keeps their doors firmly closed.

It'd be too ambitious. The church today is far far removed from the church of Jesus's ambition. When he said "the poor you will always have amongst you" he didn't apparently mean anything as radical as close up and personally amongst you. A few coppers dropped in a cup from time to time will have to do for the bulk of the church

c_man

FutureGuy wrote: »

Volunteers should be easy. Have the priest look for volunteers during service?

That's not the way things work. In my experience, your average parish priest is already extremely overworked. Any groups, be they charity or general church based, are usually managed by the church members themselves and the priest gives them full backing. It's very unfair to expect them to back, manage and organise every half baked (but well meaning) proposal put forward if there isn't support for it on the ground in a practical way.

Why Catholics? As the largest religious faction in the country, I would expect them to help the poor and the desperate in a time of need.

They do. You just seem determined to ignore any of it.

lazybones32

A church isn't designed for accomodation. Inadequate toilet facilities; no washrooms; no beds; no food preparation facilities.
Who will supervise through the night? Provide security?
The most charitable organisation on this island is the RCC...and yet it isn't doing enough?

Mrs OBumble

Oh - and as for volunteers: just any old volunteer won't do. They need to be trained in social care in general, and garda vetted. They need to be trained in the specific health and safety procedures for the place.

FutureGuy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Oh - and as for volunteers: just any old volunteer won't do. They need to be trained in social care in general, and garda vetted. They need to be trained in the specific health and safety procedures for the place.

So how come the Muslim community are able to do it? Are they breaking regulations?

lazybones32

FutureGuy wrote: »

Volunteers should be easy. Have the priest look for volunteers during service?
Heating, bedding, insurance? A few thousand maybe for a few night? Again, surely the churchgoers could pull together and raise some money.

Why Catholics? As the largest religious faction in the country, I would expect them to help the poor and the desperate in a time of need. The Muslim community in Dublin are beginning to step up but the Catholic Church keeps their doors firmly closed.

Have you opened your doors to homeless people? I'd hate to think you are encouraging others to do something you aren't willing to do...

FutureGuy

lazybones32 wrote: »

Have you opened your doors to homeless people? I'd hate to think you are encouraging others to do something you aren't willing to do...

Ah yes, judge me without having a clue as to what I have or have not done in my life.

c_man

FutureGuy wrote: »

So how come the Muslim community are able to do it? Are they breaking regulations?

So if one mosque == the Muslim community, do the huge number of Catholic homeless services, charities and shelters not == the Catholic community?

What's the line of thinking here?

lazybones32

FutureGuy wrote: »

Ah yes, judge me without having a clue as to what I have or have not done in my life.

I asked you a question. Deflecting isn't an answer.

Mancomb Seepgood

To be fair,Catholic organisations do an awful amount of work for the homeless.Sr.Stan,the Capuchin Centre,Peter McVerry and Crosscare,for example.Opening churches is problematic because of insurance and the need for qualified and vetted volunteers to be present,among other reasons.Congregations are by and large in decline and ageing (I'm sure there are exceptions).

As for the Clonskeagh mosque, it's a very well equipped building with a very large congregation.Full praise to them for being able to do what they are doing.

I'm the first to admit that Catholics and all Christians should question the system and attitudes that lead to people sleeping in the streets,or being sent from B&B to B&B.

jimmycrackcorm

FutureGuy wrote:

As an aside, I was stretching one morning outside a church after a long run and there happened to be a homeless person outside the church grounds asking for money. I think there were about a hundred people leaving and not one gave any money at all. Not a single person even acknowledged him. Just walked on by. Why do people give to the plate and not to the person outside?

A journalist did a documentary on TV not so long ago about homelessness and went under cover. He made the same point you did when he was outside mass and went in to the priest after. The priest gave him money, guess where that money came from...

There are regular collections in churches in Sundays for worthy causes and people do give generously. But they know that the money will be accounted for, whereas some random person outside might not be genuine (like maybe be a journalist).

As for the point about using churches, they're simply not suitable, nowhere to sleep and too cold, and as effective as a tent.

Stheno

c_man wrote: »

So if one mosque == the Muslim community, do the huge number of Catholic homeless services, charities and shelters not == the Catholic community?

What's the line of thinking here?

They aren't opening up the mosque they are using their events centre

How many churches have an events centre?

c_man

Stheno wrote: »

They aren't opening up the mosque they are using their events centre

How many churches have an events centre?

No idea, compounded by me not being sure what you mean by events centre either. Is a small "tea" hall with a single toilet an events centre? The kind that host weekly AA, GA, NA etc etc meetings?

Now that I've answered your question, maybe you can answer mine in that bit you've quoted?

uck51js9zml2yt

FutureGuy wrote: »

So how come the Muslim community are able to do it? Are they breaking regulations?

I suggest you direct your query to the mosque in clonskeagh...or the muslims on the world religions forum

btw...i assume you've opened your home this week and your office has opened its doors!

eviltwin

It's not just a case of opening up a church, or any building, and letting people in.

You need trained staff, people need to be vetted, experienced and qualified to deal with the vulnerable using the service, you need insurance, toilet and shower facilities, heat, food, bedding etc.

Its not fair to expect a parish priest and volunteers to accept that responsibility.

FutureGuy

eviltwin wrote: »

It's not just a case of opening up a church, or any building, and letting people in.

You need trained staff, people need to be vetted, experienced and qualified to deal with the vulnerable using the service, you need insurance, toilet and shower facilities, heat, food, bedding etc.

Its not fair to expect a parish priest and volunteers to accept that responsibility.

I think people are pulling away from my original question. If a Muslim community can open their doors for the homeless, why can't the Catholic Church?

Panrich

lazybones32 wrote: »

Have you opened your doors to homeless people? I'd hate to think you are encouraging others to do something you aren't willing to do...

I don't think that FutureGuy is a registered charity.

DickSwiveller

FutureGuy wrote: »

Volunteers should be easy. Have the priest look for volunteers during service?
Heating, bedding, insurance? A few thousand maybe for a few night? Again, surely the churchgoers could pull together and raise some money.

Why Catholics? As the largest religious faction in the country, I would expect them to help the poor and the desperate in a time of need. The Muslim community in Dublin are beginning to step up but the Catholic Church keeps their doors firmly closed.

Why not let a few homeless in to your house? The Church is under no obligation to open its doors to the homeless

Ultimate Seduction

FutureGuy wrote: »

I think people are pulling away from my original question. If a Muslim community can open their doors for the homeless, why can't the Catholic Church?

ONE mosque is not the Muslim comunity. As said earlier , they could do with a bit of good PR

DickSwiveller

I'm guessing this is just the usual antagonistic, irritating atheist ready to bash the church at any opportunity. You realize that the church does huge amounts of work for the poor - more, dare I say it, than you. Do you take in homeless people when it's cold?

DickSwiveller

Panrich wrote: »

I don't think that FutureGuy is a registered charity.

So?? Is he barred from taking people in to his house?

c_man

FutureGuy wrote: »

I think people are pulling away from my original question. If a Muslim community can open their doors for the homeless, why can't the Catholic Church?

Emm, they do. As pointed out to you again and again.

Panrich wrote: »

I don't think that FutureGuy is a registered charity.

That's fair. As a single individual he couldn't hope to do a fraction of what the Catholic Church do for homeless and those in need. But he, and all of you, could deffo help out by contributing to one of those fantastic Catholic organisations which do so very much - http://www.capuchindaycentre.ie/Capuchin_Day_Centre_2013/Capuchin_Day_Centre_-_Donations.html

c_man

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

ONE mosque is not the Muslim comunity.

No, I was told it was an events centre and not a Mosque. As though that meant something.

Stheno

c_man wrote: »

No idea, compounded by me not being sure what you mean by events centre either. Is a small "tea" hall with a single toilet an events centre? The kind that host weekly AA, GA, NA etc etc meetings?

Now that I've answered your question, maybe you can answer mine in that bit you've quoted?

I've no idea tbh but don't know of many churches with separate event centres such as they have.

The centre in Clonskeagh is not just a mosque they have several other buildings one of which they are opening

c_man

Stheno wrote: »

I've no idea tbh but don't know of many churches with separate event centres such as they have.

The centre in Clonskeagh is not just a mosque they have several other buildings one of which they are opening

*shrug* So you're not going to answer my question then? These posts seem pretty aimless tbh.

beauf

c_man wrote: »

So if one mosque == the Muslim community, do the huge number of Catholic homeless services, charities and shelters not == the Catholic community?

What's the line of thinking here?

Maybe english isn't their first language?

FutureGuy

DickSwiveller wrote: »

I'm guessing this is just the usual antagonistic, irritating atheist ready to bash the church at any opportunity. You realize that the church does huge amounts of work for the poor - more, dare I say it, than you. Do you take in homeless people when it's cold?

Have I in any way been antagonistic? I have asked a very reasonable question based on a news story over the last day. I asked it directly to members of the Catholic Church here on boards in the hope of having a good discussion rather than on After Hours. I am asking a question specifically relating to the use of churches at a time when homeless was people are likely to freeze.

You're the third of fourth person to ask if I have taken in homeless people. If I said I have done in the past, would you believe me?

Regardless, I don't have hundreds of large warm buildings at my disposal and lots of money. And yes, I'm sure a religious organisation with billions of followers would, as a group, have done more charity work than I, a single human being. Sorry, but that's a silly post.

beauf

FutureGuy wrote: »

Have I in any way been antagonistic? I have asked a very reasonable question based on a news story over the last day. I asked it directly to members of the Catholic Church here on boards in the hope of having a good discussion rather than on After Hours. I am asking a question specifically relating to the use of churches at a time when homeless was people are likely to freeze.

You're the third of fourth person to ask if I have taken in homeless people. If I said I have done in the past, would you believe me?

Regardless, I don't have hundreds of large warm buildings at my disposal and lots of money. And yes, I'm sure a religious organisation with billions of followers would, as a group, have done more charity work than I, a single human being. Sorry, but that's a silly post.

So lets be clear you think unsuitable churches are more suitable for the homeless than the existing homeless shelters and hostels provided by catholic organisations.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/new-homeless-shelters-lack-privacy-says-peter-mcverry-1.2900191

c_man

beauf wrote: »

So lets be clear you think unsuitable churches are more suitable for the homeless than the existing homeless shelters and hostels provided by catholic organisations.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/new-homeless-shelters-lack-privacy-says-peter-mcverry-1.2900191

I think you're being generous. They clearly have zero interest in actual facts on the matter.

Cork Lass

FutureGuy wrote: »

Ah yes, judge me without having a clue as to what I have or have not done in my life.

Well, one thing you’ve definitely not done is answer the question.

beauf

Cork Lass wrote: »

Well, one thing you’ve definitely not done is answer the question.

Hes not even asked a meaningful question.

Hes just confused the meaning of the word, church. He even got the bit about the Mosque wrong.

Mancomb Seepgood

More details are here: http://www.98fm.com/Clonskeagh-Mosque-To-Offer-Homeless-Shelter-During-Polar-Low

To summarise,the mosque has a large events hall,a security team,an onsite restaurant,and maintenance staff.You'd probably be hard pushed to find a city centre church with those facilities.

During Hurricane Ophelia,the Capuchin Centre stayed open for the duration to ensure that homeless people had somewhere to shelter.They may very well be doing the same this weekend.

beauf

FutureGuy wrote: »

Have I in any way been antagonistic? I have asked a very reasonable question.....

Yes. Why else ask a nonsensical question. Then insist on getting a reply, when you've already got replies.

You might aswell go into the Man City forum and ask why are they such a bad team.

Cork Lass

beauf wrote: »

Hes not even asked a meaningful question.

Hes just confused the meaning of the word, church. He even got the bit about the Mosque wrong.

Post #15. OP was asked if he’d opened his doors to the homeless.

c_man

Stupidest thread in the Christianity forum of the year perhaps?

FutureGuy

c_man wrote: »

Stupidest thread in the Christianity forum of the year perhaps?

Let me see. I ask a legit question and This is what I get....

Cork Lass wrote: »

Post #15. OP was asked if he’d opened his doors to the homeless.

beauf wrote: »

Yes. Why else ask a nonsensical question. Then insist on getting a reply, when you've already got replies.

You might aswell go into the Man City forum and ask why are they such a bad team.

Manach wrote: »

So nothing about the various Catholic charities or the various gate collections that funnel funds that benefit this and other causes? Then there is the practical problems of insurance etc. Perhaps the OP would care to lobby their local TD to open the Dail to the homeless.

wally79 wrote: »

Sure there are heated office blocks sitting empty every night why not open those up too?

lazybones32 wrote: »

Have you opened your doors to homeless people? I'd hate to think you are encouraging others to do something you aren't willing to do...

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

ONE mosque is not the Muslim comunity. As said earlier , they could do with a bit of good PR

DickSwiveller wrote: »

I'm guessing this is just the usual antagonistic, irritating atheist ready to bash the church at any opportunity. You realize that the church does huge amounts of work for the poor - more, dare I say it, than you. Do you take in homeless people when it's cold?

DickSwiveller wrote: »

So?? Is he barred from taking people in to his house?

Cork Lass wrote: »

Well, one thing you’ve definitely not done is answer the question.

Yep. I have to agree with you there. Mods, feel free to close this up as I'm clearly not going to get the discussion I was hoping for.

I'm sure if I said I had taken in people or had donated hundreds to homeless charities, I'd be believed. But I'm sure the ones asking me the question have done it far more often and donated far more than I have.

eviltwin

FutureGuy wrote: »

I think people are pulling away from my original question. If a Muslim community can open their doors for the homeless, why can't the Catholic Church?

It's one group within the Muslim community, presumably they have made sure they legally can provide the help they are offering. Plenty of Catholic people and organisations are involved in helping the homeless. There are many ways to help besides opening a church.

EirWatchr

At a recent talk when Fr. McVerry was asked whether people should let the homeless into their home, he said it'd be a very stupid thing to do! It's because you have no idea what problems you'd be letting in. Homeless shelters are about getting to know the person in a safe environment for both, their back story, building relationships and trust, discovering their problems, and ultimately helping them to get out of their situation (if they want to). And all done under legal guidelines for suitable accomodation and safeguarding to protect both the homeless and volunteers.

There are several Catholic organizations designed to do just that (Peter McVerry Trust, Capuchin Day Center, SVP hostels, Crosscare hostels, Morning Star Hostel, and so on). You may not be as aware of their work as the ICC in Clonskeagh. If the problem is now so great it now needs support from all faiths (and none), thank God, I say, for the charity of the ICC.

Any of the above organizations could use your donations of money or time to help alleviate the problem.

beauf

FutureGuy wrote: »

...The question is why the Catholic Church does not open its doors for the homeless. ....

Actually your question was why don't they open their churches specifically.

The answer is because its a moronic idea.

Tenigate

FutureGuy wrote: »

Will put it out in the open. I'm an atheist but I would like to understand something.

How many homeless people have you housed? Have you thrown open your doors?

Do ya realise most churches are fairly cold damp buildings with nowhere to sleep? The one near where i live has one toilet which can only be accessed from outside. There's also a tap on the wall outside.
Only things that might interest a homeless individual are the bottles of wine and the silverware.

Tenigate

EirWatchr wrote: »

At a recent talk when Fr. McVerry was asked whether people should let the homeless into their home, he said it'd be a very stupid thing to do! It's because you have no idea what problems you'd be letting in.

Exhibit A:. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/03/homeless-man-admits-murdering-good-samaritan-mother-son-took/

teen mums who arent fortune enough to get a council houses, recent graduates living with their parents and not fortunate enough to get jobs, and winos and junkies .. they're all lumped together as homeless. You can open as many church buildings or free rooms in your house... The problem isn't homelessness.

Nick Park

Opening up a building for a temporary few days for the homeless sounds great, but ultimately the homeless need more.

They need an accommodation plan that gets them off the street long-term.
They need food on an ongoing basis.
They need clean clothes & sleeping bags.
They need affordable accommodation units.
They need advocates like Peter McVerry who will pressurise the government to do its job.

The Catholic Church is already doing all these things.

So, since the question was why aren't 'the Catholics' doing the same thing as one mosque, the answer is that the Catholics long ago learned to help the homeless in many more effective ways.

(BTW, I am not a Catholic, but I was homeless for three years. )