The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

charlie14

unit 1 wrote: »

Again, the opposition are saying she should have done something (without actually specifying what) about the legal strategy that they were going to use.
In the end they did not use the strategy.
How could she have done something about something they did not use?
Correct me if I'm wrong but any court/tribunal works on the arguaments put before it, not ones that might be put before it but are'nt.

FFs case is so weak that its puzzling that its not exposed/ignored by the media, but then to them every problem is actually a crisis.

Seriously did you miss the O`Higgins inquiry ?

Two members of an Garda Siochana, one a chief superintendent lied, and were exposed as liars by virtue of McCabe producing a tape of the alleged conversation.
The Garda Commissioner`s case was blown out of the water at that point.

As to the "serious criminal charges" that Fitzgerald was warned, via that email, of being proposed for introduction by the Commissioner from the Attorney Generals office, if these had been introduced, (and there is nothing to suggest they would not have been if the Commissioner`s case had not been totally discredited), Fitzgerald had no intention of doing anything.
Neither by questioning their veracity, or through instruction to her own legal team on how to proceed from a Minister who was supposedly looking to protect whistleblowers from such carry on.

The fact that we now know just how scurrilous these "serious criminal charges" were, only adds to the by now many reasons why Fitzgerald should be gone.

You may choose to ignore all that, but that is what really goes to the core here.

charlie14

Nettle Soup wrote: »

It really is sick that senior Gardai would do this. Where is their honour?

Even sicker that the Minister with responsibility for An Garda Siochana was happy to sit on her hands and let it happen.

flaneur

Nobody has ever tackles the Garda issues head on and I don’t really see that changing.

You’ve a scandal - everyone wrings their hands and then nothing’s done.

Why didn’t we appoint someone from outside the organisation last time!? There was a perfect opportunity to begin to clean up the mess. Instead, it’s been allowed to fester and get worse.

McMurphy

charlie14 wrote: »

Even sicker that the Minister with responsibility for An Garda Siochana was happy to sit on her hands and let it happen.

And insisted she had full confidence on O'Sullivan
on multiple occasions since.

Soulsun

Election before or after Xmas?

charlie14

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

How are you driving proof from these two unconnected issues. At most you can only suggest some sort of unproven conspiracy.



The only excuse I can see is the attempts to ignore a proper investigation in favour of hunting with his dogs.

Total accidents and sheer coincidence in both cases I`m sure :rolleyes:

The excuses here regarding this tribunal, especially one that knew nothing about this email until now, are nothing other than another FG attempt at kicking a can down the road rather than doing what needs to be done.
Kicking Fitzgerald out the door if she won`t go under her own steam.

Do you seriously believe that the public have any faith in a FG established tribunal after what they were told on the Moriarty tribunal inquiry findings not going to gather dust when they see the findings on one particular individual leaving the State open to multi million compensation over a phone licence.?

Especially when the see this individual subsequently getting a serious discount on a vehicle that then allowed him to gain a very lucrative State contract.
Something that is now the subject of yet another inquiry.

FrancieBrady

Soulsun wrote: »

Election before or after Xmas?

Leo said he prefers to have it done before Xmas.
Make your own mind up if he was just trying to apply pressure making that comment.

gandalf

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

That's a typical fine gael supporter response. Fine gael didn't do much different and if anything were worse when they came to power.

If fine gael were really concerned about throwing the country under the bus they would tell francis fitzgerald to resign and the prospect of a general election would be gone. Instead they are standing by her so that will tell you where their priorities lie.

But I'm not a Fine Gael supporter. They didn't get any preference from me in the last election. As far as I am concerned Fitzgerald is useless but FFs posturing is only a reaction to SFs motion and nothing to do with what is best for the country.

Water John

Do I have my timeline wrong, or did not MM approach Leo on the subject, prior to
SF putting down its no confidence motion?

charlie14

On this whole Charleton Disclosures Tribunal (where coincidentally Charleton recently complain about the lack of disclosure from relevant bodies), does it not perhaps smack somewhat of political interference that it is now rushing to examine this email controversy first thing, where less than a wet week after it even became aware, like everyone else in the country. of this email.

Just a thought.

...And Justice

gandalf wrote: »

But I'm not a Fine Gael supporter. They didn't get any preference from me in the last election. As far as I am concerned Fitzgerald is useless but FFs posturing is only a reaction to SFs motion and nothing to do with what is best for the country.

I agree, Mary FF/SF Polical strategy is working out great. I can see a coalition government in the fire.

FrancieBrady

gandalf wrote: »

But I'm not a Fine Gael supporter. They didn't get any preference from me in the last election. As far as I am concerned Fitzgerald is useless but FFs posturing is only a reaction to SFs motion and nothing to do with what is best for the country.

What is best for the country is also a responsibility of FG's.

Are you saying turning a blind eye to this is best for the country?

The RedC poll shows no sign that the electorate bought the spin and excuses.

Nettle Soup

flaneur wrote: »

Nobody has ever tackles the Garda issues head on and I don’t really see that changing.

You’ve a scandal - everyone wrings their hands and then nothing’s done.

Why didn’t we appoint someone from outside the organisation last time!? There was a perfect opportunity to begin to clean up the mess. Instead, it’s been allowed to fester and get worse.

Is that because everyone, including politicians, thinks they will be targeted if they try to rock the boat?

Soulsun

Soulsun wrote: »

Election before or after Xmas?

What year?

Nettle Soup

charlie14 wrote: »

Seriously did you miss the O`Higgins inquiry ?

Two members of an Garda Siochana, one a chief superintendent lied, and were exposed as liars by virtue of McCabe producing a tape of the alleged conversation.
The Garda Commissioner`s case was blown out of the water at that point.

Are you sure that happened because the transcripts went "missing"...

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/1123/922441-politics-maurice-mccabe/

Prime Time revealed that key pages in which Mr Justice O’Higgins confirmed to the inquiry that he had reviewed the tape of the Mullingar meeting and the remarks attributed to Sgt McCabe were not on it.

The hour that was missing was the hour in which the strategy outlined by the Garda Commissioner’s legal team collapsed.
That hour was also missing from the transcript supplied to the McCabe legal team during the commission hearings.
There was no mention of this incident in the O’Higgins Commission report.

A spokesperson for the Department of Justice said: "The particular pages identified by GSOC were not among the records of the Commission deposited with the Department in the first place."

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

What year?

Looks like you reckon Fizgerald`s gone so Mary.

charlie14

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Are you sure that happened because the transcripts went "missing"...

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/1123/922441-politics-maurice-mccabe/

gandalf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is best for the country is also a responsibility of FG's.

Are you saying turning a blind eye to this is best for the country?

The RedC poll shows no sign that the electorate bought the spin and excuses.

I'm saying that taking the government down two weeks before the most important EU negotiations we have ever faced is stupidity of the highest order. If we are faced with another hung Dail it could be months before another working government is in place.

Soulsun

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Leo said he prefers to have it done before Xmas.
Make your own mind up if he was just trying to apply pressure making that comment.

Personally I'd rather they get it over with. It is a complete shambles and cannot see it being resolved. I also think MM is a weak leader.

gandalf

...And Justice wrote: »

I agree, Mary FF/SF Polical strategy is working out great. I can see a coalition government in the fire.

If FF and SF go into government I can definitely see fire!

FrancieBrady

Soulsun wrote: »

Personally I'd rather they get it over with. It is a complete shambles and cannot see it being resolved. I also think MM is a weak leader.

It's Michael's last chance to be Taoiseach IMO. He's going all in.

charlie14

gandalf wrote: »

I'm saying that taking the government down two weeks before the most important EU negotiations we have ever faced is stupidity of the highest order. If we are faced with another hung Dail it could be months before another working government is in place.

Simple solution to all of that

Either Fitzgerald resigns or she is sacked.

What should have happened straight after she landed Varadkar in the manure by allowing him to mislead the Dail regardless of all the other reasons she should be gone

Nettle Soup

gandalf wrote: »

I'm saying that taking the government down two weeks before the most important EU negotiations we have ever faced is stupidity of the highest order. If we are faced with another hung Dail it could be months before another working government is in place.

Doing nothing is working?

I am sure the civil servants do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to the EU and Brexit.

Edward M

Are FF starting to blink?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/exclusive-fianna-fil-examine-department-of-justice-documents-in-fresh-attempt-to-avoid-election-36352826.html

Soulsun

Edward M wrote: »

Are FF starting to blink?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/exclusive-fianna-fil-examine-department-of-justice-documents-in-fresh-attempt-to-avoid-election-36352826.html

FF bottlers.

flutered

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Are you sure that happened because the transcripts went "missing"...

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/1123/922441-politics-maurice-mccabe/

the stenogropher was contacted and the missing files have been located, are now advailable to the commission, on some media today and yesterday

flutered

gandalf wrote: »

I'm saying that taking the government down two weeks before the most important EU negotiations we have ever faced is stupidity of the highest order. If we are faced with another hung Dail it could be months before another working government is in place.

not really, there will be cabinet positions wages and perks advailable that always straightens politicos minds

Nettle Soup

flutered wrote: »

the stenogropher was contacted and the missing files have been located, are now advailable to the commission, on some media today and yesterday

That's not what the article I quoted said...

When the department realised they were missing they had to go back to the stenographer to source them.

Prime Time has established that there was no issue with the stenographer.
That hour had been transcribed and submitted as normal during the course of the commission.

I wonder will the stenographer get the whistleblower treatment now...

Did any other pages go missing or just that damning hour where the 2 senior Gardaí were telling porky pies???

charlie14

gandalf wrote: »

If FF and SF go into government I can definitely see fire!

Or A FG/SF coalition.

Remember the Greens have said they were approached prior to the 2002 general election by a Fine Gael delegation, including one E Kenny asking if they would act as go-between with SF with a view to forming a coalition government, and regardless to all protestations to do otherwise FG in 1992 entered government as a coalition which included Democratic Left, the political wing of the Official IRA and friends of the East German Stasi.

gandalf

Where did you see that about the greens? Lol...

There's a bigger chance of a FF\SF coalition.

TheRiverman

Varadkar and Martin need to get down off their pride high horse.We don't need an election.I certainly won't be voting if there is one,it's crazy to even contemplate it.

Nettle Soup

I used to blame the inaction on McCabe on Enda Kenny because he never ever wanted to rock the boat or make hard decisions...apart from another long running inquiry/tribunal.

I have great respect for Leo and I thought he was different but he also seems to be like a rabbit in headlights where corruption in the Gardaí is concerned.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

Correct me if I`m wrong here but even disallowing for the fact that Fitzgerald was supposed to protect whistleblowers from such scurrilous attempts at smearing, as Minister was she not also responsible as to how An Garda Siochana budget was spent ?

I haven`t heard anything to suggest the Garda Commissioners legal team were funded from anything other than An Garda Siochana budget.

On that alone I cannot see why she wouldn`t be entitled to inquire what these "serious criminal charges" were.
Other than she could have cared less that is.

Happy to correct you when you're wrong, but under what piece of legislation is Fitzgerald, as Tanaiste supposed to protect whistleblowers?

Last I checked the Garda Commissioner is the accounting officer for the Gardai and responsible for how their budget is spent.

As for the legal strategy, the Gardai Siochana, as a separate organisation are entitled to their own legal strategy in a Commission of Enquiry, even if that is in conflict with the Government's view. That is a very important point relating to the separation of powers and would become very relevant in the case of, for example, a SF Minister for Justice.

I won't pick up on the other relatively minor inaccuracies in your post.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

Or A FG/SF coalition.

Remember the Greens have said they were approached prior to the 2002 general election by a Fine Gael delegation, including one E Kenny asking if they would act as go-between with SF with a view to forming a coalition government, and regardless to all protestations to do otherwise FG in 1992 entered government as a coalition which included Democratic Left, the political wing of the Official IRA and friends of the East German Stasi.

There is no way Leo will touch SF.

...And Justice

gandalf wrote: »

If FF and SF go into government I can definitely see fire!

Yeah her political leanings are more FF than traditional SF. she's going to bring SF centre left. The Belfast boys don't matter anymore. Anyone who is opposed to this will be labelled dissidents and will join "real SF.org" the change is coming.

tayto lover

charlie14 wrote: »

Simple solution to all of that

Either Fitzgerald resigns or she is sacked.

What should have happened straight after she landed Varadkar in the manure by allowing him to mislead the Dail regardless of all the other reasons she should be gone

Not looking like the sack anyway.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1125/922736-fitzgerald-politics/

charlie14

gandalf wrote: »

Where did you see that about the greens? Lol...

There's a bigger chance of a FF\SF coalition.

Widely reported by John Gormley a few years ago and never denied by Kenny far as I recall.

I don`t see a bigger chance of a FF/SF coalition than a FG/SF coalition.
After all FG with the Democratic Left already have history in that regard.

tayto lover

TheRiverman wrote: »

Varadkar and Martin need to get down off their pride high horse.We don't need an election.I certainly won't be voting if there is one,it's crazy to even contemplate it.

If there is an election I can see FF and SF suffering for bringing it about but I don't think there will be one.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

Not looking like the sack anyway.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1125/922736-fitzgerald-politics/

That could be seen as paving the way for a 'heroic self sarcrifice'. Taking one for the team.

Water John

That had all the reading of an eulogy, by Leo. Frances knows what's required.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

If there is an election I can see FF and SF suffering for bringing it about but I don't think there will be one.

The RedC poll suggests the public aren't buying FG's version. They would take the blame therefore.

charlie14

tayto lover wrote: »

Not looking like the sack anyway.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1125/922736-fitzgerald-politics/

He didn`t say he would not accept her resignation though.

After all Callinan, Shatter or O`Sullivan weren`t "sacked" (cough cough) either.

...And Justice

tayto lover wrote: »

If there is an election I can see FF and SF suffering for bringing it about but I don't think there will be one.

Me neither, it's a dry run for Easter. SF/FF want to do business by the looks of it.

kevthegaff

FrancieBrady wrote:

The RedC poll suggests the public aren't buying FG's version. They would take the blame therefore.

And rightly so

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The RedC poll suggests the public aren't buying FG's version. They would take the blame therefore.

Red C polls are one thing an election is the real thing.

Water John

People need to factor into over reach speculation that, Michael Martin has quite a personal distaste for doing any business with SF.
I would see as one of the biggest reasons for the decline in popularity of FG prior to the last election was, how the public perceived Maurice McCabe was vilified and Govn't did not protect him.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Happy to correct you when you're wrong, but under what piece of legislation is Fitzgerald, as Tanaiste supposed to protect whistleblowers?

Last I checked the Garda Commissioner is the accounting officer for the Gardai and responsible for how their budget is spent.

As for the legal strategy, the Gardai Siochana, as a separate organisation are entitled to their own legal strategy in a Commission of Enquiry, even if that is in conflict with the Government's view. That is a very important point relating to the separation of powers and would become very relevant in the case of, for example, a SF Minister for Justice.

I won't pick up on the other relatively minor inaccuracies in your post.

So as far as you are concerned the fact that there is no legislation regarding Fitzgerald and protection for whistle blowers simply negates all her public utterance on protecting whistleblowers.

The Garda Commissioner may be the accounting officer, but similar to any business, in this case the minister controls the purse strings.

You are perfectly correct, the separation of powers is very important.
Unfortunately we have had very little evidence of that in relation to Garda Commissioners and the Dept of Justice and Equality for some time now.

Btw before you go "correcting" any other of minor inaccuracies in my post, any chance of you answering my question as to why you somehow believe both FF and SF favour a hard border ?

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

Red C polls are one thing an election is the real thing.

True, but at the moment they are the nearest thing to a fact that we have and FG have fallen.

charlie14

tayto lover wrote: »

Red C polls are one thing an election is the real thing.

Has it not been a rarity to see a governments ratings go up from the outset of a GE in relation to the final count ?

FrancieBrady

charlie14 wrote: »

So as far as you are concerned the fact that there is no legislation regarding Fitzgerald and protection for whistle blowers simply negates all her public utterance on protecting whistleblowers.

The Garda Commissioner may be the accounting officer, but similar to any business, in this case the minister controls the purse strings.

You are perfectly correct, the separation of powers is very important.
Unfortunately we have had very little evidence of that in relation to Garda Commissioners and the Dept of Justice and Equality for some time now.

Its some defence of her. She was only pretending when she 'passionately' claimed she would protect whistle blowers. (as Simon Harris called it).