The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

terenc · 25-11-2017 10:21pm

This country does not at this time need an election and if one is called because FF inability to support this government over one e-mail when as when they were in government they lost countless e-mails as for SF they seem to thrive on non government and we are cleaner then the rest just a wee bit harder to remove the blood stains.

Tell me how · 25-11-2017 10:27pm

terenc wrote: »

This country does not at this time need an election and if one is called because FF inability to support this government over one e-mail when as when they were in government they lost countless e-mails as for SF they seem to thrive on non government and we are cleaner then the rest just a wee bit harder to remove the blood stains.

What I'm surprised about is why have FF acted in this way? They're not winning any friends in the electorate doing this at this time.

They can bring down this government any time they want. The country does not need this at all now, and in my view not until after Brexit is complete.

I wonder, is there any chance that they want to be the ones sticking it to the UK throughout the negotiations and as a result, are making a grab for power now before the fun and games are over?

Sierra Oscar · 25-11-2017 10:35pm

More revelations on the way.

Seems like FG are trying to distance themselves from the goings on in the Department of Justice and say their Minister's weren't involved in the conspiracy. Time will tell I guess.

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/934533210528190467

...And Justice · 25-11-2017 10:38pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

More revelations on the way.

Seems like FG are trying to distance themselves from the goings on in the Department of Justice and say their Minister's weren't involved in the conspiracy. Time will tell I guess.

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/934533210528190467

This is a takedown of FG by FF/SF

Water John · 25-11-2017 10:39pm

Tell Me How, your over thinking things. Other are doing this too.

Really good that the DOJ is being trawled for documents and Leo and Michael will have them by Monday. That could unlock the dilemma. Hopefully lead a radical overhaul. If Leo were to promise this, with a definite timeline and ongoing briefing of Michael. This would be a major change.

Justice,,, that post is just silly. FF and SF would be sworn enemies in the Dail. Remember FF was willing to prop up a FG Govn't rather than consider going into Govn't with SF.

Tell me how · 25-11-2017 10:42pm

Water John wrote: »

Tell Me How, your over thinking things. Other are doing this too.

Really good that the DOJ is being trawled for documents and Leo and Michael will have them by Monday. That could unlock the dilemma. Hopefully lead a radical overhaul. If Leo were to promise this, with a definite timeline and ongoing briefing of Michael. This would be a major change.

I think you underestimate the capacity personal ambition has in shaping events.

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2017 10:46pm

Water John wrote: »

Tell Me How, your over thinking things. Other are doing this too.

Really good that the DOJ is being trawled for documents and Leo and Michael will have them by Monday. That could unlock the dilemma. Hopefully lead a radical overhaul. If Leo were to promise this, with a definite timeline and ongoing briefing of Michael. This would be a major change.

Justice,,, that post is just silly. FF and SF would be sworn enemies in the Dail. Remember FF was willing to prop up a FG Govn't rather than consider going into Govn't with SF.

How can we trust that the DOJ will hand everything over?

charlie14 · 25-11-2017 10:54pm

Tell me how wrote: »

What I'm surprised about is why have FF acted in this way? They're not winning any friends in the electorate doing this at this time.

They can bring down this government any time they want. The country does not need this at all now, and in my view not until after Brexit is complete.

I wonder, is there any chance that they want to be the ones sticking it to the UK throughout the negotiations and as a result, are making a grab for power now before the fun and games are over?

It is a theory I suppose.

Where it falls down imo is that the only party or individuals in the Dail that appear gung-ho on a GE is FG.

The vast majority of the rest appear to believe that by her actions and in-actions, Fitzgerald should be gone.

blanch152 · 25-11-2017 10:58pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Its some defence of her. She was only pretending when she 'passionately' claimed she would protect whistle blowers. (as Simon Harris called it).

Except that the poster claims that she was "supposed" to protect the whistleblowers, as if was part of her duty or legally required.

charlie14 wrote: »

Correct me if I`m wrong here but even disallowing for the fact that Fitzgerald was supposed to protect whistleblowers from such scurrilous attempts at smearing, as Minister was she not also responsible as to how An Garda Siochana budget was spent ?

I haven`t heard anything to suggest the Garda Commissioners legal team were funded from anything other than An Garda Siochana budget.

On that alone I cannot see why she wouldn`t be entitled to inquire what these "serious criminal charges" were.
Other than she could have cared less that is.

So he was wrong, that is all. Whether it would be a good idea for her to protect whistleblowers out of the goodness of her heart is another thing.

There is an awful lot of hyperbole and misrepresentation of facts on this forum for a serious political forum.

charlie14 · 25-11-2017 10:58pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

More revelations on the way.

Seems like FG are trying to distance themselves from the goings on in the Department of Justice and say their Minister's weren't involved in the conspiracy. Time will tell I guess.

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/934533210528190467

Interesting in light of Fintan O`Toole`s column in today`s Irish Times.

blanch152 · 25-11-2017 11:00pm

charlie14 wrote: »

It is a theory I suppose.

Where it falls down imo is that the only party or individuals in the Dail that appear gung-ho on a GE is FG.

The vast majority of the rest appear to believe that by her actions and in-actions, Fitzgerald should be gone.

The Greens said it was not a resigning matter, the Independent Alliance expressed full confidence in her, PBP/AAA and many of the other independents have yet to express a view, FF are reviewing papers from the DOJ, so it is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

Berserker · 25-11-2017 11:01pm

terenc wrote: »

SF they seem to thrive on non government and we are cleaner then the rest just a wee bit harder to remove the blood stains.

Every party thrives on being in opposition. It's easy work sitting on the opposition benches complaining about everything. Labour, The Green Party, the PDs all progressed in opposition and we all know what happened to them when they went into government.

Water John wrote: »

FF and SF would be sworn enemies in the Dail. Remember FF was willing to prop up a FG Govn't rather than consider going into Govn't with SF.

SF and FF are far from sworn enemies. FG won't entertain SF but if FF need to make up the numbers to gain power after the next GE, they'll go into bed with SF. SF will do a 'u' turn and go into power as the fall guy. If Adams disappears that'll be a big help for FF when it comes to selling SF to FF members.

charlie14 · 25-11-2017 11:05pm

blanch152 wrote: »

.

So he was wrong, that is all. Whether it would be a good idea for her to protect whistleblowers out of the goodness of her heart is another thing.

There is an awful lot of hyperbole and misrepresentation of facts on this forum for a serious political forum.

As opposed to those attempting to sweep all Fitzgerald`s very public utterances on her commitments to protect Garda Siochana whistleblowers under the carpet ?

Any chance of an answer to my question regarding your utterance that FF and SF favour a hard border ??????

blanch152 · 25-11-2017 11:06pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Any chance of an answer to my question regarding your utterance that FF and SF favour a hard border ??????

There is a whole thread on why SF want a hard border, why are you asking me questions here?

Water John · 25-11-2017 11:07pm

Yes, certain parts of FF would have little problem with a FF/SF Coalition. But Michael Martin seems intent of promising, prior to any election, that it won't happen.
For it to happen, MM would probably have to stand aside.

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2017 11:08pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Except that the poster claims that she was "supposed" to protect the whistleblowers, as if was part of her duty or legally required.

So he was wrong, that is all. Whether it would be a good idea for her to protect whistleblowers out of the goodness of her heart is another thing.

There is an awful lot of hyperbole and misrepresentation of facts on this forum for a serious political forum.

he made a distinction between Fitzgerald and her as The Minister as far as I read it.

blanch152 · 25-11-2017 11:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

he made a distinction between Fitzgerald and her as The Minister as far as I read it.

Nope, didn't see that.

charlie14 · 25-11-2017 11:14pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The Greens said it was not a resigning matter, the Independent Alliance expressed full confidence in her, PBP/AAA and many of the other independents have yet to express a view, FF are reviewing papers from the DOJ, so it is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

The Independent Alliance are in government and other than FG and the Greens, nobody else has backed Fitzgerald.
Btw,it has slipped my memory how many TD`s the Greens have, so how many TD`s in total does that make out of 158 ?
I cannot see many more than that total supporting her in a vote of confidence

Berserker · 25-11-2017 11:21pm

Water John wrote: »

Yes, certain parts of FF would have little problem with a FF/SF Coalition. But Michael Martin seems intent of promising, prior to any election, that it won't happen.
For it to happen, MM would probably have to stand aside.

This is MM and FF we are talking about. He's the Mayweather of Irish politics. He'd go into coalition with SF and sell it in such a way that he'd manage to slip any digs that were thrown at him. Even VB couldn't land a glove on him. Kenny and Adams wouldn't even risk being interviewed by VB.

charlie14 · 25-11-2017 11:22pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is a whole thread on why SF want a hard border, why are you asking me questions here?

Why ?

You were the poster who posted you believed that both SF and FF were in favour of a hard border were you not ?

I have asked a number of times now why you believed this without an answer.

If you are wrong, then just admit it.

If you feel you are correct then it is a statement you should back up imo Especially in light of your comment on misinformation and hyperbole posters here.

Sierra Oscar · 25-11-2017 11:24pm

Apparently the Tánaiste met with the then Garda Commissioner the day after she received the email. She did not disclose this. Also talk about having received a phonecall the day she received the email.

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/934547108241334272

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2017 11:26pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Apparently the Tánaiste met with the then Garda Commissioner the day after she received the email. She did not disclose this. Also talk about having received a phonecall the day she received the email.

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/934547108241334272

She forgot that too?

Edward M · 25-11-2017 11:26pm

I'd say FF are caught up in an overreaction scenario now, caused by not wanting to be usurped on morals and ethics by SF.
Can you believe it of either?
FG and Varadkar are caught up in not wanting to be cast, as was the case with Kenny, in forelock tugging image to FF.
A mountain and molehill situation perhaps, I'm not aware of full facts, how many of us are given FF are considering more papers?
I can't see FG backing down now, even if Fitzgerald resigns it will now look like that, even if it is off her own bat!

Water John · 25-11-2017 11:31pm

Well FG have had a long climbdown on IW. A short one is far better, as a strategy.
Public don't mind, if they consider it, the right thing to do.

Cannot see Frances, not resigning, if that's what's necessary.

charlie14 · 25-11-2017 11:31pm

Edward M wrote: »

I'd say FF are caught up in an overreaction scenario now, caused by not wanting to be usurped on morals and ethics by SF.
Can you believe it of either?
FG and Varadkar are caught up in not wanting to be cast, as was the case with Kenny, in forelock tugging image to FF.
A mountain and molehill situation perhaps, I'm not aware of full facts, how many of us are given FF are considering more papers?
I can't see FG backing down now, even if Fitzgerald resigns it will now look like that, even if it is off her own bat!

If Fitzgerald resigns or is sacked, then there will be no vote of no confidence in her
Hence no General Election.

flaneur · 25-11-2017 11:35pm

Any possibility this could be a calculated attempt to tip Ireland into instability to get us off the NI border issue?

It’s quite an overreaction and it’s just very strangely timed, given the Irish government just started to put the boot in on the border.

There’s plenty of accusations of meddling in other democratic systems elsewhere.

Just saying ...

Berserker · 25-11-2017 11:36pm

charlie14 wrote: »

If Fitzgerald resigns or is sacked, then there will be no vote of no confidence in her
Hence no General Election.

Probably what will happen at this stage. Leo will accept it, with regret and it'll all be forgotten about by January.

flaneur wrote: »

Any possibility this could be a calculated attempt to tip Ireland into instability to get us off the NI border issue?

Say what now? If you are talking about Brexit then no. That is going to rumble on for quite some time. Even if we have an election, it'll be done and dusted in a few months and Brexit will still be a live issue.

Edward M · 25-11-2017 11:36pm

charlie14 wrote: »

If Fitzgerald resigns or is sacked, then there will be no vote of no confidence in her
Hence no General Election.

Ah FCK that, I want an election!

jd · 25-11-2017 11:40pm

Berserker wrote: »

Probably what will happen at this stage. Leo will accept it, with regret and it'll all be forgotten about by January.

And there will be an election by March, and she'll be back in the cabinet.. (presuming FG have the numbers)

Berserker · 25-11-2017 11:43pm

jd wrote: »

And there will be an election by March, and she'll be back in the cabinet.. (presuming FG have the numbers)

Nah, she'll retire. She has a nice big pension and she's nearing that age anyway.

Water John · 25-11-2017 11:44pm

Leo will not be picking her, in his next Cabinet. She won't even run for the Dail.

McMurphy · 25-11-2017 11:54pm

Edward M wrote: »

I'd say FF are caught up in an overreaction scenario now, caused by not wanting to be usurped on morals and ethics by SF.
Can you believe it of either?
FG and Varadkar are caught up in not wanting to be cast, as was the case with Kenny, in forelock tugging image to FF.
A mountain and molehill situation perhaps, I'm not aware of full facts, how many of us are given FF are considering more papers?
I can't see FG backing down now, even if Fitzgerald resigns it will now look like that, even if it is off her own bat!

Wouldn't have believed it of FG either until now.

Law and order party tag can be ripped up and thrown over the hedge by the looks of things.

charlie14 · 26-11-2017 12:20am

Berserker wrote: »

Nah, she'll retire. She has a nice big pension and she's nearing that age anyway.

She is 67 and was first elected to Dail Eireann in 1992.
She can retire with a nice fat ministerial pension, so whenever the next election is, if there is none in the immediate present based on a vote of no confidence in her, I cannot see her standing again for re-election.

jimmycrackcorm · 26-11-2017 1:22am

FrancieBrady wrote:

The RedC poll suggests the public aren't buying FG's version. They would take the blame therefore.

FrancieBrady wrote:

True, but at the moment they are the nearest thing to a fact that we have and FG have fallen.

The red C pool was conducted in the first half of the week before the storm got into full flow.

...And Justice wrote:

This is a takedown of FG by FF/SF

I think SF didn't expect that FF would go for the juggler and FF just are playing at anything you can do, I can do better.

charlie14 wrote:

The vast majority of the rest appear to believe that by her actions and in-actions, Fitzgerald should be gone.

Their reasons are simply political opportunity. Which is what most politics is about but also the reason that FG won't hang her out for.

joeysoap · 26-11-2017 1:37am

First 8 minutes

http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2017/1124/20171124_rteradio1-callanskicks-callanskic_c21277166_21277373_232_/20171124_rteradio1-callanskicks-callanskic_c21277166_21277373_232_.mp3

FrancieBrady · 26-11-2017 1:38am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The red C pool was conducted in the first half of the week before the storm got into full flow.

Fully aware of that. The public didn't buy it from the get go.

My personal opinion is the electorate know rightly what went down here. FG have made a right mess of this whole thing.

eagle eye · 26-11-2017 1:44am

Water John wrote:

Really good that the DOJ is being trawled for documents and Leo and Michael will have them by Monday. That could unlock the dilemma. Hopefully lead a radical overhaul. If Leo were to promise this, with a definite timeline and ongoing briefing of Michael. This would be a major change.

If they don't do this then you have to wonder why. Is there skeletons in the closet that Leo or the FG party don't want revealed?

jimmycrackcorm · 26-11-2017 2:16am

Sierra Oscar wrote:

Apparently the TÃ¡naiste met with the then Garda Commissioner the day after she received the email. She did not disclose this. Also talk about having received a phonecall the day she received the email.

Shocker, Minister for justice meets police chief. These two should be kept fully apart. Probably the only time they've ever meet.

Edward M wrote:

Ah FCK that, I want an election!

I don't mind either. If happily welcome a FF/SF government as it won't affect my job or family. But that's me.

FrancieBrady wrote:

My personal opinion is the electorate know rightly what went down here. FG have made a right mess of this whole thing.

Au contraire, FF have made the mess. People know it, why else would FF be spending the weekend looking over DoJ files instead of pulling the pin. Looking for an episode get out of jail card.

FrancieBrady · 26-11-2017 2:24am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Shocker, Minister for justice meets police chief. These two should be kept fully apart. Probably the only time they've ever meet.

I don't mind either. If happily welcome a FF/SF government as it won't affect my job or family. But that's me.

Au contraire, FF have made the mess. People know it, why else would FF be spending the weekend looking over DoJ files instead of pulling the pin. Looking for an episode get out of jail card.

FF 2 points up, FG 2 points down.

Tells me all I need to know about how the electorate see this.

FG have no idea how to sort this.

jimmycrackcorm · 26-11-2017 2:31am

FrancieBrady wrote:

FF 2 points up, FG 2 points down.

Every RedC pol has being going up and down. Let's see one when an election is announced and people think we are being disturbed during dinner by canvassers because of an email...

When FG politicians get asked about this, they'll simply say they set up the tribunal to get to the truth about the McCabe smears, so why did FF pull the plug?

FrancieBrady · 26-11-2017 2:42am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Every RedC pol has being going up and down. Let's see one when an election is announced and people think we are being disturbed during dinner by canvassers because of an email...

When FG politicians get asked about this, they'll simply say they set up the tribunal to get to the truth about the McCabe smears, so why did FF pull the plug?

There is as much faith in tribunals as there is in the upper echelon of the Gardai.

There was no bounce for the FG spin on this. Let's see what the public think of an election while an, at the very least, incompetent minister, is still in gainful employ.

charlie14 · 26-11-2017 4:36am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The red C pool was conducted in the first half of the week before the storm got into full flow.

I think SF didn't expect that FF would go for the juggler and FF just are playing at anything you can do, I can do better.

Their reasons are simply political opportunity. Which is what most politics is about but also the reason that FG won't hang her out for.

They Red C poll was carried out to include Thursday of this week.
The only revelations since have been that not only did Fitzgerald receive the email, at the same time her two special advisors , her private secretary and the two senior civil servants in her Department also received it.

Not much solace in that for FG in attempting to defend Fitzgerald or in the public opinion based on that poll.

Which at this stage really begs the question as to why Varadkar is standing so four square behind her when his own party TD`s a few days ago couldn`t find enough space in Dail Eireann to avoid her.

Or to put it simply in the words of old AK47, where has Flanagan the present Minister for Justice and Equality disappeared too.

charlie14 · 26-11-2017 4:50am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Every RedC pol has being going up and down. Let's see one when an election is announced and people think we are being disturbed during dinner by canvassers because of an email...

When FG politicians get asked about this, they'll simply say they set up the tribunal to get to the truth about the McCabe smears, so why did FF pull the plug?

When was the last time a government headed into a GE and came out the other end with a higher share of the vote than opinion polls gave them at the outset ?

When FG politicians get asked about this and give the tribunal line you are suggesting, after the promise of FG not letting the dust settle on the findings of the Moriarty tribunal and what ensured since, especially the involvement of a certain individual during their water charges fiasco, the very best reaction they can expect is people laughing in their faces.

Floppybits · 26-11-2017 8:24am

Its about time this whole mess with justice from the DOJ to the Gardai be put to bed. FG's handling of this from the when the issue was first raised in the Dail by Murphy, Daly and Wallace till what has come out over the last few days has been a complete and utter incompetent diaster. 2 commissioners, head of the DOJ and a minister have all been lost because of this and yet still we are not seeing an iota of change in how the goverment handles these things or any change in the behaviour of the gardai from the top down.

All FG had to do was tackle this head on but no they had to try bury it even if it meant destroying and good man and his family. McCabe and his family are the only victims in this sorry mess and it sickened me to hear the Taoiseach go on tv and paint fitzgerald as soon sort of victim after what that man has been through. Fitzgerald should have gone a long time ago, she has been out of her depth since she was appointed justice minister. Whats happening now is as a result of her poor performance as a minister and FG's unwillingness to recognise their own incompetence at handling this whole saga. You can bet your house that if roles were reversed and FG in oppsition they would be doing the exact same as FF and SF are doing now.

Its time for this country to get politicians who are not afraid to be tough and honest and meet situations and issues head on instead of this sleazy, slimey, cowardly way of doing things at the moment.

Floppybits · 26-11-2017 8:25am

What FG wouldn't give for an IW fiasco about now?.&#55357;&#56832;

Soulsun · 26-11-2017 8:39am

Floppybits wrote: »

Its about time this whole mess with justice from the DOJ to the Gardai be put to bed. FG's handling of this from the when the issue was first raised in the Dail by Murphy, Daly and Wallace till what has come out over the last few days has been a complete and utter incompetent diaster. 2 commissioners, head of the DOJ and a minister have all been lost because of this and yet still we are not seeing an iota of change in how the goverment handles these things or any change in the behaviour of the gardai from the top down.

All FG had to do was tackle this head on but no they had to try bury it even if it meant destroying and good man and his family. McCabe and his family are the only victims in this sorry mess and it sickened me to hear the Taoiseach go on tv and paint fitzgerald as soon sort of victim after what that man has been through. Fitzgerald should have gone a long time ago, she has been out of her depth since she was appointed justice minister. Whats happening now is as a result of her poor performance as a minister and FG's unwillingness to recognise their own incompetence at handling this whole saga. You can bet your house that if roles were reversed and FG in oppsition they would be doing the exact same as FF and SF are doing now.

Its time for this country to get politicians who are not afraid to be tough and honest and meet situations and issues head on instead of this sleazy, slimey, cowardly way of doing things at the moment.

Agree with you 100% there needs to be an election and it needs to happen before xmas.
Dissappointed with how LEO the lion has handled this really.

Floppybits · 26-11-2017 8:54am

Soulsun wrote: »

Agree with you 100% there needs to be an election and it needs to happen before xmas.
Dissappointed with how LEO the lion has handled this really.

I have been very disappointed with FG since they got into government back in 2011. Foolish of me to think that we might have got a more responsible, honest transparent goverment after that election but all we got was a FG party that were as bad at stroke pulling as FF with an honest bone in the party. Its been one fiasco after another.

I know Leo is only in the job and to be fair what he is dealing with now is just a legacy of the weak leadership of kenny. By right for me the government should have fallen when kenny had his "mea culpa" moment.

Edward M · 26-11-2017 9:50am

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Wouldn't have believed it of FG either until now.

Law and order party tag can be ripped up and thrown over the hedge by the looks of things.

Lol, don't try to convince me that you thought of FG in any other light than you now do, or at least that you weren't posting the total opposite of it.

Edward M · 26-11-2017 9:55am

Floppybits wrote: »

I have been very disappointed with FG since they got into government back in 2011. Foolish of me to think that we might have got a more responsible, honest transparent goverment after that election but all we got was a FG party that were as bad at stroke pulling as FF with an honest bone in the party. Its been one fiasco after another.

I know Leo is only in the job and to be fair what he is dealing with now is just a legacy of the weak leadership of kenny. By right for me the government should have fallen when kenny had his "mea culpa" moment.

They were what the country needed probably in 2011, but starting with their abject failure on the whole water charges issue they have become a pushover party.
Populism isn't always the best policy.

McMurphy · 26-11-2017 10:16am

Edward M wrote: »

Lol, don't try to convince me that you thought of FG in any other light than you now do, or at least that you weren't posting the total opposite of it.

I don't try and convince anyone of my political outlook, I stand on my own two feet with no political allegiance to any party.

However.

2 x justice ministers have brought shame and disgrace to the DOJ, (3 if you include Flannagan allowing Leo to mislead the dail) 2 x Garda commissioners have been sacrificed, 1 x Taoiseach has also had to blow town due to his hallucinogenic episodes surrounding the same controversy.

I'm pointing out that in this context - the law and order party is a tag that will most probably forever more be laughed and mocked at.

If the reports that Frances met with O'Sullivan the day after this now infamous (if innocuous ) email was sent, and she also forgot that, and still she's backed to the hilt by a Taoiseach (who was allowed to mislead the dail on it) who is burying his head in the sand, imo they'll lose further respect.

Its all gone very very very Pete Tong for Leo. If Frances stays or goes, FG in govt are finished regardless. (Imo)

You'd have to wonder how things would might have looked had Leo adopted the 'I take no shyt - new politics' attitude he portrayed he would, when assuming office, and Frances was now gone.

Believe me. I'm trying to convince no-one.

The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

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