The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

Nettle Soup

charlie14 wrote: »

Interesting to see from that link the ducking and diving, rather than answering question by using the excuse of a disclosure tribunal that this email wasn`t even disclosed too in the first place has started already.

You couldn`t make it up

I know, it's a complete farce.

On the other hand they are desperately trying to deflect to the Disclosures Tribunal to buy time and take the heat off.
The whole sorry saga certainly makes Fine Gael look very dodgy the longer it goes on.

Bottom line, Nobody in Fine Gael have never ever protected Maurice McCabe despite their public statements of support.

Only FF were better at talking out both sides of their mouths. It's sick.

Hitman3000

markodaly wrote:

Ironically it is FG who hold the moral high ground here.

Seriously? Did you type that with a straight face.

charlie14

markodaly wrote: »

What documentation, exactly?





Erm, the setting up of the Commission into the future of Policing. Multiple pieces of legalisation which she passed in relation to policing. What exactly did you want her to do, again specifically?

I see you totally ignored my previous post about reform of the Gardai and the DOJ must be a cross party initiate but I see you just want to bang the drum.

You forgot her promises on protecting whistleblowers from smear campaigns and the like.

Understandable enough really I supposed.
Especially seeing as she ignored it herself when alerted to the likelihood of further attempts aimed at McCabe at the O`Higgins inquiry by that email.

Edward M

markodaly wrote: »

But its not known, hence my question.





Really? Look at the people who are conducting it.



Some very qualified people there, including 2 Americans, a Canadian and a Brit, who are all experts in their field. The commission, if you bothered to look, will finish their work in September next year and will include a report, which will..



This is quite frankly the biggest look into the Irish police since the foundation of the state, with an issuance of a guide in how to execute its recommendations in order to achieve the goals of a better overall Gardai.

Once the report is done there will be huge public pressure to carry out the recommendations. This will require cross party support.

The terms of reference look very similar to that of the Patton report. Did you also say that it was just window dressing? They took almost two years to do their job. You can't just build a new police force overnight. Its not Sim City.




That may well come in due course, the outcome of the disclosures tribunal may well lead that way.





Well at least you all but admit that FF and Sinn Fein and others have zero interest in actual reform, just want to play politics. Ironically it is FG who hold the moral high ground here.

The high moral ground?
Aside from that, the ordinary voter seems to be of the opinion Fitzgerald should resign.
I know the argument will be that they aren't fully informed, but it looks like opinion is heavily against Fitzgerald.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/poll-should-frances-fitzgerald-resign-11590342

BENDYBINN

Why is Fitzgerald gone into hiding?
Surely the public have a right to hear her side.
This must be the biggest farce in the history of the state

Nettle Soup

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Why is Fitzgerald gone into hiding?
Surely the public have a right to hear her side.
This must be the biggest farce in the history of the state

Because she couldn't get her story straight all week.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

This is quite frankly the biggest look into the Irish police since the foundation of the state, with an issuance of a guide in how to execute its recommendations in order to achieve the goals of a better overall Gardai.
.

I'm sure it is. Meantime however, business continues as usual.

markodaly wrote: »

Well at least you all but admit that FF and Sinn Fein and others have zero interest in actual reform, just want to play politics. Ironically it is FG who hold the moral high ground here.

No I don't, and please don't use my posts to soapbox.

markodaly wrote:

I know I am repeating myself but what is your alternative plan? Stop the Tribunal mid stream and..... what?

...ensure that a proper audit of documentation has occurred, that its terms of reference as sufficiently broad.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

Ironically it is FG who hold the moral high ground here.

Dear god. Neither FF or FG can hold any sort of ground on the matter, as its been their parties governance that have led to the DOJ and police force we have.

Brussels Sprout

What are the chances that on Tuesday we end up with the farcical scenario where neither FF or SF are willing to support each other's votes of confidence in Fitzgerald and the government holds up by default?

constance tench

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Why is Fitzgerald gone into hiding?
Surely the public have a right to hear her side.
This must be the biggest farce in the history of the state

Apparently, there's something explosive about to break...

...And Justice

I don't buy any of this bullshìt, Leo would sack her arśe in a flash to save his own skin. Who's pulling the strings here? Has the chosen few decided to get rid of FG?

charlie14

markodaly wrote: »

Erm, the setting up of the Commission into the future of Policing. Multiple pieces of legalisation which she passed in relation to policing. What exactly did you want her to do, again specifically?

I see you totally ignored my previous post about reform of the Gardai and the DOJ must be a cross party initiate but I see you just want to bang the drum.

For me personally I want her sacked for at the very least incompetence and sitting on her hands.
Not just in regards to the email, but for also sitting and allowing Varadkar to mislead the Dail.

Seriously, do you not see how ridiculous your whole cross party initiative proposal is, when we see one party digging in to protect, (and being kind to her here) at the very least, a minister who has shown such incompetence.

I mean seriously now!

charlie14

Edward M wrote: »

The high moral ground?
Aside from that, the ordinary voter seems to be of the opinion Fitzgerald should resign.
I know the argument will be that they aren't fully informed, but it looks like opinion is heavily against Fitzgerald.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/poll-should-frances-fitzgerald-resign-11590342

I wouldn`t put too much store in phone or internet polls carried out by newspapers, but the 3% undecided does appears to show people have made up their minds on this with very few left to sway if we end up with a general election.

Nettle Soup

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1126/922943-email-tanaiste/

When the details of the Garda Commissioner’s legal strategy were leaked 12 months later, the Tánaiste gave no indication that she had been in any way aware of the Garda Commissioner’s approach.

If she had by then simply forgotten, there were seven senior officials in her Department who could have reminded her.

At the time the Minister expressed concern that the transcripts had been leaked and refused to be drawn on the appalling vista they revealed.

While others demanded to know the full story, the Minister with whom the Garda Commissioner is accountable strongly defended her right to claim privilege over the instructions she had given to her legal team.

She continued to express full confidence in the Commissioner.

The failure to include this key email in the documents sent to the Disclosures Tribunal is a serious matter.

The shifting sands under the reported time line for the discovery of this email raises yet more questions.

It is now beyond doubt that at least nine people should have known the information the Taoiseach put on the record of the Dáil for two days running was not correct.

We are told that a tenth person, the current Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan, didn’t bother to ask about the contents of the email when its existence was reported to him by a Secretary General who was simultaneously announcing his departure from his post.

There is no doubt that this was a cock-up of catastrophic proportions.
The Disclosures Tribunal will now have to consider whether there was also a conspiracy, and if so, who was part of it.

Good article.

markodaly

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Why is Fitzgerald gone into hiding?
Surely the public have a right to hear her side.
This must be the biggest farce in the history of the state

In the history of the State? Christ some people are reaching!

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

I'm sure it is. Meantime however, business continues as usual.

So you want to start the reform process now, tomorrow, without a proper plan or strategy to execute it. Yes, great idea there. Is this how they did the Patton report? Amateur hour here.

No I don't, and please don't use my posts to soapbox.

You just admitted it, other parties want to score political points for votes, meanwhile getting things done is a secondary concern. FF are not great but the Shinners are the masters of talking ****e.

BENDYBINN

markodaly wrote: »

In the history of the State? Christ some people are reaching!

Can you tell us why Fitzgerald has gone into hiding please?

Water John

There are plenty of examples of police forces reform. We're not reinventing the wheel.

The faster you roll this stone, the less resistance to change will get built up, in front of it, by the vested interests. This is always critical with a big change. Set a short time frame. Outline the strategy at the time of announcement, no big long consultation process.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

So you want to start the reform process now, tomorrow, without a proper plan or strategy to execute it. Yes, great idea there. Is this how they did the Patton report? Amateur hour here.

Did I say that?

Where in the behaviour of the current government is any evidence of committment to reform?

markodaly wrote: »

You just admitted it, other parties want to score political points for votes, meanwhile getting things done is a secondary concern. FF are not great but the Shinners are the masters of talking ****e.

Presumably if it was announced the earth was about to be hit by a comet you'd figure in a go at the shinners too.

markodaly

The Disclosures Tribunal will now have to consider whether there was also a conspiracy, and if so, who was part of it.

From the rte.ie article which shows why the Tribunal needs to continue.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

Did I say that?

Effectively, yes. You want reform to start now, before the commission finishes their job. If I am wrong please state what kind of reform we should carry out and how soon it should start.

Where in the behaviour of the current government is any evidence of committment to reform?

I am repeating myself again but again, the creation of the Commission into the future of policing and numerous pieces of legislation that have been made law.

Presumably if it was announced the earth was about to be hit by a comet you'd figure in a go at the shinners too.

No, I am not paranoid. However, I am sure you would have Shinnerbots on here blaming FG for this comet.

markodaly

Water John wrote: »

There are plenty of examples of police forces reform. We're not reinventing the wheel.

The faster you roll this stone, the less resistance to change will get built up, in front of it, by the vested interests. This is always critical with a big change. Set a short time frame. Outline the strategy at the time of announcement, no big long consultation process.

You are free to make a submission here.

http://www.policereform.ie/

Hitman3000

The fact that information has been withheld from the Disclosures Tribunal, it's laughable that people are expected to place trust in said commission and allow it report. FG are really unbelievably arrogant or stupid, I'm not sure which it is.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

Effectively, yes. You want reform to start now, before the commission finishes their job. If I am wrong please state what kind of reform we should carry out and how soon it should start..

O I'm sorry, I'd no idea that it was impossible to run a department properly while a master plan was being formulated. Well let the coverups, smearing and attempts to ruin lives continue apace then. And "shinners".

charlie14

markodaly wrote: »

From the rte.ie article which shows why the Tribunal needs to continue.

On the positive side, at least you are not destroying acres of the rain forest by being on here attempting to sell a disclosure tribunal that has shown itself to be a waste of time by not having a clue about this email until now.

Water John

If I was a senior civil servant and had a conversation with the Garda Commisssioner, I would note its time and contents. Contemptaneous record.
This would be the case in any Co.

Nettle Soup

The Disclosures Tribunal is not being disclosed. The DOJ have compromised it. They must be livid.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

O I'm sorry, I'd no idea that it was impossible to run a department properly while a master plan was being formulated. Well let the coverups, smearing and attempts to ruin lives continue apace then. And "shinners".

So basically you have nothing to offer but just a general "Do something NOW!". OK.

Again, I repeat, this is how the Patton report was done, something the Shinners backed, but now its not good enough. Funny that.

Water John

Most of us are livid at it. a few don't seem to see the problem.
More important is the witholding of information from the Dail, the keystone of accountability.

Hitman3000

Water John wrote:

Most of us are livid at it. a few don't seem to see the problem. More important is the witholding of information from the Dail, the keystone of accountability.

Party allegiance is blinding.

brendanwalsh

Leo is done. Election on the cards early January. Fitzgerald is a traitor and a rat. James connelly must be rolling in his grave.

Nettle Soup

Water John wrote: »

Most of us are livid at it. a few don't seem to see the problem.
More important is the witholding of information from the Dail, the keystone of accountability.

Yeah you would need very heavy blinkers not to see the wrongs here. It's indefensible.

jimmycrackcorm

charlie14 wrote:

For me personally I want her sacked for at the very least incompetence and sitting on her hands. Not just in regards to the email, but for also sitting and allowing Varadkar to mislead the Dail.

The problem I have with that is that it's only scapegoating on the basis of partial information and a whiff of political smell of blood.

I've no problem with her being sacked once the full facts are established in the tribunal. But ultimately the blame for this less in the DOJ and the Gardai who will get away with it if her head rolls.

Nettle Soup

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The problem I have with that is that it's only scapegoating on the basis of partial information and a whiff of political smell of blood.

I've no problem with her being sacked once the full facts are established in the tribunal. But ultimately the blame for this less in the DOJ and the Gardai who will get away with it if her head rolls.

Do you think O'Sullivan will ever be prosecuted for her actions?

charlie14

Water John wrote: »

If I was a senior civil servant and had a conversation with the Garda Commisssioner, I would note its time and contents. Contemptaneous record.
This would be the case in any Co.

So in light of this retrospective Attorney General advice who will face prosecution.

The DOJ senior official, O`Sullivan or both do you reckon ?
Seeing as we have been told here that Fitzgerald would have been legally burned at the stake had she phoned O`Sullivan after reading that email.

tomwaterford

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The problem I have with that is that it's only scapegoating on the basis of partial information and a whiff of political smell of blood.

I've no problem with her being sacked once the full facts are established in the tribunal. But ultimately the blame for this less in the DOJ and the Gardai who will get away with it if her head rolls.

Who's was responsible for running the dept of justice at the time of these issues??


Unless the government are going to begin sacking civil servents commonsense suggests those at head of the dept take the fall?



It's baffling it's comes to this and every revelation seems to sink Fitzgerald further and further....with varadkar refusing to back down, and both ff/fg ruling out coalition with sf....all an election will do is return a deadlocked dail or the same situation again

tayto lover

tomwaterford wrote: »

Who's was responsible for running the dept of justice at the time of these issues??


Unless the government are going to begin sacking civil servents commonsense suggests those at head of the dept take the fall?



It's baffling it's comes to this and every revelation seems to sink Fitzgerald further and further....with varadkar refusing to back down, and both ff/fg ruling out coalition with sf....all an election will do is return a deadlocked dail or the same situation again

Totally agree. Another election will just be a waste of time and money.
The parties who bring it about might suffer more than FG if the people take umbrage.

McMurphy

I'm reading that despite the latest developments (Noirin O'Sullivan and DOJ phone calls, and meeting the day after the email was sent) that the Tainaste is holding her position, that of refusing to resign, and is actively preparing for an election.

The balls on her.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

[/B]
Totally agree. Another election will just be a waste of time and money.
The parties who bring it about might suffer more than FG if the people take umbrage.

The only party who can avoid bringing it on is the FG party by sacking Fitzgerald or by her walking away "for the good of the nation" or some other spiel.

As has been said already , the more this story is rumbling on, the more of her bumbling/conniving is being exposed, and the deepening of the hole she has dug herself becomes.

How could FF or SF seriously withdraw a no confidence motion on someone who is undoubtedly incompetent, and or corrupt?

Too many failures in her duties to go back on it now Tayto.

tayto lover

Rick Shaw wrote: »

The only party who can avoid bringing it on is the FG party by sacking Fitzgerald or by her walking away "for the good of the nation" or some other spiel.

As has been said already , the more this story is rumbling on, the more of her bumbling/conniving is being exposed, and the deepening of the hole she has dug herself becomes.

How could FF or SF seriously withdraw a no confidence motion on someone who is undoubtedly incompetent, and or corrupt?

Too many failures in her duties to go back on it now Tayto.

I thought she might decide top go but Leo is standing by her so far anyway and she still insists that she is innocent. Wouldn't look good for either of them to change their stance now either.

...And Justice

Senior civil servants are crashing the government. Leo has been told to toe the line, the adults are speaking. Nobody gets this at all? There's a shift and SF and FF are going to take over. It's been ordered.

On another note I was at a sex party for the wealthy in society last week with corporate gurus and the "Who's who" of the corporate elite. I'll never look at dame street the same way ever again. That's not a bank anymore it's a den.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

So basically you have nothing to offer but just a general "Do something NOW!". OK.

.

It's a sad day when "act appropriately now" is put down as "nothing to offer". It's like suggesting the gardai need ethics training so as not to falsify checkpoints and breath testing.

charlie14

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The problem I have with that is that it's only scapegoating on the basis of partial information and a whiff of political smell of blood.

I've no problem with her being sacked once the full facts are established in the tribunal. But ultimately the blame for this less in the DOJ and the Gardai who will get away with it if her head rolls.

For the love of God man you are twittering on here about disclosure tribunals and full facts that didn`t even know know this email even existed before continuous Dail questions resulted in it being produced. when there is a tribunal report findings lying around buried in dust for years.
Something we were promised would definitely not happen by no less than a Taoiseach

This disclosure tribunal attempt by FG is basically no different.
An attempt to shut down questions being answered by using this tribunal as an excuse but in this case it is a politician rather than a business man that will walk laughing up their sleeve at how gullible we are while the can rattles down the road.
The link from the Daily Mirror provided here earlier shows just how this con of a tribunal is even now being used to avoid answering questions.

Water John

and Justice, stop trolling please, not interested in your personal peccadiloes.
Deep Sate Conspiracies belong in the USA. But no doubt elements of , The State, sought to damage McCabe and any of those defending him, by any means possible.

charlie14

Water John wrote: »

Most of us are livid at it. a few don't seem to see the problem.
More important is the witholding of information from the Dail, the keystone of accountability.

I would imagine the withholding of information from your party leader and Taoiseach resulting in him making a fool of himself in the Dail is a fairly large stone in the accountability stages that should have been acted upon by him rather than just ignored.

Fitzgerald should have been told to resign or be sacked for that alone.

Water John

In that case, there goes Flanagan, as well.

Loafing Oaf

tayto lover wrote: »

she still insists that she is innocent. Wouldn't look good for either of them to change their stance now either.

Presumably if she were to resign it would be "for the good of the country" and she would maintain her position of doing nothing wrong.

Don't think she will at this stage though, why take things to the brink if you were planning on stepping down anyway?

tayto lover

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Presumably if she were to resign it would be "for the good of the country" and she would maintain her position of doing nothing wrong...

The trouble with that is that every Minister would be expected to do likewise for the slightest mistake or omission.

charlie14

tayto lover wrote: »

I thought she might decide top go but Leo is standing by her so far anyway and she still insists that she is innocent. Wouldn't look good for either of them to change their stance now either.

It could end up a lot worse for Varadkar if she ends up taking him with her due to a bad GE election result that costs FG a place in government

FrancieBrady

charlie14 wrote: »

It could end up a lot worse for Varadkar if she ends up taking him with her due to a bad GE election result that costs FG a place in government

The numbers could very easily see FG edged out of government.