The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

nuac

tayto lover wrote: »

The trouble with that is that every Minister would be expected to do likewise for the slightest mistake or omission.

imho ignoring that email is more than a "slight mistake"

jimmycrackcorm

FrancieBrady wrote:

It makes it look like it is Leo who is desperate to not have an election.

Leo will stick to his guns. FG won't be the ones fighting with SF over seats.

FrancieBrady wrote:

Clare Daly, before this offer, made a good point on the week in politics, that we are where we are precisely because any reform is in response to crisis.

Claire Daly doesn't understand where the word reform comes from.:

"Meaning "to bring (a person) away from an evil course of life" is recorded from early 15th century.; of governments, institutions, etc."

jimmycrackcorm

Edward M wrote:

The crux of the issue for me personally is, if Fitzgerald, minister for justice at the time, is guilty of incompetence, that is really what the vote is about on Tuesday. Did she do her job to the best of her ability, if she did and couldn't remember that email and allowed her party leader to go on record without checking the facts, then she was certainly incompetent imv. If she was incompetent, then how can there be confidence in her?

She has a whole department to provide the facts, which apparently have been acting as if they were recording an episode of yes minister.

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

She has a whole department to provide the facts, which apparently have been acting as if they were recording an episode of yes minister.

'It's somebody else's fault' is not really washing on this one though.

FrancieBrady

Just listening to the radio there, maybe one of the solutions here is to actually fine one or more of these people the 300,000 they said they would, if person or persons is found to be withholding information pertinent to a tribunal.
How many 300,000's could be collected here?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is not my job, nor what the thread is about.

Spoken like a true populist. Just want to give out, but actual solutions? Pffft

markodaly

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is already in the works. The Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland has already been established and will issue its recommendations by September 2018. The whole whistleblower controversy led to its establishment. Huge changes are coming, senior Gardaí themselves acknowledge that it'll result in the biggest overhaul of the force since it's establishment. A key component of this will probably involve a clear out of management with retirement incentives - similar to what occurred with the disbanding of the RUC in the north.

We shouldn't confuse this current political crisis with the issues in An Garda Síochána. Yes, obviously they are linked. However what's at play here is the dysfunction within the Department of Justice. That is what is being exposed, and the issue is that no mechanism has been put in place to overhaul the Department to go hand in hand with the redesign of An Garda Síochána.

Make no mistake about it - the overhaul of An Garda Síochána will ultimately fail unless the dysfunction in Department of Justice is sorted out.

Splitting the Department of Justice into two and creating a specific Department of Home Affairs is actually a massive change. It would be the greatest redesign of how the administration of justice works since the foundation of the State.

A good summary here. If the reports are true MM would be mad not to take up the offer.

It is clear that many people here don't have a bulls notion on what is actually going on behind the scene and what efforts to reform is going on. They think sacking a minster would actually change anything, while what is proposed will change something. Most sensible people will see that.

givyjoe

markodaly wrote: »

A good summary here. If the reports are true MM would be mad not to take up the offer.

It is clear that many people here don't have a bulls notion on what is actually going on behind the scene and what efforts to reform is going on. They think sacking a minster would actually change anything, while what is proposed will change something. Most sensible people will see that.

No reason both can't happen, i.e. reform and sack the minister.

McMurphy

According to newstalk FF seem to have the view that Fitzgerald going is inevitable, and that's what they want to see happening.

Not sure if that's the party official stance or the view of the news reader.

Nettle Soup

For anyone that hasn't read it, Katie Hannon's piece on RTE sums this debacle up very well.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1126/922943-email-tanaiste/

A must read if you want the truth (and lies).

Nettle Soup

blanch152 wrote: »

I have been saying for a couple of days now that Martin will back down and there will be a deal. I was dismissed as a fantasist at first but glad to see at least one coming round to my point of view.

I believe you were dismissed for making up facts...you said Alan Kelly got the email from the Disclosures Tribunal

blanch152

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I believe you were dismissed for making up facts...you said Alan Kelly got the email from the Disclosures Tribunal

You should read my post again, I gave a number of possibilities, including that one. Fact is, Alan Kelly hasn't said where he got the email from, so all we have is newspaper speculation.

johnnyskeleton

markodaly wrote: »

Spoken like a true populist. Just want to give out, but actual solutions? Pffft

Mod note:

Play the ball not the man please.

FrancieBrady

Coveney getting it straight from SOR this morning. Keeps falling back on the victimisation slant.

jimmycrackcorm

FrancieBrady wrote:

'It's somebody else's fault' is not really washing on this one though.

Perhaps the facts need to be uncovered then instead of simply scapegoating.

Nettle Soup wrote:

For anyone that hasn't read it, Katie Hannon's piece on RTE sums this debacle up very well.

Indeed that makes it clear this affair is a yes minister job.

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Perhaps the facts need to be uncovered then instead of simply scapegoating.

A refresher course on what facts we know.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1126/922943-email-tanaiste/

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A refresher course on what facts we know.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1126/922943-email-tanaiste/

That's disappointing. Katie has actually erred quite badly in her analysis:

The minister was being told that the garda commissioner was taking issue with the garda whistleblower’s motives.

That's not correct.

The Garda Commissioner was taking issue with the whistleblower's credibility, by trying to paint him as a hypocrite - claiming that McCabe himself had interfered with an investigation against him, or otherwise been the beneficiary of quashed charges.

Unfortunately a lot of Hannon's extrapolated importance and implications are based on this incorrect reading of the email. That McCabe had been the subject of a criminal complaint for sexual assault, wasn't "explosive" news at this time, it was already well known by the relevant players.

seamus

https://www.rte.ie/news/post/102667629/

Sinn Féin's Deputy Leader Mary Lou McDonald has said the party's motion of no confidence in Frances Fitzgerald is not a call for election, but for political accountability.

...

She said that she had not planned on an election before Christmas and admitted the "timing wasn't good".

:pac:

So, as we suspected, this was a little political game by Sinn Féin that's gone awry. In an attempt to score points, they inadvertently brought us to the brink of an election and now they're desperately trying to talk it back down.

Water John

Read it, as SF leaving room for a solution that does not involve the sacking of Frances Fitzgerald. This is a political strategy. Don't know why. But she must be reading signs that FF will reach agreement with FG.

BTW, Tom Cloonan has an excellent piece here. He suffered similarily in the Defence Forces. Worth a read. When the State and its apparatus define you, as an enemy. Things really go south.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/tom-clonan-on-maurice-mccabe-i-suffered-a-similar-campaign-of-character-assassination-and-false-rumours-3718757-Nov2017/

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/post/102667629/

:pac:

So, as we suspected, this was a little political game by Sinn Féin that's gone awry. In an attempt to score points, they inadvertently brought us to the brink of an election and now they're desperately trying to talk it back down.

Not sure what your point is here?

You shouldn't look for accountability because it might result in an election?

Ordinarily would calling a minister to account when you are simply in opposition and not in a C&S agreement, precipitate an election?

jimmycrackcorm

FrancieBrady wrote:

A refresher course on what facts we know.

Have you actual read it?

E.g.
" Finally he said he and Mr Barrett had agreed that neither of their bosses, the attorney nor the minister, "had a function" in relation to the evidence that a party to a Commission of Investigation may adduce."

Was this a deliberate attempt to hide the details from a minister who had publicly backed McCabe?

"While the email correctly revealed that there had been a row at the commission, the account of what the row was about is a garbled version of what had actually taken place."

I think that gives a clear indicator.

"There were now seven people in the Department of Justice besides the minister who should have had serious concerns about what was transpiring at the O’Higgins Commission, seven very senior people who now understood that a serious criminal complaint was being introduced in a private inquiry to challenge Sgt McCabe’s motives for making allegations."

That's a lot of people who didn't pipe up when they should have...

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

You should read my post again, I gave a number of possibilities, including that one. Fact is, Alan Kelly hasn't said where he got the email from, so all we have is newspaper speculation.

I just did, and your only "logical" explanations on Kelly getting his email information were either from this disclosures tribunal, or from An Garda Siochana.

Those were your only two "logical" possibilities.

McMurphy

seamus wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/post/102667629/

:pac:

So, as we suspected, this was a little political game by Sinn F that's gone awry. In an attempt to score points, they inadvertently brought us to the brink of an election and now they're desperately trying to talk it back down.

This part being the most important part.

However, she added, if it was choice between an election or dodging responsibility by the political class, then an election was preferable.

If anyone thinks if the shoe was on the other foot, and a SF or FF TD were involved in such a controversy that the lads in FG wouldn't be calling for accountability, they're lying to themselves.

And being hypocritical.

Besides. What's wrong with accountability? Why don't we do accountability in Ireland?

If Frances was in any party across the Water, her feet wouldn't have touched the ground.

Hitman3000

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

That's a lot of people who didn't pipe up when they should have...

Who had ultimate responsibility? Is the Minister not responsible for their department?
The attempts to portray Fitzgerald as a victim is laughable.

FrancieBrady

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Who had ultimate responsibility? Is the Minister not responsible for their department?
The attempts to portray Fitzgerald as a victim is laughable.

Has been ongoing all weekend. It seems to be all they have.

flaneur

The question I have is do any of the political parties here have the ability to reform this ? They all seem to be intimidated by a major and likely to be controversial task like this.

FrancieBrady

flaneur wrote: »

The question I have is do any of the political parties here have the ability to reform this ? They all seem to be intimidated by a major and likely to be controversial task like this.

It's looking increasingly like a deal is being cobbled together.

No mention of a sacking or resignation, no mention even of anybody being charged with withholding information from a tribunal, even though we know that the 'trawl' and email is indication that somebody did.

So FG FF cozy up to one another again and we get zero accountability. Politics-Irish style.

Fann Linn

MM and FF have bottled it according to latest soundbites.
So much for all the yahoos from the yahoos the other evening.

Nettle Soup

Fann Linn wrote: »

MM and FF have bottled it according to latest soundbites.
So much for all the yahoos from the yahoos the other evening.

M Martin has lost the chance of ever becoming Taoiseach if he bottles it.
No harm to be honest.

Garda Corruption wins again!!!

Now let them get back to fake breath tests...

Larbre34

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's looking increasingly like a deal is being cobbled together.

No mention of a sacking or resignation, no mention even of anybody being charged with withholding information from a tribunal, even though we know that the 'trawl' and email is indication that somebody did.

So FG FF cozy up to one another again and we get zero accountability. Politics-Irish style.

A Tribunal has already been established to deal with these matters, it hasnt even kicked off yet. An election would be bad for that, for the budget, for the 8th amendment Committee, not to mention the cost of it to the taxpayer as well as the gross inconvenience to the general public and the rush job the parties would have to do to prepare for it. Basically, its in nobody's interest

Sierra Oscar

Larbre34 wrote: »

A Tribunal has already been established to deal with these matters, it hasnt even kicked off yet. An election would be bad for that, for the budget, for the 8th amendment Committee, not to mention the cost of it to the taxpayer as well as the gross inconvenience to the general public and the rush job the parties would have to do to prepare for it. Basically, its in nobody's interest

The Disclosures Tribunal has started. It's been ongoing since February and public hearings began last July.

The new information which was forwarded by the Department of Justice last week (after its existence was revealed by journalists) was meant to have been forwarded to the Tribunal last February.

FrancieBrady

Larbre34 wrote: »

A Tribunal has already been established to deal with these matters, it hasnt even kicked off yet. An election would be bad for that, for the budget, for the 8th amendment Committee, not to mention the cost of it to the taxpayer as well as the gross inconvenience to the general public and the rush job the parties would have to do to prepare for it. Basically, its in nobody's interest

And an election could have been averted and accountability for the political failings here could have been addressed had Leo taken responsibility. The buck stops with him for this, that is the responsibility of his job.
It isn't FF's or SF's or Labour's responsibility, it is the Taoiseach's.

We, the people, have got nothing if a cozy little deal is done here. That is the point.

Sephiral

I think the splitting of the Justice department is a good idea just on the basis of institutional reform. MM could easily come out with that line and still insist on Fitzgerald's resignation. He'd be on the right side of both arguments then.

Chips Lovell

Martin seems to have spent much of the weekend trying to put the genie back in the bottle by finding a way of backing down without appearing to back down, i.e. not insisting the Tanaiste resign but looking for some reassurances from the Taoiseach that he can point to.

If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a heave against him in 2018. Can't imagine the lads cheering about an election in the Dail bar the other night will be too happy.

blanch152

Sephiral wrote: »

I think the splitting of the Justice department is a good idea just on the basis of institutional reform. MM could easily come out with that line and still insist on Fitzgerald's resignation. He'd be on the right side of both arguments then.

You are advocating that FF adopt a typical "cute hoor" approach.

How could any potential coalition partner trust them after that? How could FG rely on a future "confidence and supply" arrangement?

The current political situation sees both FF and FG advertising themselves and positioning themselves as future desirable coalition partners and that audience isn't just the public but other politicians.

If FF were to agree reforms but pull the plug anyway, that would be seen as untrustworthy with politicians even if it played well in the short-term with the public with no guarantee that the short-term welcome would last as long as the election date.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

I just did, and your only "logical" explanations on Kelly getting his email information were either from this disclosures tribunal, or from An Garda Siochana.

Those were your only two "logical" possibilities.

So it wasn't just one. Thank you for the correction.

P.S. and you forget the third, which I put as unlikely, but not impossible.

Nettle Soup

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/02/13/how-did-he-get-here/

Long but fascinating article.

McCabe is extraordinary to have survived all the attempts to shut him down.
It's mind blowing.

James Brown

Nettle Soup wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/02/13/how-did-he-get-here/

Long but fascinating article.

McCabe is extraordinary to have survived all the attempts to shut him down.
It's mind blowing.

Varadkar and Co. should apologise to him publicly for the way the system and Fitzgerald failed him. Although that would require integrity.

Martin is finished and FF on the back burner if he pulls back. A win either way for the state.

jimmycrackcorm

Hitman3000 wrote:

Who had ultimate responsibility? Is the Minister not responsible for their department? The attempts to portray Fitzgerald as a victim is laughable.

Of course the minister is responsible. But why ignore the actual cause just for political point scoring?

Even the RTE analysis is quite clear about the undermining. It's not about Fitzgerald being a victim. I don't think anyone ever thought Jim Hacker was a 'victim'.

We all know Fitzgerald want responsible for the smear campaign and we all know we are going through this right now because of a political game that has nothing to do with justice and truth for McCabe. Otherwise we'd be talking about the tribunal instead...

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Of course the minister is responsible. But why ignore the actual cause just for political point scoring?

Even the RTE analysis is quite clear about the undermining. It's not about Fitzgerald being a victim. I don't think anyone ever thought Jim Hacker was a 'victim'.

We all know Fitzgerald want responsible for the smear campaign and we all know we are going through this right now because of a political game that has nothing to do with justice and truth for McCabe. Otherwise we'd be talking about the tribunal instead...

The tribunal that is only getting full disclosure of the information the DOJ has precisely because of this political crisis?

Hitman3000

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

We all know Fitzgerald want responsible for the smear campaign and we all know we are going through this right now because of a political game that has nothing to do with justice and truth for McCabe. Otherwise we'd be talking about the tribunal instead...

Information has been shown to have been withheld from from the Tribunal. So to my mind the Tribunal is a waste of time. Great article on the Journal today by another whistle blower former Army officer. Puts Fitzgeralds behaviour or lack thereof into perspective.

Floppybits

There is a problem here even if there is no election, how can anyone have confidence in the Tribunal that there has been full disclosure? Just look at this latest fiasco, that email was suppose to have been sent to the Tribunal in February but it wasn't.

Should the AGS, DOJ and any other organisation involved in this Tribunal be trusted that they have submitted all the evidence to the Tribunal?  Maybe there is a need for a completely independent person to be one the trawl through whatever needs to be trawled through and they should be the ones to the send the information to the Tribunal and not the State departments which from what we have seen at every stage of this fiasco cannot be trusted. 

For me personally the Tribunal is a waste of time now because the State side of the Tribunal cannot be trusted.

Nettle Soup

Floppybits wrote: »

There is a problem here even if there is no election, how can anyone have confidence in the Tribunal that there has been full disclosure? Just look at this latest fiasco, that email was suppose to have been sent to the Tribunal in February but it wasn't.

Should the AGS, DOJ and any other organisation involved in this Tribunal be trusted that they have submitted all the evidence to the Tribunal? Maybe there is a need for a completely independent person to be one the trawl through whatever needs to be trawled through and they should be the ones to the send the information to the Tribunal and not the State departments which from what we have seen at every stage of this fiasco cannot be trusted.

For me personally the Tribunal is a waste of time now because the State side of the Tribunal cannot be trusted.

It is comprised for sure.

Personally I would have Callinan, O'Sullivan, Fitzgerald, Flanagan, Shatter and others in the dock a long time ago as part of a criminal investigation against, for starters, the 2 senior Gardai that lied during O'Higgins. They might answer questions under oath.

McMurphy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Varadkar and Co. should apologise to him publicly for the way the system and Fitzgerald failed him. Although that would require integrity.

Martin is finished and FF on the back burner if he pulls back. A win either way for the state.

Martin basically handing over main opposition party title to SF if he goes all grand old duke of York on this now.

FrancieBrady

Nettle Soup wrote: »

It is comprised for sure.

Personally I would have Callinan, O'Sullivan, Fitzgerald, Flanagan, Shatter and others in the dock a long time ago as part of a criminal investigation against, for starters, the 2 senior Gardai that lied during O'Higgins. They might answer questions under oath.

There is a fine of 300,000 for with holding information pertinent to a tribunal.
Will anyone in the DOJ get fined?

Nettle Soup

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a fine of 300,000 for with holding information pertinent to a tribunal.
Will anyone in the DOJ get fined?

Zero chance.

charlie14

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Disclosures Tribunal has started. It's been ongoing since February and public hearings began last July.

The new information which was forwarded by the Department of Justice last week (after its existence was revealed by journalists) was meant to have been forwarded to the Tribunal last February.

And this is the Tribunal we are all now supposed to put our blind faith in to get to the bottom of all this.

One that didn`t even know off the existence of this email, which should have been forwarded to it last February, only learning off it now after it`s existence was revealed by journalists.

To expect anyone to have faith in this tribunal is simply laughable imo.
Especially when we see how the findings of Moriarty are under a few feet of dust at this stage.

munsterlegend

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Martin seems to have spent much of the weekend trying to put the genie back in the bottle by finding a way of backing down without appearing to back down, i.e. not insisting the Tanaiste resign but looking for some reassurances from the Taoiseach that he can point to.

If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a heave against him in 2018. Can't imagine the lads cheering about an election in the Dail bar the other night will be too happy.

Have to say it will be some climb down from FF if there is no resignation from Fitzgerald. They have issued a motion against her and are now backtracking. Sinn Fein will be delighted and can point to FF weakness.

Before issuing a motion the talks between ff and fg should have taken place. Now ff look completely weak. A victory for fg as well.

Floppybits

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Floppybits wrote: »

There is a problem here even if there is no election, how can anyone have confidence in the Tribunal that there has been full disclosure? Just look at this latest fiasco, that email was suppose to have been sent to the Tribunal in February but it wasn't.

Should the AGS, DOJ and any other organisation involved in this Tribunal be trusted that they have submitted all the evidence to the Tribunal?  Maybe there is a need for a completely independent person to be one the trawl through whatever needs to be trawled through and they should be the ones to the send the information to the Tribunal and not the State departments which from what we have seen at every stage of this fiasco cannot be trusted.

For me personally the Tribunal is a waste of time now because the State side of the Tribunal cannot be trusted.

It is comprised for sure.

Personally I would have Callinan, O'Sullivan, Fitzgerald, Flanagan, Shatter and others in the dock a long time ago as part of a criminal investigation against, for starters, the 2 senior Gardai that lied during O'Higgins. They might answer questions under oath.

This is the problem in this country, it seems anyone in the public service is immune from any repercussions for their actions. Each one of those mentioned in your post should have been sacked and had charges made against them but not here.  This is what really gets me angry about this country, there is just no accountability at any level in the public sector from the top down.
I had hoped with FG coming in in 2011 that they would have changed things, would have learned from the mistakes and behaviors of FF,  but they are even worse than what has gone before. I suppose in that they have learned they can do what they like and not worry about any responsibility.  The hypocrisy dripping of FG is unreal, as if they wouldn't have behaved exactly the same way in opposition if the roles were reversed. Do they really think they are fooling people? 
This playing the victim card for Frances Fitzgerald, this woman is nowhere near a victim, she is responsible for her current predicament for being a incompetent minister.  She is not a victim, Maurice McCabe is a victim as is his family for what the organs of the state have tried to do to that man. 
Political parties disgust me.

Nettle Soup

munsterlegend wrote: »

Have to say it will be some climb down from FF if there is no resignation from Fitzgerald. They have issued a motion against her and are now backtracking. Sinn Fein will be delighted and can point to FF weakness.

Before issuing a motion the talks between ff and fg should have taken place. Now ff look completely weak. A victory for fg as well.

Sinn Fein also have a no confidence motion for Wednesday, right? FF will have to abstain from that....ouch.