The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

'Positively' would imply action. Intentionally do nothing. Either way you try fudge it, he called her out on her disgrace.
Regardless of Martin, it's there for all to see.
I want O'Sullivan held to account.

O'Sullivan or Fitzgerald?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

O'Sullivan or Fitzgerald?

Fitzgerald. It's in all the papers.

I would also hope to see O'Sullivan held to account but she might have dirt on FG. Any government worth its salt would have sacked her.

Varadkar made a better hurler from the ditch. Now he's got responsibilities.

McMurphy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Fitzgerald. It's in all the papers.

I would also hope to see O'Sullivan held to account but she might have dirt on FG. Any government worth its salt would have sacked her.

Varadkar made a better hurler from the ditch. Now he's got responsibilities.

Makes me all the more suspicious now on what (if any) involvement Enda had in any of this.

His lying about events surrounding the McCabe debacle, particularly on his imaginary conversations with people that never happened makes me suspect he was at least also aware of things long before it got into the public domain.

James Brown

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Makes me all the more suspicious now on what (if any) involvement Enda had in any of this.

His lying about events surrounding the McCabe debacle, particularly on his imaginary conversations with people that never happened makes me suspect he was at least also aware of things long before it got into the public domain.

Kenny is a comedic figure. Quite frankly Fine Gael have been shown to have little to no integrity. I can respect differing politics, but this is low character. Evade and deflect on everything. Shameful.

Water John

Certainly, as said on RTE News, if it transpires that Fitzgerald knew the attack strategy before it was employed, she will be in a very difficult position.
My take on that, is FF would want/need her gone and Leo would do it, before he is even asked.

FrancieBrady

Water John wrote: »

Certainly, as said on RTE News, if it transpires that Fitzgerald knew the attack strategy before it was employed, she will be in a very difficult position.
My take on that, is FF would want/need her gone and Leo would do it, before he is even asked.

What little credibility FF have rests on it IMO. They'll look for her head if SF put down a motion.
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/1122/922013-dail/

Water John

I'd be concentrating more on Sgt. McCabe's best interests, rather than SFs opportunity.

FrancieBrady

Water John wrote: »

I'd be concentrating more on Sgt. McCabe's best interests, rather than SFs opportunity.

Well McCabe doesn't seem too happy with Frances, so he'll be glad somebody is forcing the issue.

FrancieBrady

She could be gone before the Dail sits to discuss this today.

lawred2

Well she's neither credible not trustworthy.

She forgot about the email. Give me a break. Good riddance.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

She could be gone before the Dail sits to discuss this today.

Is that based on anything other than wild speculation?

Water John

Mick Clifford is worth a read, again. Going on what Mick Wallace put on the Dail record, we now have two strands of evidence, both targeting McCabe's annoyance with the Gardai and DPP. Problem is both are incorrect but aimed in the same direction, coincidence???
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tanaiste-under-fire-td-details-further-effort-to-attack-mccabes-character-463325.html

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Is that based on anything other than wild speculation?

Speculation yes. 'Wild' not in my opinion given the criticism she is shipping.

Care to speculate on how many times a Taoiseach is going to have to correct the Dail record over this issue?

McMurphy

According to Hugh O'Connell, SF look set to table no confidence motion.

Says theirs little support from fellow TDs and Ministers from FG - no wagon circling and a reluctance to give media interviews.

Definitely squeaky bottom time for Frances and Leo.

McMurphy

This is interesting.

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/933670522847727616

McMurphy

Confirmed. SF table no confidence motion.

Floppybits

Rick Shaw wrote: »

According to Hugh O'Connell, SF look set to table no confidence motion.

Says theirs little support from fellow TDs and Ministers from FG - no wagon circling and a reluctance to give media interviews.

Definitely squeaky bottom time for Frances and Leo.

Squeaky bum time for michael martin. This could bring him down. Im sure members of FF are only itching to take her down. Thid puts Martin in a awkward position of he supports her he will lose the support of the party and if he doesnt support her he brings down the government.

McMurphy

Floppybits wrote: »

Squeaky bum time for michael martin. This could bring him down. Im sure members of FF are only itching to take her down. Thid puts Martin in a awkward position of he supports her he will lose the support of the party and if he doesnt support her he brings down the government.

Be will most probably have a quiet word with Leo, and try and force her resignation before it comes to that. Charlie Flanagan should be toast too.

Alternative is a possible Christmas election.

jobbridge4life

If Leo has any sense he will push Franny out the window, give her the chance to say 'I did no wrong, I followed legal advice bla bla but I don't want to be a distraction to the valubale work of Government'.

Odhinn

Rick Shaw wrote: »

This is interesting.

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/933670522847727616

Indeedy it is.

"It comes as the Department of Justice has confirmed that current Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan was made aware of the email at the centre of the controversy on 13 November.

Mr Flanagan said it came during a phone call from the department’s secretary general where the primary purpose was to inform the minister of his decision to retire."
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/1123/922187-fitzgerald-politics/

Previously

"The department adds that he will have shortly served for 40 years, and that "this was noted as a matter of routine at today's Government meeting".

Mr Waters has been a public servant all his career, and served as director-general of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service from 2010 to 2014."

However -

"Labour TD Alan Kelly has criticised the latest developments.
Speaking on The Hard Shoulder here on Newstalk, Mr Kelly said the Government should have been more transparent over the events.

One of the questions which I've down for answer this week is 'Does Charlie Flanagan actually have confidence in him (Noel Waters)?

"So now he won't have to answer that, probably."

"The fact is I don't believe that he had any intention of retiring up until recently.

"It's quite ironic that the Taoiseach of this country went in and prevaricated in relation to many of his answers today and didn't tell us that the Government had been informed today that the secretary-general was to retire".

Also referring to the O'Higgins Commission, which was set up following allegations made by Sergeant Maurice McCabe, Mr Kelly said: "Bottom line here: I do not have confidence in the Department of Justice.

"I've had enough experience now of the Department of Justice save quite frankly, as a former government minister who served not so long ago, I have no faith in the Department of Justice".
http://www.newstalk.com/SecretaryGeneral-of-Department-of-Justice-to-step-down

Fair play to Alan Kelly there.

Water John

The DOJ, has long been, a murky world. RTE political corr was maintaining that FFs body language today, did not bode well for Frances. She didn't even have an inhouse (DOJ) discussion on the strategy, that we are aware of, even if it was the case, that she could not actively intervene.

The Motion will give a number of TDs to put further material on the record. Watch out for Howlin, Kelly, Claire Daly, Mick Wallace.
The point, raised by Wallace, of a second strand to blackening McCabe's name, by a Garda, throws up the famous, appalling vista of, a calculated approach.
McCabe only saved by having the recording.

Not a chance of Leo, going to the country, on this one. Probably fairly pissed off, at being, kept in the dark, by both Fitzgerald and now Flanagan.

Odhinn

Water John wrote: »

The DOJ, has long been, a murky world. RTE political corr was maintaining that FFs body language today, did not bode well for Frances. She didn't even have an inhouse (DOJ) discussion on the strategy, that we are aware of, even if it was the case, that she could not actively intervene.

The Motion will give a number of TDs to put further material on the record. Watch out for Howlin, Kelly, Claire Daly, Mick Wallace.
The point, raised by Wallace, of a second strand to blackening McCabe's name, by a Garda, throws up the famous, appalling vista of, a calculated approach.
McCabe only saved by having the recording.

Not a chance of Leo, going to the country, on this one. Probably fairly pissed off, at being, kept in the dark, by both Fitzgerald and now Flanagan.

Whether they could intervene or not, they seem to have been utterly incurious about the whole affair. 'Yes Garda, Whatever you say'. Surely at the end of the investigation it would have been perfectly legitimate to ask what happened to strategy (a) strategy (b) and so on? Football managers wouldn't get away with it.

James Brown

Let's hope Martin has more integrity than Labour did under Kenny. Sad age for Labour when Fianna Fail might show you up in that regard.

recedite

Copy of the recently resurfaced email shown in a scan here
We now know that the proposed "strategy" was to frame Garda McCabe with false innuendo and allegations that he was a paedophile. The allegations had been circulating in AGS but they were not investigated because that would have proven them to be untrue.

Whether Fitgerald knew that it was all makey uppy is another matter. Don't forget there was also falsified documentation provided by Tusla on the matter.
But the e-mail in itself does not prove that Fitzgerald knew what was going on.
However, if she had any inkling that it was all a stitch-up, I don't see why she couldn't have directed AGS to drop it. After all, why else would we have a politician in charge of AGS, if the Minister could not rein in a rogue commissioner? Fitzgerald's lack of curiosity about the whole affair is very suspicious, but maybe she is just an idiot. Incompetent or corrupt; its one or the other.

Mc Cabe himself is increasingly looking like one of the few good people in a whole nest of vipers.

Hitman3000

I actually find Kelly's role in seeking answers to questions about this whole affair as f**king hilarious. It's almost like he wasn't part of government when as our American friends say this 'clusterf**k' started to become public.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Speculation yes. 'Wild' not in my opinion given the criticism she is shipping.

Care to speculate on how many times a Taoiseach is going to have to correct the Dail record over this issue?

Well let's look at your hysterical contribution again:

FrancieBrady wrote: »

She could be gone before the Dail sits to discuss this today.

There was absolutely no suggestion from any media outlet or anywhere else that she would be gone this morning, yet you chose to put that out there.

Wild speculation is probably an understatement in that context.

McMurphy

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I actually find Kelly's role in seeking answers to questions about this whole affair as f**king hilarious. It's almost like he wasn't part of government when as our American friends say this 'clusterf**k' started to become public.

Kelly was handed the poisoned chalice of water charges and was left to his own device's with it.

I see this as his chance to give a big fcuk you to those that hung him out to dry.

Odhinn

recedite wrote: »

Whether Fitgerald knew that it was all makey uppy is another matter. Don't forget there was also falsified documentation provided by Tusla on the matter.
But the e-mail in itself does not prove that Fitzgerald knew what was going on.
However, if she had any inkling that it was all a stitch-up, I don't see why she couldn't have directed AGS to drop it. After all, why else would we have a politician in charge of AGS, if the Minister could not rein in a rogue commissioner? Fitzgerald's lack of curiosity about the whole affair is very suspicious, but maybe she is just an idiot. Incompetent or corrupt; its one or the other.

Mc Cabe himself is increasingly looking like one of the few good people in a whole nest of vipers.

But if came out in the end that they dropped the evidence (of the two gardai), surely the question that begs to be asked by the most casual observers is "why" and if the answer is that, as we know, its because those gardai lied and mccabe had a recording, why wasn't an investigation asked for? The word of a chief superintendent of the gardai is something used to back a number of things in irish law - its a far more serious matter than a civilian being found to be unreliable.

James Brown

Kelly was asked on the Tonight show, if he or Labour had heard about or discussed plans to blacken McCabe when they were in government, his response was, "I don't remember".

The Minister for Health has described a Sinn Féin motion of no confidence in the Tánaiste as a political stunt and an attempt to usurp the Charleton Tribunal.

Speaking outside Leinster House, Simon Harris said the Government retains full confidence in Frances Fitzgerald.
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/1123/922187-fitzgerald-politics/

'Confidence' is a stretch. He means 'support regardless' surely?

gizmo555

Odhinn wrote: »

Whether they could intervene or not, they seem to have been utterly incurious about the whole affair. 'Yes Garda, Whatever you say'. Surely at the end of the investigation it would have been perfectly legitimate to ask what happened to strategy (a) strategy (b) and so on? Football managers wouldn't get away with it.

Fitzgerald has claimed several times, including in the Dáil today, that for her to have voiced an opinion to the Garda Commissioner on the Commissioner's plans to stitch up McCabe would have been "illegal" and a "crime". What law would have been broken and what crime committed? Unsurprisingly, Fitzgerald didn't clarify those points.

James Brown

gizmo555 wrote: »

Fitzgerald has claimed several times, including in the Dáil today, that for her to have voiced an opinion to the Garda Commissioner on the Commissioner's plans to stitch up McCabe would have been "illegal" and a "crime". What law would have been broken and what crime committed? Unsurprisingly, Fitzgerald didn't clarify those points.

Also, strong stand regarding the contents of an email she 'forgot' about.

The idea it came up casually in conversation with Flanagan last week isn't believable either.

Hitman3000

According to the political correspondent on the Six o clock news it looks very likely as things stand that the boys and girls in the Dail maybe calling to our doors soon looking for votes. Wrap up warm guys and girls it could be very cold. Of course Fitzgerald could do the decent thing, lol what was I thinking politician and decent in the same sentence.

Hitman3000

The FF justice spokesman has just confirmed that FF has no confidence in Fitzgerald so she now has a choice fall on her sword or cause all her colleagues to have to apply for the gravy train again soon.

Odhinn

gizmo555 wrote: »

Fitzgerald has claimed several times, including in the Dáil today, that for her to have voiced an opinion to the Garda Commissioner on the Commissioner's plans to stitch up McCabe would have been "illegal" and a "crime". What law would have been broken and what crime committed? Unsurprisingly, Fitzgerald didn't clarify those points.

Even if that was the case the question arises that - after the inquiry - what would have stopped her asking about it in hindsight, after it became clear it was dropped? A question should have remained in her mind as regards the integrity of morris mccabe, or a question been raised in her mind as regards the integrity of either the garda commissioner or - at the very least - two gardai who had sworn testimony about him.

McMurphy

gizmo555 wrote: »

Fitzgerald has claimed several times, including in the D today, that for her to have voiced an opinion to the Garda Commissioner on the Commissioner's plans to stitch up McCabe would have been "illegal" and a "crime". What law would have been broken and what crime committed? Unsurprisingly, Fitzgerald didn't clarify those points.

She's hiding behind legalality issues now that she's been found out. Was their any thing legal or illegal that was preventing her speaking out at some stage, and refusing to back NOS when asked whether she had confidence in her or not?

Can't help but feel that Leo has been blindsided here by the "old guard" from within FG.

I very much doubt Fitzgerald was the only one that was aware of the absolute filth the guards hierarchy were up to in the shadows in an effort to discredit McCabe

FrancieBrady

She is as good as gone. The walking dead now that O'Callaghan has laid out the FF position.
Varadkar needs to get the finger out and sack her.

munsterlegend

Given the FF position it's impossible now for Fitzgerald to remain as Tanaiste. She surely will resign though it said on the news she is digging her heels in. I can't see Leo sacking her.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Well let's look at your hysterical contribution again:



There was absolutely no suggestion from any media outlet or anywhere else that she would be gone this morning, yet you chose to put that out there.

Wild speculation is probably an understatement in that context.

I was listening to a discussion on the radio around 7am this morning and the contributor said they would be amazed if she lasted the day.
I coupled that with my belief that Varadkar would do the decent thing and sack her and not drag this nonsense out.
Seems I was wrong, Varadkar, having corrected the record 5 times now, seems determined to be another Enda.

Odhinn

Fianna Fáil's justice spokesperson has said his party can no longer express confidence in Tánaiste Frances Fitzgerald and she "should go".

Speaking on RTÉ's Six One News, Jim O'Callaghan said the events of the last week undermined the Confidence and Supply Agreement between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil.

He said Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin had spoken yesterday by telephone with Taoiseach Leo Varadker to express this view.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/1123/922187-fitzgerald-politics/

I'd imagine this is the choreographed move to get her to jump, rather than take the lot of them off to the polls.

Odhinn

In more Garda related news -

The acting Garda Commissioner has told the Policing Authority that he has decided not to pursue widespread disciplinary action across the garda organisation over the falsification of breath tests.

Dónall Ó Cualáin said he was aware that this may not meet people's expectations but such a course of action was not feasible.

He said he was not prepared to spend huge amounts of taxpayers' money on costly and protracted processes when it would be better spent on protecting the community.

Two garda reports were carried out into the falsification of breath tests and 14,700 wrongful convictions.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1123/922348-false-breath-tests/

(Thats 1,8 million false breath tests at last estimate. And check points that never existed)

That's Essentially - 'Too many were at it, so we're letting it go'. Which, if the word of a garda was the same as the next man on the street, would be a not illogical course of action.

It was he said sloppy, lazy, unprofessional behaviour for which he again apologised.

And it was fundamentally dishonest, which is why a load of blown-in kits and check points that never existed is actually quite alarming. Where else do Gardai feel free to not only bend the truth, but actively lie?

Muahahaha

If Francis Fitzgerald falls on her sword then that will mean that the entire Maurice McCabe affair has seen off two Garda Commissioners, a Minister for Justice and a Tanaiste and former Minister for Justice. At this stage they must all be regretting not taking McCabe seriously, with his recordings he has literally run rings around the Gardai hierarchy and Fine Gael for three years now.

And all done with Michael McDowell throwing shapes in the background. Both McCabe and McDowell have done the State some serious service here. If only Fine Gael had of realised it this mess would be long over. They have had three years to sort this out and yet here we are looking like another head is about to roll.

Odhinn

Muahahaha wrote: »

If Francis Fitzgerald falls on her sword then that will mean that the entire Maurice McCabe affair has seen off two Garda Commissioners, a Minister for Justice and a Tanaiste and former Minister for Justice. At this stage they must all be regretting not taking McCabe seriously, with his recordings he has literally run rings around the Gardai hierarchy and Fine Gael for three years now.

And all done with Michael McDowell throwing shapes in the background. Both McCabe and McDowell have done the State some serious service here. If only Fine Gael had of realised it this mess would be long over. They have had three years to sort this out and yet here we are looking like another head is about to roll.

In a sense there's been decades for this to be sorted out. However nobody has had the wherewithal or will to bring the Gardai under proper oversight. As time goes on I imagine the whole breathlyser business will be seen as a lighthearted moment. The attempt to brand Garda McCabe as a child molester is not a unique abuse of Garda power by senior gardai. Detective Superintendent Taylor had a "file" opened on him - something that should only happen if he's deemed a threat to national security. If somebody is willing to do that to an innocent senior member of the gardai for what appears to be dissent, what of others of lesser rank, and those outside the force who have crossed paths with Martin Callinan, et al?
https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0229/771637-garda-press-officer/

James Brown

Might there be criminal charges pursued against the Tusla staff member? Does anyone seriously buy it was a clerical error?

Beechwoodspark

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Might there be criminal charges pursued against the Tusla staff member? Does anyone seriously buy it was a clerical error?

It's the oddest clerical error ever. I'm hoping Charleton will investigate thoroughly

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Might there be criminal charges pursued against the Tusla staff member? Does anyone seriously buy it was a clerical error?

Not for a second.

However, we might think of the scenario. A police force is commanded by a man with a fearsome reputation within that force, who demands absolute loyalty, dedication and committment and uses his own criteria in judging who meets those standards. A man who is known throughout his career for dealing with those who cross him most harshly, and operates with few limits and seemingly no penalty for his behaviour, who becomes the highest ranked police officer in a state. When a person like this makes their will known, its fairly true to say that there would be both those who rush to make it a reality, not only out of loyalty, but of fear of the consequences of earning his notorious displeasure.

FrancieBrady

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

It's the oddest clerical error ever. I'm hoping Charleton will investigate thoroughly

That's the thing, who knows how many more this will take down.
Leo is not a wet week in the job and he has corrected the Dail record 5 times.
It could yet cost him more.

James Brown

Fianna Fail calling for her to go.
Will Varadkar relent or we talking snap election?

Hard to call. Varadkar's Fine Gael seem to value perception over all else.

flutered

FrancieBrady wrote: »

She could be gone before the Dail sits to discuss this today.

friday evening, leaving the weekend free for ffg to patch up their differences

FrancieBrady

flutered wrote: »

friday evening, leaving the weekend free for ffg to patch up their differences

I get the distinct feeling they are choreographing it all. Faux anger, go through the motions, Frances fed to the lions and move on.

One party running the country with a few independents.

Beechwoodspark

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's the thing, who knows how many more this will take down.
Leo is not a wet week in the job and he has corrected the Dail record 5 times.
It could yet cost him more.

Leo is full of it. Despite his propaganda unit People are slowly copping on