The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

Nettle Soup

blanch152 wrote: »

No, I am not behind the curve.

What you are saying is that the Tanaise should have rung a senior Garda and interfered in the course of justice. That is wrong and is always wrong.

What story are you on about now? Try and stick to the facts. By the way, she met the commissioner the next day...

Interfered in the course of justice?!
How ironic

It was a smear campaign based on falsehoods and lies!

Fann Linn

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Still no sign of the files from the trawl which the Department of Justice committed to publishing by 2.30pm today.

Probably getting everything redacted!

Water John

Yeah, remember the Gardai had the habit of proving docs the night before or the morning of PAC meetings.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

No, I am not behind the curve.

What you are saying is that the Tanaise should have rung a senior Garda and interfered in the course of justice. That is wrong and is always wrong.

Would have not been a case of the Justice Minister calling the top Garda and asking for assurance any impartial investigation remained impartial? What was the then Justice Minister's role in all this? No oversight?

Sierra Oscar

https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon/status/935218551694217217

The Tánaiste will have to resign. It appears she was kept abreast of all developments, and was also told about the phonecall made by the Garda Commissioner to the Department of Justice. She denied just yesterday that she was ever aware of this phonecall.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Would have not been a case of the Justice Minister calling the top Garda and asking for assurance any impartial investigation remained impartial?

I can imagine it now, Martin Ferris TD, Minister for Justice, ringing the top Garda, asking for assurance that any impartial investigation into the good Republican Shlab Murphy, a good friend of his and Gerry Adams, and a true man of the people, remained impartial.

It is only when you apply your request to another similar situation that you realise how dangerous such an approach to justice is.

Fann Linn

blanch152 wrote: »

I can imagine it now, Martin Ferris TD, Minister for Justice, ringing the top Garda, asking for assurance that any impartial investigation into the good Republican Shlab Murphy, a good friend of his and Gerry Adams, and a true man of the people, remained impartial.

It is only when you apply your request to another similar situation that you realise how dangerous such an approach to justice is.

Why bring the Shinners into this when clearly its FG thats involved?

emo72

blanch152 wrote: »

I can imagine it now, Martin Ferris TD, Minister for Justice, ringing the top Garda, asking for assurance that any impartial investigation into the good Republican Shlab Murphy, a good friend of his and Gerry Adams, and a true man of the people, remained impartial.

It is only when you apply your request to another similar situation that you realise how dangerous such an approach to justice is.

If you guys could do a half reasonable job then SF mightn't start to look like a reasonable alternative.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

No, I am not behind the curve.

What you are saying is that the Tanaise should have rung a senior Garda and interfered in the course of justice. That is wrong and is always wrong.

Strange that a senior official in her department had no trouble doing it.

Do you believe this senior official will be prosecuted for doing so due to this non-existent Attorney General advice ?

charlie14

Fann Linn wrote: »

Why bring the Shinners into this when clearly its FG thats involved?

If we were talking about making custard that poster would bring the Shinners into the conversation.:)

Sierra Oscar

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/935221928306135041

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/935222143989813249

https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon/status/935222142551158785

It's not looking great for the Tánaiste.

Tell me how

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/935221928306135041

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/935222143989813249

It's not looking great for the Tánaiste.

It's moving in to, "if she knew so definitively, how much did the full government know?" territory.

Fann Linn

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon/status/935218551694217217

The Tánaiste will have to resign. It appears she was kept abreast of all developments, and was also told about the phonecall made by the Garda Commissioner to the Department of Justice. She denied just yesterday that she was ever aware of this phonecall.

If all the above is correct will Leo now throw her under a bus or will he call an election?

charlie14

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon/status/935218551694217217

The Tánaiste will have to resign. It appears she was kept abreast of all developments, and was also told about the phonecall made by the Garda Commissioner to the Department of Justice. She denied just yesterday that she was ever aware of this phonecall.

If this is the case then I cannot see it going as far as a vote of confidence.

Varadkar will have no options other than sacking her.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I can imagine it now, Martin Ferris TD, Minister for Justice, ringing the top Garda, asking for assurance that any impartial investigation into the good Republican Shlab Murphy, a good friend of his and Gerry Adams, and a true man of the people, remained impartial.

It is only when you apply your request to another similar situation that you realise how dangerous such an approach to justice is.

That's excellent

So the Justice Minister has no business asking the Chief Super to give an assurance an impartial investigation remains impartial on foot of information received?

Your analogy would work if you were suggesting Fitzgerald has some personal relationship with McCabe and McCabe was the one being pursued by the revenue for dodging tax, like Slab and Fine Gael (for 9 years); Some stretch fair play.

Sierra Oscar

Fann Linn wrote: »

If all the above is correct will Leo now throw her under a bus or will he call an election?

It's certainly a sackable offence. There's suspicion that Leo wants an election now as there is more to come out. Was the Department of Taoiseach aware of this situation?

Beechwoodspark

So F Fitz knew about the legal strategy all along?

She's toast

emo72

Why would she need to be coached on it, if she wasn't aware of it?

Fann Linn

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So F Fitz knew about the legal strategy all along?

She's toast

And a bare faced liar.

Tell me how

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So F Fitz knew about the legal strategy all along?

She's toast

But how many more in that Government knew also? FF might see this as enough to go after the full government at the time in an effort to discredit them and look to gain significantly to allow them hold the reins after an election.

charlie14

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's certainly a sackable offence. There's suspicion that Leo wants an election now as there is more to come out. Was the Department of Taoiseach aware of this situation?

That would go a long way to explaining the whole idea being pushed by FG of burying this in a Disclosure Tribunal that has shown it is a waste of time.

Hitman3000

Fann Linn wrote:

Why bring the Shinners into this when clearly its FG thats involved?

It's called whataboutery or deflection.

Nettle Soup

Wow, Fine Gael aren't even very competent at covering up.
What a shambles but to be fair, we all knew Fitzgerald was lying.

Sierra Oscar

It's all over, folks.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/935228605638086661

Mr.Micro

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Wow, Fine Gael aren't even very competent at covering up.
What a shambles but to be fair, we all knew Fitzgerald was lying.

That's what happens when one is too long around the DoJ and an Garda. Lies and more lies

James Brown

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's all over, folks.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/935228605638086661

Can folks post a quote? I can't access twitter

Sierra Oscar

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Can folks post a quote? I can't access twitter

Apologies, I thought the tweets were embedded!

Gavan Reilly Today FM wrote:

FG TDs pulling down the shutters over this. No appetite to defend now

Loafing Oaf

The Taoiseach and the Tanaiste in the near future:

hatrickpatrick

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Maurice McCabe saying what he liked ?
I know timelines are getting confused, but this takes the biscuit.

Frances Fitzgerald and all the Fianna Gailers seem to have a different email set up to me.
I have on occasion not read or not seen or forgotten emails.
If something gets "controversial" I can search my inbox and find stuff from ages back.
I would have thought that words or phrases like O Sullivan / McCabe / Tribunal / Guerin or all the other awkward words would have pulled this one up for Frances.

Incompetent.
Lying.
Either or both.

This to me is why the whole email saga has been complete bullsh!t. It takes me, a very ordinary citizens with a fairly mundane way of life about two seconds to dig up an email I was sent as far back as 2001, when I created my first and only primary email address - using simple keywords and my email provider's web search facility.

If this is not possible for the minister for justice, then we have to ask questions about what ramshackle email system is being used in government departments which does not store all emails indefinitely and allow simple keyword searches of those archives.

The only potential explanations I can think of are (a) there were so many emails about McCabe and the tribunal being sent and received at the time that it was easy to miss this one among the many search results returned, or that (b) the minister is computer illiterate enough that performing a simple keyword search is beyond her.

If the latter turns out to be the case, then I guess it makes an argument that ministers should have some kind of brief IT crash course before taking office. If the former turns out to be the case, then that's reasonable to an extent, although this issues is of such great magnitude that it comes back to a point I made earlier in this thread - if the argument is "there were 300 emails from that period with McCabe's name in them and it was too much effort to trawl through them all", well touch sh!t, that's part of the job. Just as it's not ok to pass the buck on doing the right thing by failing to discipline Gardai over the breath testing scandal because "there are too many for it to be practical", it is similarly not ok to pass the buck on doing the right thing because "there were too many emails to bother reading through".

But the main underlying issue here, as I've said before, is not actually the behaviour of FitzGerald at the time - it's the behaviour of FitzGerald, Flanagan, and Varadkar over the last two weeks since Alan Kelly tabled his Dail questions and the whole issue resurfaced for the bajillionth time. It is a case of, I'm sorry to say, Fine Gael's usual tactics ever since the early days of Enda Kenny's tenure as Taoiseach - their instinct is to cover up, to deflect, to obfuscate, to bluster. And that is unacceptable in any government, regardless of any other factors.

As Fintan O'Toole put it in the Irish Times last week, "If the government is innocent, then why is it acting so guilty?"

This is as much about the "tell the people nothing, answer the bare minimum of questions, our actions and deliberations are on an elevated plane far above that which the riff raff 'need to know' about" culture of recent governments in Ireland as it is anything else, and that to me is the real issue here. The purpose of the Dail and the opposition in particular is to hold the government to account. When members of the executive appear in front of the Oireachtas and they straight up refuse to answer questions about issues of public importance, that is a fundamental betrayal of the democratic concepts underpinning our state. When Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein comprise the main opposition parties, and the government consistently deflects to whataboutery bullsh!t when questioned by them (on display last week, "but what about the IRA!" when SF ask questions, "but what about the crash" when FF ask them), they are missing a fundamental point about the nature of representative democracy - the opposition's questions in the Dail are not for the benefit of the opposition, they are the indirect mechanism for us, the people, to get answers about issues of public importance. So when the government response by attacking those asking questions, they are not merely scoring cheap political points over the opposition, but they are rendering themselves fundamentally unaccountable to the public, and that is something which should never, ever be tolerated.

It's not about who's in opposition - that is rather irrelevant. When a sitting government is asked questions by the opposition, that's for the benefit of us, the general public, to learn about what our government is doing on our behalf. So regardless of who the opposition is or what history of bickering there might be, they'd better f*cking answer the questions, simple as that. If they don't, they are insulting and slapping the general public in the face, not just the individual politicians sitting opposite them in the chamber - and that's something which we as the public shouldn't have to put up with.

To be honest, in the future I'd like to see the Dail standing orders tightened to give the Ceann Comhairle of the day a power akin to that of a television debate presenter - to interrupt spin and bluster with a comment such as "minister, the question you were asked related specifically to X, please comment directly on X and do so in a clear and concise manner for the Dail record". Or if the Ceann Comhairle already has such powers, I would like to see them deployed far more frequently against blustering ministers. I know they already have similar powers when it comes to politicians using question time to grandstand instead of actually asking a question, and I'm delighted at how often such incidents tend to get shut down by the Ceann Comhairle over the last few years - we need something similar to deal with those refusing to answer questions as well.

Nettle Soup

Mr.Micro wrote: »

That's what happens when one is too long around the DoJ and an Garda. Lies and more lies

Ah no, they are not lies...she simply forgot :rolleyes:

constance tench

https://twitter.com/paddylogue/status/935227361607536640

https://twitter.com/SarahBardon/status/935229706613481472

James Brown

Varadkar can do the decent thing, say he was misinformed. Fitzgerald can resign/be sacked and we can all move on, but I expect Varadkar is far too conceited. We will see where all the talk of stable government is and which is more important; the country or the party ego.

Nettle Soup

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But the main underlying issue here, as I've said before, is not actually the behaviour of FitzGerald at the time - it's the behaviour of FitzGerald, Flanagan, and Varadkar over the last two weeks since Alan Kelly tabled his Dail questions and the whole issue resurfaced for the bajillionth time. It is a case of, I'm sorry to say, Fine Gael's usual tactics ever since the early days of Enda Kenny's tenure as Taoiseach - their instinct is to cover up, to deflect, to obfuscate, to bluster. And that is unacceptable in any government, regardless of any other factors.

I blamed Enda for all that. I felt he created a culture of cover-up and spoof.

But this is happening under Leo's watch. I did expect him to be more open, honest and direct, as he was before he became leader.

Fine Gael's reputation is in tatters now.

tobsey

Fitzgerald’s position is untenable. She has to go. Either way an election is needed in the spring. This current government deal is dead.

Tell me how

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I blamed Enda for all that. I felt he created a culture of cover-up and spoof.

But this is happening under Leo's watch. I did expect him to be more open, honest and direct, as he was before he became leader.

Fine Gael's reputation is in tatters now.

Sure is, you'd imagine SF and FF hacks are now looking at the PR around this and how damaging it is to FG and maybe the time for and election is now. Disaster from a country perspective if so.

Fann Linn

Is her selection convention on Wednesday? Party atmosphere I think not.

Edward M

If all these revelations are founded on fact, FF may go for the jugular, a motion of no confidence in the govt!

charlie14

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's all over, folks.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/935228605638086661

This does not reflect well on Varadkar.

I thought Coveney`s FF quote on political accountability today was strange. If he knew about these email today from a source doing the trawl before saying it, it sounds now as if it could be the opening shot in an attempt at toppling Varadkar.

Water John

Well both Leo and Michael knew, that if the trawl threw up any thing, it would change everything. Whilst some here were jumping around the place, with nothing to see here, based on smoke, it was time for squeaky bum and see what would come.
Frances had stated her case. Leo was fine with that, as long as the evidence in the trawl supported that position. But one suspects both Leo and Michael guessed there was more. Alan Kelly probably knew there was more.

I think Leo and Michael will be actually pleased that the evidence will make the decision for them. If Frances goes their will be no election, but the reform of DOJ will also be agreed.

James Brown

It's of great concern that any election might put FF in the driving seat, more than FG put them in any way. If Sinn Fein have any PR skills they'll have Adams take a back seat and let ML McD begin to play leader.
I don't think this will cause any great damage to Fine Gael, not as much as the whole housing/homeless/health shambles any way.

JohnBoy26

blanch152 wrote: »

I can imagine it now, Martin Ferris TD, Minister for Justice, ringing the top Garda, asking for assurance that any impartial investigation into the good Republican Shlab Murphy, a good friend of his and Gerry Adams, and a true man of the people, remained impartial.

It is only when you apply your request to another similar situation that you realise how dangerous such an approach to justice is.

Mother of god!, Talk about deflection.

It's a member of your beloved fine gael that is at fault here. Why can't you accept that instead of blaming everyone else?

Nettle Soup

Water John wrote: »

Well both Leo and Michael knew, that if the trawl threw up any thing, it would change everything. Whilst some here were jumping around the place, with nothing to see here, based on smoke, it was time for squeaky bum and see what would come.
Frances had stated her case. Leo was fine with that, as long as the evidence in the trawl supported that position. But one suspects both Leo and Michael guessed there was more. Alan Kelly probably knew there was more.

Alan has actually been unusually quiet in the last 3 days. He knew the score. He was waiting for his chance to pounce (again).

Labour are in survival mode now - the remain relevant while they are in the headlines.

Fascinating election in store - and a dirty one!!

Tell me how

Water John wrote: »

I think Leo and Michael will be actually pleased that the evidence will make the decision for them. If Frances goes their will be no election, but the reform of DOJ will also be agreed.

There is no "If" now surely. It's only a question of walking or hitting the door at speed.

hatrickpatrick

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I blamed Enda for all that. I felt he created a culture of cover-up and spoof.

But this is happening under Leo's watch. I did expect him to be more open, honest and direct, as he was before he became leader.

Fine Gael's reputation is in tatters now.

This exactly. As a friend of mine said last week, I'd bet there are some Varadkar supporters who are quietly wondering whether Coveney might have handled this better. Varadkar has absolutely taken up Enda's mantle of utterly sh!tty communications practise - that mantle which is widely suggested to have hugely contributed to the FG's losses during the last election.

It's insanely disappointing. I was never a huge fan of Varadkar's "manner" when speaking publicly but I honestly never thought he could possibly be as bad as Enda - it's not just bluster, it's smug bluster, obfuscation with a sprinkling of gloating thrown in. No matter what subject is up for discussion, Enda, and now Varadkar, are seemingly incapable of delivering a statement with enough gravitas to leave the snide one-upmanship out of it even for five minutes, and it's an utterly toxic way for a government to communicate.

I honestly feel that inside the chamber of the Dail, these people seem to forget that they're not just trading barbs directly with the people seated opposite them, they are also making statements on the official record of our state's parliament, for public consumption. Without that very simple underlying understanding, the Dail has descended into an utter joke.

EDIT: I don't know enough about Coveney to say whether he would treat the Dail with more respect and decorum by the way, I'm not suggesting that he necessarily would have, but I do feel that there is likely a certain amount of buyer's remorse on the part of those who snubbed him for Varadkar, given how things have panned out.

charlie14

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Varadkar can do the decent thing, say he was misinformed. Fitzgerald can resign/be sacked and we can all move on, but I expect Varadkar is far too conceited. We will see where all the talk of stable government is and which is more important; the country or the party ego.

I do not see any options for Varadkar other than now sacking Fitzgerald. Allowing her to simply resign would be a complete dereliction of duty.

If it comes to an election it will be because this goes to a vote of no confidence in Fitzgerald for which his own TD`s would tear Varadkar a new one.

If, as is crystal clear to anyone with eyes, he sacks Fitzgerald, FF would have no option but to withdraw their motion even if at this point they are most likely licking their lips at the prospect of a GE.

Nettle Soup

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This exactly. As a friend of mine said last week, I'd bet there are some Varadkar supporters who are quietly wondering whether Coveney might have handled this better. Varadkar has absolutely taken up Enda's mantle of utterly sh!tty communications practise - that mantle which is widely suggested to have hugely contributed to the FG's losses during the last election.

It's insanely disappointing. I was never a huge fan of Varadkar's "manner" when speaking publicly but I honestly never thought he could possibly be as bad as Enda - it's not just bluster, it's smug bluster, obfuscation with a sprinkling of gloating thrown in. No matter what subject is up for discussion, Enda, and now Varadkar, are seemingly incapable of delivering a statement with enough gravitas to leave the snide one-upmanship out of it even for five minutes, and it's an utterly toxic way for a government to communicate.

I honestly feel that inside the chamber of the Dail, these people seem to forget that they're not just trading barbs directly with the people seated opposite them, they are also making statements on the official record of our state's parliament, for public consumption. Without that very simple underlying understanding, the Dail has descended into an utter joke.

EDIT: I don't know enough about Coveney to say whether he would treat the Dail with more respect and decorum by the way, I'm not suggesting that he necessarily would have, but I do feel that there is likely a certain amount of buyer's remorse on the part of those who snubbed him for Varadkar, given how things have panned out.

Broadly agree but I think Coveney would be a worse FG leader. I don't think Simon has achieved anything in his political career and he always came across as a young Enda to me. Another waffler.

I think Coveney might stay quiet for a few days now (he has been relatively quiet over the weekend) and let all the mud stick to Leo.

hatrickpatrick

blanch152 wrote: »

I can imagine it now, Martin Ferris TD, Minister for Justice, ringing the top Garda, asking for assurance that any impartial investigation into the good Republican Shlab Murphy, a good friend of his and Gerry Adams, and a true man of the people, remained impartial.

It is only when you apply your request to another similar situation that you realise how dangerous such an approach to justice is.

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Mother of god!, Talk about deflection.

It's a member of your beloved fine gael that is at fault here. Why can't you accept that instead of blaming everyone else?

This is exactly the kind of sh!te I'm talking about - and it's one thing for us punters on an anonymous online discussion forum, but this is literally the kind of deflection we're having to put up with from members of our government when speaking in an official capacity either in the media or even in our actual parliament.

How anybody can see and hear this stuff without being utterly infuriated is beyond me. You can despise SF and the IRA as much as the next person and still understand that this is a totally unacceptable manner for a sitting government to behave, dodging public accountability by constantly attacking the opposition on issues entirely irrelevant to the present conversation, in response to reasonable, legitimate questions.

hatrickpatrick

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Broadly agree but I think Coveney would be a worse FG leader. I don't think Simon has achieved anything in his political career and he always came across as a young Enda to me. Another waffler.

I think Coveney might stay quiet for a few days now (he has been relatively quiet over the weekend) and let all the mud stick to Leo.

Presumably if the government collapses and Fine Gael get slaughtered during the subsequent election or even just fail to secure anything other than another minority government (which I'm seriously rooting for - having a Dail which actually wields significant power over the cabinet has been a massive breath of fresh air, even if it is FF and SF who are fronting it), then Varadkar's tenure as party leader will be over before it's had much chance to begin?

I can't see that FG would be up for a leadership election so soon after the last one, but surely there must be party loyalists, maybe even those who supported Varadkar earlier this year, who can see that his lack of communication skills is an absolute liability going forward?

Edward M

I'd say Enda will be in hiding for a while with this new info, was he being briefed on this at the time I wonder?

Nettle Soup

It could be open season on Charlie Flanagan next. Another lying by omission.
If they can find him