The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

sdanseo

Water John wrote: »

I think Leo and Michael will be actually pleased that the evidence will make the decision for them. If Frances goes their will be no election, but the reform of DOJ will also be agreed.

This will blow up in FG's face. Leo has often come across as a bit too smug for someone too new in the job and his steadfast defence of Fitzgerald has in the space of an evening transformed from an almost honourable standing of his ground to being completely embarrassed.

On Thursday there was a motion of no confidence in the Tánaiste for failing to do what was ethically correct and apparently so failing because she didn't see an email.

Tomorrow, she will resign or be sacked for having an army of advisors who are all computer illiterate, or unambiguously lying to the Dáil.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's insanely disappointing. I was never a huge fan of Varadkar's "manner" when speaking publicly but I honestly never thought he could possibly be as bad as Enda - it's not just bluster, it's smug bluster, obfuscation with a sprinkling of gloating thrown in. No matter what subject is up for discussion, Enda, and now Varadkar, are seemingly incapable of delivering a statement with enough gravitas to leave the snide one-upmanship out of it even for five minutes, and it's an utterly toxic way for a government to communicate.

Aside from the fact that I actually had a lot of time for his manner - he came across as relatively straight shooting, I couldn't agree more. He's had ups and downs since July but overall it's been uninspiring.

He had an awful lot less "eh"'s in his sentences before becoming Taoiseach.

hatrickpatrick

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I blamed Enda for all that. I felt he created a culture of cover-up and spoof.

Actually just to revisit this, I'd amend this sentiment slightly - Enda didn't create such a culture, FF did going all the way back to Haughey and continued under Bertie and subsequently Cowen/Lenihan. What Enda has done, which is what made the post-2011 years so infuriating, is to copy this culture from FF to FG, when FG ran on a platform of being above that kind of crap. The lack of communication skills and the culture of cover-up and spoof you describe is one of the things which comes up again and again among people who regarded FG as "same as the old boss" post-FF - being hamstrung policy-wise can be explained away by pressure from the Troika as well as the disastrous mess FF left them with economically, but behaving like FF with regard to public accountability and communications is entirely within their own power to choose, so they are rightly condemned for it, possibly more so than for their policy choices. In other words, while they can claim to have had their hands tied with regard to policy, they cannot claim to have had their hands tied with regard to choosing to treat the opposition and the general public with contempt any time they responded to question or criticism.

StringerBell

People like Fitzgerald who lie repeatedly, unashamedly and seek to pull the wool over the eyes of the country and pervert the course of justice should be thrown in jail.

Just forgot, good person, bollix.

LuckyLloyd

I'm almost half looking forward to seeing how the FG disciples continue to try and spin this as 'nothing to see here'. Why have they continued to try and lie and cover up this whole McCabe scandal? They could have rolled heads nice and early a couple of years ago. It's baffling to me.

James Brown

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm almost half looking forward to seeing how the FG disciples continue to try and spin this as 'nothing to see here'. Why have they continued to try and lie and cover up this whole McCabe scandal? They could have rolled heads nice and early a couple of years ago. It's baffling to me.

As has been asked; you'd have wonder is there more dirt? O'Sullivan was practically put on a pedestal.

charlie14

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Broadly agree but I think Coveney would be a worse FG leader. I don't think Simon has achieved anything in his political career and he always came across as a young Enda to me. Another waffler.

I think Coveney might stay quiet for a few days now (he has been relatively quiet over the weekend) and let all the mud stick to Leo.

During the FG leader campaign I would have looked at Coveney as being a bit of a waffler, (not in Kenny`s league, nobody could be ), but he was at least someone that might try.
Varadkar just stuck me as all flash and little substance.

Totally agree on Coveney staying quite in the long grass now seeing what the fallout is.
When it came down to it he now looks as having a lot more political savvy than Varadkar by not committing much, if any, skin to the game.

tomwaterford

It's unfathomable she can survive this??

Its unfathomable people still defend this....seriously poor ethical judgement by people here


Repeatedly lying to the dail....is there a process to impeach a member of the dail?


This late late leak,with a no confidence vote tomorrow has ff over a barrel.

Why bother having the dail (and legal immunity) and people just flat out lie in there and deliberately mislead the public....it's a fcuking joke, in no country would this be anything approaching acceptable/classed as a non issue

George Sunsnow

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm almost half looking forward to seeing how the FG disciples continue to try and spin this as 'nothing to see here'. Why have they continued to try and lie and cover up this whole McCabe scandal? They could have rolled heads nice and early a couple of years ago. It's baffling to me.

Well this one is Raging at the former justice minister
There is no now option but for her to go
A 2nd email and pr advice duly noted :eek:
I’m livid :mad:
I do not believe though for one second that vradaker knew about this
But I do believe whoever prompted Alan Kelly to ask questions knew what was going to come out and wanted it out before a tribunal not during
Half the justice dept will be called as witness’s now and good enough for them

devnull

Leo was my previous TD, and I can tell you that he was someone who actually cared about the people in his area and campaigned for them and did his very best for them, I would have much more faith in him than I would have in a lot of people I have met in politics.

Do we even know how much Leo really knew about this when he made his comments?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

charlie14

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm almost half looking forward to seeing how the FG disciples continue to try and spin this as 'nothing to see here'. Why have they continued to try and lie and cover up this whole McCabe scandal? They could have rolled heads nice and early a couple of years ago. It's baffling to me.

It looks as if like the fox and the scorpion it is just in their nature.

Like the whole water charges fiasco, rather than have an early climb-down, they have to stick with it until it becomes a humiliation.

Fann Linn

According to Gavin Reilly on Twitter, Leo knew of the Garda\Minister 2015 email chain of events on Friday.

If this is correct why did he have everyone defending her over the week end?

sdanseo

As a slight aside, I'm somewhere between amused and outraged by - and can't get my head round - the electorate being happier to sit back and watch the government essentially eviscerate itself than have an election the week before Christmas. Being involved in democracy isn't that bloody inconvenient and government does still function while it happens. Lame duck maybe, and the issue of the Brexit summit etc is a seperate barrier, but I just don't get the "ah feck that too close to the Christmas" attitude by large sections of society.

McMurphy

devnull wrote: »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Foresight is a better one.

Leo let the wool be pulled over his eyes on this one.


Frances has him dragged down with her.

Nettle Soup

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Well this one is Raging at the former justice minister
There is no now option but for her to go
A 2nd email and pr advice duly noted :eek:
I’m livid :mad:
I do not believe though for one second that vradaker knew about this
But I do believe whoever prompted Alan Kelly to ask questions knew what was going to come out and wanted it out before a tribunal not during
Half the justice dept will be called as witness’s now and good enough for them

Well said. I am disgusted too.

I also believe Varadkar did not know when he spoke in the Dáil.

I think the leak in DoJ (Kelly's contact) knew that the Tribunal had not been sent the pertinent emails and thought that simply wrong.

What is the punishment for hiding details from the tribunal? €300,000?

Hitman3000

Fann Linn wrote:

If this is correct why did he have everyone defending her over the week end?

I think Leo will not escape this saga undamaged. I suspect Coveney is secretly rubbing his hands in glee.

tomwaterford

devnull wrote: »

Leo was my previous TD, and I can tell you that he was someone who actually cared about the people in his area and campaigned for them and did his very best for them, I would have much more faith in him than I would have in a lot of people I have met in politics.

Do we even know how much Leo really knew about this when he made his comments?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Looks like he made the mistake of believing his taniste who has clearly mislead him



It's a unreal situation,a election will return a same dead locked dail....maybe with switch of ff/fg

Where now you have an agrived fg propping up ff....or ff propping up fg with the ludicrous scenario of the same taniste again

sdanseo

Fann Linn wrote: »

According to Gavin Reilly on Twitter, Leo knew of the Garda\Minister 2015 email chain of events on Friday.

If this is correct why did he have everyone defending her over the week end?

If this is true, he needs to be either on the Nine O'Clock news or in Michael D's sitting room come 41 minutes from now.

Obvious Otter

People should listen to the interviews on Morning Ireland this morning to see what Fine Gael are all about. They were backing Frances and claimed that she did no wrong. There was at least 4 FG TD’s on this morning backing her.

These are the same whingers who claimed to be cut from a different cloth than Fianna Fáil. It was embarrassing to listen to a bunch of yes men. No backbone.

devnull

I don't want an election, mostly because I don't think it's healthy for the country right now and it will mean stuff like the 8th amendment and various other committees will have to be thrown in the bin and delayed and I don't think that is a good thing for the country, I also don't want us to be in a state of flux and uncertainity when Brexit is going on.

I won't lie, the prospect of a FF led populist over-spending government that buys everyone off with blank cheques to kick cans down the road to avoid dealing with the underlying problem to the point the country hemorrhages money to the point it becomes a crisis doesn't appeal to me either though.

Fann Linn

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Well said. I am disgusted too.

I also believe Varadkar did not know.

I think the leak in DoJ (Kelly's contact) knew that the Tribunal had not been sent the pertinent emails and thought that simply wrong.

What is the punishment for hiding details from the tribunal? €300,000?

He knew on Friday according to Gavin Reilly, and still he said he would not throw her under a bus and risked the country with an election and upcoming brexit talks looming.

Fairly reckless for a leader.

markodaly

Media are loving this me thinks more than anyone else. All of them trying to outdo the next with their twitter feeds.

James Brown

Seems the party faithful have dropped Fitzgerald and trying to throw Varadkar a line. How he tackles this will tell us enough. He's the leader, no longer able to get away with being the big mouth on the sideline with no follow through.

He's probably happy enough being able to put 'Taoiseach' on his LinkedIn profile.

devnull

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Foresight is a better one.

Leo let the wool be pulled over his eyes on this one.


Frances has him dragged down with her.

So how many people on this thread could predict this happening the way it did?

Nobody. But you expect other people to have some superpower like mystic meg!

Tell me how

devnull wrote: »

I don't want an election, mostly because I don't think it's healthy for the country right now and it will mean stuff like the 8th amendment and various other committees will have to be thrown in the bin and delayed and I don't think that is a good thing for the country, I also don't want us to be in a state of flux and uncertainity when Brexit is going on.

I won't lie, the prospect of a FF led populist over-spending government that buys everyone off with blank cheques to kick cans down the road to avoid dealing with the underlying problem to the point the country hemorrhages money to the point it becomes a crisis doesn't appeal to me either though.

An election at this time is a disaster (I'm primarily thinking about Brexit).
This government is done though, even if it limps out of this one, it's only a matter of time.

Hitman3000

Fann Linn wrote:

Fairly reckless for a leader.

Not the actions of a leader.

devnull

markodaly wrote: »

Media are loving this me thinks more than anyone else. All of them trying to outdo the next with their twitter feeds.

I'm sure that RTE, being heavily unionised and also a state body, would not cry too much of a tear if FF replaced FG in government, would probably really suit them truth be told.

emo72

where did Blanch152 go?

Hitman3000

devnull wrote:

I won't lie, the prospect of a FF led populist over-spending government that buys everyone off with blank cheques to kick cans down the road to avoid dealing with the underlying problem to the point the country hemorrhages money to the point it becomes a crisis doesn't appeal to me either though.

How many cans have FG kicked down the road by now?

Sierra Oscar

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Seems the party faithful have dropped Fitzgerald and trying to throw Varadkar a line. How he tackles this will tell us enough. He's the leader, no longer able to get away with being the big mouth on the sideline with no follow through.

The Taoiseach was aware of these latest documents on Friday evening but was still willing to defend the Tánaiste all weekend.

Stunning. He should have sacked her. Instead he played a game of chicken to try and force Fianna Fáil down and has brought us to the brink of a General Election in the process.

Hitman3000

emo72 wrote:

where did Blanch152 go?

Off to get an up dated script.

devnull

Hitman3000 wrote: »

How many cans have FG kicked down the road by now?

I see the usual short term memory of the Irish electorate is here.

Hitman3000

devnull wrote:

So how many people on this thread could predict this happening the way it did?

People on this thread have been saying for the last 6 days she should be sacked or resign.

McMurphy

devnull wrote: »

So how many people on this thread could predict this happening the way it did?

Nobody. But you expect other people to have some superpower like mystic meg!

Leo knew about the emails since Friday, attempted to pin blame on incompetent civil servants, and still tried to brazen it out.

No one expects him to have tomorrow evenings euro millions, just some foresight to have common bloody sense.

He's the Taoiseach after all.

Most likely enter the record books for the shortest reigning one in fairness.

FrancieBrady

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Taoiseach was aware of these latest documents on Friday evening but was still willing to defend the Tánaiste all weekend.

Stunning. He should have sacked her. Instead he played a game of chicken to try and force Fianna Fáil down and has brought us to the brink of a General Election in the process.

I can't understand Varadkars thinking. The only thing that explains it all is that this all goes higher up the chain.
He is many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

markodaly

devnull wrote: »

I'm sure that RTE, being heavily unionised and also a state body, would not cry too much of a tear if FF replaced FG in government, would probably really suit them truth be told.

Well how many of the top guys in the DOJ would be old school FF'ers?

Par of the course to shaft someone like that. But there ya go.

devnull

Hitman3000 wrote: »

People on this thread have been saying for the last 6 days she should be sacked or resign.

Impressive side-step of the question that I actually asked.

So you couldn't predict that what would happen would, but you expect Leo to and just sack her without knowing the vital information that he would need for it to be fair?

If I acted that way to my staff then it would be considered unfair dismissal.

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't understand Varadkars thinking. The only thing that explains it all is that this all goes higher up the chain.
He is many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

I thought he was at the top of the chain, unless, of course, Micky D is pulling the strings!

McMurphy

devnull wrote: »

Impressive side-step of the question that I actually asked.

So you couldn't predict that what would happen would, but you expect Leo to and just sack her without knowing the vital information that he would need for it to be fair?

If I acted that way to my staff then it would be considered unfair dismissal.

He knew from at least Friday.

This is Monday.

Fann Linn

devnull wrote: »

Impressive side-step of the question that I actually asked.

So you couldn't predict that what would happen would, but you expect Leo to and just sack her without knowing the vital information that he would need for it to be fair?

If I acted that way to my staff then it would be considered unfair dismissal.

He knew on Friday.

tomwaterford

markodaly wrote: »

Well how many of the top guys in the DOJ would be old school FF'ers?

Par of the course to shaft someone like that. But there ya go.

It's unlikely the DOJ told her to go and lie to the dail?

devnull

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Most likely enter the record books for the shortest reigning one in fairness.

Bertie made a whole career over stroke politics and scandals, yet still some people kept voting for him for some reason, I guess it must have been the handouts and the incentives he gave people who were happy to turn a blind eye to the fact he was about as bad person in politics as they can.

Hitman3000

devnull wrote:

I see the usual short term memory of the Irish electorate is here.

Nothing wrong with my memory. I remember the tiger year budgets and FG shouting that FF hadn't cut enough taxes increased spending enough. I remember listening to Noonan asking Lenihen what he had against the 3rd child in a family when CA was cut during the start of the austerity budgets. You can claim there is a difference if you wish but personnelly I see zero difference between FG and FG.

charlie14

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Taoiseach was aware of these latest documents on Friday evening but was still willing to defend the Tánaiste all weekend.

Stunning. He should have sacked her. Instead he played a game of chicken to try and force Fianna Fáil down and has brought us to the brink of a General Election in the process.

To echo that FG TD.

Holy F**k.

Hitman3000

markodaly wrote:

Well how many of the top guys in the DOJ would be old school FF'ers?

Blanch was blaming the Shinners, you're blaming FF for Fitzgerald's incompetence. Seems legit.

Fann Linn

markodaly wrote: »

Well how many of the top guys in the DOJ would be old school FF'ers?

Par of the course to shaft someone like that. But there ya go.

This is great.
Blame SF, FF, Alan Kelly, DoJ, the Unions, AG, RTE.
But on no account blame Francis Fitzgerald or FG.

Hitman3000

devnull wrote:

So you couldn't predict that what would happen would, but you expect Leo to and just sack her without knowing the vital information that he would need for it to be fair?

Gavan Reilly has said Leo was aware of the 2015 email thread last Friday but still defended Fitzgerald to the hilt encouraging his TDs to do the same. Do your job right and hindsight is not an issue. Don't tell lies and hindsight is not an issue. Don't mislead the Dail and hindsight is not an issue.

JohnBoy26

devnull wrote: »

Bertie made a whole career over stroke politics and scandals, yet still some people kept voting for him for some reason, I guess it must have been the handouts and the incentives he gave people who were happy to turn a blind eye to the fact he was about as bad person in politics as they can.

This is not about bertie though and this is a bit more than a scandal. These deflection tactics by fine gael supporters are pointless tbh.

hatrickpatrick

devnull wrote: »

Leo was my previous TD, and I can tell you that he was someone who actually cared about the people in his area and campaigned for them and did his very best for them, I would have much more faith in him than I would have in a lot of people I have met in politics.

Do we even know how much Leo really knew about this when he made his comments?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Personally I'm not accusing him of knowing anything or not knowing anything, what I'm accusing him of is giving non-answers instead of saying "I don't know, but I'll do my best to find out and come back to answer your questions here in the near future, and I will demand of my cabinet that they do the same". That's the issue, at least for me. All three of them - Flanagan, Varadkar, and FitzGerald - chose instead to bluster.

Let's say you're in school and a teacher accuses you of stealing something or of knowing who stole something from another student. Even if you didn't do it, if your first instinct is to start bullsh!tting and evading questions instead of giving straight answers, it shows you at worst as a naturally dishonest personality, and at best as somebody with a guilty enough conscience that you don't want to commit to discovering and subsequently telling the truth.

In such a scenario, I would have more respect for the person who says "Yeah, I did that, I shouldn't have, I'll give it back" than the person who says "Well... Um... Ehhhhh... It's a minute after 3.30 and we're just outside the school gate so you have no authority to ask me these questions here, and furthermore I know your husband stole something 20 years ago in a shoplifting incident so who are YOU to question me?!". The latter individual is a complete and utter snake and an absolutely rotten personality, and that's how FG are coming across - even if it turns out that nobody did anything wrong. In my example, if that student didn't actually steal anything at all, he's still shown himself to be of fundamentally dishonest character by refusing to answer a legitimate question, and that's not something we should tolerate from our politicians as far as I'm concerned.

markodaly

Does this change anything on the ground, no. Ask the average punter on the street about this and they wont have a clue what you are on about.

LuckyLloyd

markodaly wrote: »

Media are loving this me thinks more than anyone else. All of them trying to outdo the next with their twitter feeds.

Is that all you can really muster in comment after days of trenchantly defending the government position?