The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

Hitman3000

devnull wrote:

Yeah FF have nothing to do with this at all, I mean, not like they tabled a motion of anything.

They haven't tabled a motion just their intent.

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

He comes across pretty smug and smart assed, in much of his Dáil exchanges.

That's your view, I have found him completely the opposite when I have met him during constituency issues in Dublin 15, unlike some of the other parties who were more interested in towing the party line than actually sticking up for the people of an area.

Itssoeasy

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Alan Shatter on Ivan Yates tonight at 11pm!!!! :D:D

Oh now that will be fun to watch. The smugness will be off the scale.

Hitman3000

devnull wrote:

Without FF this thread wouldn't exist....

Actually if Fitzgerald was not shown to be so incompetent this thread would not exist.

Nettle Soup

devnull wrote: »

Without FF this thread wouldn't exist....

I believe SF also tabled a motion of no confidence for Wednesday.

devnull

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Actually if Fitzgerald was not shown to be so incompetent this thread would not exist.

And if you want to take it back to extremes if the country wasn't bankrupt in the recession it probably wouldn't exist either.

Fann Linn

devnull wrote: »

Yeah FF have nothing to do with this at all, I mean, not like they tabled a motion of anything. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

So would you prefer if they said nothing and turned the other way?
Nothing to see here, move along.

tomwaterford

devnull wrote: »

Without FF this thread wouldn't exist....

FF are responsible for the gaurds tarnishing someone's reputation with the government's prior knowledge (and a fg appointed commissioner)???



I don't like ff and sickens me prospect of micheal Martin as Taoiseach after he part of cabinet who bankrupted the country.....but I'd love to see your logic that it's ff fault?

charlie14

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

21:08
Latest from Sarah Bardon...

A spokesman for Taoiseach says the Government position on Frances Fitzgerald has not changed.

The Taoiseach would need to have a few words with his own TD`s on that one.
By all reports, if his position hasn`t changed theirs certainly has.

devnull

Fann Linn wrote: »

So would you prefer if they said nothing and turned the other way?
Nothing to see here, move along.

I'm not saying that, I'm simply saying that FF are very much a topic that is relevant to this discussion as they are part of the situation, if they weren't LV and MM wouldn't be meeting every day.

McMurphy

devnull wrote: »

Without FF this thread wouldn't exist....

FG stock through and through.

Blame everyone else.

No accountability.

hatrickpatrick

devnull wrote: »

As a centrist voter who has a disliking for populist parties because it's always self interest over that of the country I'm merely giving my view, since I don't have any association with any political party then honestly what people think is totally up to them at the end of the day.

In no way have FG been perfect but having worked in multi-nationals and a number of companies I certainly think they are more capable than a populist led FF. Realistically there is not a huge amount between FF and FG in some areas but honestly the whole populist agenda of FF under Bertie really put me off and I won't forget that in a hurry.

I couldn't agree more and I will never vote for FF short of a complete and total overhaul which is so substantial that it effectively disbands the party and creates a totally new and different one. But my point is, in this thread, you have repeatedly used the same tactics which have been used by FG politicians in the last week - "what about FF, they're no better". This thread has nothing to do with FF, and attacking FG's current performance is completely and totally irrelevant to the past or indeed current performance of FF. Constantly comparing FG to FF comes across as incredibly defensive - FF suck, most of us in this thread agree upon this and it isn't in dispute, which is why it's not being discussed. FG are currently making an absolute dog's arse of the current scenario, which is why we're discussing it here - but it in no way means that any of us our saying FF are any better. South Park's giant douche vs turd sandwich come irresistibly to mind.

Basically, every time you (or indeed any of FG's politicians interviewed by the media in recent days) make a comparison to another party as a "defence" of FG's current behaviour, it doesn't achieve what it's supposed to achieve. In the minds of most Irish voters, it just gets translated as "we literally have no argument, we know that what we're being asked to defend is indefensible, so instead of just admitting we f*cked up and apologising, we'll keep lashing out at everyone else in the hopes of distracting from the issue". But people, I think, are beyond being willing to be distracted in this manner, so it's not going to work.

Maybe this isn't what you're consciously attempting to do but do you get how it comes across?
"Why did you do X?"
"Well what about them? They did Y, and they've done X in the past!"
"But why did you do X?"
"Are you seriously telling me that they didn't do both X and Y? Come on!"
"But..."
"NO, THE POINT IS THAT THEY SUCK! WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THEM?"

Etc.

Both of the campaigns were ****e though, you have to admit, but hardly the result has worked out for them, Trump honestly is a disaster, I would have easily voted for Clinton, not because she was any good, she was bloody terrible, but I could never vote for Republicans, they are so far to the right and are linked with the kind of organisations that disgust me.

I absolutely 100% agree with this, but again you've missed the point. Clinton could possibly have won if she had been better at communicating - the fact that she lost exemplifies the fact that "the other guy sucks more than I do" is not a winning strategy in self-promotion, and it's not going to work for FG or their supporters either. If you can't think of anything to say in defence of this government's behaviour, you're not going to help your case by throwing in "but FF and SF suck ass" as a deflection. It's been tried, and it doesn't work.

kevthegaff

devnull wrote:

That's your view, I have found him completely the opposite when I have met him during constituency issues in Dublin 15, unlike some of the other parties who were more interested in towing the party line than actually sticking up for the people of an area.

Brother met him when elected taoiseach as he came down into a certain department section, anyway he was very bad at communicating with staff, possibly through a privileged background. Although it was nice to go and meet them. Like Harris, Coveney I find him more talk then substance. FG would be a different animal under Yates or P Hogan imo, more substance

Hitman3000

devnull wrote:

I'm not saying that, I'm simply saying that FF are very much a topic that is relevant to this discussion as they are part of the situation, if they weren't LV and MM wouldn't be meeting every day.

They are only relevant because of the supply and confidence agreement. This mess is all FG's baby.

Water John

Yates and Hogan were the two biggest spoofers in Fg. That's the axis that stopped Peter Barry becoming the great leader FG needed.

kevthegaff

Water John wrote:

Yates and Hogan were the two biggest spoofers in Fg. That's the axis that stopped Peter Barry becoming the great leader FG needed.

Hogan has done a good job in europe

Fann Linn

devnull wrote: »

I'm not saying that, I'm simply saying that FF are very much a topic that is relevant to this discussion as they are part of the situation, if they weren't LV and MM wouldn't be meeting every day.

I hate to defend FF but if Francis stood up and told the truth or Leo had the balls and sacked her, none of this would be happening today.

Far too easy however to blame the shinners and ff rather than the actual person concerned.
For party political reasons of course.

White Clover

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You miss the fact that SF first suggested tabling a motion of no confidence.FF due to standing orders got in first.

FF are easily risen by SF. Only reason FF tabled the motion was to avoid being upstaged by the shinners. Pretty sad really not to mind dangerous. Why do FF always put themselves before the national interest?

devnull

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I couldn't agree more and I will never vote for FF short of a complete and total overhaul which is so substantial that it effectively disbands the party and creates a totally new and different one. But my point is, in this thread, you have repeatedly used the same tactics which have been used by FG politicians in the last week - "what about FF, they're no better". This thread has nothing to do with FF, and attacking FG's current performance is completely and totally irrelevant to the past or indeed current performance of FF. Constantly comparing FG to FF comes across as incredibly defensive - FF suck, most of us in this thread agree upon this and it isn't in dispute, which is why it's not being discussed. FG are currently making an absolute dog's arse of the current scenario, which is why we're discussing it here - but it in no way means that any of us our saying FF are any better. South Park's giant douche vs turd sandwich come irresistibly to mind.

Basically, every time you (or indeed any of FG's politicians interviewed by the media in recent days) make a comparison to another party as a "defence" of FG's current behaviour, it doesn't achieve what it's supposed to achieve. In the minds of most Irish voters, it just gets translated as "we literally have no argument, we know that what we're being asked to defend is indefensible, so instead of just admitting we f*cked up and apologising, we'll keep lashing out at everyone else in the hopes of distracting from the issue". But people, I think, are beyond being willing to be distracted in this manner, so it's not going to work.

I absolutely 100% agree with this, but again you've missed the point. Clinton could possibly have won if she had been better at communicating - the fact that she lost exemplifies the fact that "the other guy sucks more than I do" is not a winning strategy in self-promotion, and it's not going to work for FG or their supporters either. If you can't think of anything to say in defence of this government's behaviour, you're not going to help your case by throwing in "but FF and SF suck ass" as a deflection. It's been tried, and it doesn't work.

I'm not a diehard FG supporter though, I've voted for Labour, FF (long time ago) and FG in the past and I lived in the UK and never voted for the Tories there as I view right wing views abhorrent.

Of course, I'd agree that FG haven't handled this the best way, but it's not bad enough that it would want me to vote for someone else, if there was another true centrist party without a populist agenda maybe that would change my view, but there isn't so I won't.

My point simply is that there's been a tendency from some quarters to equate this to a bigger crime than ever happened on FF watch and I'm simply stating that FF had serious issues yet Cowen and Ahern didn't get the flack that I see some people are happy to give to FG, which I think is double standards.

If people were quick enough to put the boot into FF then maybe they would never have been able to do some of the stupidity that they actually did. For sure FG have messed up here and that has become more apparent over the last weekend, but some people are trying to blow it out of proportion in comparison to previous governments.

Hitman3000

White Clover wrote:

FF are easily risen by SF. Only reason FF tabled the motion was to avoid being upstaged by the shinners. Pretty sad really not to mind dangerous. Why do FF always put themselves before the national interest?

It looks like Fitzgerald is putting herself ahead of the national interest tbh. I suggest you look at the 9o' clock news if it's on the player. She lied, no denying it.

JohnBoy26

kevthegaff wrote: »

Hogan has done a good job in europe

He was a disaster here with the household charge and water fiasco. He would not make a good leader because he has no social skills and comes across as talking down to the electorate with a take your medicine attitude.

tomwaterford

kevthegaff wrote: »

Hogan has done a good job in europe

He was always fcuked when it turned out he wouldn't bother paying the household charge on his holiday home


While moving mountains to enforce it here

devnull

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It looks like Fitzgerald is putting herself ahead of the national interest tbh. I suggest you look at the 9o' clock news if it's on the player. She lied, no denying it.

It's hard to make a good decision on what will happen next since we only know what the media are saying, I'm sure MM and LV have a lot of knowledge and know things that are not in the public domain and only they can really know if there are reasons for the position of FG on this. Since they are meeting now I would expect some news later tonight or early tomorrow..

listermint

devnull wrote: »

I'm not a diehard FG supporter though, I've voted for Labour, FF (long time ago) and FG in the past and I lived in the UK and never voted for the Tories there as I view right wing views abhorrent.

Of course, I'd agree that FG haven't handled this the best way, but it's not bad enough that it would want me to vote for someone else, if there was another true centrist party without a populist agenda maybe that would change my view, but there isn't so I won't.

My point simply is that there's been a tendency from some quarters to equate this to a bigger crime than ever happened on FF watch and I'm simply stating that FF had serious issues yet Cowen and Ahern didn't get the flack that I see some people are happy to give to FG, which I think is double standards.

If people were quick enough to put the boot into FF then maybe they would never have been able to do some of the stupidity that they actually did. For sure FG have messed up here and that has become more apparent over the last weekend, but some people are trying to blow it out of proportion in comparison to previous governments.

I think you'll find people are quick to put the boot into any party now. As they have been caught out in the past.

Given your view point you should welcome this .

Instead you defend it.

I enjoy this new world of voter looking for accountability.

sdanseo

https://twitter.com/FitzgeraldFrncs/status/935264358682292226
https://twitter.com/FitzgeraldFrncs/status/935264271897948160


#GE17 indeed. Govt will collapse around 2.05pm tomorrow.

Sierra Oscar

devnull wrote: »

Without FF this thread wouldn't exist....

That's just not true. Sinn Féin also tabled a motion of no confidence.

The Independents and Labour probably would have too if they were up on Private Members Business next week.

Speaking of Independents, where are the Independent Alliance tonight? Not a squeak from them.

Sierra Oscar

ooter wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FitzgeraldFrncs/status/935264271897948160
https://twitter.com/FitzgeraldFrncs/status/935264358682292226

It looks like she is digging in. Incredible.

If Leo Varadkar wants to go to the country because he lacks the courage to sack his Tánaiste for being involved in a conspiracy, then so be it. The media have clearly turned against Fine Gael this evening. It will end badly for them.

They will be blamed for causing a General Election as everyone knows the Tánaiste has been caught lying time and time again.

JohnBoy26

Looks like she intends to go down with the fine gael ship.

sdanseo

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

If Leo Varadkar wants to go to the country because he lacks the courage to sack his Tánaiste for being involved in a conspiracy, then so be it. The media have clearly turned against Fine Gael this evening. It will end badly for them. They will be blamed for causing a General Election as everyone knows the Tánaiste has been caught lying time and time again.

And so it should.

This conduct by the Tánaiste warrants dismissal.

The reaction (or lack thereof) by Leo warrants an election. (What a waste of what I and many others thought was potential. Coveney will be delerious)

Both positions are untenable now.

nuac

markodaly wrote: »

Does this change anything on the ground, no. Ask the average punter on the street about this and they wont have a clue what you are on about.

Perhaps not when this started, but now?...................

tobsey

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It looks like she is digging in. Incredible.

If Leo Varadkar wants to go to the country because he lacks the courage to sack his Tánaiste for being involved in a conspiracy, then so be it. The media have clearly turned against Fine Gael this evening. It will end badly for them.

They will be blamed for causing a General Election as everyone knows the Tánaiste has been caught lying time and time again.

Whatever else she did or didn’t do, she wasn’t involved in a conspiracy. She had no hand, act or part in it. She was made aware of the intentions of the commissioner and her legal team. She maybe could have done or said something, but she couldn’t have told them to change their tack. Saying she was involved is a lie.

StringerBell

Mind boggling arrogance and self centred behaviour.

Water John

Her being that stupid, I didn't see coming.

drkpower

the last tranche of emails don't actually tell us anything that wasn't known already.

Though politically, it should be all over now. Leo has to recognise that while up until now, FF/SF might have gotten the blame for the election, he will probably get it now unless he sacks Frances.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Actually if Fitzgerald was not shown to be so incompetent this thread would not exist.

So counting threads and pitchforks determines what is right?

I thought we left mob justice behind a couple of centuries ago.

Fann Linn

tobsey wrote: »

Whatever else she did or didn’t do, she wasn’t involved in a conspiracy. She had no hand, act or part in it. She was made aware of the intentions of the commissioner and her legal team. She maybe could have done or said something, but she couldn’t have told them to change their tack. Saying she was involved is a lie.

Its the lies.

tayto lover

kevthegaff wrote: »

Hogan has done a good job in europe

Arrogance personified.
Detest the fceker who threatened to reduce non-payers of the water tax to a trickle.

charlie14

Fann Linn wrote: »

So would you prefer if they said nothing and turned the other way?
Nothing to see here, move along.

The line FG have been attempting to sell from the outset.:D

Hopefully people will be more wary of that in the future

blanch152

Fann Linn wrote: »

Its the lies.

The lies that she was involved in a conspiracy?

Fann Linn

blanch152 wrote: »

The lies that she was involved in a conspiracy?

Who mentioned conspiracy?

sdanseo

Consonata

Those are good odds for 2019

Sierra Oscar

blanch152 wrote: »

The lies that she was involved in a conspiracy?

The lies that she consistently claimed up until recent days that she only became aware of the legal strategy undertaken by Garda HQ to undermine the credibility and integrity of Maurice McCabe in May 2016 when the information became public.

We now know that, not only did she get three email's alerting her to the fact in May 2015, she also received an extensive briefing from her own officials on how to handle media queries on the matter - after liaising with the Garda Press Office.

Fine Gael's election slogan - let's keep the cover-up going.

https://twitter.com/Mickcliff/status/935265942082408449

Her failure to be up front about this does make me believe that she was in fact involved in this from the very onset. She knew exactly what was going on. Why all the lies otherwise? What is your explanation for the attempted coverup that she has conducted over the last couple of weeks?

sdanseo

Consonata wrote: »

Those are good odds for 2019

Only applies to the next election. At this rate the one after it could be 2019.

Fann Linn

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The lies that she consistently claimed up until recent days that she only became aware of the legal strategy undertaken by Garda HQ to undermine the credibility and integrity of Maurice McCabe in May 2016 when the information became public.

We now know that, not only did she get three email's alerting her to the fact in May 2015, she also received an extensive briefing from her own officials on how to handle media queries on it the matter - after liaising with the Garda Press Office.

Fine Gael's election slogan - let's keep the cover-up going.

https://twitter.com/Mickcliff/status/935265942082408449

Yes those lies.

Nettle Soup

tayto lover wrote: »

Arrogance personified.
Detest the fceker who threatened to reduce non-payers of the water tax to a trickle.

Phil Hogan represents all that is bad about Fine Gael.

Nettle Soup

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Fine Gael's election slogan - let's keep the cover-up going.

Classic!

Interesting to hear Paul Williams's opinion tomorrow. He is always pro-Gardaí (except McCabe of course).

charlie14

kevthegaff wrote: »

Hogan has done a good job in europe

He made a right dogs dinner of the whole water charges affair.

Didn`t stop him getting the cushy job in Europe though, but I reckon that was reward for being Kenny`s hatchet man.

Soulsun

If FF back down now MM may step down as leader.

charlie14

White Clover wrote: »

FF are easily risen by SF. Only reason FF tabled the motion was to avoid being upstaged by the shinners. Pretty sad really not to mind dangerous. Why do FF always put themselves before the national interest?

Look over there.

I`m telling you LOOK OVER THERE,

LOOK, LOOK, OVEEER THEEEREE

:rolleyes: