The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

Fann Linn

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

None of this has any bearing on the likelihood of an election as long as she has the support of two key people: Leo Varadkar and, well, herself.

Vote of no confidence tomorrow should sort out that little problem.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Who made this claim?

It has been claimed repeatedly on this thread that she was part of a conspiracy to get McCabe, and if it is true, she should resign.

However, if she has forgotten a handful of the many thousand emails she gets every week and the several hundred media briefings she gets every year, that is a different question with a different answer.

Odhinn

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

None of this has any bearing on the likelihood of an election as long as she has the support of two key people: Leo Varadkar and, well, herself.

Going on RTE, that may end up with all the support she has. The party is not happy with having gone out saying she did nothing wrong when its crystal clear she did a number of things very wrongly indeed.

FrancieBrady

I think the favour has been done for Fitzgerald. And Coveney got the job. He has allowed her to go into the Dail tomorrow feigning innocence and bleating about the injustice.
She will resign and FG and FF will map out their agreed reforms.

If I am wrong, they are all idiots and thundering disgraces.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been claimed repeatedly on this thread that she was part of a conspiracy to get McCabe, and if it is true, she should resign.

However, if she has forgotten a handful of the many thousand emails she gets every week and the several hundred media briefings she gets every year, that is a different question with a different answer.

It has also been claimed she was aware of the conspiracy (2 different accusations) by way of emails.

She denied this.

As Yates pointed out tonight, emails state that the Tainaste "notes" said mail.

She's been snared hook line and sinker.

Water John

Ah Blanch, that's nonsense. Nobody incl her own fellow Ministers believe that any more. She knew and well knew, in July 2015.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been claimed repeatedly on this thread that she was part of a conspiracy to get McCabe, and if it is true, she should resign.

However, if she has forgotten a handful of the many thousand emails she gets every week and the several hundred media briefings she gets every year, that is a different question with a different answer.

How can you forget (a) a strategy sent to you in regard to answering questions on the hostile garda approach (b) questions being raised over the integrity of a man featured in a massively prominent scandal involving her own area as a minister who was generally held to be of good character? Just the general thrust has to stick in the mind.

Tell me how

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been claimed repeatedly on this thread that she was part of a conspiracy to get McCabe, and if it is true, she should resign.

However, if she has forgotten a handful of the many thousand emails she gets every week and the several hundred media briefings she gets every year, that is a different question with a different answer.

Give it up. There's no defending this with it being such a hot topic at the time.

What do a lot of us do in our jobs when sending an important email? It's accompanied by a heads up phone call.

There were so many involved in this you can be sure that phones were hopping as well but of course there is no record of that so we are focusing on the emails.

STB.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its certainly a good one. Leo's handling of it is truly impressive. Even Haughey would be impressed with his masterful playing of his hand here (and Bertram 'must cunning of them all' Ahearn was only an amateur by comparison).
This case of political mastermind will be studied for decades to come and Leo command a reputation among world leaders as the shrewdest of them all once the full game plays out here.
Calling it now : FG majority coalition with just a smidgen of help from the Greens.

Are you joking.

Fitzgerald caught red handed and doesnt care!

FG are defending the indefensible.

FG have shown how willing they will fuck the Irish people over with Brexit around the corner.

They will get slaughtered on the doorsteps for their arrogance.

Fitzgerald caught red handed and doesnt care!

Accountability starts within the party. It doesnt require a tribunal.

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been claimed repeatedly on this thread that she was part of a conspiracy to get McCabe, and if it is true, she should resign.

However, if she has forgotten a handful of the many thousand emails she gets every week and the several hundred media briefings she gets every year, that is a different question with a different answer.

I think she'd remember these ones. Her predecessor, the confidential recepient, the previous secretary general, the previous Garda commissioner all disappeared over the whole "disgusting" episode.

blanch152. That your badge number ?

Water John

Accountability is to the Dail.

Leonard Hofstadter

blanch152 wrote: »

Of course there is a chance that a number of them could go to Leo in advance, but breaking ranks, seriously???!!!!?????

Yeah you'd have to imagine Leo will be put under a LOT of pressure by the PP over the next few hours.

But regardless of what happens, there is absolutely no way any FG TD will break ranks on a no-confidence vote (for starters it would mean they are aiding and abetting an election and there is no way the electorate will fall for the stunt of voting against the Government and declaring no confidence in the Tánaiste yet at the same time saying the party is credible enough to go back into Government - no voter is that stupid).

I'm surprised the various independents backing the Government haven't demanded her head on a plate incidentally - fair enough before the revelations today (where it had just looked like she'd made a silly mistake and was hardly a sacking offence) but if they start to flex their muscles that will surely force Varadkar to have a rethink.

Charmeleon

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been claimed repeatedly on this thread that she was part of a conspiracy to get McCabe, and if it is true, she should resign.

However, if she has forgotten a handful of the many thousand emails she gets every week and the several hundred media briefings she gets every year, that is a different question with a different answer.

She gets thousands of emails every week about infamous scandals and how the whistleblower she publicly supported is about to be royally shafted? Yeah. Suuuuurre.

It’s bloody treachery.

blanch152

Rick Shaw wrote: »

It has also been claimed she was aware of the conspiracy (2 different accusations) by way of emails.

She denied this.

As Yates pointed out tonight, emails state that the Tainaste "notes" said mail.

She's been snared hook line and sinker.

Eh, she noted an email that said she could do nothing, and that is an issue?

Tell me how

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its certainly a good one. Leo's handling of it is truly impressive. Even Haughey would be impressed with his masterful playing of his hand here (and Bertram 'must cunning of them all' Ahearn was only an amateur by comparison).
This case of political mastermind will be studied for decades to come and Leo command a reputation among world leaders as the shrewdest of them all once the full game plays out here.
Calling it now : FG majority coalition with just a smidgen of help from the Greens.

FFS. I can nearly smell this through the computer.

Charmeleon

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh, she noted an email that said she could do nothing, and that is an issue?

The email didn’t say she couldn’t do anything, others were telling her in their opinion she had no role. That is entirely different. She’s the minister, she can’t be told by minions what she should or should not do on something like this.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh, she noted an email that said she could do nothing, and that is an issue?

Once again..... notes an email she claimed she never knew about.

charlie14

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the favour has been done for Fitzgerald. And Coveney got the job. He has allowed her to go into the Dail tomorrow feigning innocence and bleating about the injustice.
She will resign and FG and FF will map out their agreed reforms.

If I am wrong, they are all idiots and thundering disgraces.

Have a bit of compassion.

Reminding FG of Paddy Donegan at this stage with the manure heap Varadkar has walked them into is cruel and inhuman punishment.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

It has been claimed repeatedly on this thread that she was part of a conspiracy to get McCabe, and if it is true, she should resign.

By one person. The fact that Fitzgerald has lied and misled the Dail is enough to force her resignation.

Water John

Problem is, Flanagan allowed Leo to do the same.
Very few, if any have claimed she had an active role in the conspiracy. She knew of it, that's her problem.

tomwaterford

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Once again..... notes an email she claimed she never knew about.

FG have a parliamentary party meeting in the morning

She's gone,or else they'll face revolt form their own ministers....a needlessly chaotic situation they've found themselves in



On a side note Simon Coveney is about the worst lier I've ever seen,he deosnt even believe what he came out this evening.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

However, if she has forgotten a handful of the many thousand emails she gets every week and the several hundred media briefings she gets every year, that is a different question with a different answer.

Not credible she forgot anything to do with the McCabe saga considering the effect the whole saga had on her predecessor and several other senior people. It's actually quote laughable you are still clinging to that defence tbh.

STB.

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh, she noted an email that said she could do nothing, and that is an issue?

Its an issue when you constantly say the opposite to what they confirm in the Dail.

Lets put it in plain english.

Up until last week the Tánaiste had insisted she did not become aware of the strategy, which sought to undermine Sgt McCabe’s motivation and credibility, until it was made public in May 2016.

The emails are from 2015.

Complicit, incompetent. Who cares at this stage.

She has made fools of her FG colleagues who have been defending her.

brendanwalsh

Matt will be in for a sleepless night no doubt with Leo crying down the Skype session

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Eh, she noted an email that said she could do nothing, and that is an issue?

Well her lying is and her misleading the Dail are serious issues.

tomwaterford

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Not credible she forgot anything to do with the McCabe saga considering the effect the whole saga had on her predecessor and several other senior people. It's actually quote laughable you are still clinging to that defence tbh.

Alan Kelly himself a ex minister pretty much dismissed this suggestion you could forget 3 possibly more emails on the one subject


No mind 3 emails on what is probably the biggest political issue to face her in her career

Water John

The DOJ withholding docs from the Tribunal is the second issue. That will have far reaching consequences. Very unusual for civil servants, not to comply with legal requirements.

Sierra Oscar

tomwaterford wrote: »

Alan Kelly himself a ex minister pretty much dismissed this suggestion you could forget 3 possibly more emails on the one subject


No mind 3 emails on what is probably the biggest political issue to face her in her career

And let's not forget that Fitzgerald was briefed by a senior official on how to answer media enquiries on the topic in May 2015 after having been in contact with the Garda Commissioner through the Garda Press Office.

And she claims she did not become aware of any of this until it was revealed in the media in May 2016. C'mon like. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Here are the files. Go to page 8 and read the next few pages.

STB.

tomwaterford wrote: »

Alan Kelly himself a ex minister pretty much dismissed this suggestion you could forget 3 possibly more emails on the one subject


No mind 3 emails on what is probably the biggest political issue to face her in her career

It could be said that you'd have to be pretty naive to believe the rest of the cabinet werent briefed too.

Tell me how

tomwaterford wrote: »

Alan Kelly himself a ex minister pretty much dismissed this suggestion you could forget 3 possibly more emails on the one subject

No mind 3 emails on what is probably the biggest political issue to face her in her career

To be fair, Alan Kelly is also a politician and is in the position now of being able to appear on the side of the public.

Also, he still has a big axe to grind over Irish Water.

McMurphy

STB. wrote: »

It could be said that you'd have to be pretty naive to believe the rest of the cabinet werent briefed too.

It was purely coincidental that they were all singing from the same hymn sheet.

Water John

The Cabinet would not have been briefed. That's overreach. The only other you would consider that the Minister would have talked to, would be Enda Kenny.
Personally, doubt it happened.
Other Ministers simply reiterated what she told them. That's why they are angry. She misled her colleagues also.

FrancieBrady

Water John wrote: »

The DOJ withholding docs from the Tribunal is the second issue. That will have far reaching consequences. Very unusual for civil servants, not to comply with legal requirements.

Yes. It is critically important to investigate who ordered that.
The 300,000 fine would make a serious deterent for anybody thinking of doing it again.

tomwaterford

STB. wrote: »

It could be said that you'd have to be pretty naive to believe the rest of the cabinet werent briefed too.

She didn't even tell the Taoiseach and let him lie to the dail as late as last week


If we're to believe the fg line here??


You do pose a serious question about how credible that is though

Water John

It's a serious criminal matter. The same as lying to a Tribunal, as you are setting out to mislead it.

tomwaterford

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes. It is critically important to investigate who ordered that.
The 300,000 fine would make a serious deterent for anybody thinking of doing it again.

There is also the question of the disappearing and reappearing ohiggin tribunal transcripts


Which only reappeared after pressure been applied.....rotten to the fcuking core and puts Flanagan in the line to at a minimum have serious questions to answer

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

By one person. The fact that Fitzgerald has lied and misled the Dail is enough to force her resignation.

It wasn't just one person, there were a few.

For the rest, forgetting a handful of emails from two years ago, out of thousands and thousands received, and which emails advised no action could be taken, is hardly a crime worth getting out the pitchforks for. But they do.

charlie14

Water John wrote: »

Problem is, Flanagan allowed Leo to do the same.
Very few, if any have claimed she had an active role in the conspiracy. She knew of it, that's her problem.

Being mislead by his own cabinet minister does not seem to be a problem for him.

Very strange behaviour from a Taoiseach.
Especially with Flanagan sitting beside him while he was giving this misleading information roaring like a bull at Alan Kelly who had said nothing,

Although that could just be a side effect of Flanagan being around Enda Kenny`s imaginary conversation for so long.

STB.

Water John wrote: »

The Cabinet would not have been briefed.

That's overreach.

The only other you would consider that the Minister would have talked to, would be Enda Kenny. Personally, doubt it happened.
.

You'd think so wouldnt you. Wasnt there something about throwing people under buses ? "Mea Culpa"

Tell me how

Water John wrote: »

It's a serious criminal matter. The same as lying to a Tribunal, as you are setting out to mislead it.

There could be Phd dissertations submitted on the pointlessness of tribunals in Irish politics 2000 - 2020.

As for the cost! That poor lad on Clare Byrne tonight with his sick daughter who's medication is about to be stopped due to lack of funding. How difficult it must be to watch money being literally poured down the drain (don't get me started on IW) while a loved one cannot access care.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

It wasn't just one person, there were a few.

For the rest, forgetting a handful of emails from two years ago, out of thousands and thousands received, and which emails advised no action could be taken, is hardly a crime worth getting out the pitchforks for. But they do.

The buck stops with the minister.

It's really an open and shut case.

Loafing Oaf

Water John wrote: »

Coveney will toe the party line until Frances resigns, which is tomorrow. She left that window open in the tweets. She say she feels wronged but will resign.

And what will you say/do if she doesn't?

JohnBoy26

blanch152 wrote: »

It wasn't just one person, there were a few.

For the rest, forgetting a handful of emails from two years ago, out of thousands and thousands received, and which emails advised no action could be taken, is hardly a crime worth getting out the pitchforks for. But they do.

Nobody is buying that nonsense.

Tell me how

blanch152 wrote: »

It wasn't just one person, there were a few.

For the rest, forgetting a handful of emails from two years ago, out of thousands and thousands received, and which emails advised no action could be taken, is hardly a crime worth getting out the pitchforks for. But they do.

Forget about everyone on this thread and trying to win that battle. Look at what is happening here and forget any party allegiance you have. It is self-preserving behaviour of the highest order. The sad thing is, it's by all of them.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

It wasn't just one person, there were a few.

So what. It still doesn't change the fact that Fitzgerald has lied and misled the Dail. Enough in my opinion to call for her resignation.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

For the rest, forgetting a handful of emails from two years ago, out of thousands and thousands received, and which emails advised no action could be taken, is hardly a crime worth getting out the pitchforks for. But they do.

You still clinging to that nonsense that she forgot?

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

Forgetting emails relating to McCabe that were also withheld from this Disclosure Tribunal.

Here`s your coat, and mind that door on the way out.
It`s been slapping the arse of that kind of rubbish all night

Come on, compared to the people who were fantasizing about FG TDs and Ministers breaking ranks, what I have had to say is perfectly normal.

hatrickpatrick

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So what. It still doesn't change the fact that Fitzgerald has lied and misled the Dail. Enough in my opinion to call for her resignation.

This is the only relevant factor now as far as I'm concerned. The specifics of what happened and who knew what will undoubtedly come out in the coming weeks or indeed at the tribunal, as Simin Coveney was saying on Claire Byrne earlier. But it doesn't matter. The minister lied to the Oireachtas, and that must be a sackable offence if the system of democracy upon which this state is based, is to have any credibility.

charlie14

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So what. It still doesn't change the fact that Fitzgerald has lied and misled the Dail. Enough in my opinion to call for her resignation.

It`s not simply a resignation issue.
It`s a sacking issue that Varadkar has serious questions to answer for in his role as Taoiseach if he doesn`t sack her imo.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Come on, compared to the people who were fantasizing about FG TDs and Ministers breaking ranks, what I have had to say is perfectly normal.

It's not, it's head in the sand nonsense. I do however admire your tenacity in attempting to defend the indefensible. On a serious note if your own credibility as a poster on this site is important to you I'd stop with the nonsense that she forgot. Any other subject possibly, but McCabe?
Not credible.

devnull

The bookies seem to think the next government will either be a FF minority or a SF/FF coalition now.