The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Come on, compared to the people who were fantasizing about FG TDs and Ministers breaking ranks, what I have had to say is perfectly normal.

So all the major media outlets political correspondents are now fantasists.

Give it up man. Nobody is buying that type of rubbish after today.

mickdw

I cant stand the man but I think Alan Kelly made a valid point this evening re tribunals and how info is not being made available to them. This clearly shows the uselessness of these tribunals. They are a joke, generally toothless and absolute money pits.
FG are still calling for Fitzgerald to stay in office and allow the tribunal to run its course. The point made this evening is that todays emails as revealed would likely never have seen the light of day had a tribunal simply been running its course considering the high level state interference.
What good the tribunal when its findings are based on incomplete and hidden information.

hatrickpatrick

mickdw wrote: »

I cant stand the man but I think Alan Kelly made a valid point this evening re tribunals and how info is not being made available to them. This clearly shows the uselessness of these tribunals. They are a joke, generally toothless and absolute money pits.
FG are still calling for Fitzgerald to stay in office and allow the tribunal to run its course. The point made this evening is that todays emails as revealed would likely never have seen the light of day had a tribunal simply been running its course considering the high level state interference.
What good the tribunal when its findings are based on incomplete and hidden information.

The withholding of these emails from the Oireachtas, never mind the tribunals, should have been and should be a serious criminal offence, regardless of whether they were about the fundamentals of our justice system or the particular brand of energy drink offered in the Dàil bar. The ability of the Oireachtas to perform its fundamental function in holding the executive accountable has been totally undermined over the last week, and I'm sorry but unless we're willing to compromise our whole system of government, that must be regarded as an offence against the state.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Now that made me laugh. I have never heard of a whip not being imposed for a confidence vote. If you believe that there is a chance of a single FG TD breaking ranks, no matter what they think, you are living in a strange place.

Of course there is a chance that a number of them could go to Leo in advance, but breaking ranks, seriously???!!!!?????

Didn`t see that until now.

You jump on that a bit too early there I`m afraid.
Had you read my next post you would have seen it was meant as a comic aside.

Something that obviously went way over your head, but after today`s revelations I can see why you would not see much to laugh about.

Sexual Chocolate

A lot of unhappy people on social media tonight comparing the differences in FG leadership between Enda and Leo. I'm far from a FG fan but one thing is for sure that the events over the last few days would have been nipped in the bud if Enda was still at the helm.

The only conclusion that I can come to is that Leo is either stubbron and stupid or she has something on him herself which many also believe to be a possibility. The latter being far fetched in all fairness but anything of such is possible in politics.

Either way if an election doesn't take place this side of christmas its nearly guaranteed within the first 3 months of 2018.

And at least the Brits last snap general election was for the sake of Brexit which in farness didn't go the Tories way but the holy mortifying shame of us potentially having one over a few emails to smear a Garda whistleblower is embarrassing to say the least with boarder negotiations currently taking place.

Fann Linn

devnull wrote: »

The bookies seem to think the next government will either be a FF minority or a SF/FF coalition now.

Brought about by FG ineptitude.

Ludo

Water John wrote: »

So Coveney wants to wait for the Tribunal and justice there. The one from which key docs were withheld.

It all sounded a perfectly reasonable request from Coveney and I would agree with it..UNTIL FOT pointed out the bold piece above. FGs argument loses all credibility due to this unfortunately.

FrancieBrady

Ludo wrote: »

It all sounded a perfectly reasonable request from Coveney and I would agree with it..UNTIL FOT pointed out the bold piece above. FGs argument loses all credibility due to this unfortunately.

ANd plus the fact that the tribunal will not hod anyone 'politically' accountable. That is as O'Callaghan said, the job of the Dail.
Coveney and Varadkar are attempting to kick that can down the road to save their skins it seems.

Call me Al

I can't see how FG are standing by her at this stage. The longer Varadkar procrastinates over this the more he will pay the price at the polls. And at this stage it will be him who is blamed for the election.. not FF.

Unless of course he wants a snap election.

Fann Linn

Independent Alliance throwing their hand into the mix now. Meeting with Leo prior to Cabinet meeting.

Soulsun

Fann Linn wrote: »

Independent Alliance throwing their hand into the mix now. Meeting with Leo prior to Cabinet meeting.

Could you see them pulling the plug?

snowflaker

The Govt should fall.

The leaders should have an agreed stance for the EU summit

Fann Linn

Buttimer doing a Coveney on Morning Ireland now.
'Nothing to see here'.

Beechwoodspark

Buttimer is bloody useless. I don't know if he's trying to distract from the facts or if he is unaware of them

FrancieBrady

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Buttimer is bloody useless. I don't know if he's trying to distract from the facts or if he is unaware of them

Unbelievable how they are all failing to see what everyone else can see here.

Hitman3000

FrancieBrady wrote:

Unbelievable how they are all failing to see what everyone else can see here.

It's a script and no deviation can be allowed lest people think they are making it up as they go along......

Leonard Hofstadter

I'd say she's done, FG TDs are reportedly putting her pressure - and rightly so. If they don't I'd imagine the independent alliance most certainly will do when they meet the Taoiseach later. From a FG point of view it's best to stand down and learn lessons from it. It was credible to defend her before yesterday and FG should not beckon to every demand FF makes but a line was crossed yesterday. What we knew at the time is not what we know now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/frances-fitzgerald-under-intense-pressure-from-within-fine-gael-to-resign-1.3307600?mode=amp

Beechwoodspark

So presumably Shane Ross and co are going to demand Fran Fitz is sacked this morning in the pre cabinet meeting. (Saving their skin is their main concern)

So Leo either does what a lot of his own TDs, plus the independent alliance, plus FF and SF and Labour want -swallow his pride, back down, and sack her,

OR he stands firmly beside her and then brings down the govt and we have an election, even though he knows how critical the Brexit talks are among other things.

Hashtag Leo for national clown?

Leonard Hofstadter

Yeah they'll definitely be taking the moral high ground, unless Leo actually wants an election (something nobody else in FG wants) she is done. This is completely shambolic now when we should be focusing on Brexit and maximising our negotiating leverage. We(the country) are getting a lot of coverage in the British press about the issue not to mention other news sites and it's embarrassing from a national point of view.

It seems like an odd thing to say but if Kenny was still Taoiseach we wouldn't be having this conversation and he'd have gotten rid of her for political and personal expediency (increasing his chances of surviving as FG leader) as much as anything else.

FreudianSlippers

I think Fitzgerald will resign this morning, but I think it shows Varadkar as a very weak leader.

Chips Lovell

Hi folks,
I know everyone is eager to talk about this one, but this is a gentle reminder to read the charter:

Topics should not be verbatim quotes from some article without comment from the thread starter. Add a comment before or after the post, offering your opinion and/or analysis on the subject.

Please remember that we are not a blog, a news feed nor an announcement forum - if you are not willing to discuss what you post, then please don't post it.

Repeated one liner, low quality style posts will result in a ban. Threads (and posts) that are not based on serious and legitimate Political discussion will be deleted without warning.

Long story short, this isn't the place for memes, gifs, or link dumping. Please don't just copy/paste the latest thing you read on Twitter.

mattser

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Buttimer is bloody useless. I don't know if he's trying to distract from the facts or if he is unaware of them

And the great Dobbo thanking him as SF, and then FF, before realising that he's FG !!!

FrancieBrady

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think Fitzgerald will resign this morning, but I think it shows Varadkar as a very weak leader.

If that is what happens I have to say I am very disappointed in Varadkar.
I genuinely thought he was made of more formidable stuff than what we have seen and I can't help thinking there may be an ace in the hole or trump card to be played yet.

FreudianSlippers

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If that is what happens I have to say I am very disappointed in Varadkar.
I genuinely thought he was made of more formidable stuff than what we have seen and I can't help thinking there may be an ace in the hole or trump card to be played yet.

I don't think there is anything that could come out now that would undo the damage caused over the last 4-5 days.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If that is what happens I have to say I am very disappointed in Varadkar.
I genuinely thought he was made of more formidable stuff than what we have seen and I can't help thinking there may be an ace in the hole or trump card to be played yet.

So you're saying that if we go to an election, you'll be praising Leo for his leadership? :pac:

If nothing else, this whole farce has been entertaining, to hear so many people so certain about what was/is going to happen, and then be proven wrong (myself included it has to be said). Initially Leo was going to the Aras on Friday afternoon. Then Frances would be gone by the end of the weekend.
Then according to Ivan Yates, she would definitely step down last night (though Yates is right about 10% of the time anyway).

It's anyone's game at this stage. I suspect we'll probably know the state of play by the afternoon, and won't get as far as any confidence vote.

Relevant funny for any fans of It's Always Sunny...
https://i.redd.it/du9nv0ktawzz.png

Edward M

I can't see FF not going ahead with their motion now.
All I can see is, resignation, sacking or election.
If there is some agreement and she survives this, then accountability for ministers is gone out the window.
I know, what's new in that you'd say, but all party's promised us much on new politics.
I honestly don't know what voting options a sane person would have next time around if this is fudged together without action on her or by her, come the next election.

ednwireland

is the taoiseach such a poor political operator that hes managed to back himself into a corner where the only ways out seem to be damaging to him and his party.

never had much time for him as a minister as he seemed much more content to comment of everyone elses briefs rather than put some hard work into his own but this situations seems to be entirely of his own making at this point.

Idbatterim

Tell me how wrote: »

There could be Phd dissertations submitted on the pointlessness of tribunals in Irish politics 2000 - 2020.

As for the cost! That poor lad on Clare Byrne tonight with his sick daughter who's medication is about to be stopped due to lack of funding. How difficult it must be to watch money being literally poured down the drain (don't get me started on IW) while a loved one cannot access care.

Money down the drain? Tens of millions if not more being paid out for the Christmas bonus tomorrow! Start there if we are talking about waste. We have major funding shortfalls in some areas and money like this is pissed up against a wall or totally squandered for the most part ...

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

So you're saying that if we go to an election, you'll be praising Leo for his leadership? :pac:

Well no. Because i think an election now is kinda tragic. Especially if it's a bitter campaign.

I cannot understand how Varadkar didn't fact check from the get go here. Or call Fitzgerald in and ask her straight up, if there was anymore.

I was happy with his Brexit performance and I think the whole country was, he stood to be able to romp home (maybe even with a majority) if that worked out successfully for Ireland.

All in tatters now. He could be sitting in opposition now or on the wrong side of a supply and confidence deal.

KaneToad

What is the big deal with the strategy being adopted by the Guards to go after M.McCabe?

Surely it is their prerogative to 'attack' in such a way. They were trying to show that he was flawed and his motives were not honest. Is it not reasonable for them to take any approach to defend their case?

It would have been up to M.McCabe's legal team to show up the Guarda sides argument for what it is, a clusterfuk of errors and sitting on hands. Is the Commission not the best place for the truth to come out in all it's ugly glory? So what if the Guards adopted their adversarial attitude, the facts will speak for themselves.

On a tangent, if there is a serious assault or sexual assault trial in the courts and the defendant is not pleading guilty - it is perfectly reasonable for his defence team to bring the bona fides of the accuser into question. We may abhor the notion that the victim is 'on trial' but that is how the system works. The truth will out.

Won't be sorry to see an election but I would have been annoyed if Fitzgerald intervened in the process, against the advice of the AG, to set the strategy of the Guards 'attack'.

Also, the fact that these new emails never made it to the Commission would seem to be a much more insidious turn in the whole torrid affair.

And to think that all this started because one guard was trying to do his job and another guard took umbrage and tried to sabotage his career/life.

Edward M

ednwireland wrote: »

is the taoiseach such a poor political operator that hes managed to back himself into a corner where the only ways out seem to be damaging to him and his party.

never had much time for him as a minister as he seemed much more content to comment of everyone elses briefs rather than put some hard work into his own but this situations seems to be entirely of his own making at this point.

It happened in the last govt, look at labour, look even at FG, the water issue could have been solved within that govt if they had been willing to back down, they did it to fudge this shaky outfit we have now in the end anyway.
ARROGANCE.

blanch152

seamus wrote: »

So you're saying that if we go to an election, you'll be praising Leo for his leadership? :pac:

If nothing else, this whole farce has been entertaining, to hear so many people so certain about what was/is going to happen, and then be proven wrong (myself included it has to be said). Initially Leo was going to the Aras on Friday afternoon. Then Frances would be gone by the end of the weekend.
Then according to Ivan Yates, she would definitely step down last night (though Yates is right about 10% of the time anyway).

It's anyone's game at this stage. I suspect we'll probably know the state of play by the afternoon, and won't get as far as any confidence vote.

Relevant funny for any fans of It's Always Sunny...
https://i.redd.it/du9nv0ktawzz.png

You are forgetting those who had predicted with certainty she would have resigned last Thursday morning! Some of them are still making absolute predictions.

One thing is clear, you can't run a government this way and so-called "new politics" hasn't delivered. This government is one of the worst we have had, but the blame for that is shared right across the Dail.

We are seeing populist hyperbole being spouted by politicians on all sides with hardly a single piece of important legislation having been passed. The latest laughable comment came from Mary Lou - ""an absolute an utter dereliction of duty". Whatever else forgetting a few emails and not acting against advice was, it certainly wasn't that (is RTE making fun of Mary Lou by dropping the "d" from the "and" or was it a genuine typo?).

We have a Dail that is only interested in soundbite advisory meaningless motions and populist show trial committee hearings while failing to pass anything of meaning.

hatrickpatrick

Whatever happens, I dread the prospect of somebody getting a majority or managing to form a coalition post-election Opinion polls seem to point to another inconclusive result AKA minority government if there is indeed an election in the coming weeks, but as far as I'm concerned we've enjoyed the merits of an empowered Dail for far too brief a moment.

Edward M

blanch152 wrote: »

You are forgetting those who had predicted with certainty she would have resigned last Thursday morning! Some of them are still making absolute predictions.

One thing is clear, you can't run a government this way and so-called "new politics" hasn't delivered. This government is one of the worst we have had, but the blame for that is shared right across the Dail.

We are seeing populist hyperbole being spouted by politicians on all sides with hardly a single piece of important legislation having been passed. The latest laughable comment came from Mary Lou - ""an absolute an utter dereliction of duty". Whatever else forgetting a few emails and not acting against advice was, it certainly wasn't that (is RTE making fun of Mary Lou by dropping the "d" from the "and" or was it a genuine typo?).

We have a Dail that is only interested in soundbite advisory meaningless motions and populist show trial committee hearings while failing to pass anything of meaning.

So an election is probably the best outcome.
I hope it happens personally, I hope no matter how it goes we see something better and stronger than this crew.
If FF and SF can cobble together a majority govt, at least it will be strong enough to not have to go begging on every little piece of legislation.
Not saying just them two, but a majority govt has to be stronger than what we have now.

Edward M

KaneToad wrote: »

On a tangent, if there is a serious assault or sexual assault trial in the courts and the defendant is not pleading guilty - it is perfectly reasonable for his defence team to bring the bona fides of the accuser into question. We may abhor the notion that the victim is 'on trial' but that is how the system works. The truth will out.

That's a good post on the whole, but I'm just replying to this part.
We've had days of this current farce, a tribunal in place on the McCabe issue, the truth and a whole series of emails and documents have come to light, not because of the fact there is a tribunal, but because somebody decided to "whistleblow" on an email that supposedly was never seen by the then minister for justice, Fitzgerald.
Since then through political shenanigans a series of other emails and documentation has come to light and are to be furnished to the enquiry that might otherwise have never been seen.
The truth will out, lol.

tobsey

Sexual Chocolate wrote: »

A lot of unhappy people on social media tonight comparing the differences in FG leadership between Enda and Leo. I'm far from a FG fan but one thing is for sure that the events over the last few days would have been nipped in the bud if Enda was still at the helm.

The only conclusion that I can come to is that Leo is either stubbron and stupid or she has something on him herself which many also believe to be a possibility. The latter being far fetched in all fairness but anything of such is possible in politics.

Either way if an election doesn't take place this side of christmas its nearly guaranteed within the first 3 months of 2018.

And at least the Brits last snap general election was for the sake of Brexit which in farness didn't go the Tories way but the holy mortifying shame of us potentially having one over a few emails to smear a Garda whistleblower is embarrassing to say the least with boarder negotiations currently taking place.

I can't believe that is the case. There is no way Fitzgerald is going to bring down Varadkar or FG out of spite.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Whatever happens, I dread the prospect of somebody getting a majority or managing to form a coalition post-election Opinion polls seem to point to another inconclusive result AKA minority government if there is indeed an election in the coming weeks, but as far as I'm concerned we've enjoyed the merits of an empowered Dail for far too brief a moment.

I really don't think that's what it has been. It's been largely a lame duck with very little being achieved. We could do with a period of stability and make some progress without everything being delayed in order to allow everyone score points.

FrancieBrady

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Whatever happens, I dread the prospect of somebody getting a majority or managing to form a coalition post-election Opinion polls seem to point to another inconclusive result AKA minority government if there is indeed an election in the coming weeks, but as far as I'm concerned we've enjoyed the merits of an empowered Dail for far too brief a moment.

Neither FF nor FG can be trusted with a majority IMO.

This system works well bar the slow pace of legislating.
As we have seen, it is impossible for them (FF FG) to get away with the old ways any longer.
Taking them a while to learn that though, I really thought Leo was the begining of something new.

flaneur

Even if he is the beginning of something new, you have to remember that the party isn't something new and will have all the legacies of stroke politics, as does FF.

Politics is politics and there's always an element of balancing keeping various factions on side in parties to avoid being ousted.

Tell me how

KaneToad wrote:

What is the big deal with the strategy being adopted by the Guards to go after M.McCabe?

Surely it is their prerogative to 'attack' in such a way. They were trying to show that he was flawed and his motives were not honest. Is it not reasonable for them to take any approach to defend their case?

Absolutely not. He himself was/is a Gardai. Why should some arm of the body or state decide to support the wider group to the cost of one?

They are required and expected to be entirely impartial in all cases where they themselves are under suspicion but of course human nature gets in the way of that.

FreudianSlippers

Varadkar has cancelled his FG party meeting this morning and they're on their way straight to cabinet meeting, but reports are that Varadkar isn't going to fire Fitzgerald and she has no intention of resigning.


:popcorn:

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Neither FF nor FG can be trusted with a majority IMO.

This system works well bar the slow pace of legislating.
As we have seen, it is impossible for them (FF FG) to get away with the old ways any longer.
Taking them a while to learn that though, I really thought Leo was the begining of something new.

The whole purpose of a parliament is to legislate. When you say the system works well bar the slow pace of legislating, it is like saying the car works well apart from not being able to travel at more than 10 mph.

Sure the sound system is great (Mary Lou gets to sound off) and windshield wipers work fine (Shane Ross looks Ministerial) and it is easy to get into reverse (Micheal Martin is easily put in in his place) and the whole car looks classy (Leo is fooling the public with show rather than substance) but it is just a pity we can't go faster than 10 mph (we can't pass any piece of legislation).

This has certainly been the worst Dail in living memory in terms of legislation. That blame is shared on all sides. It has detracted enormously from what could have been a good government.

blanch152

Edward M wrote: »

So an election is probably the best outcome.
I hope it happens personally, I hope no matter how it goes we see something better and stronger than this crew.
If FF and SF can cobble together a majority govt, at least it will be strong enough to not have to go begging on every little piece of legislation.
Not saying just them two, but a majority govt has to be stronger than what we have now.

Nothing has been done by the current Dail so I won't be sad to see the back of it.

At the moment it looks like an election, but all could change by this evening, and a number of outcomes are still possible. I did suggest at one stage that Fitzgerald could stand down as Tanaiste but remain as Minister. That may still happen.

tomwaterford

KaneToad wrote: »

What is the big deal with the strategy being adopted by the Guards to go after M.McCabe?

Surely it is their prerogative to 'attack' in such a way. They were trying to show that he was flawed and his motives were not honest. Is it not reasonable for them to take any approach to defend their case?.

It's the ultimate of deflection from.their own mistakes tbh


And the accusations they were trying to smear him with were after being fully investigated


All the while the government offer full protection to whistle-blowers while knowingly let this go ahead.....lies lies and more lies

KaneToad

Tell me how wrote: »

Absolutely not. He himself was/is a Gardai. Why should some arm of the body or state decide to support the wider group to the cost of one?.

Because they (wrongly, in my opinion) believed that the one was wrong and the wider group was right.

In their defence, the O'Higgins report did state that McCabe was "a dedicated and committed" member but was "prone to exaggeration". Some of his original complaints were upheld but others were proven to be "overstated", "exaggerated", "unfounded" and ultimately "withdrawn".

Armed with this information from O'Higgins, whether we might agree with it or otherwise, is it not reasonable for the Guards to act the way they did?

I think the baying for blood is just a game for the opposition and the salivating press. Alan Shatter was axed from Justice in not dissimilar fashion. He has subsequently been vindicated by the highest court in the land. Was it fair that his career was ended abruptly due to a frenzy ? ( I can't say that I miss him at all but that's not the point.)

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The whole purpose of a parliament is to legislate. When you say the system works well bar the slow pace of legislating, it is like saying the car works well apart from not being able to travel at more than 10 mph.

Sure the sound system is great (Mary Lou gets to sound off) and windshield wipers work fine (Shane Ross looks Ministerial) and it is easy to get into reverse (Micheal Martin is easily put in in his place) and the whole car looks classy (Leo is fooling the public with show rather than substance) but it is just a pity we can't go faster than 10 mph (we can't pass any piece of legislation).

This has certainly been the worst Dail in living memory in terms of legislation. That blame is shared on all sides. It has detracted enormously from what could have been a good government.

IMO the blame lies with the two parties who have shared power since the foundation of the state.
Bar ripping the whole thing up, and disbanding them, this is the only way to effectively change the way business is done.

And it is changing. Thanks to opposition parties and independents not afraid to call people to account.
The amount of posters on here who went on the attack when this woman and her actions (or lack of action) was called to account is diminishing too, thankfully.

I can endure a few cycles of slow legislating if the problems get fixed and we finally get a parliament with some integrity and with separation of powers.

KaneToad

tomwaterford wrote: »

It's the ultimate of deflection from.their own mistakes tbh


And the accusations they were trying to smear him with were after being fully investigated


All the while the government offer full protection to whistle-blowers while knowingly let this go ahead.....lies lies and more lies

Deflection of who's mistakes?

As for the smear accusations - they were totally groundless and would have been shown to be so by the Commission (and were!). The process worked.

Beechwoodspark

Hugh O'Connell is saying the independent alliance are not backing F Fitz.

You would have to think she's gone at this stage.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

IMO the blame lies with the two parties who have shared power since the foundation of the state.
Bar ripping the whole thing up, and disbanding them, this is the only way to effectively change the way business is done.

And it is changing. Thanks to opposition parties and independents not afraid to call people to account.
The amount of posters on here who went on the attack when this woman and her actions (or lack of action) was called to account is diminishing too, thankfully.

I can endure a few cycles of slow legislating if the problems get fixed and we finally get a parliament with some integrity and with separation of powers.

There is a complete contradiction in your post. You are looking for a separation of powers, yet you are criticising Frances Fitzgerald for respecting the separation of powers and not interfering with the legal strategy of the Gardai by directing them.

People can't have it both ways. Either we want the Minister for Justice to be able to interfere with Garda operations or we don't.

Quite clearly, a Minister has a very important role in the strategic direction of the Gardai, major operational decisions, etc. but getting involved in the minutiae of deciding the appropriate legal strategy of various Garda parties before different Tribunals is not something for the Minister.

Obviously, initiating major reform based on Tribunal findings and ensuring accountability are part of the remit, but the Gardai and the Garda Commissioner have their rights too and are entitled to due process.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There is a complete contradiction in your post. You are looking for a separation of powers, yet you are criticising Frances Fitzgerald for respecting the separation of powers and not interfering with the legal strategy of the Gardai by directing them.

People can't have it both ways. Either we want the Minister for Justice to be able to interfere with Garda operations or we don't.

Quite clearly, a Minister has a very important role in the strategic direction of the Gardai, major operational decisions, etc. but getting involved in the minutiae of deciding the appropriate legal strategy of various Garda parties before different Tribunals is not something for the Minister.

Obviously, initiating major reform based on Tribunal findings and ensuring accountability are part of the remit, but the Gardai and the Garda Commissioner have their rights too and are entitled to due process.

No, the problem I have with Frances is that she lied, repeatedly. And she clearly misled others in an attempt to cover up what she knew. That is more than enough to call her to account.

I also don't believe that her hands were tied legally on this as do an awful lot of more expert commentators. But that one is still playing out.

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

IMO the blame lies with the two parties who have shared power since the foundation of the state.
Bar ripping the whole thing up, and disbanding them, this is the only way to effectively change the way business is done.

And it is changing. Thanks to opposition parties and independents not afraid to call people to account.
The amount of posters on here who went on the attack when this woman and her actions (or lack of action) was called to account is diminishing too, thankfully.

I can endure a few cycles of slow legislating if the problems get fixed and we finally get a parliament with some integrity and with separation of powers.

Only for the current make up of the Dail, this would have been papered over,
declared a "nothing to see here incident "
voted on,
vote passed,
buried.