The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

FreudianSlippers

snowflaker wrote: »

He is the current Juatice Minister- he would have seen the emails too

He also appears to have purposely failed to comply with a legal order for discovery and attempted to obscure this failure or was ignorant in terms of this failure.

Dinarius

Leroy Fit Gunpoint wrote: »

Why is Flanagan a target?

Yes.

Given a chance, FG would probably set up a police state. In matters of accountability, they are firmly to the right of FF (both of whom I hate, by the way) and a bit cuter than FF's bluff and bluster approach.

D.

McMurphy

Leroy Fit Gunpoint wrote: »

Why is Flanagan a target?

He was also aware of the emails. Just heard on rte1 radio, unconfirmed reports that the I.A are expressing concerns about him too.

tayto lover

There seems to be a lack of good leadership among all the parties.
None of them inspire confidence. Very watery, insipid or furtive characters at the head of politics in this country.

mikep

I think Leo has been badly damaged by this..only a few months in and he looks not to be fully aware of the gravity of the whole garda dysfunction, in thrall to the permanent government I think.

FrancieBrady

A 3 point drop in the polls for FG? More?

Floppybits

tayto lover wrote: »

There seems to be a lack of good leadership among all the parties.
None of them inspire confidence. Very watery, insipid or furtive characters at the head of politics in this country.

All the party leaders are weak. I thought Leo would have raised the bar but he is just the same.  It is the problem in this country with all politicians, they all come across as very weak, jumping from one bandwagon to the other.

oscarBravo

Dinarius wrote: »

Given a chance, FG would probably set up a police state.

Wow. Someone found a way to out-stupid "cushy job".

Nettle Soup

Leroy Fit Gunpoint wrote: »

Why is Flanagan a target?

He sat beside Leo and said nothing while Leo lied to the Dail (re emails and smear campaign)

He also withhold important information from the Charleton tribunal.

He has also shown great cowardice by hiding for the past week.

LuckyLloyd

Hollister11 wrote: »

Watch leo gear up and take Fianna Fail out in the next election.

He's a master of elections for himself, hopefully it benefits Fine Gael at the the next election.

I think it's an extraordinary conclusion to view Vardarkar as any sort of political "master" after the last week.

listermint

I just dont see how you could not visualise the extent of this problem giving the subject matter.

Leo clearly lives in a bubble of his own making based solely off the handling of this.

Its like he has his own personal optics which are off kilter with the general public perception of wanting honest accountability at the top.


Poor form by all concerned.

tayto lover

FFS. Now what will we discuss next week? :mad:

Beechwoodspark

Varadkar the big loser.

Really showed his ineptitude and inexperience the last few days.

Fann Linn

She's gone. Thank God.

JP Liz V1

Is Coveney next in line for Tanaiste?

FrancieBrady

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

So does this mean that Simon Coveney will be appointed Tanaiste?

Heather Humphries maybe?

Cork Boy 53

So does this mean that Simon Coveney will be appointed as the new Tanaiste or is someone else likely to get the position?

Fann Linn

Leo lost the war.

storker

listermint wrote: »

Leo clearly lives in a bubble of his own making based solely off the handling of this.

Maybe he's learning that leadership requires a bit more than just spin and photo ops.

McMurphy

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

So does this mean that Simon Coveney will be appointed Tanaiste?

Someone from the backbenchers will in turn need to be shuffled up to replace whomever is replacing her.

Hard to see Simon Coveney being overlooked.

Odhinn

tayto lover wrote: »

FFS. Now what will we discuss next week? :mad:

Possibly charles flanagan, and where hes dissappeared to.

Fann Linn

Charlie will be next.

deathtocaptcha

Simon Harris as Tánaiste :pac:

nuac

tayto lover wrote: »

FFS. Now what will we discuss next week? :mad:

The putsch by grassroots FG to fire Varad and install Coveney

Twitter and all these new comms will accelerate this

Nettle Soup

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Someone from the backbenchers will in turn need to be shuffled up to replace whomever is replacing her.

Hard to see Simon Coveney being overlooked.

Coveney probably deserves it after his foolish appearance on Claire Byrne last night. He took one for the team there.

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

You might remember the scene in Where Eagles Dare where the uncovered double agent Colonel Wyatt-Turner is given the option by Richard Burton's Major Smith to either return to Britain for trial or avail of the open door of the transport plane, sans parachute.

That's where Frances is this afternoon, and as an election is unpalatable to either the Taoiseach or Mr. Martin, after some megaphone brinkmanship over the weekend I fully expect the Tánaiste's political career to be spread out all over a metaphorical Alp by Monday evening at the latest.

Not a snowballs chance of an election in advance of Christmas

I'll just leave this here. Admittedly I was wrong by about 18 hours.

votecounts

Paschal for the laugh and then lose his seat whenever the next election is?

James Bond Junior

If I was a Fine Geal TD I would be calling for Leo to step down as leader. He really showed his ineptitude and poor judgement. This farce needn't have happened.

Mark my words a vote of no confidence in Leo as leader will follow.

Tony EH

listermint wrote: »

I just dont see how you could not visualise the extent of this problem giving the subject matter.

Leo clearly lives in a bubble of his own making based solely off the handling of this.

Its like he has his own personal optics which are off kilter with the general public perception of wanting honest accountability at the top.

Poor form by all concerned.

If he'd rolled over last 7 days ago, he would have been seen as weak for that as well. I don't think there was any winning for him here.

However, arrogantly bluffing and blustering the way through the week and further wasting the country's time over this nonsense, when the obvious solution was clear to everyone, has damaged him and FG even more. They just end up looking like the spoofers they are.

He thought he'd poker face his way through this and was woefully wrong. In the end, he still has to force Fitzgerald to quit and avoid a Christmas election. It's a serious question hanging over his judgement, especially with the Brexit talks coming up with Britain.

I have to say, I'm not without some sympathy for Varadkar in this. Fitzgerald has been, at best, incompetent and, at worse, a participant in a smear campaign against a man that was trying to do the state some actual service. I'd say there's been some serious words uttered in various meeting rooms between Varadkar and Fitzgerald over this.

JP Liz V1

I think both Charlie and Leo should go too

Wombatman

Does she keep the ministerial pension I wonder? Consigned to the back benches now I guess.

Larbre34

James Bond Junior wrote: »

If I was a Fine Geal TD I would be calling for Leo to step down as leader. He really showed his ineptitude and poor judgement. This farce needn't have happened.

Mark my words a vote of no confidence in Leo as leader will follow.

Yeah, in about 4 years. There'll be internal recriminations and Leo will be chastened, as he should be, but not a hope of a VNC

nuac

votecounts wrote: »

Paschal for the laugh and then lose his seat whenever the next election is?

I doubt if we could stand the excitement of Paschal as 2 i/c this stage

Floppybits

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is Coveney next in line for Tanaiste?

Regina Doherty will be the new Tanaiste.  Only because of this gender equality BS.

Fann Linn

We'll hace to put up with the sickening plaudits from the hypocrites this evening when she resigns.

McMurphy

Floppybits wrote: »

Regina Doherty will be the new Tanaiste.  Only because of this gender equality BS.

After her advocating for civil disobedience?

The law and order party tag is already a running joke now.

https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/regina-doherty-backs-civil-disobedience-plans-on-pylons-436451.html

JP Liz V1

SF should table a motion of no confidence also in Charlie Flanagan

Larbre34

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

SF should table a motion of no confidence also in Charlie Flanagan

A) They'll have to get in line behind AK47 and The weeks not over yet

Sleeper12

Resigned! They should expel her from the party. She's done untold damage to Leo's credibility.

david75

They can’t be but probably are hoping this will all blow over now but the questions remain. Who else knew what and when and were complicit in the cullusion? Numerous people in the Dáil and dept of justice and Garda HQ should also be made to answer for all this, it wasn all Fitzgerald. It looks like she at best didn’t want to know or do anything about it. There was an active campaign to ruin McCabe. Who was behind it? Why are they getting off with it?

Floppybits

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Resigned! They should expel her from the party. She's done untold damage to Leo's credibility.

Its alright she can go to the back benches and sit with Enda and his imaginary friends.   FG are a joke now.  Since they have got into government they have gone from one Fiasco to another and handled every single one of them badly.  What is it now they have lost
2 commissioners
2 Ministers of Justice
1 Taoiseach
Water charges. 
If they were a dog they would have been put down long ago.

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Resigned! They should expel her from the party. She's done untold damage to Leo's credibility.

Think he did some of that to himself, he would have to have known what Katie Hannon revealed last night and still stood by Fitzgerald. If he didn't know well thats even worse.

Floppybits

david75 wrote: »

They can’t be but probably are hoping this will all blow over now but the questions remain. Who else knew what and when and were complicit in the cullusion? Numerous people in the Dáil and dept of justice and Garda HQ should also be made to answer for all this, it wasn all Fitzgerald. It looks like she at best didn’t want to know or do anything about it. There was an active campaign to ruin McCabe. Who was behind it? Why are they getting off with it?

I would also ask whoever is behind it what are they really trying to hide?  There is something going on here, when all this whistleblowing stuff broke all the government had to do was tackle it head on. Do the investigation, roll heads, implement the changes in the AGS and DOJ and move on, but no for some reason they have fought this every inch of the way.  There is something huge there that they are trying to hide.

Larbre34

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Resigned! They should expel her from the party. She's done untold damage to Leo's credibility.

And if she is exonerated by the Tribunal and shown to have acted appropriately? Relax will ya.

Billgirlylegs

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Neither FF nor FG can be trusted with a majority IMO.

This system works well bar the slow pace of legislating.
As we have seen, it is impossible for them (FF FG) to get away with the old ways any longer.
Taking them a while to learn that though, I really thought Leo was the begining of something new.

I thought the same until after the putsch against Enda in 2010.
Whatever about it not succeeding, he was on a radio show (Sam Smyth, I think) and was almost resigned to not continuing in politics.
He had the proverbial battle with his conscience, and having won proved himself to be as self serving as the rest of the fine, honest upstanding men and women in Fianna Gail.
Back in the day I thought that Ms Fitzgerald was a welcome addition to the Dail when she first got elected.

Deise Vu

I haven't been paying much attention to this as I reached peak "Sgt MacCabe" after the Tusla cut and paste 'error'. As far as I was concerned if heads didn't roll after that fiasco, then we are just banging our heads off a brick wall. The way I saw it, somebody either made an error of cataclysmic incompetence or there was something much more sinister afoot. Either way, there should have been a criminal investigation into Sgt McCabe as a result of the erroneous report but there wasn't. I am not aware of any satisfactory explanation for this although I can draw my own conclusions.

Consequently I just yawned when I heard about emails passing the buck, (or keeping the chain of command in the loop as the Civil Service would probably call it). So could someone please tell me am I missing something in the timeline, please. My, possibly erroneous understanding, is that we only found out about Tusla's incompetence (in this particular case) this year. So in 2015, Sgt McCabe was being falsely painted as being a kiddie fiddler and someone who made a comment to a superior officer that he had a grudge against others which may have motivated his complaints. So Frances Fitzgerald received an email saying that McCabe's character would be brought into question at the enquiry. Unless I am missing something, I think I would have just shrugged my shoulders myself and archived that email under my folder "why am I being told this?"

Itssoeasy

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Resigned! They should expel her from the party. She's done untold damage to Leo's credibility.

Leo did enough damage himself to his credibility. How the hell did this mess get this far ? Leo varadkar showed his political inepxperience in this saga. His standing within FG has to be damaged badly.

david75

Floppybits wrote: »

I would also ask whoever is behind it what are they really trying to hide?  There is something going on here, when all this whistleblowing stuff broke all the government had to do was tackle it head on. Do the investigation, roll heads, implement the changes in the AGS and DOJ and move on, but no for some reason they have fought this every inch of the way.  There is something huge there that they are trying to hide.

That’s a great point. It’s all so murky and suggests serious shenanigans. Who has what dirt on who would be why you see them all railing to make this a non issue. It should be as you said a cut and dry investigation and then some heads roll and onwards with it.

The way it is it does look like something is being held over FG as a party or individual members and they’re doing a united front to pretend it’s not happening.


All that said it’s ireland. Nothing is ever done to serve the truth. It’s the old boys club writ large. They all take care of each other and always have. It’s just what we do in this country. To our everlasting shame.

FrancieBrady

Larbre34 wrote: »

And if she is exonerated by the Tribunal and shown to have acted appropriately? Relax will ya.

She will still have lied in the Dail and misled others. Which is why she is gone.

Billgirlylegs

tobsey wrote: »

I can't believe that is the case. There is no way Fitzgerald is going to bring down Varadkar or FG out of spite.


I really don't think that's what it has been. It's been largely a lame duck with very little being achieved. We could do with a period of stability and make some progress without everything being delayed in order to allow everyone score points.

Hopefully it is a first step to a proper parliament where matters are discussed openly, where deals are negotiated on a regular basis to pass proper legislation.

The FF/FG circus in the past where one group of chancers forms and writes All legislation because they cornered 30% of popular vote has been disastrous - leading to boom bust economics.

Some of the stuff has not been great, and party hacks like to paint the independents as flaky. However Maurice McCabe \ Garda "stuff" and NAMA "stuff" has not been exposed by FG or FF.