The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

david75

Fintan asking the important question
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-did-the-department-of-justice-engage-in-a-deliberate-act-of-subversion-1.3308241

tayto lover

James Bond Junior wrote: »

If I was a Fine Geal TD I would be calling for Leo to step down as leader. He really showed his ineptitude and poor judgement. This farce needn't have happened.

Mark my words a vote of no confidence in Leo as leader will follow.

And they will just elect someone equally as bad.
We lack good honest politicians in this country

yabadabado

Larbre34 wrote: »

And if she is exonerated by the Tribunal and shown to have acted appropriately? Relax will ya.

Exonerated of what?
She has lied in The Dail and resigned over it.

If she had told the truth from the start she wouldnt have been in this mess.

david75

Both FF and FG are inept at just about everything apart from looking after themselves.

We all know this. Yet if there was an election out of all this, they’d be elected right back in.

Irish people need to snap out of it realise neither of these parties are any good at the job of actually governing and legislating and take a chance with any other party or coalition. Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Sleeper12

Larbre34 wrote:

And if she is exonerated by the Tribunal and shown to have acted appropriately? Relax will ya.

How could that be? She lied by saying that she couldn't remember the email, let Leo mislead the Dail & let him defend her good nane. She almost caused an election.

It doesn't matter what legal advice she got she had a duty to let Leo know what was going on

tayto lover

david75 wrote: »

Both FF and FG are inept at just about everything apart from looking after themselves.

We all know this. Yet if there was an election out of all this, they’d be elected right back in.

Irish people need to snap out of it realise neither of these parties are any good at the job of actually governing and legislating and take a chance with any other party or coalition. Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Yeah, but I voted Green once and look where that got me. Dearer petrol, car tax etc.

McMurphy

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Resigned! They should expel her from the party. She's done untold damage to Leo's credibility.

Leo has damaged his own credibility.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar insists he wouldn’t accept Tanaiste Frances Fitzgerald’s resignation even if no confidence vote forces Christmas election

He's accepted it now.

LuckyLloyd

Deise Vu wrote: »

I haven't been paying much attention to this as I reached peak "Sgt MacCabe" after the Tusla cut and paste 'error'. As far as I was concerned if heads didn't roll after that fiasco, then we are just banging our heads off a brick wall. The way I saw it, somebody either made an error of cataclysmic incompetence or there was something much more sinister afoot. Either way, there should have been a criminal investigation into Sgt McCabe as a result of the erroneous report but there wasn't. I am not aware of any satisfactory explanation for this although I can draw my own conclusions.

Consequently I just yawned when I heard about emails passing the buck, (or keeping the chain of command in the loop as the Civil Service would probably call it). So could someone please tell me am I missing something in the timeline, please. My, possibly erroneous understanding, is that we only found out about Tusla's incompetence (in this particular case) this year. So in 2015, Sgt McCabe was being falsely painted as being a kiddie fiddler and someone who made a comment to a superior officer that he had a grudge against others which may have motivated his complaints. So Frances Fitzgerald received an email saying that McCabe's character would be brought into question at the enquiry. Unless I am missing something, I think I would have just shrugged my shoulders myself and archived that email under my folder "why am I being told this?"

You're missing two parts:

A) she nonetheless lied to the Dail about the extent of her knowledge and continued to lie about same until further emails released yesterday categorically exposed her as a liar
the emergence of further pertinent emails following another "sweep" indicates that the tribunal created to examine this stuff hasn't been passed all of the necessary information and this has happened under her watch

All in all, why they wasted an extra few days defending her is beyond me - unless there is more that they wanted to pin on her yet to emerge.

Billcarson

All that said it’s ireland. Nothing is ever done to serve the truth. It’s the old boys club writ large. They all take care of each other and always have. It’s just what we do in this country. To our everlasting shame.[/QUOTE]

Politics in this country is rotten to the core. Can't stand FG or FF or the Muppets that keep voting for them. All FG or FF do is go from one crisis to the next etc etc etc. This country is nothing but a joke. What is it going to take for the people of this country to wake up . It just makes my blood boil.

Nettle Soup

Winners
Alan Kelly & Howlin
FF
SF
Simon Harris
M Martin
McCabe (the more his "digusting" smear is publicised, the safer he is)


Losers
Fitzgerald
Leo V
Flanagan
Fine Gael
Department of Justice - grossly inept "permanent government"
Coveney
Gardai
Irish political "system"
Charleton Tribunal (compromised)

Sleeper12

Rick Shaw wrote:

Leo has damaged his own credibility.

I agree he has but I'm assuming he has was defending herself based on the her lies /failing to tell him the full story.

david75

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah, but I voted Green once and look where that got me. Dearer petrol, car tax etc.

They screwed us over royally no doubt but it’s no reason to not want some sort of change from the infinite rolling sh!tshow that is FG/FF tagging in and out every five years. It’s ruining us.

tayto lover

Billcarson wrote: »

All that said it’s ireland. Nothing is ever done to serve the truth. It’s the old boys club writ large. They all take care of each other and always have. It’s just what we do in this country. To our everlasting shame.

Politics in this country is rotten to the core. Can't stand FG or FF or the Muppets that keep voting for them. All FG or FF do is go from one crisis to the next etc etc etc. This country is nothing but a joke. What is it going to take for the people of this country to wake up . It just makes my blood boil.[/QUOTE]


Agree but i've said that for many years and I fail to see any alternative. As I said here before they all have skeletons hidden in some cupboard or other.
I really have nobody to vote for who I feel i can trust to put the country before their own pockets.

FrancieBrady

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I agree he has but I'm assuming he has was defending herself based on the her lies /failing to tell him the full story.

That's naive tbh.
If he didn't check what he was being told then he isn't fit for the job and deserves to go himself.

CPTM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Winners
Alan Kelly & Howlin
FF
SF
Simon Harris
M Martin
McCabe (the more his "digusting" smear is publicised, the safer he is)


Losers
Fitzgerald
Leo V
Flanagan
Fine Gael
Department of Justice - grossly inept "permanent government"
Coveney
Gardai
Irish political "system"
Charleton Tribunal (compromised)

I think Pat Rabbitte's description of MM and V arguing is "like watching two bald men fight over a comb" was a little win for him :pac:

seamus

Funny that so many people claim this is a huge blow for Leo and that the party will be looking for his head next.

Realistically it's shown the party and ministers that he won't throw anyone under the bus just because SF/FF have decided to make a big deal out of something.

He placed his faith in Fitzgerald, misplaced it may have been, but he didn't make a knee-jerk reaction over what initially appeared to be a minor matter.

When it properly became a big ball of sh1te last night, she was this morning quietly given the proverbial revolver and bottle of whiskey.

This populist nonsense of demanding resignations for the tiniest of mistakes has to end. It's utterly meaningless and doesn't solve anything.

I hate using the T-word; but look across the water. Firing people at the drop of the hat, is not a characteristic of a strong or smart leader.

david75

tayto lover wrote: »

Politics in this country is rotten to the core. Can't stand FG or FF or the Muppets that keep voting for them. All FG or FF do is go from one crisis to the next etc etc etc. This country is nothing but a joke. What is it going to take for the people of this country to wake up . It just makes my blood boil.

Agree but i've said that for many years and I fail to see any alternative. As I said here before they all have skeletons hidden in some cupboard or other.
I really have nobody to vote for who I feel i can trust to put the country before their own pockets.[/quote]



This is where I see Sinn Fein coming up roses in all this next election. We know the skeletons in their closet and they’ve put Adams out to pasture so none of that bullish!t FF/FG try to stick on them will work in the next election. They’re going to gain huge ground and are probably still working hard behind the scenes to make an election happen early next year by any means available to them.

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

Funny that so many people claim this is a huge blow for Leo and that the party will be looking for his head next.

Realistically it's shown the party and ministers that he won't throw anyone under the bus just because SF/FF have decided to make a big deal out of something.

He placed his faith in Fitzgerald, misplaced it may have been, but he didn't make a knee-jerk reaction over what initially appeared to be a minor matter.

When it properly became a big ball of sh1te last night, she was this morning quietly given the proverbial revolver and bottle of whiskey.

This populist nonsense of demanding resignations for the tiniest of mistakes has to end. It's utterly meaningless and doesn't solve anything.

I hate using the T-word; but look across the water. Firing people at the drop of the hat, is not a characteristic of a strong or smart leader.

Are you not taking on board the reports of Ministers and TD's being extremely angry with him..'apoplectic' I think one report said.

Again, I think you are being a bit naive here. There will definitely be knives out for him that were not out before.

Mr.Micro

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I agree he has but I'm assuming he has was defending herself based on the her lies /failing to tell him the full story.

For a politician he is very naïve. He appears to be more interested in the stardom of being Taoiseach than hands on.

Dyr

david75 wrote: »

This is where I see Sinn Fein coming up roses in all this next election. We know the skeletons in their closet and they’ve put Adams out to pasture so none of that bullish!t FF/FG try to stick on them will work in the next election. They’re going to gain huge ground and are probably still working hard behind the scenes to make an election happen early next year by any means available to them.

Labour never really made that breakthrough over the years, even when they co-opted their nearest rivals into the party.

The only difference for SF is that FF/FG are much weaker now than they were in Labours heyday, but SF are still looking at running them a close third on the very best day.

david75

Bambi wrote: »

Labour never really made that breakthrough over the years, even when they co-opted their nearest rivals into the party.

The only difference for SF is that FF/FG are much weaker now than they were in Labours heyday, but SF are still looking at running them a close third on the very best day.

I wouldn’t be so sure. If that’s the case why are Leo and Martin often being asked will they go into govt with SF and depending on the day giving different answers than the last time they were asked.

jon1981

So now that FF have drawn blood will they keep going and take out all her supporters?

Meanwhile the Sinners are investing in a bigger pot for the ever increasing volume of sh*t they love to stir...

Nettle Soup

seamus wrote: »

Funny that so many people claim this is a huge blow for Leo and that the party will be looking for his head next.

Realistically it's shown the party and ministers that he won't throw anyone under the bus just because SF/FF have decided to make a big deal out of something.

He placed his faith in Fitzgerald, misplaced it may have been, but he didn't make a knee-jerk reaction over what initially appeared to be a minor matter.

When it properly became a big ball of sh1te last night, she was this morning quietly given the proverbial revolver and bottle of whiskey.

This populist nonsense of demanding resignations for the tiniest of mistakes has to end. It's utterly meaningless and doesn't solve anything.

I hate using the T-word; but look across the water. Firing people at the drop of the hat, is not a characteristic of a strong or smart leader.

The tiniest of mistakes? Those blinkers must be very dark.

Lying to the Dail and withholding information from a tribunal you set up...tiny mistakes.

Oh dear.

James Brown

devnull wrote: »

Remind me, how many dodgy things was Bertie involved in?

All of them were much worse than this.

And how many years did Bertie last despite this?

So after the last crash, all the bluster and bull, the abject failures, Fine Gael resort to whataboutery? I suppose no mater what, there's always 'whataboutery'.

devnull wrote: »

And if he didn't call for the trawl people would hit out at him for not being transparent.

If he wanted to hide things or push them into the distance he wouldn't have called the trawl at all.....

But he wasn't transparent. Have you been following the story? He did hide things. It was coming out and he 'trawled', said nothing, like Fitzgerald and was willing to let the 'stable' government fall to save face and win at politics. Disgraceful.
Fitzgerald left it too late to garner any respect. Narrowly avoided the door hitting her on the way out.

'A lie of omission is still a lie'

devnull wrote: »

As a centrist voter who has a disliking for populist parties because it's always self interest over that of the country...

I'll leave that there.

tobsey

david75 wrote: »

Both FF and FG are inept at just about everything apart from looking after themselves.

We all know this. Yet if there was an election out of all this, they’d be elected right back in.

Irish people need to snap out of it realise neither of these parties are any good at the job of actually governing and legislating and take a chance with any other party or coalition. Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

No that's not what we should do. I don't think taking a gamble and electing any aul rabble just to stick it to the established parties is a very good idea. We've all seen what's happened in the last week. Use that to help you decide who to vote for next time. That doesn't mean you have to vote for someone else just because they haven't had the opportunity to cock anything up yet. That would simply be biting off your nose to spite your face.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

The main thing I want to come out of this big mess is whoever planned and implemented the smear campaign on McCabe to be held to account. No golden handshakes, no big pensions, no changing to a different post. They should be fired out the door and charges brought if any crimes can be proved.

If it can be shown clearly that whistle blowers will be protected, and any attacks on them dealt with severely, we can encourage more to come forward in the future.

On a side note; every politician was bleating on about how the public has no appetite for an election right now. So what? Elections are the essence of a working democracy, if they are needed, that's that.
And this Dail can't last much longer as it is, 'trust' has been eroded between FG and FF. There will be an election sooner rather than later regardless.

Obvious Otter

tayto lover wrote: »

Politics in this country is rotten to the core. Can't stand FG or FF or the Muppets that keep voting for them. All FG or FF do is go from one crisis to the next etc etc etc. This country is nothing but a joke. What is it going to take for the people of this country to wake up . It just makes my blood boil.

Of course it is. We are at the mercy of those that shout and whinge the loudest. The media are only concerned with pressing politicians on the social justice issue of the day. No long term planning, no sane or rational economic policies. Ministers just walk into departments and keep the status quo. Anyone in opposition will just rant and rave about the current topic of the day that will generate the most exposure.

Health - In an absolute state. The government can't waste spend money to meet the obvious shortfall in the Irish Healthcare system but thankfully, the Irish Health Care system is two tiered so you don't have to rely on the state, if you can afford to do so. Pumping money into a system and getting little to no return isn't exactly a great economic policy.

Housing - We set too high standards of building quality that people simply can't afford. Fine Gael have done nothing bar regulating the sector further to discourage people to enter the market. Regulating the private rental market while expecting them to produce more housing is about as dumb as government policy gets.

How many bills have the government passed to date? The Finance Act is embarrassingly only creeping its way through the house now. Irish politics has been a joke and has been as long as I can remember. Nothing will ever change.

What's the point in democracy when the majority of the electorate just vote for the same people over and over again. What is scary is the emergence of radical left wing groups. Whatever about Fine Gael, the alternative isn't much better:

Fianna Fail - Chancers
Labour - Anyone remember 'Labour's way or Frankfurt's way?'
Sinn Fein - Will promise anyone anything to get elected.
Solidarity- PBP - Socialist nutcases that supported Brexit
Green Party - A complete waste of time (Thanks for all the Diesels!)

drkpower

"I would like to thank the Taoiseach for showing the same courage and determination to protect my good name that he displayed three years ago when he stood-up and defended the reputation of Maurice McCabe."

A very good point.

Loafing Oaf

david75 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be so sure. If that’s the case why are Leo and Martin often being asked will they go into govt with SF and depending on the day giving different answers than the last time they were asked.

Are they? I can only recall a consistent "No, nay, never" from both in answer to that question.

tomwaterford

Surly the big question now is who held back the info from the Charlton tribunal and what repercussions will they face


This also begs the question of the quality and totality of info provided to any tribunal which has been supplied by DOJ

FrancieBrady

jon1981 wrote: »

So now that FF have drawn blood will they keep going and take out all her supporters?

Meanwhile the Sinners are investing in a bigger pot for the ever increasing volume of sh*t they love to stir...

What function do you think an opposition party should have if you think SF were just stirring it?

I would love to know.
I expect an opposition to always hold the government to account, wheter they be SF, FF, FG, Labour or whoever.

A parliament is pointless if that doesn't happen.

david75

tobsey wrote: »

No that's not what we should do. I don't think taking a gamble and electing any aul rabble just to stick it to the established parties is a very good idea. We've all seen what's happened in the last week. Use that to help you decide who to vote for next time. That doesn't mean you have to vote for someone else just because they haven't had the opportunity to cock anything up yet. That would simply be biting off your nose to spite your face.

Well come next election can we start asking candidates real questions like what qualifications do you have that make you suitable for this role? Can you show us previous experience at actually getting sh!t done nationally and any contributions you made (rather than locally just to ensure you got the nod next time)

Tbh I’d vote for anyone apart from FF/FG in direct disagreement with the notion that the new parties might make a balls of it.

We’ve had the same two parties consistently making a balls of it since the foundation of the state!

James Brown

Mr.Micro wrote: »

For a politician he is very naïve. He appears to be more interested in the stardom of being Taoiseach than hands on.

I use to think that was intentional, playing the hipster statesman, but Trudeau has invoked many inclusive policies in Canada, Varadkar is divisive and conceited. When you think about it he's merely carried on being all mouth and no trousers into the Taoiseach's office.
Maybe some FG'ers genuinely thought he was the young firebrand, but I expect he was made leader because he's all about deflection and distraction. 'Talking loud and saying nothing' as James Brown said.

FrancieBrady

tomwaterford wrote: »

Surly the big question now is who held back the info from the Charlton tribunal and what repercussions will they face


This also begs the question of the quality and totality of info provided to any tribunal which has been supplied by DOJ

That's the core issue now. C. Flanagan should be immediately in the dock.

tomwaterford

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's the core issue now. C. Flanagan should be immediately in the dock.

If the inquiry finds he's been responsible/implicated for this...best he can hope for is an election before another same scenario happens as this

drkpower

It is pretty clear here that the biggest offendor is the DoJ, which seems pretty dysfunctional. But the rabble have got their Minister, and who knows they might get another. After that they will probably melt away, and then onto the next political crisis and call for another head.

And on and on it goes. And no-one seems to see that it is utterly counterproductive. But it feels oh so good to call minister X 'incompetent' and government Y a 'shambles'. So that's ok then.

david75

david75 wrote: »

Well come next election can we start asking candidates real questions like what qualifications do you have that make you suitable for this role? Can you show us previous experience at actually getting sh!t done nationally and any contributions you made (rather than locally just to ensure you got the nod next time)

Tbh I’d vote for anyone apart from FF/FG in direct disagreement with the notion that the new parties might make a balls of it.

We’ve had the same two parties consistently making a balls of it since the foundation of the state!

*and getting away with it since the foundation of the state!


(Sorry for the self quote)

Leslie91

I'm all for getting rid......... but when will we see the day that those guilty of this are punished be it put away or especially financially? all I see are people getting to retire early as ridiculously rich people, see Callinan, Neary, Noirin etc.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you not taking on board the reports of Ministers and TD's being extremely angry with him..'apoplectic' I think one report said.

What reports? Tweets about "sources" aren't really valid - anyone can be a source and can repeat anything nth-hand information they got in the pub.
That's all the reporting I've seen.

I'm sure they're pretty pissed off at Fitzgerald and Flanagan. And there'll be a handful of told-you-so-ers throwing daggers at Varadkar.

But as far as I can see his hands are pretty clean, he just ended up backing the wrong horse. Naivety or inexperience, perhaps. Maybe a desire to be seen as a strong leader kicked in rather than pulling Fitzgerald aside and properly grilling her on the matter.

James Brown

tobsey wrote: »

No that's not what we should do. I don't think taking a gamble and electing any aul rabble just to stick it to the established parties is a very good idea. We've all seen what's happened in the last week. Use that to help you decide who to vote for next time. That doesn't mean you have to vote for someone else just because they haven't had the opportunity to cock anything up yet. That would simply be biting off your nose to spite your face.

To be fair that sounds like party approved scaremongering.
Might the 'rabble' cause a financial crash, finance private profiteering in the housing industry, with tax payer money? Watch homelessness and emergency accommodation break records and down play it? It's not about sticking it to parties, that's the political style of Fine Gael as borne out over the past few days. It's about wanting better.
Hopefully the days of people voting for FF/FG because they are allegedly marginally the better option, are over. FF/FG are not up to standard. I wonder how it sits knowing any votes you do get outside of the party faithful are because you are the slightly better option of a rotten choice?

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

What reports? Tweets about "sources" aren't really valid - anyone can be a source and can repeat anything nth-hand information they got in the pub.
That's all the reporting I've seen.

I'm sure they're pretty pissed off at Fitzgerald and Flanagan. And there'll be a handful of told-you-so-ers throwing daggers at Varadkar.

But as far as I can see his hands are pretty clean, he just ended up backing the wrong horse. Naivety or inexperience, perhaps. Maybe a desire to be seen as a strong leader kicked in rather than pulling Fitzgerald aside and properly grilling her on the matter.

There have been RTE reporters on all morning talking about it.

But you seem to have the inside story, do you have sources for your points?

FrancieBrady

tomwaterford wrote: »

If the inquiry finds he's been responsible/implicated for this...best he can hope for is an election before another same scenario happens as this

Hmmm. I don't think he will get to the safety of the inquiry tbh.

Loafing Oaf

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Hopefully the days of people voting for FF/FG because they are allegedly marginally the better option, are over. FF/FG are not up to standard.

Well, according to the November 11 Sunday Times/Behaviour and Attitudes poll, Sinn Fein were on 14% and none of the other left-wing parties were over the margin of error. So I wouldn't hold out too much hope...

Nettle Soup

FrancieBrady wrote: »

tomwaterford wrote: »

Surly the big question now is who held back the info from the Charlton tribunal and what repercussions will they face


This also begs the question of the quality and totality of info provided to any tribunal which has been supplied by DOJ

That's the core issue now. C. Flanagan should be immediately in the dock.

Just because Fitzgerald resigned doesnt preclude her from the dock. We still don't know WHY she lied and WHY they withheld key info from Charleton.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There have been RTE reporters on all morning talking about it.

I don't have the luxury of watching TV all day, I can only go on what's been written down.

But you seem to have the inside story, do you have sources for your points?

I never implied I did, simply calling things as I see them.

James Brown

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well, according to the November 11 Sunday Times/Behaviour and Attitudes poll, Sinn Fein were on 14% and none of the other left-wing parties were over the margin of error. So I wouldn't hold out too much hope...

Yeah, the 'populist' parties who allegedly create policies just to win votes, seems to be a bull**** notion created by FF/FG.

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

I don't have the luxury of watching TV all day, I can only go on what's been written down.

I never implied I did, simply calling things as I see them.

Ever heard of radio?

And the reporters are likely a bit closer to see and hear things than you or I

Sleeper12

I don't think it will ever change. FG supporter on Joe Duffy says she's done nothing wrong. He tries to bring up something about Bertie from more than 10 years ago to justify her conduct.

If we don't get away from this type of logic we'll never move forward as and country.

Mooooo

Civil servant high up in the department's need to be accountable as much as anyone else

tayto lover

Mooooo wrote: »

Civil servant high up in the department's need to be accountable as much as anyone else

But the buck stops with the boss.