The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

FreudianSlippers

I am guessing the next push by FF this week or next is to demand restructuring / reform of the DOJ.

Zubeneschamali

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I am guessing the next push by FF this week or next is to demand restructuring / reform of the DOJ.

Is there anything to be said for another All Party Committee?

Deise Vu

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're missing two parts:

A) she nonetheless lied to the Dail about the extent of her knowledge and continued to lie about same until further emails released yesterday categorically exposed her as a liar
the emergence of further pertinent emails following another "sweep" indicates that the tribunal created to examine this stuff hasn't been passed all of the necessary information and this has happened under her watch

All in all, why they wasted an extra few days defending her is beyond me - unless there is more that they wanted to pin on her yet to emerge.

Sorry but that still doesn't explain it for me. To the best of my (half-interested at this stage) knowledge, it was widely, even if erroneously, known in 2015 that Sgt McCabe was under suspicion of what is generally regarded as the worst kind of crime (I'd heard it myself from a relative in the Guards). In those circumstances you would expect counsel for the Guards to question his integrity would you not? I don't see how the email would have caused anything other than a yawn in Frances Fitzgerald's office. I think everyone is looking at this in the light of the Tusla revelations this year rather than the existing knowledge in 2015.

I genuinely do not see the big deal here, especially when compared with the campaign to discredit Sgt McCabe which is really like something from a Grisham or Le Carré novel. That something like that could happen in 21st century Ireland has spooked me no end. I can't get my head around the fact that there aren't people doing time for it.

drkpower

tayto lover wrote: »

But the buck stops with the boss.

Sigh....

As long as people believe this nothing will ever change. Even on a purely practical level, this isnt possible given how a minister might be in charge of a department for 2 years or so yet the Department has a lifetime of issues (and skeletons).

But more fundamentally, if the minister takes the fall for every departmental flaw (usually deep historical flaws), the completely predictable response to that is that the minister - for pure political survival purposes - will (1) do absolutely nothing significant structural with the department for fear of upsetting anyone who might then start briefing against her and (2) will overlook/distance herself from departmental wrongdoings for fear that she will become infected by them resulting in her dismissal because the 'buck stops with her'.

Yet, when the minister acts in this entirely predictable way, you are likely to be the first person calling for her head........

[recognise any of the above themes in the current 'scandal'.....?]

flaneur

What’s worrying me is they’ll all think this is now sorted.
Unless they do a major restructuring, all of this will amount to nothing...

McMurphy

flaneur wrote: »

What’s worrying me is they’ll all think this is now sorted.
Unless they do a major restructuring, all of this will amount to nothing...

Keep watching.


My guess is the next development will be Alan Kelly/Lab and or SF having no confidence in Charlie Flanagan.

Hitman3000

Rick Shaw wrote:

My guess is the next development will be Alan Kelly/Lab and or SF having no confidence in Charlie Flanagan.

That is one of the fears of FG, give them one head and they'll back for more. I would assume a deal has been done whereby FF will support FG no matter what now, for the good of the country of course.

Mooooo

tayto lover wrote: »

But the buck stops with the boss.

Are they really the boss tho.? Politicians come and go haven't seen many senior civil servants given the road

FrancieBrady

Hitman3000 wrote: »

That is one of the fears of FG, give them one head and they'll back for more. I would assume a deal has been done whereby FF will support FG no matter what now, for the good of the country of course.

Absolutely what has happened.

tayto lover

drkpower wrote: »

Sigh....

As long as people believe this nothing will ever change. Even on a purely practical level, this isnt possible given how a minister might be in charge of a department for 2 years or so yet the Department has a lifetime of issues (and skeletons).

But more fundamentally, if the minister takes the fall for every departmental flaw (usually deep historical flaws), the completely predictable response to that is that the minister - for pure political survival purposes - will (1) do absolutely nothing significant structural with the department for fear of upsetting anyone who might then start briefing against her and (2) will overlook/distance herself from departmental wrongdoings for fear that she will become infected by them resulting in her dismissal because the 'buck stops with her'.

Yet, when the minister acts in this entirely predictable way, you are likely to be the first person calling for her head........

[recognise any of the above themes in the current 'scandal'.....?]

I'd be calling for all the politicians heads as I don't trust one of them.
I was replying to a post who asked if the heads of the staff members on the DoJ should role and I answered that the "buck stops with the boss" i.e. the most senior figure. That's not implying that nobody else fcuked up.

Floppybits

FG never learn do they. Mick Wallace has just told the Taoiseach that he will be bringing more Garda revelations to the house in the next couple of weeks that will shock him and the idiots on the FG benches are sniggering at this.  Have they learned nothing.

charlie14

Deise Vu wrote: »

Sorry but that still doesn't explain it for me. To the best of my (half-interested at this stage) knowledge, it was widely, even if erroneously, known in 2015 that Sgt McCabe was under suspicion of what is generally regarded as the worst kind of crime (I'd heard it myself from a relative in the Guards). In those circumstances you would expect counsel for the Guards to question his integrity would you not? I don't see how the email would have caused anything other than a yawn in Frances Fitzgerald's office. I think everyone is looking at this in the light of the Tusla revelations this year rather than the existing knowledge in 2015.

I genuinely do not see the big deal here, especially when compared with the campaign to discredit Sgt McCabe which is really like something from a Grisham or Le Carré novel. That something like that could happen in 21st century Ireland has spooked me no end. I can't get my head around the fact that there aren't people doing time for it.

As far as I understand, and I may be incorrect here, those as you put it "worst kind of crimes" had already been looked into by the Director of Public Prosecutions with a direction that there was no case to answer. If so then Fitzgerald as Minister for Justice was well aware of that.

What I do know for certain is that at the O`Higgins inquiry two Garda, one a chief superintendent gave evidence with the Garda Commissioners knowledge and backing that were show to be a pack of lies when McCabe produced the recording he made of this alleged conversation.

What came to light in last nights emails (which Varadkar knew off since Friday, but kept quite on while sending his colleagues out to make eejits of themselves and tried bluffing FF on), now looks nothing more than the Commissioner and Fitzgerald being happy to throw McCabe to the wolves using lies and smears and then both colluding to get their story straight and off the same page.

Floppybits

Still waiting to see what happens to the 2 Gardai that McCabe recorded and proved they were lying?

James Brown

Deise Vu wrote: »

Sorry but that still doesn't explain it for me. To the best of my (half-interested at this stage) knowledge, it was widely, even if erroneously, known in 2015 that Sgt McCabe was under suspicion of what is generally regarded as the worst kind of crime (I'd heard it myself from a relative in the Guards). In those circumstances you would expect counsel for the Guards to question his integrity would you not? I don't see how the email would have caused anything other than a yawn in Frances Fitzgerald's office. I think everyone is looking at this in the light of the Tusla revelations this year rather than the existing knowledge in 2015.

I genuinely do not see the big deal here, especially when compared with the campaign to discredit Sgt McCabe which is really like something from a Grisham or Le Carré novel. That something like that could happen in 21st century Ireland has spooked me no end. I can't get my head around the fact that there aren't people doing time for it.

And that's why we have the quality we do in our FF/FG governments.
The Tanaiste lied. The Taoiseach knew and covered it up. These things should be a big deal, even in Ireland.
The investigation was into McCabe's claims. The investigation into these claims should have been impartial. McCabe was put under suspicion as a result of his whistle blowing. When a person reports a crime to the Garda, they need investigate the claim. Any separate investigation, into a separate issue, is, well a separate issue. Shatter knew there was more to it, as did Fitzgerald.

I'd say Martin thinks he scored and he'll sit back. We won't see any real accountability. Varadkar will be happy to let it melt away.
If Fine Gael or Fianna Fail had any integrity they'd be kicking over rocks to get to the bottom of this whole affair 'for the sake of the country', but they've no interest past scoring points and power.

Dyr

Hitman3000 wrote: »

That is one of the fears of FG, give them one head and they'll back for more. I would assume a deal has been done whereby FF will support FG no matter what now, for the good of the country of course.

Charlie stuck his own neck on the block

tayto lover

Mooooo wrote: »

Are they really the boss tho.? Politicians come and go haven't seen many senior civil servants given the road

Two garda Commissioners went, the confidential receipient too.

Billcarson

This is where I see Sinn Fein coming up roses in all this next election. We know the skeletons in their closet and they’ve put Adams out to pasture so none of that bullish!t FF/FG try to stick on them will work in the next election. They’re going to gain huge ground and are probably still working hard behind the scenes to make an election happen early next year by any means available to them.[/QUOTE]

Indeed,I would love to see a real challenge to FF and FG. Adams stepping down next year is a great thing imo, FF and FG won't like that ! I'm no huge SF supporter or anything but any alternative is what's needed imo. I live for the day to see FF and FG both getting destroyed at an election,please God one day!

Deise Vu

charlie14 wrote: »

As far as I understand, and I may be incorrect here, those as you put it "worst kind of crimes" had already been looked into by the Director of Public Prosecutions with a direction that there was no case to answer. If so then Fitzgerald as Minister for Justice was well aware of that.

What I do know for certain is that at the O`Higgins inquiry two Garda, one a chief superintendent gave evidence with the Garda Commissioners knowledge and backing that were show to be a pack of lies when McCabe produced the recording he made of this alleged conversation.

What came to light in last nights emails (which Varadkar knew off since Friday, but kept quite on while sending his colleagues out to make eejits of themselves and tried bluffing FF on), now looks nothing more than the Commissioner and Fitzgerald being happy to throw McCabe to the wolves using lies and smears and then both colluding to get their story straight and off the same page.

The initial allegation that there was 'inappropriate contact' playing hide and seek was investigated and the DPP directed no further action be taken. The Tusla "cut and paste" error of digital penetration was never investigated but the allegation was widely circulated to everyone except Sgt McCabe it seems. That is the real scandal. It honestly shakes me to the core.

tayto lover

Floppybits wrote: »

FG never learn do they. Mick Wallace has just told the Taoiseach that he will be bringing more Garda revelations to the house in the next couple of weeks that will shock him and the idiots on the FG benches are sniggering at this. Have they learned nothing.

Is Wallace drunk today?

raspberrypi67

These continue to be the type of people we put into government , words cant describe the blatent lies we have to endure. So much for fairness and transparancy they go on about...
And Francis is only resigning for the 'Sake of the Country' , what Bo***x, what no apology.....

Water John wrote: »

Katie Hannon says Francis Fitzgerald had some awareness of the Commissioner's legal team's attack strategy around the time it actually happened. Not a year later as we have been led to believe.

Francis Fitzgerald, Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar need to come clean, in the Dail.

Deise Vu

tayto lover wrote: »

Is Wallace drunk today?

How would we be able to tell?

James Brown

Deise Vu wrote: »

How would we be able to tell?

Maybe if he grabs a colleague onto his lap?

charlie14

Hitman3000 wrote: »

That is one of the fears of FG, give them one head and they'll back for more. I would assume a deal has been done whereby FF will support FG no matter what now, for the good of the country of course.

It sounds as if it is the Independent Alliance, FG`s partners in government that are gunning for Flanagan.

I`m not saying he does not have questions to answer in all this, but for the IA to be leading the charge is hypocrisy

They were backing Fitzgerald up to and well past the eleventh hour and are now simply attempting to deflect.
If this government is going to fall shortly I wouldn`t be surprised if it is the IA that bring it down for nothing more than an attempt at electorally saving their own hides.

votecounts

tayto lover wrote: »

Is Wallace drunk today?

Wallace mentioned at the weekend that he had more revelations that would make the hair stand up on your back. I think it it was either a week in politics or the the political show with sarah mcinerny on sunday.

flaneur

I'd say all that's really holding this together is either a concern about Brexit, or more likely, a bit of premature electioneering by Fianna Fail, who forgot that it was a few weeks before Christmas and nobody was going to pay any attention.

If FF are going to take the government down, it would want to be on an issue that actually grabs the public interest and, unfortunately, the public are self-centred so it will be something to do with tax or some kind of service charge, rather than something about principles and values like this.

Red_Wake

votecounts wrote: »

tayto lover wrote: »

Is Wallace drunk today?

Wallace mentioned at the weekend that he had more revelations that would make the hair stand up on your back. I think it it was either a week in politics or the the political show with sarah mcinerny on sunday.

Presumably whoever it is these revelations concern, will be someone against whom Mick has an axe to grind, as he did with Cerberus.

I'm sure in time, any enquiry into this matter will find Frances Fitzgerald did nothing inappropriate, similiar to how Alan Shatter was exonerated in similiar circumstances. Not that the opposition,electorate or media will acknowledge their mistake.

Deise Vu

Matt Barrett wrote: »

And that's why we have the quality we do in our FF/FG governments.
The Tanaiste lied. The Taoiseach knew and covered it up. These things should be a big deal, even in Ireland.
The investigation was into McCabe's claims. The investigation into these claims should have been impartial. McCabe was put under suspicion as a result of his whistle blowing. When a person reports a crime to the Garda, they need investigate the claim. Any separate investigation, into a separate issue, is, well a separate issue. Shatter knew there was more to it, as did Fitzgerald.

I'd say Martin thinks he scored and he'll sit back. We won't see any real accountability. Varadkar will be happy to let it melt away.
If Fine Gael or Fianna Fail had any integrity they'd be kicking over rocks to get to the bottom of this whole affair 'for the sake of the country', but they've no interest past scoring points and power.

It is only a big deal if Frances Fitzgerald knew the allegations against Sgt McCabe were false and possibly malicious. Otherwise a shrug of the shoulders would be the reaction of the vast majority of people.

Hitman3000

Red_Wake wrote:

I'm sure in time, any enquiry into this matter will find Frances Fitzgerald did nothing inappropriate, similiar to how Alan Shatter was exonerated in similiar circumstances. Not that the opposition,electorate or media will acknowledge their mistake.

You miss the bit where she lied, allowed her leader mislead the Dail on several occasions?

Chips Lovell

flaneur wrote: »

I'd say all that's really holding this together is either a concern about Brexit, or more likely, a bit of premature electioneering by Fianna Fail, who forgot that it was a few weeks before Christmas and nobody was going to pay any attention.

I don't really understand the concern about Brexit. I reckon we could have two elections and still be waiting around for the British to get realistic about it.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

Presumably whoever it is these revelations concern, will be someone against whom Mick has an axe to grind, as he did with Cerberus.

I'm sure in time, any enquiry into this matter will find Frances Fitzgerald did nothing inappropriate, similiar to how Alan Shatter was exonerated in similiar circumstances. Not that the opposition,electorate or media will acknowledge their mistake.

She lied in the Dail and misled others. Something the Tribunal will have nothing to do with.

Why do people keep glossing over this?

Sierra Oscar

Floppybits wrote: »

Still waiting to see what happens to the 2 Gardai that McCabe recorded and proved they were lying?

Mick Wallace revealed in the Dáil that one of those present was Superintendent Noel Cunnigham, who has since made an appearance before the Disclosures Tribunal.

He is the current President of the Association of Garda Superintendents.

Tony EH

Deise Vu wrote: »

It is only a big deal if Frances Fitzgerald knew the allegations against Sgt McCabe were false and possibly malicious. Otherwise a shrug of the shoulders would be the reaction of the vast majority of people.

Actually, I think a lot of people would like to know what evidence there was to back up such egregious claims.

Mooooo

tayto lover wrote: »

Two garda Commissioners went, the confidential receipient too.

Well yes, aware of those and no doubt this issue is specific to the gardai, but I'm referring to those running the department's with which the politicians head. Cant see much changing even with a change in government unless that change is implemented from the top down within the civil service

James Brown

Deise Vu wrote: »

It is only a big deal if Frances Fitzgerald knew the allegations against Sgt McCabe were false and possibly malicious. Otherwise a shrug of the shoulders would be the reaction of the vast majority of people.

Telling lies is a pretty big deal to most people.

Tell me how

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I don't really understand the concern about Brexit. I reckon we could have two elections and still be waiting around for the British to get realistic about it.

Brexit is huge. The UK (English) politicians want to ignore us as much as possible. If we were't able to challenge them when they make ludicrous statements like the "border problem will be done easily with technology" or "if it doesn't work, we can revisit it" then they are more likely to be able to move on to the next phase without giving it due care and attention. It's not a given as Europe themselves want it resolved but it would weaken our position.

If we were preparing for an election or were struggling to form a government or so on, our protestations would carry less weight as they would be heavily presented by pro-brexit media as coming from a government in turmoil which would make it easy to deflect as unreasonable and populist positions done purely to gain power in Dublin.
March 2019 is only 16 months away, giving up maybe 25% of this before a new government has their feet under the table would be criminal.

I thought Leo was doing fine in this respect, I thought Simon Coveney handled Boris well last week. We do not need to weaken our approach at this time.

Zubeneschamali

Tell me how wrote: »

If we were preparing for an election or were struggling to form a government or so on, our protestations would carry less weight as they would be heavily presented by pro-brexit media as coming from a government in turmoil which would make it easy to deflect as unreasonable and populist positions done purely to gain power in Dublin.

The UK is not negotiating with us at all. They are negotiating with the EU. The EU are already well briefed on the Irish position and have our backs.

An election here will have zero effect on brexit negotiations.

McMurphy

Red_Wake wrote: »

I'm sure in time, any enquiry into this matter will find Frances Fitzgerald did nothing inappropriate, similiar to how Alan Shatter was exonerated in similiar circumstances. Not that the opposition,electorate or media will acknowledge their mistake.

That ship has sailed


She had 'noted' emails she said she never received and let Leo mislead the Dail.

Denied she knew anything about the smear campaign, despite proof she was coached on what to say should anyone ask.

Another one claimed by the McCabe debacle.

• 2 commissioners.
• 2 ministers for justice (Charlie looking shaky too)
• 2 general seceratries.
• 1 Taoiseach

Leo knew of emails since Friday and said nothing so he's now tarnished too.

FrancieBrady

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The UK is not negotiating with us at all. They are negotiating with the EU. The EU are already well briefed on the Irish position and have our backs.

An election here will have zero effect on brexit negotiations.

+1

The 'Brexit concern' stuff is a smokescreen to stall doing anything about our political situation.

blanch152

Red_Wake wrote: »

I'm sure in time, any enquiry into this matter will find Frances Fitzgerald did nothing inappropriate, similiar to how Alan Shatter was exonerated in similiar circumstances. Not that the opposition,electorate or media will acknowledge their mistake.

It will find that she did nothing inappropriate.

All Fitzgerald did was forget an email or two that told her she could do nothing about something that she actually did nothing about.

If she had intervened, while forgetting the advice not to intervene, that would certainly raise questions.

The alleged cover-up, if any, comes under Flanagan's watch. However, from the minute he heard about the email, before he even saw it, he said get it over to the tribunal.

There are huge questions for the DoJ in all of this, but why should a Minister resign? Does anyone remember the Public Service Management Act 1997?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/27/section/4/enacted/en/html

Section 4 gives responsibility for the management of the Department to the Secretary General. In terms of who takes responsibility for withholding information from a Tribunal, that is the Secretary General's responsibility, not the Minister's.

Tell me how

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The UK is not negotiating with us at all. They are negotiating with the EU. The EU are already well briefed on the Irish position and have our backs.

An election here will have zero effect on brexit negotiations.

I completely disagree with that view. The EU care only in as much as making sure it is not easy for the UK to leave, after that, they will not fight our corner any more than is purely for show. Why would they?

the wheel is always turning, when Brexit is complete, the EU will absolutely want to trade with the UK and once they start negotiating on that, Ireland better have it's items taken care of as they will gain little attention from then on.

blanch152

Rick Shaw wrote: »

That ship has sailed


She had 'noted' emails she said she never received and let Leo mislead the Dail.

Denied she knew anything about the smear campaign, despite proof she was coached on what to say should anyone ask.

Another one claimed by the McCabe debacle.

• 2 commissioners.
• 2 ministers for justice (Charlie looking shaky too)
• 2 general seceratries.
• 1 Taoiseach

Leo knew of emails since Friday and said nothing so he's now tarnished too.

Except that you are clearly wrong on some of those issues.

She never said she didn't receive the emails, she said she couldn't recall them, a significant difference.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

All Fitzgerald did was forget an email or two that told her she could do nothing about something that she actually did nothing about.

Still with this defense? Despite the misleading of the Dail and lies. It's true FG never learn.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

She lied in the Dail and misled others. Something the Tribunal will have nothing to do with.

Why do people keep glossing over this?

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Telling lies is a pretty big deal to most people.

Are you saying that she lied when she said she couldn't remember the emails from two years ago?

Tell me how

Rick Shaw wrote: »

That ship has sailed


She had 'noted' emails she said she never received and let Leo mislead the Dail.

Denied she knew anything about the smear campaign, despite proof she was coached on what to say should anyone ask.

Another one claimed by the McCabe debacle.

• 2 commissioners.
• 2 ministers for justice (Charlie looking shaky too)
• 2 general seceratries.
• 1 Taoiseach

Leo knew of emails since Friday and said nothing so he's now tarnished too.

I think it's stretching it to suggest Kenny went because of McCabe. He was playing the long goodbye for a couple of years before he actually left and when he did, it was entirely on his terms.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

but why should a Minister resign?

Because she lied and allowed the Taoiseach mislead the Dail on several occasions. It moved on from she could do and couldn't quite quickly.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you saying that she lied when she said she couldn't remember the emails from two years ago?

I'm saying she lied yesterday when she said she had done nothing inappropriate in full knowledge the proof of her being notified was out there.
I'm saying she lied about not being made aware. She says she forgot one email, turns out she 'forgot' more and her 'legal' advice was a lie too, or maybe she forgot that it wasn't legal advice?
I'm also saying Vardakar covered for her lies.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Except that you are clearly wrong on some of those issues.

She never said she didn't receive the emails, she said she couldn't recall them, a significant difference.

She shifted position to probably but didn't recall receiving it as I recall.

McCabe claimed her predecessors job. So not recalling something he was at the centre of, and instructed her to say specific things related to it isn't really credible I'm afraid.

Floppybits

Hitman3000 wrote: »

blanch152 wrote:

but why should a Minister resign?

Because she lied and allowed the Taoiseach mislead the Dail on several occasions. It moved on from she could do and couldn't quite quickly.

According to FG Ministers should be let lie and not be answerable to anyone. Now if FG were in opposition it would probably be a different story.

Deise Vu

Tony EH wrote: »

Actually, I think a lot of people would like to know what evidence there was to back up such egregious claims.

I really hope people understand that there is no evidence to back up the claims. There was an unfortunate cut and paste 'error'.

Right, nothing against you but I am exiting this thread. It seems to me everyone is definitely looking at it in the light of the 2016 revelations and I am only repeating myself in saying the real scandal is in Tusla and the Guards.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you saying that she lied when she said she couldn't remember the emails from two years ago?

I am saying she lied on a number of occasions and is still lying by virtue of the fact that she has accepted no blame and is refusing to accept why she is in disgrace and out of ministry.