The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

Zubeneschamali

Rick Shaw wrote: »

McCabe claimed her predecessors job.

Instructive, since Shatter did nothing wrong and got dumped anyway.

Hitman3000

Floppybits wrote:

According to FG Ministers should be let lie and not be answerable to anyone. Now if FG were in opposition it would probably be a different story.

The same attitude sames to prevail amongst their supporters. She is on record as having lied but yet we hear the trotted out defense of she did Nothing wrong. Well she's resigned and it seems Flanagan is now in the cross hairs so to speak.

McMurphy

Tell me how wrote: »

I think it's stretching it to suggest Kenny went because of McCabe. He was playing the long goodbye for a couple of years before he actually left and when he did, it was entirely on his terms.

Answered this last night

Enda became embroiled in the TUSLA scandal, lied, tried to throw Zappone under the bus, and suffered calls for his resignation soon afterwards.

It's simply not believable that this didn't expedite his departure.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you saying that she lied when she said she couldn't remember the emails from two years ago?

Instead of trying to vindicate somebody who clearly lied in the Dail, do you have a theory as to why FG have such difficulty in sorting out this issue once and for all?
Why have they let it cost so much in terms of Ministers, Commissioners and staff?

Genuinely interested in the thoughts of somebody willing to defend them.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am saying she lied on a number of occasions and is still lying by virtue of the fact that she has accepted no blame and is refusing to accept why she is in disgrace and out of ministry.

You still haven't explained what lies she told.

You can say you don't believe her when says that she doesn't remember the emails, but what lies did she tell?

Sierra Oscar

blanch152 wrote: »

Except that you are clearly wrong on some of those issues.

She never said she didn't receive the emails, she said she couldn't recall them, a significant difference.

What she said was that she was not aware of the legal strategy until it became public in May 2016.

Now we know that she got three emails alerting her to the fact in 2015 as the situation was unfolding in the O'Higgins Comission, that she noted the emails and that she also received a briefing by a senior official on how to manage media queries after there was contact between her Department and the Garda Press Office via the Garda Commissioner.

That's why she has been forced to resign.

Floppybits

The Tusla scandal I don't believe is an honest mistake.  Think of it, of all the files for the mix up to happen too it had to be Maurice McCabe, I find that very hard to believe.  More believable is that they someone with Authority made the decision to do that in the file and instructed that it be done.

Wombatman

She did nothing wrong according to Leo. The medjia are to blame. She fell on her sword for the good of the country. A true heroine :rolleyes:

In the past few days a drip-drip of information may have made certain things seem greater than they are. There was a feeding frenzy, and it became impossible for her to get a fair hearing based on the full facts. I hope that will change in the period ahead.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/statement-by-leo-varadkar-on-fitzgerald-s-resignation-1.3308373

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

You still haven't explained what lies she told.

You can say you don't believe her when says that she doesn't remember the emails, but what lies did she tell?

Currently, even today, she stands by her claim she forgot the one email and therefore she wasn't aware of anything.
We know she was notified by emails and people in her then department.
She was aware, even if she had forgot all that, last Friday. Yet as of today, she has not retracted her lies. Also Varadkar was aware of all this last Friday and I guess forgot not to back her in her lies.

Her claim she resigned for the good of the country is laughable.

Again, let's see Varadkar follow through to get to the bottom of this. I expect he's simply being full of waffle.

flaneur

It was all just an unusually high concentration of utterly bizarre coincidences and administrative anomalies. There's absolutely nothing, whatsoever to be suspicious at all. The main thing is to make sure that we keep doing whatever it is we were doing in exactly the same way and change absolutely nothing, now that we have dealt with it politically and everyone's had a good opportunity to vent.

Business as usual, folks! Nothing to see here.

Tony EH

Deise Vu wrote: »

I really hope people understand that there is no evidence to back up the claims. There was an unfortunate cut and paste 'error'.

That's the point.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You still haven't explained what lies she told.

You can say you don't believe her when says that she doesn't remember the emails, but what lies did she tell?

She lied, it has been explained to you over and over. FG are where they are because they will not accept that this whole affair is because she did not tell the Dail what she knew and lied to it.


If you can get over it and answer the question I asked, please do. I have no interest in getting into the usual pedantic argument about what constitutes a 'lie' with you.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

You still haven't explained what lies she told.

You can say you don't believe her when says that she doesn't remember the emails, but what lies did she tell?

She told the dail she had no idea about the commissioner pursuing an aggressive policy towards mccabe, but was actually briefed on how to answer questions on the aggressive policy. Plus she "noted" e-mails on the subject. Why, is the question now.

Mr.Micro

flaneur wrote: »

It was all just an unusually high concentration of utterly bizarre coincidences and administrative anomalies. There's absolutely nothing, whatsoever to be suspicious at all. The main thing is to make sure that we keep doing whatever it is we were doing in exactly the same way and change absolutely nothing, now that we have dealt with it politically and everyone's had a good opportunity to vent.

Business as usual, folks! Nothing to see here.

That is exactly what will happen. That is the way it's always been here in Ireland. Pretend outrage by political parties, when it's the system and machinery of Government that needs change.

Nettle Soup

blanch152 wrote: »

You still haven't explained what lies she told.

You can say you don't believe her when says that she doesn't remember the emails, but what lies did she tell?

You really are struggling with this story.

She said she forgot about the 1st email but she gave no reason for all the other emails that turned up on Friday. She didn't forget them all. Is that what you think?
To suggest now that she didn't know what the Gardai were planning during O'Higgins is laughable

FrancieBrady

Nettle Soup wrote: »

You really are struggling with this story.

She said she forgot about the 1st email but she gave no reason for all the other emails that turned up on Friday. She didn't forget them all. Is that what you think?
To suggest now that she didn't know what the Gardai were planning during O'Higgins is laughable

If she didn't do anything wrong WHY did Leo bring us to the brink of an election, claiming her innocence and vowing to defend her and then capitulate and accept her resignation?
So many questions.

Sleeper12

blanch152 wrote:

You can say you don't believe her when says that she doesn't remember the emails, but what lies did she tell?

I don't think there's anyone in the country believes her when she says she didn't remember the email. It actually turned out to be several different emails.

Think of this, she got her job because the previous minister resigned /was sacked because of the McCabe scandal. The commissioner who sent some of the email to her had the job because the previous commissioner resigned /was sacked due to the McCabe scandal.

The minister knew all of the above, read the emails and totally forgot about them? Unless she actually has dementia how can she forget those emails. Possibly the most important emails she's ever received as minister & they meant so little to her that she forgot?

I've no doubt she told Kenny at the time. I actually believe that they were in this together at the time, though we'll never know for sure.

I'm my mind she deliberately lied plain and simple. She hung Leo out to dry, letting him mislead the Dail and then backing her. Her statement of doing what's the best for the country is really rubbing salt in the wounds and makes me sick to my stomach.

Even if you believe her she still should have had to resign for not doing her duty and inform Leo that he was misleading the Dail.

McMurphy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Instructive, since Shatter did nothing wrong and got dumped anyway.

2 things,

Shatter only got exoneration this year,.

And it doesn't take any thing away from my point regardless.

Any email about McCabe was sure to have Fitzgeralds attention .

Hitman3000

Rick Shaw wrote:

Shatter only got exoneration this year,.

Different matter but Shatters appearance on the Pat Kenny show with Mick Wallace and his subsequent divulging of information gathered from AGS about Wallace confirmed to me that he was not fit for the role of MoJ.

FrancieBrady

Why is Leo blaming the DOJ for misleading the Dail?

It was the information he recieved from his Taniste and the failure of C. Flanagan that led to him misleading the Dail was it not?

James Brown

He seems to be blaming the whole structure of the department for not submitting emails. Varadkar is shameful.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Different matter but Shatters appearance on the Pat Kenny show with Mick Wallace and his subsequent divulging of information gathered from AGS about Wallace confirmed to me that he was not fit for the role of MoJ.

He has been exonerated on that one too. There was a small article in one of the papers a few weeks ago where he appealed a data protection finding against him, and he won.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why is Leo blaming the DOJ for misleading the Dail?

It was the information he recieved from his Taniste and the failure of C. Flanagan that led to him misleading the Dail was it not?

Nope, as already explained, it was the fault of the Secretary General, who had the responsibility under Section 4 of the 1997 Public Service Management Act.

blanch152 wrote: »

The alleged cover-up, if any, comes under Flanagan's watch. However, from the minute he heard about the email, before he even saw it, he said get it over to the tribunal.

There are huge questions for the DoJ in all of this, but why should a Minister resign? Does anyone remember the Public Service Management Act 1997?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/27/section/4/enacted/en/html

Section 4 gives responsibility for the management of the Department to the Secretary General. In terms of who takes responsibility for withholding information from a Tribunal, that is the Secretary General's responsibility, not the Minister's.

Loafing Oaf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

When the wiseacre pundits say "It doesn't matter if FitzGerald resigns now, confidence and supply is finished and we're going to have an election early next year," are they right? I mean, is the 'confidence' not (largely) restored if Frances falls on her sword?

So what's the thinking on this now?

Does this who episode illustrate the intrinsic weakness and instability of any 'confidence and supply' deal?

Beechwoodspark

It suits varadkar and FG to blame the civil servants of the dept and not the ministers who are given the authority to lead the department

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

He has been exonerated on that one too. There was a small article in one of the papers a few weeks ago where he appealed a data protection finding against him, and he won.

It's a little nuanced than your eplaination. Shatter used verbal information he received about Wallace. He still used information he received as MoJ to attack a political rival, therefore unfit for office.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Nope, as already explained, it was the fault of the Secretary General, who had the responsibility under Section 4 of the 1997 Public Service Management Act.

Leo first corrected the record and said that he had acted on the information given to him by the Taniste about the original email.

She didn't tell him about the other emails as far as we know, apparently she forgot about them as well.

Hitman3000

I'm impressed with the dogged defense of the indefensible that is apparent in the posts of a few tenacious individual here. If only people believed these people rather than the truth Fitzgerald would still be in position.
Now with that no reason to comment further on this thread, other than to wonder how long will Flanagan be safe?

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

Nope, as already explained, it was the fault of the Secretary General, who had the responsibility under Section 4 of the 1997 Public Service Management Act.

The minister received a briefing on how to handle queries on the hostile stance of the commissioner. She then went on to lie to the dail. QED.

Billgirlylegs

seamus wrote: »

Funny that so many people claim this is a huge blow for Leo and that the party will be looking for his head next.

Realistically it's shown the party and ministers that he won't throw anyone under the bus just because SF/FF have decided to make a big deal out of something.

He placed his faith in Fitzgerald, misplaced it may have been, but he didn't make a knee-jerk reaction over what initially appeared to be a minor matter.

When it properly became a big ball of sh1te last night, she was this morning quietly given the proverbial revolver and bottle of whiskey.

This populist nonsense of demanding resignations for the tiniest of mistakes has to end. It's utterly meaningless and doesn't solve anything.

I hate using the T-word; but look across the water. Firing people at the drop of the hat, is not a characteristic of a strong or smart leader.

You say this is a "tiniest mistake"?
The smear campaign was dead in the water. But she got an email to say Noirin O Sullivan was going to proceed with this stuff - remember the judge asked counsel were they sure this is what they were instructed to ask.
Garda Commissioner, Head of Department, Minister for Justice were already casualties over mishandling the affair.

Nobody involved would forget that shambles.
Unless you were incompetent.
Or lying.

What reason did she give for resigning anyway - up to this all we got was "nothing to see here"

James Brown

If folks were genuinely concerned with the running of the state, their time might be occupied with Varadkar willing to go to the mattresses polls defending a stance, he knew to be false. If he is capable of that, all the talk of stable government is for naught.
The power sharing deal with Fianna Fail is simply for the power, not the good of the country.
But if it were for the good of the country, the country can go whistle on a point scoring whim.
Really puts the whole 'Fianna Fail are abhorrent, but for the country, we need a stable government' crapola into perspective.

'An end to cronyism'. If only we knew Kenny was being so sarcastic.

hatrickpatrick

Jesus Christ, Varadkar

“In the past few days a drip-drip of information may have made certain things seem greater than they are. There was a feeding frenzy, and it became impossible for her to get a fair hearing based on the full facts."

Seriously? The reason it's been a "drip-drip of information" is specifically because she and her department chose not to tell the truth and the entire truth when first asked. Had they disclosed all the information they were in possession of at the time, there would have been no such drip drip.

The arrogance of this guy is astounding. After everything that's happened, he's still going to claim others are to blame and not his own government?

Odhinn

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Jesus Christ, Varadkar



Seriously? The reason it's been a "drip-drip of information" is specifically because she and her department chose not to tell the truth and the entire truth when first asked. Had they disclosed all the information they were in possession of at the time, there would have been no such drip drip.

The arrogance of this guy is astounding. After everything that's happened, he's still going to claim others are to blame and not his own government?

I really find his stance bewildering tbh.

Dinarius

In summary, two grossly dysfunctional organisations (if not grossly corrupt), namely, The Gardai and the Department of Justice, (both generally considered to be joined at the hip) have cost two people, Noirin O'Sullivan and Frances Fitzgerald, their jobs.

1. Should they have lost their jobs? Almost certainly (remembering that one "retired"); they clearly weren't doing what they were supposed to do.

2. But, were their respective organisations allowing them to do their jobs? Almost certainly not.

So, will anything change by their being replaced? Short of root and branch reform, not a hope.

All that has happened is that two heads of the Hydra have been looped off. The Hydra will live on.

D.

nuac

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Winners
Alan Kelly & Howlin
FF
SF
Simon Harris
M Martin
McCabe (the more his "digusting" smear is publicised, the safer he is)


Losers
Fitzgerald
Leo V
Flanagan
Fine Gael
Department of Justice - grossly inept "permanent government"
Coveney
Gardai
Irish political "system"
Charleton Tribunal (compromised)

How does Simon Harris gain from this debacle?

Dinarius

Interesting you see the Gardai as losers.

D.

FrancieBrady

nuac wrote: »

How does Simon Harris gain from this debacle?

He wasn't one of them pushed out to defend the indefensible maybe?

Odhinn

Dinarius wrote: »

Interesting you see the Gardai as losers.

D.

Why?

charlie14

nuac wrote: »

How does Simon Harris gain from this debacle?

I do not know what reason Nettle Soup has for believing that on Harris but for me it would be that he moved up the pecking order for future FG leadership after Coveney surprised me greatly by looking a complete tool last night.
For me the boyo I would see as licking his lips at his chances is Paschal Dohonoe who was quiter than Harris and faik unlike Harris had enough wit not to trot out the party line of Fitzgerald going nowhere as late as this morning.

Dinarius

Odhinn wrote: »

Why?

Because the zero accountability in the Gardai carries on unfettered.

If anything, they're big winners in all this.

D.

yabadabado

Noel Waters ,SG of Dept of Justice stepping down immediately. He was due to retire in the new year but is gone today.

That place must be rotten to the core but **** all will change.

Sierra Oscar

The Secretary General of the Department of Justice has resigned effective immediately.

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/935567154585489408

James Brown

Looks like the wheels are coming off. Looking like more dirt on the way.
Varadkar would want to get on top of this, but I suspect he'll be working on some spin.

Nettle Soup

nuac wrote: »

How does Simon Harris gain from this debacle?

I hardly saw him all week. He kept the head down! Maybe I am wrong but I did not come across him or any utterances from him. He's on 6 news now.

Coveney looked like a fool on Claire Byrne last night. He was sent out to defend her when it was all over.
Buttimer this morning was woeful. He would have been better sending a recorded message to the radio station.

Nettle Soup

I love this "trawl" they did in the DoJ. They keep talking about this trawl even though Leo had the extra damaging emails on Friday.

Did they simply open Fitzgerald's email and do a search on "McCabe"?
Or maybe they simply opened the folder called "Smear".

charlie14

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Donohue was awful in his stuttering faltering defence this morning. It's worth a listen. Morning Ireland I think it was.

If he was at it this morning as well when even FG backbenchers knew the game was well and truly over since yesterday evening, you would seriously question the intelligence of the senior members of this cabinet that had not even the brains to keep their heads down today, or just give a stock answer of "cabinet meeting now, open and frank discussion, I do not want to predict blah blah........later"

ooter

The DOJ is "dysfunctional" according to Simon Harris for needing a trawl to find the other 2 emails but Frances isn't dysfunctional for completely forgetting about them?

Leonard Hofstadter

charlie14 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Donohue was awful in his stuttering faltering defence this morning. It's worth a listen. Morning Ireland I think it was.

If he was at it this morning as well when even FG backbenchers knew the game was well and truly over since yesterday evening, you would seriously question the intelligence of the senior members of this cabinet that had not even the brains to keep their heads down today, or just give a stock answer of "cabinet meeting now, open and frank discussion, I do not want to predict blah blah........later"

It was Buttimer that was on this morning... if you're talking about Morning Ireland that is.

charlie14

ooter wrote: »

The DOJ is "dysfunctional" according to Simon Harris for needing a trawl to find the other 2 emails but Frances isn't dysfunctional for completely forgetting about them?

He strikes me as a lad who would have no difficulty telling his teacher that a dog ate his homework

Nettle Soup

ooter wrote: »

The DOJ is "dysfunctional" according to Simon Harris for needing a trawl to find the other 2 emails but Frances isn't dysfunctional for completely forgetting about them?

Simon would know what dysfunctional is...he is in the most dysfunctional departments of them all.