The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

FrancieBrady

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

That was buttimer I think. He was useless

captainspeed wrote: »

It was Buttimer that was on this morning... if you're talking about Morning Ireland that is.

Yeh, heard Butimer too. Maybe it was on SOR, he was definitely on today.

charlie14

captainspeed wrote: »

It was Buttimer that was on this morning... if you're talking about Morning Ireland that is.

I heard that. He was woeful. Seems Donohoe may have had the sense to keep his head down.
I cannot recall hearing him putting up much of a shift for Fitzgerald.

FrancieBrady

Sorry folks, maybe it was later in the day, it was after the resignation. Still awful though.

snowflaker

As he is a person with a speech impediment I find the comment unnecessary and unfair

FrancieBrady

snowflaker wrote: »

As he is a person with a speech impediment I find the comment unnecessary and unfair

Eh?

charlie14

snowflaker wrote: »

As he is a person with a speech impediment I find the comment unnecessary and unfair

Haris doesn`t have one faik, and I don`t see where anyone referred to Donohoe or anyone else having a speech impediment

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry folks, maybe it was later in the day, it was after the resignation. Still awful though.

If it was the interview where he was going on about "now now I'm not prepared to divulge what was said at the cabinet, but let me just say" waffle, it was post resignation and it was on rte radio 1.

And yes, he came across terribly.

McMurphy

snowflaker wrote: »

As he is a person with a speech impediment I find the comment unnecessary and unfair

No one mentioned his speech impediment

FrancieBrady

Rick Shaw wrote: »

If it was the interview where he was going on about "now now I'm not prepared to divulge what was said at the cabinet, but let me just say" waffle, it was post resignation and it was on rte radio 1.

And yes, he came across terribly.

Yep, that was the one. His heart was just not in it and he kept running out of sentence.

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yep, that was the one. His heart was just not in it and he kept running out of sentence.

Lacked sincerity and integrity in the interview. It was clear as day that he was seething at what went on**.








( **meaning that they got caught btw)

FrancieBrady

Charlie on now
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/watchoireachtastv/

Leonard Hofstadter

charlie14 wrote: »

snowflaker wrote: »

As he is a person with a speech impediment I find the comment unnecessary and unfair

Haris doesn`t have one faik, and I don`t see where anyone referred to Donohoe or anyone else having a speech impediment

It's Simon Coveney who's got the speech impediment.

Edward M

They all speak with "forked tongue".
How!

McMurphy

ooter wrote: »

The DOJ is "dysfunctional" according to Simon Harris for needing a trawl to find the other 2 emails but Frances isn't dysfunctional for completely forgetting about them?

I wonder if Noel Waters statement was in relation to this?

Noel Waters wrote:

"The Department has been subject to a barrage of unwarranted criticism in recent days and most particularly today.

"I want to assure you that, in so far as is humanly possible, this Department has sought at all times to act appropriately, upholding the law and the institutions of the State.

Odhinn

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I wonder if Noel Waters statement was in relation to this?

It's very hard to square that statement in any way shape or form with the conduct highlighted thus far.

charlie14

captainspeed wrote: »

It's Simon Coveney who's got the speech impediment.

He has ? I honestly never noticed.

In fact he is one of that rare breed for me.
A Cork man where I can fully understands what he is saying.

I find the Cork accent in general a killer, but then they probably have the same problem with mine.

McMurphy

Odhinn wrote: »

It's very hard to square that statement in any way shape or form with the conduct highlighted thus far.

Would his retirement excuse him from being compelled to attend any future enquiry?

Odhinn

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Would his retirement excuse him from being compelled to attend any future enquiry?

No idea. There's also the question of what scope an enquiry would have. Considering the open and honest way they're dealing with the current one doesn't give rise to any optimism.

charlie14

That was a clear as mud.

Another Minister for Justice that is told there has been an email found that relates to McCabe who doesn`t ask to see it, ask what it says and apparently his only worry was that it wasn`t at the Disclosures Tribunal.

Obvious Otter

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Would his retirement excuse him from being compelled to attend any future enquiry?

I wouldn’t think so. The fact that he is walking away at this point is very evident. His statement is typical of a civil servant; defend at all costs...

The DoJ are a complete embarrassment to the state a bit like Fine Gael and their defence of Frances. How costly will that prove? Although some woman was on Drive Time defending her this evening; so you never know with the Irish electorate; Michael Lowry is a saint in Tipperary sure!

Water John

Flanagan really having to eat humble pie. Says a trawl, of his dept, ordered by the Taoiseach.
Wallace got in a few good questions. See in the thread a few having a go at Wallace.
Wallace Daly and McGuinness were the 3 who gave McCabe a lifeline.
Yes I think they all still have to appear at the Tribunal. Frances won't fancy having to answer McDowell.

charlie14

Water John wrote: »

Flanagan really having to eat humble pie. Says a trawl, of his dept, ordered by the Taoiseach.
Wallace got in a few good questions. See in the thread a few having a go at Wallace.
Wallace Daly and McGuinness were the 3 who gave McCabe a lifeline.
Yes I think they all still have to appear at the Tribunal. Frances won't fancy having to answer McDowell.

Agreed whether you are a supporter of Wallace and Daly or not, it has to be acknowledged not only did they give McCabe a lifeline, they have also exposed some very dodgy practices.

James Brown

Now we've Flanagan saying he saw the email, but didn't see the significance.
Another Minister not fit for purpose or covering?
It's amusing to see them, (Flanagan and Varadkar) throw the Department under the bus. Essentially saying they've failed as ministers, but passing the buck to the department. I hope it gives rise to some civil servant whistle blowing.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Now we've Flanagan saying he saw the email, but didn't see the significance.
Another Minister not fit for purpose or covering?
It's amusing to see them, (Flanagan and Varadkar) throw the Department under the bus. Essentially saying they've failed as ministers, but passing the buck to the department. I hope it gives rise to some civil servant whistle blowing.

Flanagan wrote:

"I was ... frankly horrified that there were records in the Department of Justice that should have been provided to the Disclosures Tribunal.

"As Minister I have repeatedly emphasised the vital importance of full cooperation by the Department with the Tribunal."

He opened his statement with an apology to Mr Kelly for saying that the Labour TD was engaged in a smear campaign against him and withdrew his remarks.

Mr Flanagan said: "It is only right to acknowledge that Deputy Kelly's parliamentary questions should have been better handled by me."

In other words ' It was them'

Noel Waters wrote:

In a letter to staff, Mr Waters said that many of the claims in the media and in the Dáil about how the department had acted were not true.

He said it was a particularly difficult time for the department, but he was stepping aside entirely of his own volition.

Mr Waters said: "The department has been subject to a barrage of unwarranted criticism in recent days and most particularly today.

"I want to assure you that, in so far as is humanly possible, this department has sought at all times to act appropriately, upholding the law and the institutions of the State.

"Many of the claims about how the department has acted that have been made in the media and in the Dáil are not true, and I am confident that the processes that the Taoiseach has announced will show that to be the case."

In other words, 'No, it was youse'.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1128/923450-flanagan-justice/

charlie14

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Now we've Flanagan saying he saw the email, but didn't see the significance.
Another Minister not fit for purpose or covering?
It's amusing to see them, (Flanagan and Varadkar) throw the Department under the bus. Essentially saying they've failed, but passing the buck. I hope it gives rise to some civil servant whistle blowing.

I thought he said he didn`t see the email.

That he got a phone call in Portlaoise telling him it was found and was related to McCabe, the caller was retiring from the Department which upset him and he never asked to see it, what was in it and just told the caller to send it to Charleton.

FrancieBrady

charlie14 wrote: »

I thought he said he didn`t see the email.

That he got a phone call in Portlaoise telling him it was found and was related to McCabe, the caller was retiring from the Department which upset him and he never asked to see it, what was in it and just told the caller to send it to Charleton.

I can't buy his story at all.

Basically he is saying that somebody came into his kitchen and left something on the kitchen table that may have been a grenade. Even though the somebody bolted for the door he sat calmly at the table and didn't even bother to check if it was a grenade.

James Brown

It's not believable that upon retiring, he found it relevant and important enough to raise in a phone call to the Minister for Justice, who in turn dismissed it, despite the political fall out from the McCabe issue. I can see Flanagan 'retiring'.

At least Kenny had a few funny yarns.

James Brown

charlie14 wrote: »

I thought he said he didn`t see the email.

That he got a phone call in Portlaoise telling him it was found and was related to McCabe, the caller was retiring from the Department which upset him and he never asked to see it, what was in it and just told the caller to send it to Charleton.

Sorry, was told of the contents, had a tea leaf reading?

The Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan has told the Dáil that he "simply the missed the significance" of the May 2015 email about the treatment of Maurice McCabe at the O’Higgins Commission.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

I do not know what reason Nettle Soup has for believing that on Harris but for me it would be that he moved up the pecking order for future FG leadership after Coveney surprised me greatly by looking a complete tool last night.
For me the boyo I would see as licking his lips at his chances is Paschal Dohonoe who was quiter than Harris and faik unlike Harris had enough wit not to trot out the party line of Fitzgerald going nowhere as late as this morning.

I think you are reading this all wrong for the FG leadership.

What did FG TDs learn from this? Varadkar will defend them to the hilt right until the end if he believes they did the right thing - Fitzgerald's words about him demonstrated that. This is in contrast to previous leaders of all parties who would throw their mother under the bus if it suited.

That will stand to Varadkar in the long run.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

I think you are reading this all wrong for the FG leadership.

What did FG TDs learn from this? Varadkar will defend them to the hilt right until the end if he believes they did the right thing - Fitzgerald's words about him demonstrated that. This is in contrast to previous leaders of all parties who would throw their mother under the bus if it suited.

That will stand to Varadkar in the long run.

I think you are completely blue blinkered.

FG grassroots and parliamentary party are furious with Fitzgerald.
Her praising Varadkar is only rubbing salt into the wound reminding them that he had those emails Friday, yet let them all make mugs of themselves, (encouraged them to on fact), until they became public knowledge last night.
To rub even more salt into the wound, they all know Varadkar kept quite about those email in an attempt to play chicken with Martin and lost.

Last night they would not only have thrown her under a bus, they would have turned the bus around and had another go and do not know why Varadkar, knowing what he did Friday, he didn`t do the same then.

Varadkar is seriously damaged goods.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

I think you are completely blue blinkered.

FG grassroots and parliamentary party are furious with Fitzgerald.
Her praising Varadkar is only rubbing salt into the wound reminding them that he had those emails Friday, yet let them all make mugs of themselves, (encouraged them to on fact), until they became public knowledge last night.
To rub even more salt into the wound, they all know Varadkar kept quite about those email in an attempt to play chicken with Martin and lost.

Last night they would not only have thrown her under a bus, they would have turned the bus around and had another go and do not know why Varadkar, knowing what he did Friday, he didn`t do the same then.

Varadkar is seriously damaged goods.

We shall see. You are predicting one future, I am predicting another, only time will tell.

charlie14

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sorry, was told of the contents, had a tea leaf reading?

Amazing how the mention of the name McCabe causes amnesia and blindness in Ministers for Justice.

Surprised they haven`t attempted to smear him as a health hazard seeing as they have tried ever other half brained effort.

Beechwoodspark

Leo is seriously damaged among the FG support -he was never that popular to begin with, they wanted coveney- and the parliamentary party would take or leave him after the last few days

And it's only gonna get worse for him!!

FrancieBrady

charlie14 wrote: »

I think you are completely blue blinkered.

FG grassroots and parliamentary party are furious with Fitzgerald.
Her praising Varadkar is only rubbing salt into the wound reminding them that he had those emails Friday, yet let them all make mugs of themselves, (encouraged them to on fact), until they became public knowledge last night.
To rub even more salt into the wound, they all know Varadkar kept quite about those email in an attempt to play chicken with Martin and lost.

Last night they would not only have thrown her under a bus, they would have turned the bus around and had another go and do not know why Varadkar, knowing what he did Friday, he didn`t do the same then.

Varadkar is seriously damaged goods.

Journalists are referencing it all day. Especially the cabinet meeting this morning.

Mythically party members are all one team, it is never like that in reality.
FG completely shattered the law and order tag this week.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

We shall see. You are predicting one future, I am predicting another, only time will tell.

I predict that Leo will be the shortest reigning FG leader ever, and there'll be a general election in the first half of 2018 where he'll not be returned as the Taoiseach either.

Beechwoodspark

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I predict that Leo will be the shortest reigning FG leader ever, and there'll be a general election in the first half of 2018 where he'll not be returned as the Taoiseach either.

I'd predict it'll be by paddys day

The Rape of Lucretia

Leo playing this even more astutely than I thought.

Going for the longer game. FF holed below the water line in the run into the next election. The cherry on top is that they dont even see it yet. FF out of the running now, and as well as taking so much flack in the run up to an election and during it on the basis they they are a blinkered party politics obsessed group of people unable to work for the greater good of the country, have now written themselves out of a future coallition of any sort.

Quite a masterstroke from Leo, who into the bargain will be seen as the innocent party here, stabbed in the back by opportunists. Not the type of people anybody wants in government.

Interesting to see where those FF seats will split now, with the added freeing up of a good bunch of those currently wasted on independents, meaning there will be an interesting realignment in the coming months. Could a side effect be, a resurgence of Lab ?

And truly audacious from Leo. Interesting times. Interesting times.

charlie14

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I predict that Leo will be the shortest reigning FG leader ever, and there'll be a general election in the first half of 2018 where he'll not be returned as the Taoiseach either.

After this fiasco that would be a bet where you would get very short odds I`d imagine.

Fann Linn

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Leo is seriously damaged among the FG support -he was never that popular to begin with, they wanted coveney- and the parliamentary party would take or leave him after the last few days

And it's only gonna get worse for him!!

All spin and spoof. Plus another adjective which was widely used today; 'inexperienced'.

Consonata

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Quite a masterstroke from Leo, who into the bargain will be seen as the innocent party here, stabbed in the back by opportunists. Not the type of people anybody wants in government.

You really do know how to polish a turd don't you.

Leo's authority has been irreparably damaged after this debacle. The fact that he misinformed the Dáil not once but twice, was not a masterstroke, but either criminal negligence, or complete and utter ineptitude.

The Rape of Lucretia

Consonata wrote: »

You really do know how to polish a turd don't you.

Leo's authority has been irreparably damaged after this debacle. The fact that he misinformed the Dáil not once but twice, was not a masterstroke, but either criminal negligence, or complete and utter ineptitude.

On the face of it, it was a calculated gambit, with an element of risk all right. But FF caught the bait, and he is now sitting very pretty. Fortune favours the brave.

charlie14

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Journalists are referencing it all day. Especially the cabinet meeting this morning.

Mythically party members are all one team, it is never like that in reality.
FG completely shattered the law and order tag this week.

The FG grassroots sector that some here are implying will admire Varadkar for sticking with Fitzgerald as in "my friend, right or wrong", are the same sector that are so proud of FG as the law and order party.

That for them has now been shattered and as he wasn`t there first choice in the first place so has rating certainly gone up with them.

Rubberchikken

In the next general election I'm not going to vote.
First time ever.
But I can't in good conscious vote for a single politician or would be politician.
I despair of this country and those running it.

yabadabado

Hahaha
Anyone who thinks Leo has pulled some masterstroke is deluded.

Consonata

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

On the face of it, it was a calculated gambit, with an element of risk all right. But FF caught the bait, and he is now sitting very pretty. Fortune favours the brave.

So Leo takes a dive in the polls due to incompetence and thats to be seen as fortuitous?

FrancieBrady

Prime Time with two ministers from essentially the same party FFFG on to discuss this. Ridiculous really.

Tell me how

Rubberchikken wrote: »

In the next general election I'm not going to vote.
First time ever.
But I can't in good conscious vote for a single politician or would be politician.
I despair of this country and those running it.

You do know that not voting makes it less likely that things will change because the rabid party followers will always come out.

I intend voting but I will ask any politician who comes to my door to give me a 30 second synopsis of their view of events such as this, Irish water, healthcare, etc.

I will vote based on how they answer.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Prime Time with two ministers from essentially the same party FFFG on to discuss this. Ridiculous really.

They are the only people that matter really, as it will be one of them running the country next time out.

Tell me how

Water John wrote: »

Blanch, your predictions over the last few days have been well off the mark.
Not going to Leopardstown with you.

I think you should but, you know, pick the other horse.

Beechwoodspark

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Leo playing this even more astutely than I thought.

Going for the longer game. FF holed below the water line in the run into the next election. The cherry on top is that they dont even see it yet. FF out of the running now, and as well as taking so much flack in the run up to an election and during it on the basis they they are a blinkered party politics obsessed group of people unable to work for the greater good of the country, have now written themselves out of a future coallition of any sort.

Quite a masterstroke from Leo, who into the bargain will be seen as the innocent party here, stabbed in the back by opportunists. Not the type of people anybody wants in government.

Interesting to see where those FF seats will split now, with the added freeing up of a good bunch of those currently wasted on independents, meaning there will be an interesting realignment in the coming months. Could a side effect be, a resurgence of Lab ?

And truly audacious from Leo. Interesting times. Interesting times.

Load of cobblers

Who the hell thinks Varadkar is the innocent party?

And If you think FF are more damaged than FG over this debacle you are severely disillusioned.