The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

McMurphy

yabadabado wrote: »

Hahaha
Anyone who thinks Leo has pulled some masterstroke is deluded.

The only thing Leo pulled over the last week, knowing what he knew for a whole weekend while he sent his TDs and Ministers out to bat for Frances, is the lever of his own trap door.

As can be seen, FG can be a really devious and downright nasty force to get on the wrong side off.

Apparently knife sharpeners may be the most requested Christmas gift among his peers this year.

The Rape of Lucretia

yabadabado wrote: »

Hahaha
Anyone who thinks Leo has pulled some masterstroke is deluded.

Not at all. There is almost a sense of pity looking at FF this evening not realising their victory is pyrrhic. As the tribunal proceeds, the correctness of everything Fitzgerald did will be appreciated, she will garner sympathy, and Leo and FG come out very well indeed from this whole vicend.
Hard to see how FF will be able to downplay what will be seen as a callous, vicious, and totally unnecessary and unjust attack on one person, and playing chicken on taking the country to an unwanted election. It would seen M Martin is not able to control his own front bench.

Dyr

Jesus I don't normally bother watching prime time but this whole thing has reminded me how godawful RTE are, absolute tripe and they want a broadcasting charge brought in for it

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

They are the only people that matter really, as it will be one of them running the country next time out.

I think that might be a dictatorship you are referencing if all don't have a say.
FG found out today that they can't just do what they want

charlie14

Tell me how wrote: »

You do know that not voting makes it less likely that things will change because the rabid party followers will always come out.

I intend voting but I will ask any politician who comes to my door to give me a 30 second synopsis of their view of events such as this, Irish water, healthcare, etc.

I will vote based on how they answer.

+ 1

markodaly

Good to see more focus on the DOJ. No one can really pin exactly this massive crime that Frances Fitzgerald has done, its all opinion based and subjective. At least now the focus is on the Civil Service who are the guys who run the country.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think that might be a dictatorship you are referencing if all don't have a say.
FG found out today that they can't just do what they want

Dictatorship?

*looks outside the window, sees that its still Dublin, Ireland and its freezing*

No, not a Dictatorship. No one has an automatic right to appear on Primetime.

Tell me how

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Not at all. There is almost a sense of pity looking at FF this evening not realising their victory is pyrrhic. As the tribunal proceeds, the correctness of everything Fitzgerald did will be appreciated, she will garner sympathy, and Leo and FG come out very well indeed from this whole vicend.
Hard to see how FF will be able to downplay what will be seen as a callous, vicious, and totally unnecessary and unjust attack on one person, and playing chicken on taking the country to an unwanted election. It would seen M Martin is not able to control his own front bench.

You could get a job with Fox News with an ability to spin a narrative like that. And like Fox News aficionados, I don't expect any amount of evidence will make you change your mind.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Good to see more focus on the DOJ. No one can really pin exactly this massive crime that Frances Fitzgerald has done, its all opinion based and subjective. At least now the focus is on the Civil Service who are the guys who run the country.

She lied.
And she and her party paid the appropriate price for it.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

She lied.
And she and her party paid the appropriate price for it.

Lied? No, I do not think you know what a lie is. Not even FF and SF say that she lied.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Lied? No, I do not think you know what a lie is. Not even FF and SF say that she lied.

Ah, you want to use the nice FG word for it. She 'misled' the Dail, several times

Leonard Hofstadter

While FitzGearld and Flanagan are far from innocent and clearly are no angels, very serious questions do need to be asked about the Department of Justice - and the Taoiseach and Ministers are dead right to point out their failings as well.

We've had the political accountability but its about time that the Department of Justice needs a monumental root up the posterior. The Secretary General is leaving but there needs to be a massive clear out from top to bottom, they're literally a law into themselves.

FrancieBrady

captainspeed wrote: »

While FitzGearld and Flanagan are far from innocent and clearly are no angels, very serious questions do need to be asked about the Department of Justice - and the Taoiseach and Ministers are dead right to point out their failings as well.

We've had the political accountability but its about time that the Department of Justice needs a smonumental root up the posterior. The Secretary General is leaving but there needs to be a massive clear out from top to bottom, they're literally a law into themselves.

I honestly don't think they have the motivation to do this unless pressure is kept up politically. Charlie Flanagan was impossibly vague on it in the Dail tonight.

FrancieBrady

Pat Rabbite : Like former top Garda and Judges etc always amaze me as to how they have all the solutions in retirement for problems that developed on their watch.

The 'comment' circuit must be a nice wee earner.

Esel

Bring back J Edgar Hoover Peter Berry.

FrancieBrady

Reading between the lines on Ivan Yates show, Alan Kelly is saying he has more stuff.
I think C Flanagan may have set himself up in the Dail tonight.

emo72

jim o callaghan FF and eoghan murphy FG. such plummy accents i havent heard in yonks. irelands finest lads. such great talent help running the country. we should listen to what they say, seriously, and then do the opposite.

Fann Linn

FFailer on TV3 stamping all over Varadkars character and ability this last week.

Nettle Soup

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Reading between the lines on Ivan Yates show, Alan Kelly is saying he has more stuff.
I think C Flanagan may have set himself up in the Dail tonight.

I think there is more to come. Kelly should keep his powder dry until the new year. The damage from today will play out until Christmas in newspapers etc.
Labour might not get wiped out like I expected after the last election. Revenge for Irish Water!

Dyr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Pat Rabbite : Like former top Garda and Judges etc always amaze me as to how they have all the solutions in retirement for problems that developed on their watch.

The 'comment' circuit must be a nice wee earner.

He must be living out in RTE

david75

Someone help me understand this. She resigned today.

But tonight at a FG function she was selected to represent Dublin Mid west as it’s TD??

Hang on.

What??

So now in classic Irish fashion we dont remove the wrong doer. We just move them into a different position. Wtf is wrong with this country??

Stheno

david75 wrote: »

Someone help me understand this. She resigned today.

But tonight at a FG function she was selected to represent Dublin Mid west as it’s TD??

Hang on.

What??

So now in classic Irish fashion we dont remove the wrong doer. We just move them into a different position. Wtf is wrong with this country??

People can choose to elect her?

david75

It goes to show the contempt we’re held once by these parties. She actually thinks after being forced to resign having lied to and mislead the Taoiseach her party and the country, that she’ll be ok to go for election again?
And saps we are she probably will get away with it. This is exactly what’s wrong with Irish politics.

No actual consequences for misconduct. No serious penalty. I’ll just sit it out til the next election, it’ll be grand.


Jesus wept. I thought resigning meant end of career no more politics. Are we really this stupid?


Narrator : yes. They really were that stupid.

McMurphy

Looks like Leo's days are numbered

Fine Gael ministers now criticise 'naive' Varadkar as tensions surface

• Leo Varadkar's authority within Fine Gael severely damaged - according to ministers
• Number of ministers spoke up in defence of Ms Fitzgerald at Cabinet
• He will face TDs and senators at a scheduled private meeting in Leinster House

Leo Varadkar's authority within the Fine Gael party has been severely damaged as a result of his handling of the Frances Fitzgerald affair.

That is according to a significant number of ministers, TDs and party officials who have strongly criticised Mr Varadkar's failure to sack Ms Fitzgerald.
During a bruising day for the Fine Gael leader, Cabinet members and backbenchers openly questioned Mr Varadkar's judgment.

It was the first time such dissent has been seen since Mr Varadkar took over as Taoiseach in the summer.

The disquiet grew on Monday night after the release of the chain of emails by the Department of Justice, which showed Ms Fitzgerald was aware of the Garda strategy to take an "aggressive stance" against Sgt Maurice McCabe.

Cabinet ministers spoke to each other over the phone and via text, and questioned why they had been directed to publicly back Ms Fitzgerald when it was clear her position was becoming untenable.

Then Galway West TD Hildegarde Naughton became the first backbencher to state that she believed Ms Fitzgerald would struggle to remain in situ.

The interview was given to Raidi Gaeltachta ahead of Ms Naughton's selection convention, and was broadcast yesterday morning.

Later on Monday night, Dublin North West TD Noel Rock pulled out of a scheduled TV3 interview because he wasn't happy with the party's stated position.

Despite efforts by the Taoiseach's officials to persuade Mr Rock to go ahead with the appearance and defend Ms Fitzgerald, the young backbencher refused. But from early morning, other deputies discussed the prospect of demanding Ms Fitzgerald's resignation if she did not step aside.

He's finding out it can be lonely at the top.

I just cannot fathom what was he at letting him continue to send his ministers an TDs out to bat for Frances knowing he had possession of the damming emails for a full weekend and he said nothing?

Alan Kelly reckons he has evidence that a lot more questions that need answered by the DOJ on the tonightshow last night.

This isn't over bya long shot.

Edward M

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Looks like Leo's days are numbered

Fine Gael ministers now criticise 'naive' Varadkar as tensions surface


He's finding out it can be lonely at the top.

I just cannot fathom what was he at letting him continue to send his ministers an TDs out to bat for Frances knowing he had possession of the damming emails for a full weekend and he said nothing?

Alan Kelly reckons he has evidence that a lot more questions that need answered by the DOJ on the tonightshow last night.

This isn't over bya long shot.

Yep, he should have stuck to his guns IMO, when he went so far before she resigned. It made him look bad, made FG look bad, she should have been sacked or forced to resign earlier if FG were going to come out of it with any credibility given the way it played out.
Interesting times ahead there I'd say.
I see she's been selected as a candidate again.

FrancieBrady

Edward M wrote: »

Yep, he should have stuck to his guns IMO, when he went so far before she resigned. It made him look bad, made FG look bad, she should have been sacked or forced to resign earlier if FG were going to come out of it with any credibility given the way it played out.
Interesting times ahead there I'd say.
I see she's been selected as a candidate again.

The work Fitzgerald did in her constituency is not going to be forgotten overnight. That is how our system works, and I wouldn't be critical of the electorate for who they elect in any way at all.
Behind every TD is a lot of local work, and that is no bad thing imo.
It can throw up colourful characters but so what?
There are those who would want you to be embarrassed about that, but it it the same the world over.

I think too that Leo managed this thing all wrong. His emphasis and language seemed to be on his 'image' more than anything else.
He should have said very little from the get go and played a wait and see game.
He damaged himself trying to play to the gallery.

recedite

Stheno wrote: »

People can choose to elect her?

And even if they don't, she can stand for the Seanad, and if they refuse to elect her, she would probably still end up as Taoiseach's nomination to the Seanad.
And there's the Ministerial and TD pensions. So I wouldn't feel too sorry for her.
Its still a demotion though, so some accountability has been achieved.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

Who is the FG person on SO'R at the moment, still toeing the party line that "she did nothing wrong".

FrancieBrady

Leroy Fit Gunpoint wrote: »

Assume this has been re-opened.

Who is the FG person on SO'R at the moment, still toeing the party line that "she did nothing wrong".

Helen McEntee I think

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

SO'R is being quite strong with her, telling her she's stonewalling etc.

Won't say yes or no to whether or not she thinks FF should have resigned.

Helen McEntee is the absolute head off Lucinda.

FrancieBrady

Leroy Fit Gunpoint wrote: »

SO'R is being quite strong with her, telling her she's stonewalling etc.

Won't say yes or no to whether or not she thinks FF should have resigned.

Helen McEntee is the absolute head off Lucinda.

I think FG will do more damage to themselves maintaining the arrogant 'we did nothing wrong stance'.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think FG will do more damage to themselves maintaining the arrogant 'we did nothing wrong stance'.

You may well be right that FG will do more damage to themselves, but that doesn't mean they did do anything wrong.

Unfortunately for them, the Tribunal will take too long to answer that question. Look at Alan Shatter, winning case after case to show he was wronged, but you won't see anyone apologising to him. You won't see the posters on here who castigated him week after week admitting they were wrong. You won't see the journalists who wrote story after story admitting they were wrong.

When it comes down to it, politics in Ireland is increasingly about perception, not reality, and certainly not substance. Those of us who forget that, and just focus on the issues, end up getting things wrong.

Chips Lovell

Hi folks,
Please pay heed to the charter, especially:

Allegations of lying are taken very seriously. Simply calling someone a liar is not acceptable without proof, the onus is on you to provide the proof that they are deliberately and intentionally trying to deceive.

Plenty of scope to discuss the issues while sticking to the established facts.

Thanks

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You may well be right that FG will do more damage to themselves, but that doesn't mean they did do anything wrong.

Unfortunately for them, the Tribunal will take too long to answer that question. Look at Alan Shatter, winning case after case to show he was wronged, but you won't see anyone apologising to him. You won't see the posters on here who castigated him week after week admitting they were wrong. You won't see the journalists who wrote story after story admitting they were wrong.

When it comes down to it, politics in Ireland is increasingly about perception, not reality, and certainly not substance. Those of us who forget that, and just focus on the issues, end up getting things wrong.

Alan Shatter is a separate case and does not mean all other cases connected to this are the same.
Trying to put that perception out there as a defence of what happened with Fitzgerald is totally and unequivocally wrong.

What happened in the Dail and how FG responded was wrong. And always will be. The Tribunal will not vindicate them on that because the Tribunal has no remit when it comes to misleading the Dail.

George Sunsnow

The question is being posed incorrectly
What SoR and other media people should be asking Francis should be ‘Is their something Right that you didn’t do?’

There was nothing stopping her coming into the Dáil and using privilege to inform the house what she was told about Garda counsel strategy and looking to the legislators for guidance
Peeled back,the Dáil is the ultimate power

StringerBell

The narrative has shifted a little now, or at least can be shifted with some spin. It was the old man Martin, entrenched in a tarnished party and system and the face of new politics, young vibrant and good in front of a camera Varadakar.

Now it can be spun (due to completely his own actions) the inexperienced, poor judgement politically Leo and the experienced statesmanlike Micheal.

That will certainly be a discussion point when the election does come. A real own goal by Leo in his handling of this.

FrancieBrady

George Sunsnow wrote: »

The question is being posed incorrectly
What SoR and other media people should be asking Francis should be ‘Is their something Right that you didn’t do?’

There was nothing stopping her coming into the Dáil and using privilege to inform the house what she was told about Garda counsel strategy and looking to the legislators for guidance
Peeled back,the Dáil is the ultimate power

It's completely wrong to allow her resignation to be about - what she should or should not have done on receipt of the emails - that is important and will be dealt with by the tribunal.

The reason her position became untenable was different though.
She misled the Dail, and the release of other emails was the critical point because it proved conclusively to even the FG/Ind cabinet that she had misled the Dail and had to go.
She has every right to vindicate herself on the other charges in the Tribunal.

however the Tribunal will NOT adjudicate on what caused her to lose her job as Tainisté

Tell me how

StringerBell wrote:

That will certainly be a discussion point when the election does come. A real own goal by Leo in his handling of this.

Agree. FF big winners in this. They can say come election they didn't want to walk out but had to threaten it to force Leo to act, which he didn't do. They can say they were shocked she didn't go 4-5 days earlier. They can align themselves with the person answering the door saying they too were looking on in shock.

Expect continuous b*tching between the parties between now and when we do actually have it.

FrancieBrady

Tell me how wrote: »

Agree. FF big winners in this. They can say come election they didn't want to walk out but had to threaten it to force Leo to act, which he didn't do. They can say they were shocked she didn't go 4-5 days earlier. They can align themselves with the person answering the door saying they too were looking on in shock.

Expect continuous b*tching between the parties between now and when we do actually have it.

Might be a bit early to call that one: I think it will all hinge on how the Charlie Flanagan issue pans out.
Dara Calleary's defence and praise of him (Flanagan) was way too premature imo and sounded totally choreographed/agreed on in whatever sweetheart deal was worked out to keep the C&S agreement on track.

Might go against them yet.

George Sunsnow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's completely wrong to allow her resignation to be about - what she should or should not have done on receipt of the emails - that is important and will be dealt with by the tribunal.

The reason her position became untenable was different though.
She misled the Dail, and the release of other emails was the critical point because it proved conclusively to even the FG/Ind cabinet that she had misled the Dail and had to go.
She has every right to vindicate herself on the other charges in the Tribunal.

however the Tribunal will NOT adjudicate on what caused her to lose her job as Tainisté

I don’t agree.
What she should have done is at the heart of what she has done wrong ever since
She allowed unaccountable civil servants to guide her and ultimately in partnership with her own bad judgement guide her instead of coming to the Dáil with this advice where she would be quickly told what to do with it
We won’t know for decades whether she brought it to cabinet

FrancieBrady

George Sunsnow wrote: »

I don’t agree.
What she should have done is at the heart of what she has done wrong ever since
She allowed unaccountable civil servants to guide her and ultimately in partnership with her own bad judgement guide her instead of coming to the Dáil with this advice where she would be quickly told what to do with it
We won’t know for decades whether she brought it to cabinet

That's a separate issue to why she is out of a job though George.

George Sunsnow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's a separate issue to why she is out of a job though George.

It’s actually the birthing of it
One good thing that may come out of this is the bubble that appears to be the DoJ will be given a toe up the hole

yabadabado

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Helen McEntee I think

No surprises there.Misguided in everything she gets involved in.

FrancieBrady

George Sunsnow wrote: »

It’s actually the birthing of it
One good thing that may come out of this is the bubble that appears to be the DoJ will be given a toe up the hole

Yes it is the 'birthing' of the motions of no confidence.

But do not get conned by the spin now being engaged in by FG TD's and ministers.

The motions were down for debate and a vote, but that never happened.

What happened was that FG and The Tainisté said adamantly that she had done nothing wrong on reciept of the emails, which is fine and something that the Tribunal will adjudicate on.

What changed things and made her position untenable was the release of the 'trawled' emails which clearly showed she had misled the Dáil.
Quite simply, the Taoiseach and the Cabinet changed their respective positions when they were released and she tendered her resignation,

The Taoiseach: Had said he would not look for her resignation or accept it.
The Cabinet: Supported her and the Taoiseach's stance.


Now, if you say her resignation was about what she should have done on receipt of the emails, then it seems to me that the Taoiseach accepts that she did something wrong and so does she, by resigning.

Leonard Hofstadter

The other thing we need to think about is the 8th amendment referendum. Most FF and FG voters won't be in favour of change along with some independent voters (unless it's quite minor). That's going to be very divisive and those parties in particular are not going to want to face the electorate for quite some time after that's over.

So the closer and closer we get to that referendum the more likely it is that we won't have an election until 2019. I reckon if this Government survives until February/March it's good to go for another year at least, and by that stage we'll have long forgotten about this saga and the election will be about bread and butter issues once more.

FG and Varadkar are unquestionably damaged by this, there's no denying that. But it would be foolish to write this Government off just yet. Until we got those batch of emails on Monday night it was advantage Fine Gael (in so far as FG would have been successfully able to blame FF for causing the election nobody wants) and FF were very divided as well on their approach.

We're going to see a lot of 'leaks' by 'angry' FG TDs etc over the next few days partly to let off steam but also to show the public that they're not all completely stupid. They'll get back into line as this controversy fades away.

George Sunsnow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Now, if you say her resignation was about what she should have done on receipt of the emails, then it seems to me that the Taoiseach accepts that she did something wrong and so does she, by resigning.

I seem to have been elevated to Taoiseach

I think Leo knows full well that she could have shared the information from the emails with the house when she got them,has any TD asked him yet in the Dáil?
My point is yes that her not doing so was the birthing of the whole timeline of her mistakes thereafter
But essentially the reason I’ve turned against her is that I simply don’t believe someone in that high an office should be so ill judging as to not realise that the initial investigation should not be court of law hostile if you want to foster whistle blowers
It’s for the tribunal to make a finding of fact as to whether she lied about it

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Might be a bit early to call that one: I think it will all hinge on how the Charlie Flanagan issue pans out.
Dara Calleary's defence and praise of him (Flanagan) was way too premature imo and sounded totally choreographed/agreed on in whatever sweetheart deal was worked out to keep the C&S agreement on track.

Might go against them yet.

Was thinking the same thing when I heard him this morning. May be an opportune time for Kelly to throw another spanner in the works.

Nettle Soup

captainspeed wrote: »

FG and Varadkar are unquestionably damaged by this, there's no denying that. But it would be foolish to write this Government off just yet. Until we got those batch of emails on Monday night it was advantage Fine Gael (in so far as FG would have been successfully able to blame FF for causing the election nobody wants) and FF were very divided as well on their approach.

What I cant understand is that when Leo asked for a "trawl" of the DoJ records both Fitzgerald and Flanagan knew that he was going to find more emails. Why did they let that happen? Why didn't they tell the truth to Leo even just to warn him?

flutered

Fann Linn wrote: »

Was thinking the same thing when I heard him this morning. May be an opportune time for Kelly to throw another spanner in the works.

i recon that he has more ammunition, when will he fire it, did wallace say yesterday that he has some also

George Sunsnow

Nettle Soup wrote: »

What I cant understand is that when Leo asked for a "trawl" of the DoJ records both Fitzgerald and Flanagan knew that he was going to find more emails. Why did they let that happen? Why didn't they tell the truth to Leo even just to warn him?

Thing is you or I don’t know what was said behind closed doors ,so any assumptions as to what was talked about are exactly that,only assumptions
We are also only in a position to assume what anybody knew

The Taoiseach is the ministers boss ,he had the power to order the trawl

Ultimately the tribunals sworn evidence will shed some light
I was prepared to accept the ‘forgot’ story until more emails and what was in them appeared even though thinking about it afterwards in conjunction it was woefull misjudgment
Who knows what my opinion will be after the tribunal or yours