The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

bladespin

Tell me how wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually here that Enda knew about them.

I'd bet Calinan had him fully updated, thankfully both are history now though.

McMurphy

As I was saying before.

I still believe there is much more to keep emerging from this.

You'd have to wonder what the rationale was behind this, I (wrongly) assumed the first email accounts to be trawled would be the very same accounts that were omitted?

Email trawl for Charleton Tribunal omitted Frances Fitzgerald

The email accounts of former minister for justice Frances Fitzgerald and her political advisers were not examined in the recent trawl for documents relevant to the Charleton Tribunal

The development comes as the Department of Justice was yesterday swayed at the Oireachtas Justice Committee into asking the Charleton Tribunal if it wanted the department to conduct a widespread trawl to unearth remaining paper documentation and to extend searches to include private emails and mobile phones.

A response by Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan to a parliamentary question from Social Democrats joint leader Roisin Shortall confirmed that the trawl last month of department emails revealing details of the former garda commissioner’s legal strategy against whistleblower Sergeant Maurice McCabe did not include Ms Fitzgerald’s accounts.

“While the email accounts of the then tiste and minister for justice and equality and her advisers were not specifically examined as part of the recent trawl for documents, I can confirm that the email accounts of officials working in relevant areas of the department were searched and that this exercise would, of course, encompass emails sent from or to the then minister and her advisers on any such matters,” the minister replied.

Wut

Water John

You really avoid looking where something you don't want to find, might be.
Civil Service policy.

Tony EH

Rick Shaw wrote: »

As I was saying before.

I still believe there is much more to keep emerging from this.

You'd have to wonder what the rationale was behind this, I (wrongly) assumed the first email accounts to be trawled would be the very same accounts that were omitted?

Email trawl for Charleton Tribunal omitted Frances Fitzgerald

The email accounts of former minister for justice Frances Fitzgerald and her political advisers were not examined in the recent trawl for documents relevant to the Charleton Tribunal

The development comes as the Department of Justice was yesterday swayed at the Oireachtas Justice Committee into asking the Charleton Tribunal if it wanted the department to conduct a widespread trawl to unearth remaining paper documentation and to extend searches to include private emails and mobile phones.

A response by Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan to a parliamentary question from Social Democrats joint leader Roisin Shortall confirmed that the trawl last month of department emails revealing details of the former garda commissioner’s legal strategy against whistleblower Sergeant Maurice McCabe did not include Ms Fitzgerald’s accounts.

“While the email accounts of the then tiste and minister for justice and equality and her advisers were not specifically examined as part of the recent trawl for documents, I can confirm that the email accounts of officials working in relevant areas of the department were searched and that this exercise would, of course, encompass emails sent from or to the then minister and her advisers on any such matters,” the minister replied.

Wut

Maybe they were "forgotten" as well?

Yellow River

I totally agree with comment above about Varadkar being exposed as a weak leader by all of this. Appointing Coveney (the man who wants his job) as his deputy! He should have appointed Coveney as our Ambassador to Kurdistan and insist he live there also.

FrancieBrady

Once the Brexit stuff dies down, this is still a very slippy banana skin for the Gov.

Tony EH

What's the spin for this latest round of forgetfulness?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Once the Brexit stuff dies down, this is still a very slippy banana skin for the Gov.

Don't think so, Fitzgerald is gone now.

Look at Shatter, keeps winning court cases and Tribunals to demonstrate that he did no wrong. Public hardly notice.

When it comes to the Tribunal two things are possible. Firstly, Fitzgerald is found to have done wrong (unlikely imo) and Varadkar says I dealt with that, time to focus on important things like Brexit. Public nods and continues on without thinking again about it. (of course a few outraged internet warriors will continue the fight on twitter and elsewhere).

Secondly, Fitzgerald is found to have done nothing wrong other than forgetting one or two of thousands of emails. Unless Varadkar decides to bring her back, that will also be ignored by the public ala Shatter.

It really is hard to see where there is any more political capital in any of this.

Bass Reeves

Yellow River wrote: »

I totally agree with comment above about Varadkar being exposed as a weak leader by all of this. Appointing Coveney (the man who wants his job) as his deputy! He should have appointed Coveney as our Ambassador to Kurdistan and insist he live there also.

Ya Varadkar weak leader Ya FG up in the polls pure debacle SF and FF down in the polls very sucessful for them.

Who else was he supposed to appoint as Tainste, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

George Sunsnow

Yellow River wrote: »

I totally agree with comment above about Varadkar being exposed as a weak leader by all of this. Appointing Coveney (the man who wants his job) as his deputy! He should have appointed Coveney as our Ambassador to Kurdistan and insist he live there also.

If you think that you really have no understanding of internal Fine Gael politics at all

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't think so, Fitzgerald is gone now.

Look at Shatter, keeps winning court cases and Tribunals to demonstrate that he did no wrong. Public hardly notice.

When it comes to the Tribunal two things are possible. Firstly, Fitzgerald is found to have done wrong (unlikely imo) and Varadkar says I dealt with that, time to focus on important things like Brexit. Public nods and continues on without thinking again about it. (of course a few outraged internet warriors will continue the fight on twitter and elsewhere).

Secondly, Fitzgerald is found to have done nothing wrong other than forgetting one or two of thousands of emails. Unless Varadkar decides to bring her back, that will also be ignored by the public ala Shatter.

It really is hard to see where there is any more political capital in any of this.

Regardless of the nonsense about what the public is interested in or not interested in: Varadkar has lost his Tánaiste and is clearly not in control of the DoJ.
Will he pay a further 'political' price for that? Yes, I think he will.

If he keeps losing Ministers the public will notice.

Nekarsulm

Friends close, enemies closer.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Regardless of the nonsense about what the public is interested in or not interested in: Varadkar has lost his Tánaiste and is clearly not in control of the DoJ.
Will he pay a further 'political' price for that? Yes, I think he will.

If he keeps losing Ministers the public will notice.

Well, if Fitzgerald is found to have done nothing wrong by a Tribunal, it gets interesting. If FF/SF/Ind for change subsequently make a move against another Minister, and there is a similar situation whereby Leo can make a case for innocence, he can call their bluff citing the Fitzgerald precedence (and Shatter) pointing out that you can't govern where innocent Ministers are being gotten rid of for political reasons.

The public will notice, but it may be the irresponsible behaviour of the opposition that they notice. The long game on this one is interesting.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, if Fitzgerald is found to have done nothing wrong by a Tribunal, it gets interesting. If FF/SF/Ind for change subsequently make a move against another Minister, and there is a similar situation whereby Leo can make a case for innocence, he can call their bluff citing the Fitzgerald precedence (and Shatter) pointing out that you can't govern where innocent Ministers are being gotten rid of for political reasons.

The public will notice, but it may be the irresponsible behaviour of the opposition that they notice. The long game on this one is interesting.

Look, Fitzgerald is gone because she misled the Dáil. That happened, there is no glossing over it.

If, and it a most definite if, the Tribunal acquits her of doing wrong in relation to the contents of the emails, that has nothing to do with why she is no longer Tánaiste. The Tribunal will not absolve her of misleading the Dáil.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Look, Fitzgerald is gone because she misled the Dáil. That happened, there is no glossing over it.

If, and it a most definite if, the Tribunal acquits her of doing wrong in relation to the contents of the emails, that has nothing to do with why she is no longer Tánaiste. The Tribunal will not absolve her of misleading the Dáil.

That detail won't be remembered if she is exonerated by the Tribunal. The public will only see the innocent finding. Varadkar will be all over that using it in the Dail against his critics.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That detail won't be remembered if she is exonerated by the Tribunal. The public will only see the innocent finding. Varadkar will be all over that using it in the Dail against his critics.

And he will be reminded why she is gone.

The Tribunal won't issue findings for a long time. There is a lot of water still waiting to go under the bridge over this.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And he will be reminded why she is gone.

The Tribunal won't issue findings for a long time. There is a lot of water still waiting to go under the bridge over this.

The Tribunal has already issued findings on Garda Keith Harrison and it is my understanding that it has been asked to deal next with the question of Fitzgerald and the DOJ co-operation. Would expect a report by early autumn at the latest and possibly even before the Dail breaks up for the summer.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The Tribunal has already issued findings on Garda Keith Harrison and it is my understanding that it has been asked to deal next with the question of Fitzgerald and the DOJ co-operation. Would expect a report by early autumn at the latest and possibly even before the Dail breaks up for the summer.

As we have seen, a week can be a very very long time in politics.

Interesting that you are happy enough with what all this 'appears' to be rather than what it is.
Image is everything, power at all costs?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As we have seen, a week can be a very very long time in politics.

Interesting that you are happy enough with what all this 'appears' to be rather than what it is.
Image is everything, power at all costs?

I am sorry if my view of what is likely to happen is upsetting you.

However, how I see the world and how I see things playing out is different to how I might want them to be or to play out.

So please point me to where I said I was "happy enough" with any of this.

George Sunsnow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

and is clearly not in control of the DoJ.

Full agreement from me there
Was anybody ever?
A W-I-P to be honest

If he keeps losing Ministers the public will notice.

How’s he going to lose more?
He’s only lost one and she’s bravely put her self forward for re-election (sadomasochism if you ask me at 67)

Ass’s well covered at this stage with the email thrawl
All that remains is the tribunals opinion

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I am sorry if my view of what is likely to happen is upsetting you.

However, how I see the world and how I see things playing out is different to how I might want them to be or to play out.

So please point me to where I said I was "happy enough" with any of this.

Forgive me as portraying you as 'happy', but you seem to think that the public not seeing that the reason she is gone is because she mislead the Dáil as a good thing for the government. I can't see you as being anything else but happy tbh.
Do tell us how you really feel though.

McMurphy

Has anyone any idea why Fitzgeralds email account wasn't trawled?

I'm seeing whataboutery ref shatter and Keith Harrison, but very little about the failure to search somewhere you would have assumed would have been the first place they'd have searched?

Think of it this way, if the security guard in Tesco suspects someone of shoplifting, the first place I would expect the security guard to search for concealed goods would be where?

I wonder if shredders work on servers and hard drives.

FrancieBrady

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Full agreement from me there
Was anybody ever?
A W-I-P to be honest



How’s he going to lose more?
He’s only lost one and she’s bravely put her self forward for re-election (sadomasochism if you ask me at 67)

Ass’s well covered at this stage with the email thrawl
All that remains is the tribunals opinion

I don't think Alan Kelly is finished, by a long shot.
As I said, a week can be a very very long time in politics.

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think Alan Kelly is finished, by a long shot.
As I said, a week can be a very very long time in politics.

Kelly is calling for Fitzgeralds emails and phones to be trawled.

Kelly implied he had more to come when he was on ivan Yates show last week.

Hitman3000

Rick Shaw wrote:

I'm seeing whataboutery ref shatter and Keith Harrison, but very little about the failure to search somewhere you would have assumed would have been the first place they'd have searched?

Some are claiming Shatter was exonerated by virtue of his wins in court, convienently ignoring he shared confidential information about a political rival to score points on the national boardcaster. This alone made him unfit for office. As for Harrison his claims were fast tracked because of his insistence of similar treatment to McCabe. There still is a whistle blower from Athlone that has to give evidence. I'm not going to speak about Harrison other than to say I lived where he served. The TD's that stood by him acted in good faith.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Some are claiming Shatter was exonerated by virtue of his wins in court, convienently ignoring he shared confidential information about a political rival to score points on the national boardcaster. This alone made him unfit for office. As for Harrison his claims were fast tracked because of his insistence of similar treatment to McCabe. There still is a whistle blower from Athlone that has to give evidence. I'm not going to speak about Harrison other than to say I lived where he served. The TD's that stood by him acted in good faith.

There are serious questions for those TDs to answer, and notwithstanding whether or not they acted in good faith, they owe a number of apologies to the Gardai they unfairly maligned in their contributions in the Dail, all of whom have been exonerated by the Tribunal with many of them receiving praise.

An absolute disgrace that those TDs haven't apologised.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

There are serious questions for those TDs to answer, and notwithstanding whether or not they acted in good faith, they owe a number of apologies to the Gardai they unfairly maligned in their contributions in the Dail, all of whom have been exonerated by the Tribunal with many of them receiving praise.

They have nothing to apologise for, I'm curious do you find it strange as to why no whistle blower approached a FG TD?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Forgive me as portraying you as 'happy', but you seem to think that the public not seeing that the reason she is gone is because she mislead the Dáil as a good thing for the government. I can't see you as being anything else but happy tbh.
Do tell us how you really feel though.

You have told us on a number of occasions that you are neither a Sinn Fein supporter, voter or member, even though you have never posted a single word of criticism of Sinn Fein, yet you are portraying me as being the same as the government and being happy just because the government are happy.

This is despite me having been highly critical of the government for backing down on water charges and for their lack of action on climate change issues. I would also be critical of the lack of capital spending, particularly on public transport. Only today, over in the Brexit thread, I am critical of their spin on the Brexit deal.

Yes, I believe for the most part that FG in government for the last six years have been doing a good job, and a better job than either SF or FF would have done, yet I have and will criticise them where and when I feel it appropriate. Even then, despite the general support for their approach, I won't give them my number one if there is an election tomorrow.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

An absolute disgrace that those TDs haven't apologised.

You seem to be the only one saying this. Haven't heard commentary from anyone else in this vein.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

They have nothing to apologise for, I'm curious do you find it strange as to why no whistle blower approached a FG TD?

Any half-decent TD should have seen through Keith Harrison straight away, it didn't take long for the Tribunal to see what a chancer he was.

There were many good people in the Gardai unfairly pilloried and criticised in the Dail over their treatment of Garda Harrison. The Tribunal found them to have acted honourably at all times, and they deserve the same praise as the likes of Garda McCabe for having continued to act honourably despite the pressure from outside.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Any half-decent TD should have seen through Keith Harrison straight away,

Care to back this up? What particular investigative skills has a TD got that would allow them see through Harrison straight away? Have you noticed the polls that show the level of public trust in AGS why do you presume a TD would not share the same trust?

FrancieBrady

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You seem to be the only one saying this. Haven't heard commentary from anyone else in this vein.

It is akin to asking barristers or solicitors to apologise after a trial.

The Dáil is there for these conversations to take place. Anyone can stand up and say what they like about other party's and deputy's and take issues on behalf of the public to the floor for discussion.
To get huffy over one incidence of this taking place is just agenda ridden deflection.

charlie14

Rick Shaw wrote: »

As I was saying before.

I still believe there is much more to keep emerging from this.

You'd have to wonder what the rationale was behind this, I (wrongly) assumed the first email accounts to be trawled would be the very same accounts that were omitted?

Email trawl for Charleton Tribunal omitted Frances Fitzgerald




Wut

"The email accounts of former minister for justice Frances Fitzgerald and her political advisers were not examined in the recent trawl for documents relevant to the Charleton Tribunal"

That doesn`t say much for the line we were being spun by FG and some here off this tribunal being the be all and end all when it came to getting to the core of this issue now does it.:rolleyes:
The Charleton Tribunal is looking more of a farce daily.

Hitman3000

charlie14 wrote:

That doesn`t say much for the line we were being spun by FG and some here off this tribunal being the be all and end all when it came to getting to the core of this issue now does it. The Charleton Tribunal is looking more of a farce daily.

The Charleton Tribunal is a waste of time now. How can anyone trust full information was given now that we know certain information was withheld.

McMurphy

charlie14 wrote: »

"The email accounts of former minister for justice Frances Fitzgerald and her political advisers were not examined in the recent trawl for documents relevant to the Charleton Tribunal"

That doesn`t say much for the line we were being spun by FG and some here off this tribunal being the be all and end all when it came to getting to the core of this issue now does it.:rolleyes:
The Charleton Tribunal is looking more of a farce daily.

A sceptical person might assume it's that they were avoiding the chance of unearthing some direct contact between relevant key players.

You don't look somewhere you're most likely to find it, if you don't actually want to find it.

FrancieBrady

As said in the other thread. It is completely compromised until the government gets control of the DoJ.

Needs to pause until that happens.

charlie14

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The Charleton Tribunal is a waste of time now. How can anyone trust full information was given now that we know certain information was withheld.

Not just now.
It became obvious it was a waste of time when we first learned that information had been withheld.
That didn`t stop FG and others here attempting to spin the line that it was the only show in town in to getting to the bottom of all this though.
It was nothing more than an attempt at burying the whole issue imo.

Bass Reeves

Hitman3000 wrote: »

They have nothing to apologise for, I'm curious do you find it strange as to why no whistle blower approached a FG TD?

For the simple reason they are the party in power. Just like Alan Kelly would not have been approched when Labour were in power. A backbencher in a government part could not bring up this in the dail as they would not have speaking time. Alan Kelly was chosen this time previous it was Mick Wallace and Claire Daly.

TBH this is now becoming a non event. Both FF and FG would be quite happy to call an election. However neither want to be the part blamed for it. SF at present until the coronation of Mary( especially because of the day that is in it) Lou next year. So there will be no rush to push this further for the monment.

The knives are being sharpened for an election next year the trick for the main parties is to find someone else to blame rather than themselves

Hitman3000

Bass Reeves wrote:

For the simple reason they are the party in power. Just like Alan Kelly would not have been approched when Labour were in power. A backbencher in a government part could not bring up this in the dail as they would not have speaking time. Alan Kelly was chosen this time previous it was Mick Wallace and Claire Daly.

A back bencher could forward on the info to the relevant minister. Personally I don't think people trust either FG/FF to act in an honourable manner.
Kelly is a different matter, I believe he is revenge driven and positioning himself for a less nail biting re-election.

Nettle Soup

I think the Minister/Garda/DoJ scandal has done huge damage to FG. Talking to friends and colleagues, people are in no doubt now that FG = FF.
It's one thing for FG to follow FF/Troika policies since 2011, it's quite another thing to mimic FF in terms of corruption and the character assassination of Sgt Maurice McCabe.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't think so, Fitzgerald is gone now.

Look at Shatter, keeps winning court cases and Tribunals to demonstrate that he did no wrong. Public hardly notice.

When it comes to the Tribunal two things are possible. Firstly, Fitzgerald is found to have done wrong (unlikely imo) and Varadkar says I dealt with that, time to focus on important things like Brexit. Public nods and continues on without thinking again about it. (of course a few outraged internet warriors will continue the fight on twitter and elsewhere).

Secondly, Fitzgerald is found to have done nothing wrong other than forgetting one or two of thousands of emails. Unless Varadkar decides to bring her back, that will also be ignored by the public ala Shatter.

It really is hard to see where there is any more political capital in any of this.

So because not much might come of it we should be content to move along leaving poor leadership in a department that Varadkar himself believes isn't fit for purpose and forget, lest some anon internet warrior call us internet warriors or whingers? That's the kind of attitude has us stuck with the quality and caliber of public representative and state bodies we say, 'they're bad but the others are worse' come election time with excuses like 'better the devil you know' 'best of a bad lot'. Why not actually fix problems and hold folks to account rather than slip it under the carpet to save the party's blushes? Is the important thing we forget about it, only for it to fester further and surface down the road or actually achieve something?
Thanks to 'whingers' like McCabe we may see some progress.

blanch152 wrote: »

That detail won't be remembered if she is exonerated by the Tribunal. The public will only see the innocent finding. Varadkar will be all over that using it in the Dail against his critics.

Varadkar, Fitzgerald and others have tarnished an already damaged sense of accountability and justice with the public. At best for Fine Gael Varadkar will win some political/PR points and we'll all move on and have achieved no progress. At best for the country, Varadkar and Fine Gael show some integrity and tackle the Garda corruption issue like a political party in government and not a private members club only interested in 'winning' at politics.
The public seem to vote for steady. Crony, incompetent, but 'steady'. Fitzgerald fooled nobody and Varadkar is a salesman. A time might come when more and more people get fed up, with the low quality of 'steady'.

Hitman3000

Matt Barrett wrote:

A time might come when more and more people get fed up, with the low quality of 'steady'.

It already seems to be happening. The 2 largest parties in the state according to a recent poll disregarding the margin of error command 51% of the electorate's vote. A long way down from the heady days of over 70%

James Brown

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It already seems to be happening. The 2 largest parties in the state according to a recent poll disregarding the margin of error command 51% of the electorate's vote. A long way down from the heady days of over 70%

It hopefully gets to a point where FF/FG stop codding the public. Being a political cute hoor is entertaining and all and you might get one over on the opposition with a sly wink, but cast a thought to the country once in a while. The legacy for many of these people will be, 'I put the party first'. Well done lads and ladies.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It already seems to be happening. The 2 largest parties in the state according to a recent poll disregarding the margin of error command 51% of the electorate's vote. A long way down from the heady days of over 70%

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/poll

65% for the three traditional parties (FF, FG and Labour) in the most recent poll. When you consider 16% for independents would include gene pool independents like the Healy-Raes, they are as close to 70% as they ever were.

Mr.Micro

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It hopefully gets to a point where FF/FG stop codding the public. Being a political cute hoor is entertaining and all and you might get one over on the opposition with a sly wink, but cast a thought to the country once in a while. The legacy for many of these people will be, 'I put the party first'. Well done lads and ladies.

Neither has the stomach or the courage to deal with the DoJ and An Garda. Fear of what the latter might invent? It's a terrible state of affairs. If the Brexit deal goes through to most people's satisfaction, then Leo et al will claim and get the credit, a boost for FG?

James Brown

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Neither has the stomach or the courage to deal with the DoJ and An Garda. Fear of what the latter might invent? It's a terrible state of affairs. If the Brexit deal goes through to most people's satisfaction, then Leo et al will claim and get the credit, a boost for FG?

Probably.
It really does seem to be FF and FG taking turns at making a few bob with a nod to placating the tax payers and their imagined deep pockets.
I wonder do some of these people believe their own spin? We go around in circles it seems resigning and retiring politicians who don't achieve anything that can't be undone by a few crony deals and appointments.

Hitman3000

I mentioned the 2 largest parties and the % they traditionally enjoyed. As for your comment I have no idea what you are trying to convey.

Edit. I gave the wrong figure for FF and FG 61% As opposed to 51%. It seems minority government is here for the foreseeable future unless FF/FG drop the pretence.

charlie14

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Neither has the stomach or the courage to deal with the DoJ and An Garda. Fear of what the latter might invent? It's a terrible state of affairs. If the Brexit deal goes through to most people's satisfaction, then Leo et al will claim and get the credit, a boost for FG?

With all and sundry claiming victory on the border Brexit issue, it is difficult to know if there will be any credit to claim at this stage.

Britain, including NI, are still adamant that they will leave the customs union and the single market, so there will be a border required if they do.
Where and what form it will take we are still no wiser on.
I just hope we have not been sold a pup on this issue

Hitman3000

Mr.Micro wrote:

Leo et al will claim and get the credit, a boost for FG?

Doubtful as all parties offered the government their support.

pilly

blanch152 wrote: »

You have told us on a number of occasions that you are neither a Sinn Fein supporter, voter or member, even though you have never posted a single word of criticism of Sinn Fein, yet you are portraying me as being the same as the government and being happy just because the government are happy.

This is despite me having been highly critical of the government for backing down on water charges and for their lack of action on climate change issues. I would also be critical of the lack of capital spending, particularly on public transport. Only today, over in the Brexit thread, I am critical of their spin on the Brexit deal.

Yes, I believe for the most part that FG in government for the last six years have been doing a good job, and a better job than either SF or FF would have done, yet I have and will criticise them where and when I feel it appropriate. Even then, despite the general support for their approach, I won't give them my number one if there is an election tomorrow.

And if you believe that.......................