The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

horseburger

Hitman3000 wrote: »

A back bencher could forward on the info to the relevant minister. Personally I don't think people trust either FG/FF to act in an honourable manner.
Kelly is a different matter, I believe he is revenge driven and positioning himself for a less nail biting re-election.

I'd say Alan Kelly is revenge driven, very much in terms of wanting to secure the Leadership of the Labour Party, as much as he is sour, about the way his water charges privatization project failed.

He just laughed when Matt Cooper and Ivan Yates said it to him recently, on Tonight Show on Tuesday 28th November 2017 at the 23 minute point in the show, that securing the leadership and ousting Brendan Howlin, was his real motive. He'd have reacted differently, perhaps with surprise, to the question, if he hadn't that as a motive.

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1294/135833/0/The-Tonight-Show

tayto lover

horseburger wrote: »

I'd say Alan Kelly is revenge driven, very much in terms of wanting to secure the Leadership of the Labour Party, as much as he is sour, about the way his water charges privatization project failed.

He just laughed when Matt Cooper and Ivan Yates said it to him recently, on Tonight Show on Tuesday 28th November 2017 at the 23 minute point in the show, that securing the leadership and ousting Brendan Howlin, was his real motive. He'd have reacted differently, perhaps with surprise, to the question, if he hadn't that as a motive.

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1294/135833/0/The-Tonight-Show

That's what I believe too.
This lad would do anything for power.
I used to think he was Hogan's son.

Seth Brundle

horseburger wrote: »

I'd say Alan Kelly ... is sour, about the way his water charges privatization project failed.

Why do you think Alan Kelly was in favour of privatising IW? What did he do that would provide your viewpoint?

Tony EH

Oh please, let's not pretend that the eventual privatisation of IW wasn't part and parcel of the whole project.

Seth Brundle

Tony EH wrote: »

Oh please, let's not pretend that the eventual privatisation of IW wasn't part and parcel of the whole project.

I've no idea if it was or wasn't but even if it was, I don't see Alan Kelly being involved!

McMurphy

kbannon wrote: »

I've no idea if it was or wasn't but even if it was, I don't see Alan Kelly being involved!

Alan's brother would have been a much more likey lad to have been involved, had it of come to a point of selling it off.

Alas, since it's probably never going to happen now, we can only speculate and guess as to the what it's and maybes.

horseburger

kbannon wrote: »

Why do you think Alan Kelly was in favour of privatising IW? What did he do that would provide your viewpoint?

Privatisation of water was and is intended, in the establishment of Irish Water as a company.

There was never commitment given, by either the last, or current government, to hold a referendum, on the question of retaining water in public ownership.

http://www.right2water.ie/blog/%E2%80%9Cprivatisation-irish-water-ultimately-envisaged%E2%80%9D-eurostat

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/07/privatisation-of-irish-water-is-ultimately-envisaged/

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/07/privatisation-of-irish-water-is-ultimately-envisaged/#comment-1439813

https://thenavigatormedia.com/2016/11/09/episode-12-part-2-irish-water-teneo-and-denis-o-brien/

https://www.fairsociety.ie/declan-kelly-the-real-environment-minister-brother-and-puppet-master-for-alan-kelly/

https://villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2015/05/labours-weapon/

horseburger

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Alan's brother would have been a much more likey lad to have been involved, had it of come to a point of selling it off.

Alas, since it's probably never going to happen now, we can only speculate and guess as to the what it's and maybes.

I would not rule out any future attempts to sell it off.

Government public representatives still want to bring in water charges.

That is why Fine Gael is insinuating that people are wasting water for the fun of it.

Fine Gael TDs use the phrase "willful waste" and "excess usage" of water, as if people leave taps running for the craic.

https://www.finegael.ie/statement-fine-gael-members-joint-oireachtas-committee-future-funding-domestic-water/

McMurphy

horseburger wrote: »

I would not rule out any future attempts to sell it off.

Government public representatives still want to bring in water charges.

That is why Fine Gael is insinuating that people are wasting water for the fun of it.

Fine Gael TDs use the phrase "willful waste" and "excess usage" of water, as if people leave taps running for the craic.

https://www.finegael.ie/statement-fine-gael-members-joint-oireachtas-committee-future-funding-domestic-water/

Ah but sure the "EC" (That's FGs "Expert commission" just in case you might confuse it with something with a similar abbreviation) said that a referendum enshrining Irish Water in public ownership should be considered.

Surely FG wouldn't blatantly ignore the recommendations of their very own cobbled together expert commison (that looked fairly like it was loaded at the start) ?

Surely not HB

horseburger

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Ah but sure the "EC" (That's FGs "Expert commission" just in case you might confuse it with something with a similar abbreviation) said that a referendum enshrining Irish Water in public ownership should be considered.

Surely FG wouldn't blatantly ignore the recommendations of their very own cobbled together expert commison (that looked fairly like it was loaded at the start) ?

Surely not HB

The words recommendation and considered being the important bits, where such phrases allow for such things, as stated by the commission, to be just suggestions - rather than orders - that are made by the commission, to be ignored by Fine Gael:)!

Seth Brundle

I take it that we've finished talking about Fitzgerald then and were now discussing IW?

McMurphy

kbannon wrote: »

Why do you think Alan Kelly was in favour of privatising IW? What did he do that would provide your viewpoint?

kbannon wrote: »

I take it that we've finished talking about Fitzgerald then and were now discussing IW?

Hey. You asked a question and I answered

Getting back to Frances though, I wonder who made the decision to exclude her email accounts from the trawl Leo ordered?

I mean seriously, she was kinda pertinent to the investigation, no?

Seth Brundle

I questioned why you thought Alan Kelly was dodgy

horseburger

kbannon wrote: »

I questioned why you thought Alan Kelly was dodgy

In response to your question, I said that he was involved in trying to bring about water charges and privatization, through the establishment of Irish Water the company, as part of a process with an aim to privatize water.

I included a number of items in my reply, which indicate the privatization of water was the intention.

Here are three of the items I cited.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/07/privatisation-of-irish-water-is-ultimately-envisaged/#comment-1439813

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/07/privatisation-of-irish-water-is-ultimately-envisaged/

http://www.right2water.ie/blog/%E2%80%9Cprivatisation-irish-water-ultimately-envisaged%E2%80%9D-eurostat


I did not call Alan Kelly dodgy, neither did the other posters who responded to your question. I stated that privatization was the aim of the water charges project and I included links to a number of items that back up that viewpoint.

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

I said that he was involved in trying to bring about water charges and privatization, through the establishment of Irish Water the company, as part of a process with an aim to privatize water.

I included a number of items in my reply, which indicate the privatization of water was the intention.

Here are three of the items I cited.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/07/privatisation-of-irish-water-is-ultimately-envisaged/#comment-1439813

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/07/privatisation-of-irish-water-is-ultimately-envisaged/

http://www.right2water.ie/blog/%E2%80%9Cprivatisation-irish-water-ultimately-envisaged%E2%80%9D-eurostat


I did not call Alan Kelly dodgy, neither did the other posters. I stated that privatization was the aim of the water charges project and I included links to a number of items that back up that viewpoint.

All you have demonstrated is the Eurostat believed that privatisation was the aim. The government strongly denied this and rebuked Eurostat on this point.

The flimsiest of evidence that created an urban myth/conspiracy theory that lives on to this day.

Chips Lovell

Thread isn't about Irish Water. Back on topic. Thanks.

Birdie Num Num

kbannon wrote: »

I take it that we've finished talking about Fitzgerald then and were now discussing IW?

Without trawling through the thread, has anyone to date questioned the closeness of Katie Hannon and Miriam O'Callaghan in more than just a professional capacity and the calling for the resignation of the Minister of Justice by the brother of O'Callaghan - the opposition spokesperson on Justice?

horseburger

blanch152 wrote: »

All you have demonstrated is the Eurostat believed that privatisation was the aim. The government strongly denied this and rebuked Eurostat on this point.

The flimsiest of evidence that created an urban myth/conspiracy theory that lives on to this day.

The government deny lots of things, but it doesn't mean that the government is being truthful, as has been demonstrated in this thread, and the video below, where "Little Leo"* states as being truthful, what he had been told by Frances Fitzgerald, and later after it was shown that she hadn't divulged full details on the issue, defends her.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-leo-varadkar-i-still-think-frances-fitzgerald-did-nothing-wrong-36372637.html

*https://twitter.com/poots2edwin/status/937990577148309504

McMurphy

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Without trawling through the thread, has anyone to date questioned the closeness of Katie Hannon and Miriam O'Callaghan in more than just a professional capacity and the calling for the resignation of the Minister of Justice by the brother of O'Callaghan - the opposition spokesperson on Justice?

Not sure, but I know Paul Williams/Noirin O'Sullivans closeness was touched upon and the fact that her (NOS) son was with Williams when they were sent to interview someone involved in the McCabe investigation (the one that the email controversy - in which Fitzgerald has become embroiled in) .

No one seems to want to take a stab as to why Frances and other senior members of the DOJ email accounts were not included in the trawl.

Despite being asked in the thread several times.

Seth Brundle

Rick Shaw wrote: »

No one seems to want to take a stab as to why Frances and other senior members of the DOJ email accounts were not included in the trawl.

Were not included?

McMurphy

kbannon wrote: »

Were not included?

Correct - were not included in the email a trawl.

Here.

Rick Shaw wrote: »

As I was saying before.

I still believe there is much more to keep emerging from this.

You'd have to wonder what the rationale was behind this, I (wrongly) assumed the first email accounts to be trawled would be the very same accounts that were omitted?

Email trawl for Charleton Tribunal omitted Frances Fitzgerald




Wut

Seth Brundle

Rick Shaw wrote: »

kbannon wrote: »

Were not included?

Correct - were not included in the email a trawl.

You edited it from "were included" and I hadn't noticed.
I agree anyhow that it was wrong!

Edward M

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Not sure, but I know Paul Williams/Noirin O'Sullivans closeness was touched upon and the fact that her (NOS) son was with Williams when they were sent to interview someone involved in the McCabe investigation (the one that the email controversy - in which Fitzgerald has become embroiled in) .

No one seems to want to take a stab as to why Frances and other senior members of the DOJ email accounts were not included in the trawl.

Despite being asked in the thread several times.

A sure have a stab yourself, or do you want others to put words in your mouth for you.
We can all guess why!

blanch152

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Not sure, but I know Paul Williams/Noirin O'Sullivans closeness was touched upon and the fact that her (NOS) son was with Williams when they were sent to interview someone involved in the McCabe investigation (the one that the email controversy - in which Fitzgerald has become embroiled in) .

No one seems to want to take a stab as to why Frances and other senior members of the DOJ email accounts were not included in the trawl.

Despite being asked in the thread several times.

I seem to be missing some innuendo here. You are asking a question based on a newspaper article that nobody on this thread would know whether it is true or what the answer is, if true.

Aside from that, I am wondering at what point political advisers became senior members of the DOJ.

In relation to Paul Williams, can you set out clearly what you are trying to say, it is very difficult to read between the lines.

James Brown

Bias. Having O'Sullivan's kid involved in an interview in relation to McCabe, which O'Sullivan was involved in and Williams was reporting on, shows a lack of journalistic integrity and the possibility of the 'journalist' being open to accusations of attempting to skew the narrative to suit an agenda. Something a Journalist should avoid.
I suppose in a world were some accept without question, Justice Ministers forgetting or not giving importance to emails related to a state investigation of national importance, yet being of enough note for 'somebody' to purposefully not include them in the 'trawl', it's fair enough I suppose.

Edward M

But its not good enough Matt. There is a chance that the justice dept and its head were aware of the garda strategy on McCabe and were prepared to stand idly by and let it happen.
Even when asked to furnish the correspondence relating to the issue they either decided to try and hide some or just couldn't even be bothered to look for it all. Like they really didn't give a damn on the McCabe/garda issue eitherway.
At worst, collusion, at best, incompetence, going all the way up to the then minister and maybe the present one.

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

But its not good enough Matt. There is a chance that the justice dept and its head were aware of the garda strategy on McCabe and were prepared to stand idly by and let it happen.
Even when asked to furnish the correspondence relating to the issue they either decided to try and hide some or just couldn't even be bothered to look for it all. Like they really didn't give a damn on the McCabe/garda issue eitherway.
At worst, collusion, at best, incompetence, going all the way up to the then minister and maybe the present one.

Completely agree.
It's a farce. We've Kenny/Varadkar led governments blaming everyone but themselves and even when they acknowledge that something needs changing, they simply move on. The Department of Justice and the Garda seem to be areas they'd rather not deal with and take no accountability for.
How you can slag off the DoJ but leave the current minister in place and praise the previous one seems to say they don't associate the Minister with the quality of the department.

pirlo80

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Bias. Having O'Sullivan's kid involved in an interview in relation to McCabe, which O'Sullivan was involved in and Williams was reporting on, shows a lack of journalistic integrity and the possibility of the 'journalist' being open to accusations of attempting to skew the narrative to suit an agenda. Something a Journalist should avoid.
I suppose in a world were some accept without question, Justice Ministers forgetting or not giving importance to emails related to a state investigation of national importance, yet being of enough note for 'somebody' to purposefully not include them in the 'trawl', it's fair enough I suppose.

Had a little chuckle to myself when I saw integrity and Paul Williams in the same sentence.

Having just finished Michael Cliffords book on the McCabe affair, I truly despair for the chances of any meaningful reform in the DOJ or AGS. Almost a decade on from the Morris tribunal and they are getting worse not better. I believe the only way it will happen is if SF or some of the independents with balls and real desire to drain the cesspit that is AGS and DOJ, manage to make their way into govt. Other than that, we'll be in the same position in 2027 as we are in 2017 and were in 2007.

It truly is disgusting.

tayto lover

pirlo80 wrote: »

Had a little chuckle to myself when I saw integrity and Paul Williams in the same sentence.

Having just finished Michael Cliffords book on the McCabe affair, I truly despair for the chances of any meaningful reform in the DOJ or AGS. Almost a decade on from the Morris tribunal and they are getting worse not better. I believe the only way it will happen is if SF or some of the independents with balls and real desire to drain the cesspit that is AGS and DOJ, manage to make their way into govt. Other than that, we'll be in the same position in 2027 as we are in 2017 and were in 2007.

It truly is disgusting.

Ah heeooorr.
The blind leading the blind will never work.

pirlo80

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah heeooorr.
The blind leading the blind will never work.

Whats the alternative ? The never ending cycle of scandals and cover ups we've had to endure for decades under FF/FG ? Who within either party has the balls to meaningfully address the deep seated issue's in AGS & DOJ ? Honestly because if we dont try something different nothing will ever change ?

tayto lover

pirlo80 wrote: »

Whats the alternative ? The never ending cycle of scandals and cover ups we've had to endure for decades under FF/FG ? Who within either party has the balls to meaningfully address the deep seated issue's in AGS & DOJ ? Honestly because if we dont try something different nothing will ever change ?

Gerry Adams couldn't even call out his own paedo brother who he knew was on the run and working as a youth leader in Dundalk. He left every child who came into contact with him at risk and you want people like that to run the country?

pirlo80

tayto lover wrote: »

Gerry Adams couldn't even call out his own paedo brother who he knew was on the run and working as a youth leader in Dundalk. He left every child who came into contact with him at risk and you want people like that to run the country?

Last I heard, that lady that ripped two utterly corrupt previous comissioners to shreds in the PAC was in line for his job.

Can you (or anybody) suggest a viable alternative to stop the rot ?

And just to be clear, I have never voted for SF in the past, but I'll damn sure be voting for them next time around.

tayto lover

pirlo80 wrote: »

Last I heard, that lady that ripped two utterly corrupt previous comissioners to shreds in the PAC was in line for his job.

Can you (or anybody) suggest a viable alternative to stop the rot ?

And just to be clear, I have never voted for SF in the past, but I'll damn sure be voting for them next time around.

I have no time for politicians of any party as I have said umpteen times. Not to be trusted.
The policing should be left to an independent Board.

pirlo80

tayto lover wrote: »

I have no time for politicians of any party as I have said umpteen times. Not to be trusted.
The policing should be left to an independent Board.

I agree, but that wont happen under either FF or FG which is why we need to try something new

Unfortunately, I cant see that happening any time soon

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah heeooorr.
The blind leading the blind will never work.

I think it's more a case of the FF/FG been shown incapable or unwilling and new blood needed. We can say that about a lot of things.

Nettle Soup

pirlo80 wrote: »

Whats the alternative ? The never ending cycle of scandals and cover ups we've had to endure for decades under FF/FG ? Who within either party has the balls to meaningfully address the deep seated issue's in AGS & DOJ ? Honestly because if we dont try something different nothing will ever change ?

Absolutely nobody. FG and FF are equally complicit in allowing and turning a blind eye to the endemic corruption within our police force.