The Frances Fitzgerald controversy. Are we heading for an election?

Edward M

tomwaterford wrote: »

She lied to varadkar (or else he's lied to the dail)....the fact he has confidence in her is as telling about his judgement as pushing this to the wire politically



However if yous don't think setting out to destroy a whistle blowers reputation while publically supporting him is a non issue,that's your own point of view

(if you had knowledge of corruption in the gaurds....would yous go public after what McCabe has been put through? )

Are you saying Fitzgerald was complicit in that?
There is an enquiry going on that issue.

Sierra Oscar

Edward M wrote: »

Are you saying Fitzgerald was complicit in that?
There is an enquiry going on that issue.

The Disclosures Tribunal would never even have been aware of this development if a journalist had not brought the email to light.

The email was kept from the Disclosures Tribunal. How can it investigate something if it does not know it exists in the first place? The email was only forwarded to the Disclosures Tribunal on Tuesday, after Fitzgerald and Flanagan had been exposed.

The Taoiseach has ordered an extensive trawl of the Department of Justice archive to see what else has to be sent to the Disclosures Tribunal. This shouldn't have had to be ordered considering there was a discovery order requiring all relevant documentation to be sent to the Disclosures Tribunal for investigation. The Department failed to comply. This is serious stuff. What else has not been sent on to date?

blanch152

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

She kept key information from the Taoiseach which resulted in him misleading the Dáil. Twice. He had to correct the record.

If a single email from two years ago telling her to take no action amounts to keeping key information from the Taoiseach, there are probably nine or ten Ministers guilty, given the amount of emails they receive on a daily basis.

This whole thing smacks of the opposition looking for any old stick to beat someone with.

Edward M

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Disclosures Tribunal would never even have been aware of this development if a journalist had not brought the email to light.

The email was kept from the Disclosures Tribunal. How can it investigate something if it does not know it exists in the first place? The email was only forwarded to the Disclosures Tribunal on Tuesday, after Fitzgerald and Flanagan had been exposed.

The Taoiseach has ordered an extensive trawl of the Department of Justice archive to see what else has to be sent to the Disclosures Tribunal. This shouldn't have had to be ordered considering there was a discovery order requiring all relevant documentation to be sent to the Disclosures Tribunal for investigation. The Department failed to comply. This is serious stuff. What else has not been sent on to date?

I agree, I stated such earlier.
I'm coming to the opinion that Fitzgerald should be forced to resign by FG and if not then they must accept the further consequences.
I feel perhaps they know this now too but are using her as their own pawn to force the hand of FF and SF.
It will be interesting to watch if anyone blinks here.

freeatlast24

Paul Williams & INM appear to have been heavily involved in the campaign to smear Sgt Maurice McCabe's reputation & blacken his good name.

Paul Williams – wrote four articles about Ms D and her 2006 allegation in April and May 2014 gave evidence to the Charleton Tribunal.

Mr Williams was the only journalist to write about Ms D and her then eight-year-old allegation before it became publicly known in February of this year that a counsellor [Laura Brophy] had made the error of adding an unrelated allegation of rape in a referral to Tusla.

Mr Williams, Ms D, and Independent News and Media (INM) share the same solicitor for the tribunal – Kieran Kelly. Mr Williams told the tribunal that he suggested Mr Kelly to the D family in February of this year.

It’s also worth recalling that Ms D claimed the 2006 allegation would have been known in the Bailieboro, Virginia area while Mr D claimed it was an open secret in the gardaí.

Others to give evidence included Detective Superintendent John O’Reilly, who helped put Mr D and Paul Williams in touch with each other in 2014; Superintendent Noel Cunningham, who originally investigated the 2006 allegation; and Supt Leo McGinn, who inadvertently informed Mr D of the false rape allegation attached to Laura Brophy’s incorrect referral in 2013 when he showed Mr D the referral.

Sierra Oscar

blanch152 wrote: »

If a single email from two years ago telling her to take no action amounts to keeping key information from the Taoiseach, there are probably nine or ten Ministers guilty, given the amount of emails they receive on a daily basis.

This whole thing smacks of the opposition looking for any old stick to beat someone with.

Hang on a second, the Taoiseach was discussing a politically explosive issue on the floor of the Dáil. He specifically stated that the Tánaiste was not aware of the Garda HQ legal strategy against McCabe until May 2016.

However at that very time his Tánaiste was reminded that she had been informed about the situation in detail in May 2015. She didn't mention this to Taoiseach in advance of Leaders' Questions on Tuesday when it was raised. What's worse is the fact that she didn't mention it to him after he specifically stated during Leaders' Questions that she was not aware until May 2016. She was happy for the Taoiseach to mislead the Dáil, and she didn't inform him of the actual reality which in turn allowed him to mislead the Dáil again on Wednesday during Leaders' Questions.

I'm astonished Leo didn't sack both Fitzgerald and Flanagan considering they were blatantly involved in a conspiracy to conceal this from emerging. This story would have been dead and buried if it wasn't for someone senior leaking the email to Katie Hannon on Monday night. I reckon Leo realises there is more to come out and would rather cut and run for an election.

I reckon we will see further developments on this story in the days ahead.

flutered

blanch152 wrote: »

The big political issues facing the Minister for Justice include reform of the Gardai, sentencing reform, immigration reform, refugees, etc.

The treatment of an individual - Garda McCabe - no matter how important that individual is, and no matter how symbolic of an issue the treatment of the individual is, is still of lesser importance than dealing with the actual issues.

It is incredible that a no-confidence motion is about an email when there are so many real issues that her performance could be analysed for.

so its ok for an individual to be pucked over, then it grows to many individuals, it is not my idea of a democracy/republic

jimmycrackcorm

blanch152 wrote: »

If a single email from two years ago telling her to take no action amounts to keeping key information from the Taoiseach, there are probably nine or ten Ministers guilty, given the amount of emails they receive on a daily basis.

This whole thing smacks of the opposition looking for any old stick to beat someone with.

Not only that but it seems to me that the blame lies within the DOJ. People are trying to imply the email exposes the shenanigans of the Gardai in smearing McCabe whereas it is worded in such a manner as to make this unclear to the point of saying that there is nothing for the minister to get involved in.

If the minister's department officials are saying there is nothing to do, are ministers supposed to not believe them?

Surely the Charleton tribunal is the place to consider this?

LiamaDelta

Inquitus wrote:

So does a successful "No Confidence" vote in Frances Fitzgerald automatically trigger an election? and will it happen at some point today unless FF's Martin backs down after talking to Varadkar?

The motion is down for debate next Tuesday so nothing will happen before then. If they come to an agreement then normally the government supplants a 'confidence' motion first which effectivelt quashes the 'self-confidence' motion.
It technically doesn't trigger an election but it means that the deal with FF is no longer operable and the government don't have a majority so effectively an election has to be called for the purposes of stability.

blanch152

flutered wrote: »

so its ok for an individual to be pucked over, then it grows to many individuals, it is not my idea of a democracy/republic

Twisting my words into something else. I never said that what happened to McCabe was OK.

tomwaterford

blanch152 wrote: »

This whole thing smacks of the opposition looking for any old stick to beat someone with.

Seriously....yous don't see any issue with the gaurds and dept of justice have conspired to do here?


McCabe has brought 2 commissioners,a minister of justice,most likely the taniste here aswell,if not the government??

This is such an issue the effective getting off Scot free with flat out lying on faked drink driving tests is seen as a minor issue??

(Any other normal country this drink driving thing would do the damage of what's happening here)....

But yes...yous blame the opposition for the failings of the gaurds,rather than face up the issue at hand??....FFS. ...no wonder nothing ever changes in this country

Sierra Oscar

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Not only that but it seems to me that the blame lies within the DOJ. People are trying to imply the email exposes the shenanigans of the Gardai in smearing McCabe whereas it is worded in such a manner as to make this unclear to the point of saying that there is nothing for the minister to get involved in.

If the minister's department officials are saying there is nothing to do, are ministers supposed to not believe them?

Surely the Charleton tribunal is the place to consider this?

The Guerin Report had already made its finding by May 2015 and had made it crystal clear that the allegation against McCabe was completely bogus. The report went as far as to include a specific reference that McCabe's credibilty was not in question.

Yet in May 2015 the Minister sees an email which clearly states that the Garda HQ legal strategy would seek to undermine McCabe's credibility, by relying on an allegation which we already knew through the findings of the Guerin Report was completely bogus.

The Minister knew there were elements in Justice and Garda HQ seeking to do a hatchet job on McCabe and she chose to turn a blind eye. Let's not forget that no one but McCabe knew about the fact that he had a recording of the meeting in question. That hatchet job would have been a success if he didn't produce that recording.

devnull

Green Party have had their say (from their series of tweets on twitter) I don't often agree with them but I do mostly now.

Macho politics is pushing the country into an ill-timed election. People will be rightly angry that old style party politics is bringing them to the polls.

A key factor behind the Maurice McCabe controversy is the culture that exists within Fine Gael. As the self professed party for 'law and order' they seem blind to the problems that exist within the Department of Justice and the Garda Siochana.

Both Ministers Francis Fitzgerald and Charlie Flanagan are culpable for not having done enough to bring transparency, urgency and effective measures to restore confidence in both these key State institutions.

Rather than addressing the source of that problem Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein spend all their time marking each other and calculating how to catch the other party out, rather than promoting what is good for the country.

We should be going into the European Council on the 15th of December with a common position on Brexit but instead our negotiating position will be undermined by the political manoeuvring that is taking place here at home.

Pretty much everyone else in the state can see this for what it is, a political stroke by FF who are too busy focusing on a Battle Royale with Sinn Fein who they think are vulnerable right now and they dare not let something like the good of the country get in a way of such political posturing.

I don't think that FG have handled this matter well, far from it, but the opposition parties are not exactly lining up to call for an election as you normally tend to see when one is on the brink of being called because they all know that this is a simply selfish stroke by FF who are trying to take advantage of a weakened SF.

Gonna really help the Irish border issue too and the Shinners need it like a hole in the head right now with their own issues and NI.

tayto lover

I have no time for any political party whether in Govt or outside it.
I find all of them to be a pack of hypocrites and self-servers. Can't think of one politician I would actually vote for.

FF were totally corrupt as we saw with Charlie, Bertie, Burke etc. Anything they couldn't pocket they sold - like all our oil and gas reserves.

SF are the same with O' Snadaigh and Gerry Adams who allowed his paedophile brother, Liam, to work as a youth worker in Dundalk despite having being told of his history of abuse. Imagine letting him work with other children after what he did to his own daughter. All on the record.

Independents only there to fill their pockets before being dumped in the dustbin.
FG grabbing on to power at all costs and Enda prepared to do a deal with Lowry for his vote.

Nothing changes in this country. Hypocrites all.

blanch152

tomwaterford wrote: »

Seriously....yous don't see any issue with the gaurds and dept of justice have conspired to do here?

I don't see any conspiracy between Justice and the Gardai, but I could be wrong on that, and it is being investigated by the Tribunal, so we will see.

This whole thing is like that mad Queen in Alice in Wonderland, crying off with their heads.

tobsey

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Guerin Report had already made its finding by May 2015 and had made it crystal clear that the allegation against McCabe was completely bogus. The report went as far as to include a specific reference that McCabe's credibilty was not in question.

Yet in May 2015 the Minister sees an email which clearly states that the Garda HQ legal strategy would seek to undermine McCabe's credibility, by relying on an allegation which we already knew through the findings of the Guerin Report was completely bogus.

The Minister knew there were elements in Justice and Garda HQ seeking to do a hatchet job on McCabe and she chose to turn a blind eye. Let's not forget that no one but McCabe knew about the fact that he had a recording of the meeting in question. That hatchet job would have been a success if he didn't produce that recording.

That email doesn't "clearly state" anything, because it is not clearly written. However it certainly doesn't say that it will try to discredit McCabe by using the contents of the allegation. It states that they will use the existence of the allegation as possible motive for McCabe to be taking the stance he is. Basically they were saying that McCabe might only have issue with the events being investigated by the commission because he himself wanted retribution for the investigations being done against him.

The email also states that the Minister should take no action, and as has been said it would be illegal for the Minister to advise or direct that a particular strategy is taken or not. However the fact that she failed to remember a badly written, one page email two and a half years after it was sent doesn't seem to me to be reason enough for bringing down a government.

Mr.H

All the controversy that ff has allowed fg to escape on so far in this term. I do not believe for one second ff would bring down the government now if they where not fully sure there was a cover up. There was two previous no confidence motions that ff abstained from.

I can't see why fg just don't bite the bullet and force her resignation. She won't get reelected now anyway

tobsey

Mr.H wrote: »

All the controversy that ff has allowed fg to escape on so far in this term. I do not believe for one second ff would bring down the government now if they where not fully sure there was a cover up. There was two previous no confidence motions that ff abstained from.

I can't see why fg just don't bite the bullet and force her resignation.

The other confidence motions were before the second of three planned budgets in the C&S agreement. This is just the excuse they were waiting for to pull the plug early.

flaneur

There's been an issue with problems in the Garda management structure that long predate this government or, indeed, many of its processors.

I mean, if you go back to the 1980s you'd the Government (Fianna Fail at the time) tapping journalists phones!

For those of us not old enough to remember (myself included), it's nicely summarised on wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_phone_tapping_scandal

We need total reform of how policing services are managed and a clear gap between the political world and any aspect of police management or appointments. It's pretty clear that this is problem that spans decades and did not just pop up in the last few years.

The same is true of the health crisis which has been a crisis now for decades. I remember having the exact same discussion in 2003 and I remember there being a homelessness crisis that was so bad in Dublin at the peak of the boom that I was feeling quite disgusted at the lack of policy and this was BEFORE the 2008 crash. Maybe around 2005, 6. I distinctly remember being very upset at the sight of homeless young teenagers sleeping rough in the city centre.

You're looking at decades of rot and no ability to implement reform.

I can't see how switching from FG to FF would achieve anything at all tbh. I would prefer to give the current lot a couple of years to attempt to sort it out, as at least most of them are from a different generation of Irish politics.

What's the point of a general election right now? We throw them out and get some other combination of the same thing with a good dose of Fianna Fail?

Musical chairs is all it is.

I don't have that much confidence in the current lot to resolve any of the above, but I've no confidence in Fianna Fail either. So, I'm not really seeing any point in an election.

Also, I honestly think Sinn Fein in opposition has been no bad thing. They're aggressive enough and outside the system enough to hold people to account. However, I don't think I'd necessarily trust them in power tbh.

The same goes for the AAA and the likes of Clare Daly. I wouldn't necessarily agree with them on a lot of issues, but they're providing proper opposition. That wasn't the case with the old FG vs FF dichotomy that resulted in probably the most polite opposition anyone's ever seen.

But seriously, Fianna Fail as a french new alternative? (Falls around laughing)

I'd turn out to vote, but I don't think I'd feel very motivated at all tbh.

Hitman3000

tobsey wrote:

The other confidence motions were before the second of three planned budgets in the C&S agreement. This is just the excuse they were waiting for to pull the plug early.

They really should have pulled the plug over the stunt Leo pulled with M Whelans appointment.

Yellow River

Looking at the strain on her face in the Dail as she responded to queries in relation to this murky quagmire, she looked completely out of her depth. I think she also knows this. She was dealing with an issue fraught with danger and she failed. I think she will step aside.

FrancieBrady

Surely the tribunal is now compromised given that the DOJ have been found to be either withholding vital documents or is completely incompetent.
Emails and missing transcripts?

Something seriously wrong.
And there is no evident appetite in FG to put it right.

flaneur

One solution would be to throw the whole thing into a cross-party committee and basically let them at it.

Something like an Oireachtas Committee on Policing Reform.

This stuff is so serious it's beyond party politics.

Accountability isn't happening.

tayto lover

flaneur wrote: »

One solution would be to throw the whole thing into a cross-party committee and basically let them at it.

This stuff is so serious it's beyond party politics.

Accountability isn't happening.

No party has the appetite to deal with any issue regarding wrong doing. Too many skeletons in too many cupboards.

Mr.Micro

Let's see what Leo is made of. It's hard to tell the difference between FG and FF. What a choice the country has? Fitzgerald should go and not wait to be pushed.

What a mess, an out of control so called Police force that is akin to a criminal organisation and a Government that appears incapable of dealing with anything. It will be only a matter of time before the nation wreckers are voted back in.

It's ironic that FF could not put together a motion to get rid of O'Sullivan, but when it comes to an opportunity for the party well that is a different matter.

bleary

Mr.H wrote: »

I do not believe for one second ff would bring down the government now if they where not fully sure there was a cover up. There was two previous no confidence motions that ff abstained from.

Ff are trying to catch the momentum of Alan Kelly and Sinn Fein. Ff are Sinn Fein lite these days . Michael Martin is attempting to flex muscles in this, either Leo sacks her demonstrating his subservience or doesn't and we are into an election. I presume they are counting on fg not wanting an election at the moment.
I really wish we could just have stability with focus on health housing and brexit. Things have been slow enough since the last election. So an election within 2 months with increase in seats for fine gael

flaneur

That's why I find this whole thing just futile and a bit depressing.

We should be pushing very hard to get the major issues sorted.

1. Health - it's a complete disgrace and a national embarrassment and we have the resources to deal with it! It's inexcusable.
I'm actually feeling really p**ed off having watched that RTE documentary the other night. More of the same - a clique divvying up state money and treating people like rubbish. A health service that's basically run to suit a little clique at the top and not as a public system.

2. Housing and homelessness. Again, that's down to decades and decades of policy that's directed towards encouraging property speculation and propping up buy-to-let small time landlord/speculators flipping property and speculating on asset value, rather than encouraging a market that's primarily about providing people with the ability to house themselves.

3. The Garda corruption scandal. That's undermining trust in one of the most important organs of the state. If we can't trust the Gardai, who can we trust? It's unfair on the public and it's also unfair on the huge % of Gardai who are being compromised by this nonsense. It must be totally disheartening to go to work, putting your life on the line in some cases, and knowing you've no back up from management and will be hung out to dry if you complain.

Instead, we've political football between FF, SF and FG and at a moment when there is total chaos going on in the UK and probably the most dangerous US president in history and a massive issue with our legacy of corporate tax policies that could yet unravel the entire basis of the modern economy.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not much better than their counterparts across the water : party before country.

Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my early middle age, but I just increasingly don't see any vision from political leaders in Ireland or elsewhere.

Loafing Oaf

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It's hard to tell the difference between FG and FF. What a choice the country has? F

Other parties are available you know...

eagle eye

The amount of posts in this thread from people who blindly follow political parties is not surprising. What is surprising is how poor they are at attempting to hide it and appear unbiased in their posts.

tayto lover

eagle eye wrote: »

The amount of posts in this thread from people who blindly follow political parties is not surprising. What is surprising is how poor they are at attempting to hide it and appear unbiased in their posts.

Posters all seem to follow their own party no matter what all the time oblivious to their wrong doings while highlighting the wrong doings of the other parties.

Tell me how

There is an interesting sideline story in all of this. Michael McDowell.

When he was Minister for Justice, he tried to introduce sweeping reforms of An Gardai and was hated for it. For his troubles, he went from Tanaiste of the country to former TD within the space of 24Hrs in 2007.

Guess what he's spending part of his time doing now? Representing Maurice McCabe. I bet he has a smile on his face every day now.

I think of him every time where we are in a situation where people are saying "They're all the same, nothing will ever change". He was someone who tried to enforce change and he couldn't even get elected while being Tanaiste and leader of his party.
That's down to the public. Us. Not those feckers in Dail Eireann who we give out about all the time.

flaneur

It's also about how reformers are spun by the media and vested interests though.
It's happened quite a few people who've tried to deal with big issues here - they're pilloried.

One that I find amazing is that we were specifically required to reform the costs of legal services here, as part of the IMF/ECB/EU bailout and instead we focused on spending a bloody fortune on water meters.
Not that I'm particularly opposed to the concept of paying for water (if done in a reasonable way), I just think it was a typical example of choosing issues that avoided upsetting any vested interests' cash flows.

Education - we still have schools effectively still using what amount to sectarian enrolment policies and attempts to reform them by Ruairi Quinn were very quickly quashed a few years ago.

Same old same old.

The Government has certain 'no go' topics where it knows fine well it can achieve nothing so, instead it focuses on the things its allowed to do.

If you look back at the whole history of the state, the government focused on things like infrastructural projects and left all aspects of social policy to the powers that be. Seems that kind of cowardly, don't rock the boat, approach still is a major feature of Irish politics.

jimmycrackcorm

devnull wrote: »

Green Party have had their say (from their series of tweets on twitter) I don't often agree with them but I do mostly now.

"Both Ministers Francis Fitzgerald and Charlie Flanagan are culpable for not having done enough to bring transparency, urgency and effective measures to restore confidence in both these key State institutions. "

If anything, this should be what the ministers should be held accountable for. It's been very apparent that there has been a malaise in the DOJ and Gardai that isn't being tackled other than to force Garda Commissioners out, in the blind hope that will affect some sort of change.

The confidence and supply agreement has always been unstable and in the years ahead we need stability more than anything, so perhaps an election that has always been predicted since the formation of the government is needed. That it might come from an email that is far from a smoking gun is disappointing.

FF have now put themselves in a bind when instead they should have stuck to the C&S and instead demanded a clear and timelined plan from the Justice minister to deliver upon the points that the greens made, otherwise after a period of time they would then force a confidence motion which would be justifiable.

...And Justice

There's not going to be an election, this is all fear mongering by the gubberment. Francis will retire on Tuesday. Relax for jaysus sake, it's all blustery, nothing more.

Tell me how

brendanwalsh wrote: »

simply put. Fitzgerald either knew the garda were going to try to bury mccabe, or else she is incredibly incompetent at her job. this government is done. it will be back to the boiler house for leo, he's like a turkey waiting to be roasted for xmas. enda slipped out at the right time, he knew the chalice was poisoned.

I actually don't think Leo is in this long term anyway. Now that he holds the office, it can never be taken from him that he was Taoiseach. I think he already knows what his next move is and, Ok, this might be a couple of years sooner than he thought but so be it.

I suspected before this kicked off that he would contest one GE as Taoiseach and leader of FG, hopefully winning and would step aside before that government came to end of term. If he lost, he'd move any way.

I remember reading before that he said he didn't expect to be in politics long term. Also, I suspect Simon Coveney knew this (in some form) at the last leadership contest. It was fought with claws hidden.

Hitman3000

Tell me how wrote:

When he was Minister for Justice, he tried to introduce sweeping reforms of An Gardai and was hated for it. For his troubles, he went from Tanaiste of the country to former TD within the space of 24Hrs in 2007.

Never liked him, but respected him for what he tried to do. From Garda reform to changing the liqueur laws. I think he would have achieved much if allowed and time was on his side.

flutered

blanch152 wrote: »

Twisting my words into something else. I never said that what happened to McCabe was OK.

i replied to a post not the poster, i twisted nothing just posted on what i saw, end of arguement, this is not what the thread is about

blanch152

devnull wrote: »

Green Party have had their say (from their series of tweets on twitter) I don't often agree with them but I do mostly now.



Pretty much everyone else in the state can see this for what it is, a political stroke by FF who are too busy focusing on a Battle Royale with Sinn Fein who they think are vulnerable right now and they dare not let something like the good of the country get in a way of such political posturing.

I don't think that FG have handled this matter well, far from it, but the opposition parties are not exactly lining up to call for an election as you normally tend to see when one is on the brink of being called because they all know that this is a simply selfish stroke by FF who are trying to take advantage of a weakened SF.

Gonna really help the Irish border issue too and the Shinners need it like a hole in the head right now with their own issues and NI.

Green Party are right on this, if Flanagan and Fitzgerald have to be held to account on something, it is on their failure to reform. Problem for the opposition is that they would then have to explain in detail what they would have done both differently and better. Neither SF nor FF are capable of even explaining this.

As a result, forgetting an email from two years ago becomes the issue, a quite ridiculous state of affairs.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

As a result, forgetting an email from two years ago becomes the issue, a quite ridiculous state of affairs.

In your opinion. How many times did Leo mislead the Dail in regards this 'forgotten' email?

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

In your opinion. How many times did Leo mislead the Dail in regards this 'forgotten' email?

There are far more serious issues for this country than a forgotten email.

Hitman3000

Of course there are, but you can't continue trying to solve problems with individuals too incompetent to do their job.

James Brown

Sacking Fitzgerald is the most logical route.
If a defacto coalition partner is not happy with someone holding a position and it may collapse the government, you've got a clear choice. Why they are really causing fuss is irrelevant, they're calling no confidence regardless.

It's like anytime FG get just criticism; poke a dig at the accuser regardless of how right they may be. Guilty of the real whinging and moaning they put on others.

brendanwalsh

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sacking Fitzgerald is the most logical route.
If a defacto coalition partner is not happy with someone holding a position and it may collapse the government, you've got a clear choice. Why they are really causing fuss is irrelevant, they're calling no confidence regardless.

It's like anytime FG get just criticism; poke a dig at the accuser regardless of how right they may be. Guilty of the real whinging and moaning they put on others.

Matt, can you confirm if you are Leo's partner of the same name. If so you should state that in this thread as you may be biased.

Tell me how

blanch152 wrote: »

There are far more serious issues for this country than a forgotten email.

You're absolutely right. It's not really about the email anymore. It's about how the "email" was handled.

Former boss used to have a saying, "the problem is never the issue, it's how you deal with it is the issue".

Inquitus

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Matt, can you confirm if you are Leo's partner of the same name. If so you should state that in this thread as you may be biased.

Everyone is biased one way or the other, who he is or is not is not relevant to our discourse, frankly its rude to ask, this is an anonymous internet forum if people so choose.

Hitman3000

brendanwalsh wrote:

Matt, can you confirm if you are Leo's partner of the same name. If so you should state that in this thread as you may be biased.

I could re- register as Ivanka Trump, would you assume I was the ex wife of Donald?

...And Justice

Look at yiz all getting worked up over nothing. On another note SF have said Mary Lou will lead then should an election happen. FF/SF will happen at some stage, I've always believed that Mary Lou was going to pull SF centre left in line with FF. When she becomes leader there will be no former provos in her cabinet.

Dinarius

I don’t think there is anything to “brazen out”. FF (& Martin in particular) can’t backdown on this now.

Prediction: Frances Fitzgerald will tender her resignation “in the national interest” (to borrow Dessie O’Malley’s famous utterance.) Leo will accept it with “deep regret”, or some such claptrap. Mickey Martin will have his bounty, and an election will have been avoided.

The REAL news today is that not one Garda will face censure. Police state? Certainly a Blue Shirt one.

It really is the perfect day to bury bad news; coz, when it comes down to it, the Fitzgerald saga is classic Orish political BS. The real issues are elsewhere.

D.

Edward M

Leo coming up on 6 news rte, this should be interesting!

jimmycrackcorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sacking Fitzgerald is the most logical route.
If a defacto coalition partner is not happy with someone holding a position and it may collapse the government, you've got a clear choice. Why they are really causing fuss is irrelevant, they're calling no confidence regardless.

It's like anytime FG get just criticism; poke a dig at the accuser regardless of how right they may be. Guilty of the real whinging and moaning they put on others.

The problem with that logical route is that it is simply scapegoating. Fitzgerald isn't responsible for the smear campaign on McCabe, and this whole thing should be dealt with by the Charleton investigation.

I think it's more honest for Varadkar to stand up for Fitzgerald in this specific instance than play the same political stroke politics as SF and FF are doing because of an unclear email. Even if the email was specific about this being a smear campaign, and suggested that ministerial action was needed, any attempt to direct the Gardai would either fall into accusations of an attempt to cover up or to interfere with Charleston.

It would be more honest for those parties to demand her head for not fixing the underlying issues in the DOJ and Gardai, but that's not what politics is about.