Daniel Bryan - Will he ever wrestle again Thread.

adamcally

I hope Brian could wrestle again in WWE and face Nakamura or AJ Styles.

Monokne

I suspect Bryan works in WWE in 2018. I admit it's unlikely but I feel like when it comes to the time Vince will allow him wrestle rather than see him go elsewhere.

sky88

Monokne wrote: »

I suspect Bryan works in WWE in 2018. I admit it's unlikely but I feel like when it comes to the time Vince will allow him wrestle rather than see him go elsewhere.

i think bryans the one wrestler who realistically could make roh and new japan a bigger number 2 than they are to wwe. i think there going to find a way to get him cleared. my thoughts are the lawsuits filed against them are the biggest hurdle for them to clear him.

the current storyline with shane i think will turn shane heel but will be interested with what they do as they could have a peed off bryan leading owens and zayn against the mcmahons wont clear him

Monokne

Certainly seems like they are angling toward Bryan as a heel but clearly it won't work. A Bryan-Owens-Zayn faction would be massive babyfaces to most of the audience regardless of the story they tell.

I suspect they are trying to turn Bryan to cool him off before he is a free agent. This also won't work.

LeeJM

Not having a go Monokne but in one post you suspect he wrestles in WWE in 2018 amd in the next you suspect WWE are turning him heel to try and cool him off before he wrestles on the indies. It just seems like you are hedging your bets so you can say "see I was right".

Personally I think he stays in WWE and he wrestles again. I actually think he wrestles at Mania.

Jerichoholic

Bryan wants out so bad, I doubt any money would keep him there.

leggo

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Bryan wants out so bad, I doubt any money would keep him there.

He's just had a kid, why would he want to leave the company that would be able to give him the most money?

Jerichoholic

He's apparently saved all his money doesn't have a big house etc. He's set for life. This is from Meltzer talking about it by the way, they are quite good friends.

Mr.Nice Guy

Monokne wrote: »

I suspect Bryan works in WWE in 2018. I admit it's unlikely but I feel like when it comes to the time Vince will allow him wrestle rather than see him go elsewhere.

Vince is not the one preventing him wrestle. It is the medical opinion of Dr. Maroon.

Jerichoholic

He's been cleared by three other doctors, it's Vince's call 100%

DM_7

I am not conviced Bryan would more than briefly spike interest in anywhere he goes.

We saw it with TNA that it is very difficult to make something big without investing money and it is very hard to make any significant profit.

He will be able to tour and make money for himself but week in, week out in one place, I can't see it lasting without other well known, big names.

Mr.Nice Guy

Jerichoholic wrote: »

He's been cleared by three other doctors, it's Vince's call 100%

You earlier said he was good friends with Meltzer so why do you think Meltzer take a different view?

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/852597326417756160

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/819964821605007360

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/863823331761442816

Jerichoholic

I stand corrected! Was a while ago Dave was talking about it, my memory is not what it used to be. He has been cleared by others though.

leggo

That myth was debunked in another thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105349057&postcount=7564

Monokne

LeeJM wrote: »

Not having a go Monokne but in one post you suspect he wrestles in WWE in 2018 amd in the next you suspect WWE are turning him heel to try and cool him off before he wrestles on the indies. It just seems like you are hedging your bets so you can say "see I was right".

Personally I think he stays in WWE and he wrestles again. I actually think he wrestles at Mania.

I don't think you're having a go but I do think you misunderstood my posts.

My first post concluded:

" when it comes to the time Vince will allow him wrestle rather than see him go elsewhere"

My second post says "I suspect they are trying to turn Bryan to cool him off before he is a free agent. This also won't work."

So for clarity - I believe that right now they may be trying to cool him off before his contract runs out, but that once the reality is upon Vince that one of his stars can go and work anywhere else, at that point he may allow Bryan wrestle.

Get me? Not trying to be condescending here, just clarifying

Loughc

If he wants to cool him he could just take him off tv and not have him featured at all.

Mr.Nice Guy

leggo wrote: »

That myth was debunked in another thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105349057&postcount=7564

Sorry but nothing was debunked in that post. You can't debunk something without evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and you cannot produce one iota of evidence to back up your claim that "No doctor is/was stopping Angle or Bryan from wrestling, Vince is."

Bryan himself has not alleged any of your claims - far from it in fact, he has been very complimentary towards the WWE in their handling of this, and it's not as if he's afraid to speak his mind - and nor has Dave Meltzer alleged this. You dismiss Meltzer's take on things claiming he is woefully undereducated on the subject which is rather convenient. It seems some are willing to believe Meltzer when he reports on certain issues they agree with, but will dismiss his reports when they appear to contradict their own perceptions.

To put it into perspective, Dr Maroon is the one who performed surgery on Bryan's neck back in 2014. Here are the two pictured together:





The idea that this man, who would know Bryan's medical status better than any of us, is engaging in some Vince McMahon-led conspiracy to keep Daniel Bryan out of action is not only insulting to the man's medical experience and integrity, but ought to be considered an insult to every fan's intelligence.

DM_7

leggo wrote: »

That myth was debunked in another thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105349057&postcount=7564

But you used Total Divas as a source......

leggo

What contractual authority do you think a doctor has within WWE Nice Guy? Vince decides who wrestles and who doesn't, he takes advice from doctors, and also chooses what doctors to take advice from.

You're reading Meltzer's tweets too literally without actually understanding the process. What do you think would happen if Vince said to Bryan "you're wrestling tonight" and Bryan obviously wanted to...do you think a doctor would have any authority to stop that from happening? :pac:

Also you're the one calling this a conspiracy, I've said none of that and went to pains to explain the distinction of the point I was making. You've nothing to counter that so you're strawmanning.

leggo

DM_7 wrote: »

But you used Total Divas as a source......

No I didn't, the different methods of treatment attempted was something Bryan spoke about many times in interviews pre- and post-retirement, I used that because it's a visual representation of it that people who didn't follow the story closely may have seen.

LeeJM

Monokne wrote: »

I don't think you're having a go but I do think you misunderstood my posts.

My first post concluded:

" when it comes to the time Vince will allow him wrestle rather than see him go elsewhere"

My second post says "I suspect they are trying to turn Bryan to cool him off before he is a free agent. This also won't work."

So for clarity - I believe that right now they may be trying to cool him off before his contract runs out, but that once the reality is upon Vince that one of his stars can go and work anywhere else, at that point he may allow Bryan wrestle.

Get me? Not trying to be condescending here, just clarifying

Understood.

Mr.Nice Guy

leggo wrote: »

What contractual authority do you think a doctor has within WWE Nice Guy? Vince decides who wrestles and who doesn't, he takes advice from doctors, and also chooses what doctors to take advice from.

You're reading Meltzer's tweets too literally without actually understanding the process. What do you think would happen if Vince said to Bryan "you're wrestling tonight" and Bryan obviously wanted to...do you think a doctor would have any authority to stop that from happening? :pac:

Also you're the one calling this a conspiracy, I've said none of that and went to pains to explain the distinction of the point I was making. You've nothing to counter that so you're strawmanning.

The wrestlers need to be given medical clearance to compete! Think about it logically, man. WWE right now are facing concussion lawsuits from disgruntled former employees. Does it seem logical to you that in light of that, Vince is going to interfere in the medical diagnosis involving his top doctor and his employee, particularly one who has had high profile issues, and all of the risks that would entail?

And I'm simply listening to Meltzer's take. If you watched the video I posted a few days ago in the other thread, which I suspect you probably didn't as you conveniently dismiss Meltzer's knowledge on the Bryan issue despite accepting it on other issues, then you would have heard him say about one minute in:

he [Daniel Bryan] was VERY complimentary of WWE, that they’ve taken good care of him, and they’ve done what they think is best. I mean a lot of people want Joseph Maroon to be this bad guy in this situation, and I’ll tell you, he’s not the bad guy. He’s giving his medical opinion.

Your entire theory on what is happening flies in the face of what Bryan himself has said, and what Meltzer himself reports. And that is fair enough providing you can actually cite some credible evidence to support your theory, but you can't.

leggo

What do you think my take is that I need to support?! The fact that you keep saying the word 'conspiracy'...do you think I'm arguing that there's some murky Dr Nick figure that Vince is paying off to clear or not clear wrestlers as he likes? That's not what I'm saying and why I did up the long post.

The wrestlers do need to be cleared, for the reasons you're saying. But the extent that they need to be cleared is totally variable. Some need basic tests, some need to be sent for MRIs, some need brain scans, and so on. If they all needed all of the above, medicals would take months to complete because different treatments take different amounts of time. Re-read my long post if you like, I've gone through all this. You don't just put them into a magical clearance machine, push a button and say "You are/aren't healthy." This is all so complex it's borderline subjective, hence several doctors clearing Bryan and one not.

I don't disagree with what Meltzer and Bryan are saying, I'm saying that you don't understand it. What Dave is saying ISN'T "Maroon is the one in charge of clearing Bryan, Vince wants him to wrestle and is being told no,"...what he's saying is, "If Maroon said it was okay, Vince would allow him to wrestle." Aside from that being something that is actually impossible to know unless you ARE Vince McMahon, it's something I accept and go with in my argument.

But Maroon doesn't have any authority to allow or not allow wrestlers to wrestle. Vince can get a second opinion. That's why Bryan went to other doctors, he didn't go just for fun. Vince can choose to listen to those doctors because he's the one in authority in WWE, he's choosing not to, therefore Vince is deciding what doctor to listen to. That's not a conspiracy theory, just this week my housemate didn't like medical advice she got from one doc, so she went to another who told her what she was looking to hear. No conspiracy, both are competent medical professionals I'm sure, but one said one thing and the other said another because this **** is complex.

Monokne

Loughc wrote: »

If he wants to cool him he could just take him off tv and not have him featured at all.

Historically, a lengthy absence makes people hotter upon return, not cooler.

I understand your logic but I think if he disappeared from the public eye for 9 months, that would only add to the intrigue and clamour.

Monokne

Re: the debate around why he isn't wrestling.

Ultimately it's a Vince call. Different doctors give conflicting opinions all the time. He's just choosing to listen to Maroon given the climate we're in with all the action class lawsuits etc.

Mr.Nice Guy

leggo wrote:

I don't disagree with what Meltzer and Bryan are saying, I'm saying that you don't understand it. What Dave is saying ISN'T "Maroon is the one in charge of clearing Bryan, Vince wants him to wrestle and is being told no,"...what he's saying is, "If Maroon said it was okay, Vince would allow him to wrestle." Aside from that being something that is actually impossible to know unless you ARE Vince McMahon, it's something I accept and go with in my argument.

Now you say you don't disagree with what Meltzer is saying yet two days ago you completely dismissed him...

Meltzer is a horrible source for this story, he's not good on CTE and struggles to understand and report on the issue with it. If you're into learning about CTE, follow NFL discussions on it as they're much further along (the journalists that is, not the NFL themselves who are a disaster and covered it up for years).

I've no issue with Dave as a reporter but this is one area he's woefully undereducated in.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105343479&postcount=7556

leggo wrote: »

But Maroon doesn't have any authority to allow or not allow wrestlers to wrestle. Vince can get a second opinion. That's why Bryan went to other doctors, he didn't go just for fun. Vince can choose to listen to those doctors because he's the one in authority in WWE, he's choosing not to, therefore Vince is deciding what doctor to listen to. That's not a conspiracy theory, just this week my housemate didn't like medical advice she got from one doc, so she went to another who told her what she was looking to hear. No conspiracy, both are competent medical professionals I'm sure, but one said one thing and the other said another because this **** is complex.

Your idea that Vince can get a second opinion has been put to Meltzer on his radio show before and he made the point that it would be a disastrous PR move in light of the concussion lawsuits that WWE are facing if Vince was seen to be trying to circumvent the opinion of his top doctor. And he's right in saying that. Imagine the gold that would be for the lawyers of these ex-employees to have Vince McMahon not taking on board and trusting the opinion of his top doctor's medical assessment.

That is maybe the source of your confusion about why Meltzer and others are constantly saying it has to be Dr Maroon that makes the call:

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/900890232836431872

Your housemate analogy doesn't work here because we have to factor in that Bryan is a man who by his own admission on the Edge and Christian podcast has had ten documented concussions ('documented' being the key word as it is likely more than that when you count the times he didn't get checked) and also four post-concussion seizures. And there's also the issue of WWE medical care being in the spotlight (the concussion lawsuit, CM Punk's accusations about his treatment on the Cabana podcast).

In light of that, the decision rests with Dr. Maroon. If he had cleared Bryan, he would be wrestling already. But his opinion was that he should not wrestle. And that is not the fault of Vince McMahon.

leggo

Yet again, you're arguing with me on points I'm not making! Where did I say it was Vince's fault? I don't blame Vince. Search my posts here on this if you like: I've been consistent that I don't particularly want to see Bryan wrestle again with the risk involved. I don't blame Vince, I'm not angry with him, I may be the most pro-Vince guy on this entire forum!

My point about Meltzer not understanding CTE is that he's not reporting on the aspect that Bryan may already be a walking Benoit. Wrestling fans largely don't understand what the actual issue is and aren't critiquing Bryan's self-analysis of the situation because it also seems to go over their main source's head. And, like I said, I don't have any particular issue with Meltzer as a journalist either. But you seem to see him as some omnipotent, all-seeing deity whose word is gospel as soon as he tweets it...he's not, he's just a guy who reports on stuff his excellent sources feed him. He can get it wrong and isn't above criticism.

Case in point: earlier in the year, he reported that JBL's bullying had 'caused an episode' of Mauro Ranallo's bipolar disorder. Someone close to me has suffered with bipolar for years, therefore in my effort to help them and understand what they're going through, I've become somewhat of an expert on that particular disorder myself (to the point I've even argued with doctors and been proven right!) If Meltzer had done even a cursory Wikipedia search of bipolar, he would know that nothing like that 'causes an episode'. Bipolar is a chemical imbalance causing someone to go between depressed and elated, that can either strike based on time periods (be it seasonal or even time of day in serious cases) or at random. The entire point of bipolar, why it's so serious and difficult to deal with/understand, is that nothing external causes it, it's entirely down to the brain having a chemical imbalance that has a serious affect on someone's mental state. So his reporting on that issue is uneducated and reckless. If he was working at a non-wrestling media outlet and reported that kind of stuff that may have ruined a career without even Googling bipolar, he'd likely be disciplined, sued or sacked, it's that bad of an error. It seems that medical issues are a blind spot for Dave, and that figures because he's a wrestling journalist and not a doctor.

So when he speaks about what his sources are telling him, it tends to be accurate. But if he's reporting about medical issues with any kind of depth? He's just a guy and can be wrong. Also, I can agree with him on one thing and disagree on another. It's you who seems to struggle with this by blindly accepting everything he says without question. Just because I'm asking questions of a man who's made questionable decisions doesn't mean I'm a conspiracy theorist.

The reality, what it all boils down to, is: Vince can choose who to listen to in order to clear a wrestler, he is not obliged to listen to Maroon or anyone else specifically. They are not his bosses, WWE is his company and he has the final say over everything that happens. He has several doctors willing to clear Bryan if he wants to. What we're discussing is the risk/reward aspect and if he will choose to listen to said doctors with the threat of Bryan moving to a competitor, which he is entitled to do. As you point out, doing so could have consequences elsewhere, but he is still entitled to brave those consequences. Hence risk/reward.

Can you please understand what I'm saying now before you post again?

Omackeral

We need a new PW Boards Award for Feud of the Year...

Mr.Nice Guy

You made out that it was Vince's call to clear Bryan. You even made the extraordinary claim that WWE might be so threatened by ROH that:

It wouldn't surprise me if I woke up tomorrow to an announcement that they're doing Bryan vs Shane at the next PPV now.

I can't believe anyone could think that's a possibility. That was when I pointed out to you that it's not a Vince McMahon call keeping Bryan out of action. It's not as if Vince can lift up a phone and get on to his top doctor Maroon and say, 'Make it happen.'

His top doctor isn't convinced that Bryan is medically up to in-ring competition. That is the crux of the matter. You don't believe that though because for some strange reason you are convinced WWE rushed Kurt Angle back to action because they were desperate to save the TLC PPV (of all shows):

I'd have believed that until they sped up Angle's in-ring clearance to save a PPV.

What it boils down to is this: for Bryan to compete in a WWE ring in 2018 requires one of two things:

A) Maroon revises his opinion on Bryan's capacity to wrestle.

Vince circumvents the opinion of his top doctor Maroon and goes with another doctor's call who is willing to clear Bryan.

Given that the latter option would be a total own goal on the part of WWE since they are embroiled in lawsuits over the care of their employees, option B is a total non-starter. And so Meltzer was right to say that it is therefore Maroon's call. You don't appear to want to acknowledge this and your recent post talks about how Vince "is not obliged to listen to Maroon or anyone else specifically."

I don't see Meltzer as omnipotent, but it strikes me as funny that people will cite him as a credible source for certain news stories but will dismiss him out of hand when his opinions contradict his own views. And if I am not to believe him (or Bryan) on their assessment of the situation then I am going to need evidence to the contrary, and I've yet to see any.

Ultimately it comes down to your views on Dr. Maroon. You either believe he is sincere in his medical diagnosis of Bryan and that he doesn't believe he is medically fit to compete (as I and Bryan and Dave believe to be the case), you either believe that Maroon is bad at his job, or you believe that Maroon has been pressured into his diagnosis by Vince McMahon for some whacky reason about Vince being worried Bryan might get over, which I'm afraid does enter the realm of conspiracy theory without evidence to support it.

leggo

There you go again...where did I say ANYTHING about Vince being afraid Bryan will get over?!!? You're literally imagining **** to argue against now. That's not even close to the point I'm making. And I did ask you nicely before to please take time to understand my point before posting again.

Of course you can cite someone as a credible source when they're doing what they do well. If we're talking future booking plans? Meltzer is your main man, that's his domain and he has years of a track record of getting it right there. If we're talking health? He's the guy who didn't even bother to Google what bipolar was before ruining JBL's career with accusations that actually aren't possibly true. It's like how a football journalist can be good at transfer gossip because they've got great sources but awful at analysing tactics because they've never been in a position where what they thought about tactics meant ****, it's really not that complicated.

Vince can't 'circumvent' his doctor because the doctor is not in a position of authority over Vince, the doctor advises Vince and Vince makes the final call. And while it's adorable that you say stuff like "Vince, Bryan, Dave and I feel this way" like you're a part of the conversation, you're literally the only person in said conversation OR on boards who seems to not understand that power dynamic.

Once again: Dr Maroon does not run WWE. If Vince said tomorrow that he was happy with another doctor's findings and Bryan could now wrestle, Dr Maroon wouldn't run in waving a piece of paper causing everyone else to stop what they're doing and say "Sorry Vince, but the doc said..." I know you read a tweet where Meltzer said it's Maroon's call, not Vince's, but Meltzer was not reporting there that Maroon now had more authority than Vince in WWE now. That's not what he meant. Nobody thinks that except you apparently and it's extraordinary how you keep making that point tbh.

When Meltzer makes arguments about WWE's legal tactics re the concussion lawsuit: that's his opinion! He's not a lawyer, he's never won a legal case in his life, and his opinion can be wrong. This is the same man who claimed that Kenny Omega was a bigger draw than John Cena on Twitter a few weeks ago then deleted the tweets when his followers all made fun of him. Vince's lawyer could ring him up and say "We can make the Bryan thing work by doing X, Y and Z..." Because Dave is a wrestling journalist (close enough to the bottom rung of journalism btw, right between being a golf journalist and reporting about the cutest puppy at a dog show) and not a lawyer, and he doesn't do basic research into other elements of his stories (see bipolar), he's at a loss to know if this is possible. He's just regurgitating what one source told him ad nauseum.

Monokne

Even on Wrestling Observer Radio when he has more than 280 characters to play with, Dave gives a more nuanced take on the situation. Of course Dr Maroon has an influence but ultimately, it's Vince's decision who gets in the ring. He can just ignore Maroon should he choose to.

Bryan is very much the victim of circumstance here, in terms of his desire to wrestle. Were the WWE not in a class action lawsuit about this right now and had Dr Maroon not been portrayed as though he were dismissive of the impact of concussions in the whole Mike Webster scandal & the 'Concussion' movie, neither party would be backed into a corner where they have to be so extraordinarily vigilant.