School Text Books-Free in Other Countries

whitesheep

Hi Was just wondering are school text books free in other countries? Is this buying you school text books an Irish Special offer?

Shenshen

I'm not sure if that's nationwide, but in my primary and secondary school in Germany, the school would lend you the books. You got them for free at the beginning of the year, and returned them at the end.
If you damaged them by tearing out pages, or writing in them, or in any other way, the school would ask your parents to pay for the replacement.

I remember some had these exercises where you'd fill in gaps in a text. If we had to do those, the teacher would hand out copies of the page in question so we wouldn't damage the book.

The only books we had to buy were the novels we read in language classes (German, English, French and Latin in my case), but there's a publishing house in Germany that's doing the books that can be chosen from the curriculum really cheaply, similar to penguin only even cheaper, so you could pick those up for around €2 - 3.

gctest50

Huge scam

One school tried some wonky HP tablet computers and declared it a failure



meanwhile:

donegaLroad

years ago in a local primary school, there was a book rental scheme where parents could pay a nominal amount for the use of the books for the year. I think this came to an end when the dept decided to issue new editions of books at the start of every year.

suicide_circus

We don't care for free school books here.
We prefer the having really expensive houses and a four year wait to have an ingrown toenail removed.

PowerToWait

donegaLroad wrote: »

years ago in a local primary school, there was a book rental scheme where parents could pay a nominal amount for the use of the books for the year. I think this came to an end when the dept decided to issue new editions of books at the start of every year.

Many schools run rental schemes. The DOE have nothing to do with the publication of school books.

beveragelady

Why would anybody bother to compile a textbook and get it published if it's just going to be distributed for free? Would you trust the Dept of Ed to employ the best person for the job and turn out a quality product at the state's expense? At least the current (flawed, expensive) system allows for competition and ongoing improvements to books.
It's a business, that's why they're not free.

Oldtree

Weight of the books is ridiculous too. Kids struggling to take the bag into school.

Would it be so difficult to put the books online so they would be easily accessible through the school website at home, for homework. Dawwwwwww......

hognef

In Norway all books are completely free in primary and lower secondary school (up to age ~16, the minimum age at which you can leave school). You pay for your own books beyond that, though the tuition continues to be free all the way, including at university level.

hognef

beveragelady wrote: »

Why would anybody bother to compile a textbook and get it published if it's just going to be distributed for free?

Distribution to pupils free of charge doesn't mean the books weren't acquired at a cost earlier in the chain. The author and publisher get paid regardless, it's just a question of who pays.

beveragelady

hognef wrote: »

Distribution to pupils free of charge doesn't mean the books weren't acquired at a cost earlier in the chain. The author and publisher get paid regardless, it's just a question of who pays.

The Dept of Ed pays my wages, but there's no way in hell I'd trust them to choose the most suitable school books. There are some really terrible books out there as it is, I can't imagine how standards would slip if the dept had purchasing power.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Kids cost money stop acting like this is new information

Church on Tuesday

The constant new editions of school textbooks is simply a money racket.

They do not come cheap.

I remember when I was in secondary and I had a textbook handed down to me by a cousin. Exact same information as the new edition. Wasn't allowed use it though because it wasn't the new edition.

donegaLroad

PowerToWait wrote: »

Many schools run rental schemes. The DOE have nothing to do with the publication of school books.

they are in charge of the curriculum though. Who is in charge of assigning which books to each year?

Mrs OBumble

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's nationwide, but in my primary and secondary school in Germany, the school would lend you the books. You got them for free at the beginning of the year, and returned them at the end.
If you damaged them by tearing out pages, or writing in them, or in any other way, the school would ask your parents to pay for the replacement.

I remember some had these exercises where you'd fill in gaps in a text. If we had to do those, the teacher would hand out copies of the page in question so we wouldn't damage the book.

The only books we had to buy were the novels we read in language classes (German, English, French and Latin in my case), but there's a publishing house in Germany that's doing the books that can be chosen from the curriculum really cheaply, similar to penguin only even cheaper, so you could pick those up for around €2 - 3.

Pretty much the same in New Zealand, except that novels are lent out too.

Publishers here must have good bribes out to teachers to get the schools not to do the rental scheme and always choose new editions.

VeggieHugger

As far as I am aware, teachers generally decide what series of books will be used, but this would be decided at staff meetings having come to a general consensus. (My knowledge generally relates to primary schools).

As an example, take primary maths books. You won't have the first class teacher deciding to use e.g. Planet Maths, a Folens textbook, and the second class teacher using Maths Matters from EdCo, while the third class teacher goes for CJ Fallon's Busy at Maths. They will all be using the set from the same publisher, e.g. Busy at Maths from Infants right up to 6th class.

Given that there are a range of subjects taught in school, it is inevitable that new editions need to be produced from time to time. Any decent school will try to stagger the introduction of new editions or series of books, so that parents don't get hit with having to buy brand new editions of books in the one go.

I would think very few schools do not have book rental schemes at this stage, especially as all primary schools have been offering funding from the school book rental scheme capital fund. But many schools still use the workbook style of books where the children have to write in the books, which then can't be re-used. It's a toss-up between using workbooks or making the children write in separate copies, which is a lot slower.

As to the weight of books, this is true and is something people have complained about for years. Personally I think the school day should be a little longer in order for children to spend time revising the work they did during the day, and then no homework should be given, meaning there would be no need for the children to be lugging piles of books in and out of school.

beveragelady

donegaLroad wrote: »

they are in charge of the curriculum though. Who is in charge of assigning which books to each year?

It depends on the subject and what's available, but in general the teachers choose the books. I usually choose based on a number of factors, including content quality, price, availability second-hand and the potential for future use. Thing is, we have a new curriculum being phased in for JC and that means new content in some subjects.

James Bond Junior

The books, copies and supplies on my classes booklist cost about 83c a day assuming you buy them new. I think the return on that money is pretty good to be fair.

Weepsie

Oldtree wrote: »

Weight of the books is ridiculous too. Kids struggling to take the bag into school.

Would it be so difficult to put the books online so they would be easily accessible through the school website at home, for homework. Dawwwwwww......

Hmm it might surprise you but there's an awful lot of families without such access at home.

beveragelady

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Publishers here must have good bribes out to teachers to get the schools not to do the rental scheme and always choose new editions.

HAH! I bloody wish.

Never got so much as a free pen from the reps.

donegaLroad

beveragelady wrote: »

It depends on the subject and what's available, but in general the teachers choose the books. I usually choose based on a number of factors, including content quality, price, availability second-hand and the potential for future use. Thing is, we have a new curriculum being phased in for JC and that means new content in some subjects.

In that case could you use the same books every year for as long as is possible to do so, and start a book rental scheme for the class, rather than selecting different books every year? (maybe you do already)

gctest50

Weepsie wrote: »

Hmm it might surprise you but there's an awful lot of families without such access at home.

Disk space is not a problem these days

They can have all their books on the device


bad example but anyway, Hamlet, few hundred kilobytes :

https://www.goodreads.com/ebooks/download/1420.Hamlet

MilesMorales1

In England they are. Well they're loaned, and you give them back at the end of the year.

beveragelady

donegaLroad wrote: »

In that case could you use the same books every year for as long as is possible to do so, and start a book rental scheme for the class, rather than selecting different books every year? (maybe you do already)

Of course we do. In fact I've taken to buying class sets of novels myself, with my own money, and lending them out. Then the dept go and change the prescribed texts so my effort and money is wasted.

There are other practicalities too. No matter what, books come back in worse shape then they were given out. The number of students doing a subject can change. Then you find that you have to replace a whole set, or at least a whole class, because the older edition is no longer available and it's impossible to teach a class out of two different books.

Look, as somebody pointed out, everybody knows that kids are expensive. Asking the state to pay for them means that, once again, the user gets off lightly while another slice is taken out of my paycheque. If you don't want to pay for schoolbooks, consider not having kids. If you already have kids, start saving early instead of looking baffled and hard-done-by when September comes around and the book bill lands. Surely you knew, when the first pregnancy test came up positive, that some day you'd need to pay for schoolbooks?

endacl

Oldtree wrote: »

Weight of the books is ridiculous too. Kids struggling to take the bag into school.

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/3308338/Trail/searchtext%3ECABIN+BAG.htm

James Bond Junior

Oldtree wrote: »

Weight of the books is ridiculous too. Kids struggling to take the bag into school.

I find that kids will never empty their bags of things they don't need. I give on average 3 pieces of homework a night which involves maths book and copy, Irish book and copy and 2 English readers and a copy. Net weight about 750g. Take in a pencil case and what should be an empty lunchbox to bring it to a kilo.

However if you look in a typical childs bag there will be a minimum of 3 other books which are not needed and various other accoutrements. I find it a bit hard to take when parents complain of a heavy bag yet children never empty them of whats not needed.

The Rape of Lucretia

Well, I dont think its true to say they are 'free' anywhere. Its just a question of who pays for them: the parents who chose to have the children, or, all taxpayers indiscriminately whether they have many or no children.

donegaLroad

beveragelady wrote: »

Of course we do. In fact I've taken to buying class sets of novels myself, with my own money, and lending them out. Then the dept go and change the prescribed texts so my effort and money is wasted.

There are other practicalities too. No matter what, books come back in worse shape then they were given out. The number of students doing a subject can change. Then you find that you have to replace a whole set, or at least a whole class, because the older edition is no longer available and it's impossible to teach a class out of two different books.

Look, as somebody pointed out, everybody knows that kids are expensive. Asking the state to pay for them means that, once again, the user gets off lightly while another slice is taken out of my paycheque. If you don't want to pay for schoolbooks, consider not having kids. If you already have kids, start saving early instead of looking baffled and hard-done-by when September comes around and the book bill lands. Surely you knew, when the first pregnancy test came up positive, that some day you'd need to pay for schoolbooks?

There are teachers in my family, and one of them started a book rental scheme in a class of 5th and 6th year children at a local National school. The scheme worked well for some years, then my family member moved on to another school. This was a long time ago so I don't know how things have changed now and if this book rental scheme would even be feasible.

Its not too bad where we are, national school children's books are not too expensive.

On the other hand, my cousin in the US claims that his books for the first semester in Uni, was about the same cost as the fees for 1 year at college in Ireland... but thats a different fish out of a different kettle.

Shenshen

donegaLroad wrote: »

On the other hand, my cousin in the US claims that his books for the first semester in Uni, was about the same cost as the fees for 1 year at college in Ireland... but thats a different fish out of a different kettle.

Depending on what she was studying, I'd be inclined to believe that.
Scientific textbooks at that level require a ton of expertise and research, with a rather miniscule circulation, it's not entirely uncommon for one of them to cost a couple of hundreds. Used to really shock me at first when I started working in a library.

rainbowtrout

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Publishers here must have good bribes out to teachers to get the schools not to do the rental scheme and always choose new editions.

Teachers get nothing for choosing a particular book. All the main book publishers in Ireland are signed up to an agreement where a new edition can only be published four years after the previous edition. The previous edition has to remain in publication for a further two years after that.

Speaking as a teacher and book author.

Shenshen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Teachers get nothing for choosing a particular book. All the main book publishers in Ireland are signed up to an agreement where a new edition can only be published four years after the previous edition. The previous edition has to remain in publication for a further two years after that.

Speaking as a teacher and book author.

Wow, that's a really short lifecycle.
It possibly makes sense for things like biology, politics and geography, maybe even to some extend recent history, but does the teaching of foreign languages for example change so drastically every 6 years? Does mathematics move on at such a pace that new knowledge needs to be added at such short intervals?

Just asking, because when I started learning English back home in Germany in 1985, the characters in the book we were using were still listening to the Beatles and wearing bell-bottom trousers

rainbowtrout

Shenshen wrote: »

Wow, that's a really short lifecycle.
It possibly makes sense for things like biology, politics and geography, maybe even to some extend recent history, but does the teaching of foreign languages for example change so drastically every 6 years? Does mathematics move on at such a pace that new knowledge needs to be added at such short intervals?

Just asking, because when I started learning English back home in Germany in 1985, the characters in the book we were using were still listening to the Beatles and wearing bell-bottom trousers

Well I'd agree, and it's a minimum and some books remain in print long after the 6 year minimum.

Some books change as a result of a change in curriculum, but from the publishers point of view, if a book isn't selling well they probably pull it and replace it with a new version (possibly by a different author) to try and take back some of the market share.

Oldtree

Weepsie wrote: »

Hmm it might surprise you but there's an awful lot of families without such access at home.

Don't see many people without phones these days, so yes I would be surprised.

Oldtree

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I find that kids will never empty their bags of things they don't need. I give on average 3 pieces of homework a night which involves maths book and copy, Irish book and copy and 2 English readers and a copy. Net weight about 750g. Take in a pencil case and what should be an empty lunchbox to bring it to a kilo.

However if you look in a typical childs bag there will be a minimum of 3 other books which are not needed and various other accoutrements. I find it a bit hard to take when parents complain of a heavy bag yet children never empty them of whats not needed.

I had thought of that but 5 pieces of homework, 5 books needed. Lunchbox and water and pencil case and reading book. Football carried under other arm. I'll weigh my child's bag tomorrow and get back.

Victor

beveragelady wrote: »

Why would anybody bother to compile a textbook and get it published if it's just going to be distributed for free?

The publisher would still get paid. They just wouldn't get paid to do a new edition every 1-3 years.

byhookorbycrook

The DES sent out a survey a few years ago to see which schools had any form of a rental scheme up and running. Our school did. due to massive fundraising by the school community. The DES then turned around and refused to give any grant aid to schools who had already set one up. Talk about a slap in the face for the parents and teachers who had worked so hard.

Rental schemes are incredibly expensive to set up, you have to pay for the books up front, which is a massive cost, especially as schools have to struggle so hard to pay for basics like heat, water and light. There is a new curriculum being introduced at present, which is going to mean many books in rental schemes will become obsolete. This isn't the fault of the schools, so make your views known to the DES.

beveragelady

Victor wrote: »

The publisher would still get paid. They just wouldn't get paid to do a new edition every 1-3 years.

Do you mean if there was a state-run textbook publisher? Or if schools all ran book rental schemes?

happywithlife

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I find that kids will never empty their bags of things they don't need. I give on average 3 pieces of homework a night which involves maths book and copy, Irish book and copy and 2 English readers and a copy. Net weight about 750g. Take in a pencil case and what should be an empty lunchbox to bring it to a kilo.

However if you look in a typical childs bag there will be a minimum of 3 other books which are not needed and various other accoutrements. I find it a bit hard to take when parents complain of a heavy bag yet children never empty them of whats not needed.

I have an issue this year with son's school bag. Have communicated with school 3 times already this year. Weighed it recently and it was 13lbs. He is a skinny light 7 yr old. Absolutely ridiculous. And there was NO extra unessentials in it. Several bulky workbooks for the sake of doing a box on a page. He has three folders on the go all which must come home every night apparently. Problem is added to by fact he is in split class and they come together again for maths etc so he has two to three teachers depending on the given day

joebloggs32

The capital investment to establish a book rental scheme at 2nd level is massive. Factor in then wear and tear of said books, curriculum change and rise and fall in popularity of subjects and student numbers it is not a simple operation. That is even before mentioning the problem of books going out of print which is a right pain in the ar$e.
As others have said the new Junior Cert now being phased in will mean schools with rental schemes will now have to acquire vast amounts of new books with little or no funding from the department.
My school does not operate a rental scheme bit by my calculations the purchase of books is no more expensive than other local schools that do offer rental. Yes the outlay in 1st year is substantial, but if some books are bought second hand it reduces this. Similarly if you sell on some second hand at the end of your 3rd Year you recoup some of the original investment.
Ps the arrival of educate.ie has really shook up the market. The cost of past exam papers were scandalous before the arrival of educate.

Glenbhoy

Certainly in the UK all books are free, as are exercise books for kids to complete, pens, pencils etc etc, I was shocked when I found out such basic equipment had to be purchased.

beveragelady

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Certainly in the UK all books are free, as are exercise books for kids to complete, pens, pencils etc etc, I was shocked when I found out such basic equipment had to be purchased.

It always has to be purchased by someone. Either parents pay directly for their own children's equipment or everybody pays, whether they have sproglets or not, indirectly. I'd rather parents shoulder the cost and the responsibility. It's better than if I shoulder the cost and some state agency is handed responsibility.