World Marathon Majors For Masters

The Bin Man

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but I'm sure it will appeal to some.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/11/world-marathon-majors-creating-global-age-group-ranking-system-age-group-world-championships/

Krusty_Clown

Hmm... Which demographic has the most disposable income? Masters.
How can we squeeze more money out of this demographic? Let's invent a league and give them points for every race they pay to enter.

Perhaps I'm being skeptical, but look at the qualifying races. They're either one of the marathon majors or a Rock and Roll event (with a few other big commercial races thrown in). Perhaps if the list of qualifying races were from the list of AIMS or IAAF certified races, otherwise it just seems like an attempt to bolster numbers in the Rock and Roll race series (because the majors always sell out anyway (pardon the pun)).

Testosterscone

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hmm... Which demographic has the most disposable income? Masters.
How can we squeeze more money out of this demographic? Let's invent a league and give them points for every race they pay to enter.

Perhaps I'm being skeptical, but look at the qualifying races. They're either one of the marathon majors or a Rock and Roll event (with a few other big commercial races thrown in). Perhaps if the list of qualifying races were from the list of AIMS or IAAF certified races, otherwise it just seems like an attempt to bolster numbers in the Rock and Roll race series (because the majors always sell out anyway (pardon the pun)).

This group have also bought the Iron Man brand as well as the WMM and Rock and Roll looks they are trying to adopt the same "world championship" model

Just wait till they start with the Tatoo's

The Bin Man

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hmm... Which demographic has the most disposable income? Masters.
How can we squeeze more money out of this demographic? Let's invent a league and give them points for every race they pay to enter.

Perhaps I'm being skeptical, but look at the qualifying races. They're either one of the marathon majors or a Rock and Roll event (with a few other big commercial races thrown in). Perhaps if the list of qualifying races were from the list of AIMS or IAAF certified races, otherwise it just seems like an attempt to bolster numbers in the Rock and Roll race series (because the majors always sell out anyway (pardon the pun)).

I see your points. Not so sure it's a bad thing though: a decent range of good races in there, some of which many people on here have competed in.

No problem with a business trying to increase profit/brand awareness etc, especially if the product is ok. To target this demographic makes excellent business sense.

The Majors are pretty decent qualifying races. I suspect, over time, more races will be included to the qualifying list. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out; an innovative idea that I think will go down well.

I'll have an each way bet on you in 45+ cat.

Murph_D

Having to race two marathons in a year to ‘qualify’ is revealing all the same. Looks like they’re trying to piggyback on popularity (and masters bucketlistability) of Majors to cross-promote and sell entries to other big but less desirable races. It’s not clear how exclusive this World Championship race will be - open to the ‘top ranked runners’ in each category but doesn’t say how many. 10? 100? 1,000? And how much it will cost for the privilege of participating. Masters-only events tend to be undersubscribed so I doubt it will be difficult to qualify if you run the required two events.

But good luck to them. There’s nothing wrong with the idea of a meaningful world masters marathon at least. (World Masters Athletics meet has a HM but no full.)

The Bin Man

Murph_D wrote: »

Having to race two marathons in a year to ‘qualify’ is revealing all the same. Looks like they’re trying to piggyback on popularity (and masters bucketlistability) of Majors to cross-promote and sell entries to other big but less desirable races. It’s not clear how exclusive this World Championship race will be - open to the ‘top ranked runners’ in each category but doesn’t say how many. 10? 100? 1,000? And how much it will cost for the privilege of participating. Masters-only events tend to be undersubscribed so I doubt it will be difficult to qualify if you run the required two events.

But good luck to them. There’s nothing wrong with the idea of a meaningful world masters marathon at least. (World Masters Athletics meet has a HM but no full.)

It is revealing but if you look how the World Marathon Majors work for younger runners and compare it the version for masters, it looks like the version for masters is more favourable, extensive, and inclusive (probably so they get more money):


https://www.worldmarathonmajors.com/about/how-it-works/

Regarding how exclusive/inclusive it is, that's a good point. Also, what if during the qualifying time you fall into say the m40-m44 cat but then when the final takes place, you're in the m45-m49 cat? I think they'll announce details about these issues soon.

Ultimately, it'll be about the sharp end: the final itself will probably be included within a big event, so numbers won't be an issue. I think the event will attract the best age cat runners and that should make for some interesting racing. Maybe, as time ticks along, we'll see the whole masters side of running develop further: sponsorship, decent prize money, and the trimmings...

Testosterscone

Murph_D wrote: »

But good luck to them. There’s nothing wrong with the idea of a meaningful world masters marathon at least. (World Masters Athletics meet has a HM but no full.)

Have they gotten rid? There was a full back in 2016?

The Bin Man wrote: »

Maybe, as time ticks along, we'll see the whole masters side of running develop further: sponsorship, decent prize money, and the trimmings...

Highly doubtful since these were the group that has been slowly whittling down the prize funds for elites in both WMM and th Rock and Roll series.

The top masters will continue to compete as close to the top as possible and largely ignore these categories (Geb, Lagat, Castille) much like many do on a domestic level.

RayCun

Testosterscone wrote: »

This group have also bought the Iron Man brand as well as the WMM and Rock and Roll looks they are trying to adopt the same "world championship" model

Just wait till they start with the Tatoo's

Yeah, sounds like they're trying to have a marathon equivalent of Kona, and here's a bunch of races that you're supposed to do in hopes of qualifying for that.

As Krusty said, the idea here is not athletic excellence, it's selling stuff to people old enough to have money.

The Bin Man

Testosterscone wrote: »

Have they gotten rid? There was a full back in 2016?



Highly doubtful since these were the group that has been slowly whittling down the prize funds for elites in both WMM and th Rock and Roll series.

The top masters will continue to compete as close to the top as possible and largely ignore these categories (Geb, Lagat, Castille) much like many do on a domestic level.

Not saying this group will match the million dollar payout they give to the younger guys:

"Athletes score points for their finishing place in each race with the top male and female marathon runners at the end of each cycle receiving an equal share of the US$1 million."

(Decent prize ?) I'm saying, this may well open the door for similar events with more trimmings - for masters...

Yes, of course the top masters will continue to compete, but I think you'll find the top masters jumping in on this one. But only time will tell.

The Bin Man

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, sounds like they're trying to have a marathon equivalent of Kona, and here's a bunch of races that you're supposed to do in hopes of qualifying for that.

As Krusty said, the idea here is not athletic excellence, it's selling stuff to people old enough to have money.

And what's wrong with trying to make more money?

RayCun

The Bin Man wrote: »

And what's wrong with trying to make more money?

Why should we get excited about someone's attempt to make more money?

RayCun

Didn't someone from this forum, way back when, compete in some triathlon championship in England? Representing Ireland! Except you had to pay for everything yourself, and none of the top people were interested, so they basically went through the list until they found people who were willing to pay...

Testosterscone

The Bin Man wrote: »

Not saying this group will match the million dollar payout they give to the younger guys:

"Athletes score points for their finishing place in each race with the top male and female marathon runners at the end of each cycle receiving an equal share of the US$1 million."

(Decent prize ?) I'm saying, this may well open the door for similar events with more trimmings - for masters...

Yes, of course the top masters will continue to compete, but I think you'll find the top masters jumping in on this one. But only time will tell.

Actually since the Wanda group have taken over that pricing structure has been changed. They now offer winners 280,000 (previously 500,000) and 2nd and 3rd also receive prizes to the tune of 325,000 total down 175,000 from both the men's and women's side each. There is a charitable donation (280,000 so still short of the 350,000 saved) included to offset the perception of cutting prize money and make it look like they money is just being moved elsewhere but in reality this will just change number of charity entries allocation I would imagine to offset this

They have also cut the elite purse and entries in many of the RnR races over the last few years.

Prize money is only going one way with this company.

Djoucer

RayCun wrote: »

Didn't someone from this forum, way back when, compete in some triathlon championship in England? Representing Ireland! Except you had to pay for everything yourself, and none of the top people were interested, so they basically went through the list until they found people who were willing to pay...

Was going to make a similar comment. Sounds remarkably like the triathlon champs nonsense where basically people were paying to race in an Irish vest regardless of ability. Biggest barrier with most of these initiatives is money rather than ability.

Be interesting to see how it develops.

The Bin Man

RayCun wrote: »

Why should we get excited about someone's attempt to make more money?

Nobody's asking you to get excited about anything. I think it's interesting that they have decided to add more value to their product (The Majors) and develop it to include masters.

The Majors won't make much more out of this as they're turning people away all the time. And if they do make more money, good luck to them. As for the other races (another way to qualify for the final, if you can't get into the over subscribed Majors), I don't see any problems with them making more money. In fact, the more money they make, the better. Good luck to them.

I think most top masters (marathon) will see this as a good thing and will be there. I also think, a good few from here will end up in the final and that might trigger some degree of excitement.

The Bin Man

Testosterscone wrote: »

Actually since the Wanda group have taken over that pricing structure has been changed. They now offer winners 280,000 (previously 500,000) and 2nd and 3rd also receive prizes to the tune of 325,000 total down 175,000 from both the men's and women's side each. There is a charitable donation (280,000 so still short of the 350,000 saved) included to offset the perception of cutting prize money and make it look like they money is just being moved elsewhere but in reality this will just change number of charity entries allocation I would imagine to offset this

They have also cut the elite purse and entries in many of the RnR races over the last few years.

Prize money is only going one way with this company.

Yeah, I read that on Letsrun a while back. Still, a million bucks is a pretty decent prize. It's a shame they are lowering the prize money but that's the world we live in. People will vote with their feet: if they don't like it, they'll enter other races. I suspect though, their feet will be in these races and they'll prove successful.

Testosterscone

The Bin Man wrote: »

Yeah, I read that on Letsrun a while back. Still, a million bucks is a pretty decent prize. It's a shame they are lowering the prize money but that's the world we live in. People will vote with their feet: if they don't like it, they'll enter other races. I suspect though, their feet will be in these races and they'll prove successful.

The only problem with people voting with their feet is that top masters will enter top senior races which are also the marathon majors so the addition of the masters won't actually have much of an impact on the standard of masters running in these events outside giving a few more bragging rights similar to those ultra records (ala the 777 records people use to garner motivational speaking roles etc) or the IM Kona crowd

The Bin Man

Testosterscone wrote: »

The only problem with people voting with their feet is that top masters will enter top senior races which are also the marathon majors so the addition of the masters won't actually have much of an impact on the standard of masters running in these events outside giving a few more bragging rights similar to those ultra records (ala the 777 records people use to garner motivational speaking roles etc) or the IM Kona crowd

You might be right but I don't think so. I think we'll see much more competition at the sharper end of masters' races.

Also, I think the kudos will appeal. And, if by winning the World Major Marathon Champs (or whatever it is called) a runner is able to benefit from trimmings (speaking roles, sponsorship etc) this a good thing, don't you think? Or do you have a problem with somebody benefiting from their hard work and success?

I take on board your points: you seem to have some issues with the whole set up-that's fair enough. Maybe you should write to the organisers or get some sort of movement going to speak up against the corporate machines ruining athletics.

RayCun

The Bin Man wrote: »

Maybe you should write to the organisers or get some sort of movement going to speak up against the corporate machines ruining athletics.

Or maybe we could just ignore them?

The more people repeat press releases about how this is a brilliant thing for masters athletes and will raise standards etc etc blah blah blah, the more successful they will be.

The more people see it as just another way to part fools from their money, the less credibility it will have, and the more likely it is to go away.

Testosterscone

The Bin Man wrote: »

You might be right but I don't think so. I think we'll see much more competition at the sharper end of masters' races.

Also, I think the kudos will appeal. And, if by winning the World Major Marathon Champs (or whatever it is called) a runner is able to benefit from trimmings (speaking roles, sponsorship etc) this a good thing, don't you think? Or do you have a problem with somebody benefiting from their hard work and success?

I take on board your points: you seem to have some issues with the whole set up-that's fair enough. Maybe you should write to the organisers or get some sort of movement going to speak up against the corporate machines ruining athletics.

No problem with people benefitting from there hard work but when the majority of full time athletes in the sport are living below the poverty line I think money should be invested in the sport as opposed to diluted and diverted from the sport.

While they have made a decent living for themselves how much has actually been contributed to the sport by the likes of the Gerry Duffy's, the Sinead Kane's, Mimi Andersons or the Rob Young's (this is no a cricitism of them but rather the current state of the sports)

Similarly the number of poor coaches and Personal trainers offering running coaching packages and charging in a sport which only has one paid coach within the AAI set up.

Everyone is taking their piece from this sport and we then complain for underperformances or lack of development. It's more important for people to get kudo s and work outside the sport than actually be a positive member of the running/track and field community.

Haha your grand J I'll stick to supporting and developing the sport as I have always done and will leave those Grand Master Champions away in their quest for eternal glory

The Bin Man

RayCun wrote: »

Or maybe we could just ignore them?

The more people repeat press releases about how this is a brilliant thing for masters athletes and will raise standards etc etc blah blah blah, the more successful they will be.

The more people see it as just another way to part fools from their money, the less credibility it will have, and the more likely it is to go away.

What's wrong with recognising the top masters at the Majors?

Sure, isn't there a thread on Boards every year explaining how to cheat your way into London (a Major) and deprive honest Brits of their rightful places? It seems to me that there is huge demand for the Majors, even to the extent that people are prepared to be duplicitous to gain entry. But yeah, if you have no interest in it then maybe you shouldn't post anymore on here and let the thread die...

RayCun

The Bin Man wrote: »

What's wrong with recogniing the top masters at the Majors?

Has anyone said there is something wrong with that? As far as I know, all the majors report on the runners in each category, and there are prizes for the top masters. Isn't that recognising the top masters?

The thing that people are sceptical of is a new proposal, and the fact that you are trying to pretend they are the same thing shows how credible it is.

The Bin Man wrote: »

Sure, isn't there a thread on Boards every year explaining how to cheat your way into London (a Major) and deprive honest Brits of their rightful places? It seems to me that their is huge demand for the Majors, even to the extent that people are prepared to be duplicitous to gain entry. But yeah, if you have no interest in it then maybe you shouldn't post anymore on here and let the thread die...

Yeah, again, "people are interested in [this thing] so therefore they must be interested in [this other thing]" is weak soup.

Are you trying to ramp up interest in this thing because you have decided you are going to be the winner of the first world championships in 2020?

The Bin Man

Testosterscone wrote: »

No problem with people benefitting from there hard work but when the majority of full time athletes in the sport are living below the poverty line I think money should be invested in the sport as opposed to diluted and diverted from the sport.

While they have made a decent living for themselves how much has actually been contributed to the sport by the likes of the Gerry Duffy's, the Sinead Kane's, Mimi Andersons or the Rob Young's (this is no a cricitism of them but rather the current state of the sports)

Similarly the number of poor coaches and Personal trainers offering running coaching packages and charging in a sport which only has one paid coach within the AAI set up.

Everyone is taking their piece from this sport and we then complain for underperformances or lack of development. It's more important for people to get kudo s and work outside the sport than actually be a positive member of the running/track and field community.

Haha your grand J I'll stick to supporting and developing the sport as I have always done and will leave those Grand Master Champions away in their quest for eternal glory

I have no idea about the people you are talking about. I've read the ructions about Mimi.

On there only being one paid coach in AAI, why don't the clubs do something about it? That's a genuine question too. If the clubs feel that AAI should have paid coaches, then why not do something about it?

Maybe people aren't happy with the way the sport is run through the club system/AAI and therefore have opted to vote with their feet. They've moved outside the system.

Your humbleness is admirable.

The Bin Man

RayCun wrote: »

Has anyone said there is something wrong with that? As far as I know, all the majors report on the runners in each category, and there are prizes for the top masters. Isn't that recognising the top masters?

The thing that people are sceptical of is a new proposal, and the fact that you are trying to pretend they are the same thing shows how credible it is.



Yeah, again, "people are interested in [this thing] so therefore they must be interested in [this other thing]" is weak soup.

Are you trying to ramp up interest in this thing because you have decided you are going to be the winner of the first world championships in 2020?

Just to be clear, I have no vested interest in this event/thing. I run the parkrun every now and then and that's the limit of my running ability. Also, I'm too young to enter.

You lost me with your other points.

El Caballo

Murph_D

Testosterscone wrote: »

Have they gotten rid? There was a full back in 2016?

HM only in 2017 and in 2018 schedule too.

OOnegative

The Bin Man wrote: »

Also, I'm too young to enter.
.

Perfected time travel have you..........

The Bin Man

OOnegative wrote: »

Perfected time travel have you..........

That's a strange post.

Krusty_Clown

The Bin Man wrote: »

What's wrong with recognising the top masters at the Majors?

Looking at it from a more practical perspective, like many other masters, I just couldn't justify committing to 6 months of training to throw my lot in with a Rock 'n' Roll marathon, so I'd be looking at trying to hit two marathon majors in a year. Just racing two marathons in a year is a gamble that hasn't paid of for me personally in recent years. But assuming one could: Berlin and Boston are already closed for entry, London and Tokyo are lotteries, which leaves New York and Chicago, which are just weeks apart. If they expanded to the IAAF labelled races (59 marathons in total), then it could be a real masters competition (all of the majors are IAAF accredited). But restricting the list of qualifying races to a subset that are targeted at commercial success means that it is not a real masters competition, but more of a race promotion opportunity.

I think it would be slightly more fair it if were restricted to just the marathon majors - at least it would be a level playing field. If all of the majors offered guaranteed entry based on achieving specific age-graded time goals, then at least master athletes would have a choice of the six races, but sadly they do not.

Maybe it's just my anti-rock-n'roll vibe coming to the fore, but it just seems like there's already a set of criteria for establishing the validity of races for the purposes of qualification (IAAF certification), so why not use it rather than make it seem like a maky-uppy competition targeted at making a corporation some extra money? If the Rock 'n' roll races became IAAF-certified, then than would be an even better result. Would be great to see G'OH targeting this when he hits his next age grouping in a couple of years.

RayCun

London and Tokyo are lotteries

Tokyo has a guaranteed entry qualifying time (must be run in an IAAF race)
・Men's Full Marathon 2:21:01 〜 2:45:00
・Women's Full Marathon 2:52:01 〜 3:30:00

maybe not quite guaranteed, they seem to be limiting it to about 300? But selection based on times

Murph_D

"The date and location of the first AbbottWMM Wanda Age Group World Championships in spring 2020 will be announced in due course."

There is no indication of whether these Championships will be held in conjunction with an existing event. I suspect they are after the mass market here (the 'massters' market?) and if there is sufficient mass interest in a masters-only event, that's what they will probably try to create - why wouldn't they? Which means it will be a new event, probably won't be on an ideal course, and thus may be less attractive to the sharp end - unless there is a substantial prize fund, which also has not been announced. A lot of unknowns here, which only fuels speculation.