Dublin is insanity- why did I come back?

Cuddlesworth

super_furry wrote: »

Mortgage repayments on a €450k loan over 30 years will be just under €2k a month. You can’t rent a three-bedroom house for that in most areas in Dublin at this stage. It's mental that it's cheaper to have a mortgage than to rent.

House insurance? Mortgage Assurance? Property Tax? Household maintenance? The buck doesn't stop at the mortgage payments.

pilly

Shelga wrote: »

Giving up far too easily by accepting that I could have afforded 190k but not 234k? Should I be panicking completely and chucking out a bid I know I can’t afford?

I absolutely did not think it would be easy. I’m saying that this is my first foray into the horrible world of buying, and I’m realising that €45k over the asking price is the new norm. I expected €20-30k over asking.

I’m fully prepared to view as many properties as I need to and in every area in the greater Dublin area. My only red line is I won’t buy a 1 bed as you’re giving yourself no flexibility whatsoever.

You said you were giving up on Dublin, not just that bid.

zulutango

I'm so glad I moved from Dublin to Limerick a few years back. Property prices are still pretty ok here and the quality of life is very good for a low cost of living. A lot of people seem to be catching on to it though because even though the prices are low, they are rising faster than anywhere else.

dont bother

OP have you considered Balbriggan? you could get a 3 bed semi D out there for the same price as a one bedroom box in ballymun or finglas. not a very competitive market either and it's on train line for city centre (40 mins journey) and by the sea and it's a nice village/town in itself.

it's considered a "commuter town" but it's actually VERY handy for town compared to other "commuter town" areas.

i'd seriously consider it. Rush and Skerries are other options if you're set on wanting a house - but the convenience for train in Rush is not great - as it's a good 20 minute walk down a country road, or a 7euro taxi from town to station.

Skerries is a bit more pricey too - as is rush, so Balbriggan would be the best bet. only 40 mins to town on train - 25 mins to airport etc etc. you cant go wrong.

me, i bought my gaff, it has now doubled in price and i am in positive equity by over twice my mortgage amount - so i'm selling it and using the profit to buy two gaffs in spain somewhere - one to live in, one to Airbnb. fvck this kip of a country. it's only going to get worse i think

Shelga

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes I see that now. Yes I have money for fees, furniture etc.

I would consider Balbriggan as another poster mentioned- I just know no one there and would feel quite isolated I think. Ruling nothing out though. :-/

LirW

I can see where you're coming from. You just started looking but it is grim.
We closed on our house in August and spent 10 months looking. Started in Dublin in the areas you mentioned, the bidding wars we've seen were beyond depressing (were following on 20 odd houses).
We then started to look in Dundalk, where bidding in our budget was equally insane.

We ended up buying a house in South Wicklow pretty cheap and just did it up. Even though it was a huge move it paid off already because we have he nicest neighbors and the most welcoming community here.

My point is if you feel priced out you have two choices: Stay put or expand the search to the outskirts of Dublin. There is no point in compromising on a 1bed in Ballymun when you can have more bang for your buck with a bit more travel time. It's the biggest purchase of your life after all.

You just started, do your homework and research, don't be discouraged and take more options into account. You will come across a lot more frustrating bidding wars and price hikes but it'll pay off in the end.

April 73

Back in 1999 myself and my fiancé put a deposit on a house. It was a stretch with a mortgage at 3.5 times out income. Neither of us could have bought that house on our own & it was far from the heady prices of South County Dublin. My single income at that stage would barely have run to an apartment then. I don't think things have changed much in twenty years.

You need to stay positive OP. You're not out of the race because you've been outbid on one property. If I were you I'd stay out of bidding wars which drive up prices quickly when 2 or 3 people are bidding. Express an interest in a property, ask the EA to keep you informed but wait til the end when the bidding looks to have stopped to jump in with your bid. Otherwise you're only bidding against yourself & driving up the price.

Tigerandahalf

It is difficult to know where the market will go but buyers are being forced into a very tight situation again.

I really don't think we are in any better position than 2007. People are still paying far too much of their income on a house purchase/rent.

When interest rates go up it is going to leave an awful lot of people squeezed with very little to spend elsewhere. Will the government have to bail people out again with some form of interest relief.

A huge amount of money is tied up in housing as interest rates have been so low. A rate rise would tempt that money back.

Right across the western world from Canada to Australia/NZ and back to UK/Ire prices have risen to crazy levels. It will have to adjust at some stage as wages are nowhere near matching the growth in prices.

These prices will become a big barrier to decent birth rates as people will just realise it is not worth having that extra child.

Big threats like Brexit and Europe going after the corporate tax rate. With the UK gone we will have one less friend on our side in Europe.
If Sterling depreciates further we could lose a lot of manufacturing jobs to the UK and who knows what they will do with their corporate tax rate once out. Other countries will buy the UK's goods once they are cheaper whether they are in the EU or not.

At least if you are renting and things go bad you can bail out. But it is not easy to go down that road if you want a family and once you get that bit older it is harder to get a mortgage.

If you could get a half decent job down the country getting a mortgage might be more realistic. Businesses must be looking to push out as costs in Dublin are only going up.

There is a good road network now so you are never too far away.

LirW

Unfortunately the bigger picture doesn't help people that have a housing need now due to their age, family situation etc.
When people live with their parents, maybe even with kids, they couldn't care less about the bigger global picture and have to find a way to make it work. Some people are simply not in the position to stick it out. And the OP being in a certain age still living in house shares it's somewhat understandable that the initial shock made him anxious.

The market is also not very well prepared for the increasing demand of singles. More and more people choose to be childless or wanting an independent life on their own. Buying property shouldn't be restricted to couples in an ideal world. And the rental market has nothing to offer either with a long term prospect.

Tigerandahalf

LirW wrote: »

Unfortunately the bigger picture doesn't help people that have a housing need now due to their age, family situation etc.
When people live with their parents, maybe even with kids, they couldn't care less about the bigger global picture and have to find a way to make it work. Some people are simply not in the position to stick it out. And the OP being in a certain age still living in house shares it's somewhat understandable that the initial shock made him anxious.

The market is also not very well prepared for the increasing demand of singles. More and more people choose to be childless or wanting an independent life on their own. Buying property shouldn't be restricted to couples in an ideal world. And the rental market has nothing to offer either with a long term prospect.

True but I'd imagine a single person would want maybe an extra room so 2 beds are probably more desirable for a lot of people with friends staying over, storage or maybe renting out a room.

The bedsit market is probably not catered for in fairness since they banned it. But I think that has been relaxed again some bit.

riclad

Its not insanity. dublin is booming , not many houses being built.
high demand low supply =rising prices .
insanity was 2005 when joe bloggs could borrow 10 times his wage to buy
a house in sligo.
now you can borrow may 3 times your income and you need 10 per cent deposit saved at least.
no one forced to live in dublin ,maybe buy something in meath or
maynooth and commute .
Prices now have not reached the heights of the boom in most area,s .

Shelga

Shelga wrote: »

Went to a viewing of a nice enough 2 bedroom apartment in Clare Hall at the weekend. It was advertised for €190k and bidding as of lunchtime yesterday was €224k.

It's just so difficult to stay positive. I am on decent enough money but single- I feel I will never be able to even buy an apartment, much less settle down in a house with children, unless I give up on the idea of living in my home city.

I am in no way picky- that was only the first place I looked at and I would consider nearly all areas to live in. Ballymun and Finglas would be next on my list, I doubt I could afford Santry at this stage, which is where I was considering a couple of months ago.

Is it like this at every viewing? I knew it would go for more than the asking price but €224k for that place is madness.

Just needed to vent. Doesn't sound like there will be any improvement in the next 3-5 years- should I just resign myself to a house share until I'm 35? Why are these our options? Why were our parents able to buy 3 bed semi ds with relative ease 30 years ago? Why is society so much more fractured?

Ok I'm being dramatic- I'll just stop whingeing and keep up the search for a 40m2 one bed box in Ballymun.

Whatever you do dont panic and buy any aul property. I see where you are at and i do feel for you but the demand overall is driving the prices sky high and that useless government is happy to accommodate those profiteering from the market.

riclad

riclad wrote: »

Its not insanity. dublin is booming , not many houses being built.
high demand low supply =rising prices .
insanity was 2005 when joe bloggs could borrow 10 times his wage to buy
a house in sligo.
now you can borrow may 3 times your income and you need 10 per cent deposit saved at least.
no one forced to live in dublin ,maybe buy something in meath or
maynooth and commute .
Prices now have not reached the heights of the boom in most area,s .

Its not as bad but its still something to be cautionable about. It could get out of hand easily enough.

riclad

I dont think the government can stop prices rising in dublin ,
They can ease the rental crisis by building 5-10,ooo social housing units per year.
This is not russia ,its an open economy within the eu.
In theory the central bank can put more strict landing rules in place
if the think prices are rising too high.
i presume you can back because theres a wide range of good jobs in dublin vs say clare or mayo for example.

listermint

Erm.. with all due respect op.

You've gone to one viewing and seen one place and bid on it.

Now your done with Dublin.



Dramatic....

myshirt

I'd like to see us get to a point where 1 X average industrial income plus 0.5 average income per extra room can afford a home, eg 3 bed terraced for 280, or 220 for a 2 bed, and 150-160 for a 1 bed.

I certainly do think that those wishing to buy a 3 bed semi by themselves or a 2 bed apartment by themselves are having a laugh. That is too much property for one person, and we don't want the market functioning in a way that property goes to waste like this. I suppose that is one good thing about this rental market, it has forced us all to make better use of property.

LirW

Well people can buy whatever they want once they can afford it.
I also don't think 2 bedrooms is unreasonable for one person when they intend to live in it for the duration of the mortgage. People still socialise, have hobbies, need extra space for a home office, want to have the option to live together with a future partner without having to sell up.

These apartments often have a floor size of around 60m2, that's fine for 1person longterm and even 2 without feeling cramped.

It's not the 60s anymore where you'd have 8 people in a 70m2 corpo house living...

SarahVOW

Ive just bought in Dublin with my partner. We were looking constantly from March, must have went to 20+ viewings and were seriously bidding on 6 houses.

Got sale agreed mid July, got keys 9 weeks later then spent time doing it up and moved in 3 week ago.

Its massively frustrating and we are lucky to have combined income.

Its a sellers market and its not easy. The figures listed of daft for previously owned places mean very little, use property price register for a proper idea of what places in the area are going for.

A place we were bidding on went for €100k over the asking (3 bed terrace in Crumlin) and another 3 we were interested in went for 50k+ over asking. Also we saw houses that had no bids and sellers wouldn't drop to bellow asking or even accept asking in 1 case as they wanted to hold out.

Good luck with it if you need any advise you can PM though im no expert.

TallGlass

Shelga wrote: »

The place is now €234k... agent pitting us all against each other- maybe I’m done with Dublin.

Sorry not a hope in hell would I be paying 234k for an apartment.

.......

This post has been deleted.

TallGlass

....... wrote: »

But plenty of people will because they cant afford anything else.

I totally understand that. But there are houses to be had for that price. Besides, do you even own the apartment, don't the management still own it? You've to pay them fees, which they don't seem to do much with. Some of the blocks around me need a good paint and a slap of varnish on the wood.

.......

This post has been deleted.

spaceHopper

Shelga wrote: »

The place is now €234k... agent pitting us all against each other- maybe I’m done with Dublin.

Did the EA ask if you have finance in place? If they didn't

Rule 1 when ever dealing with a EA is state "I have saving and mortgage approval, have you checked if the other bidders have".

You aren't bedding against dreamers so can't close but are driving up the price. Make the EA go back an check. That might knock out a few bidders.

gar32

OP

I have bought twice in Dublin in the last 20 years and I wanted a 2 bed like yourself but did not have enjoy income to buy one. I bought a 1 bed in the city center knowing that if I meet someone and wanted a family I could rent it out. I have paid the mortgage early and now the incoming covers 80% of the rent of the 2 bed I rent. Owning is good but not everyone can have the dream of a house with 3 beds and a garden.

Other options are invest in a portfolio to get returns to cover your rent. (Done a lot of countries where house prices are too high.)

Fall in love with someone who has a place or money.

Stay renting all your life and just look on it as a cost. You can change places if your work changes.

Try find land and put new prefab house on it which does not need planning permission.

http://www.independent.co.uk/property/house-and-home/modular-housing-green-stylish-and-yours-for-just-16330000-1922235.html#gallery

New ways to build houses are coming soon. I seen a 3D printed house in China for €30k

Irish people are hung up on owning a house. Times are changing and so should the view on where and how you live.


Good look and don't worry your plans could change at any time if the right person comes along.

Cyrus

agent pitting us against each other..


as opposed to what exactly?

utmbuilder

I don't mind buying what ever a house costs. As long as it doesn't drop by 40% in 5 to 10 years. That's the real fear when buying.

utmbuilder

utmbuilder wrote: »

I don't mind buying what ever a house costs. As long as it doesn't drop by 40% in 5 to 10 years. That's the real fear when buying.

If you're not planning to sell in the next 5 years then does it really matter?

utmbuilder

Javion Some Skit wrote: »

If you're not planning to sell in the next 5 years then does it really matter?

It's called the "property ladder" for a reason.

I want to trade up a few times like generations before me.

pilly

Javion Some Skit wrote: »

If you're not planning to sell in the next 5 years then does it really matter?

This is the thing that people need to get over. You should buy your primary residence as a home not an investment.

Idbatterim

youd wonder about one bedroom apartments, the efficiency I mean. With a small 8-10m second bedroom, you could let it out if situation changes i.e. you lost job or had pay cut and it would also do if you had a child, might not be ideal, but would work.

The main expenses of kitchen and bathroom are already paid.

Tigerandahalf

....... wrote: »

Unfortunately the model of management fees seems to be extending to most new housing estates also these days so you will have to pay them no matter where you buy as the council no longer seem to take new estates in hand. The issue with management fees in Ireland is that there are pretty much no penalties for non payers. This wouldnt fly in another country but in Ireland you get a minority of non payers which then leaves a difficult situation for everyone else as there is not enough coming in to cover the costs of running the development - and you end up with what you describe of buildings needing a lick of paint etc...

I am not sure if this approach is a good idea. It doesn't cost the council a lot to cut gardens and pay for led street lighting in the greater scheme of things.

The downside is if a recession hits and a good few households lose jobs people will just not pay fees putting other costs first. That leaves other homeowners picking up the tab or deciding not to cut grass or maintain areas. Estates would become run down. You then just end up with bad will amongst neighbours.

What happens if a kid trips and falls in an area not maintained. It leaves management companies open to claims.

Are the mgt companies responsible for public liability in these estates?

pilly

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I am not sure if this approach is a good idea. It doesn't cost the council a lot to cut gardens and pay for led street lighting in the greater scheme of things.

The downside is if a recession hits and a good few households lose jobs people will just not pay fees putting other costs first. That leaves other homeowners picking up the tab or deciding not to cut grass or maintain areas. Estates would become run down. You then just end up with bad will amongst neighbours.

What happens if a kid trips and falls in an area not maintained. It leaves management companies open to claims.

Are the mgt companies responsible for public liability in these estates?

Yeah, I don't understand this either and think it's a recipe for disaster in the future.

TallGlass

pilly wrote: »

Yeah, I don't understand this either and think it's a recipe for disaster in the future.

So is there LPT in these estates along with management fees?

Tigerandahalf

TallGlass wrote: »

So is there LPT in these estates along with management fees?

Yes

Cyrus

TallGlass wrote: »

So is there LPT in these estates along with management fees?

yes there is

it needs to be resolved, in our new build estate of 22 houses, we have had our first year charge of 1,100. We would hope to get this down but add LPT on top and its an expensive way to live

pilly

Cyrus wrote: »

yes there is

it needs to be resolved, in our new build estate of 22 houses, we have had our first year charge of 1,100. We would hope to get this down but add LPT on top and its an expensive way to live

That's nuts. What's your LPT for then?

Cyrus

pilly wrote: »

That's nuts. What's your LPT for then?

good question

and this is because the council are making it a condition of planning not to take the estates in charge

side note - new builds are exempt from LPT until tax year 2019

Tigerandahalf

Cyrus wrote: »

good question

and this is because the council are making it a condition of planning not to take the estates in charge

It will also make developers reduce the green space available in new estates. Just paving at front of house and a driveway in to estate to reduce running costs.
People can have their back gardens to themselves.

No green spaces for kids to play any longer.

amtc

I live in a development with a management company although I have a house. There is a playground, which I have never seen a child in. There is also a bench which according to last year's accounts cost 2k. This year the agents wanted to spend 15k from the sinking fund to upgrade the playground and insurance. Myself and another girl work from home a lot and pointed out that in a full month we had seen no children playing nor the bench being sat on. So we defeated the motion.

Cyrus

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It will also make developers reduce the green space available in new estates. Just paving at front of house and a driveway in to estate to reduce running costs.
People can have their back gardens to themselves.

No green spaces for kids to play any longer.

to be fair i think they will always comply with the minimum requirements as per whatever act is in force at the time

Tigerandahalf

Cyrus wrote: »

to be fair i think they will always comply with the minimum requirements as per whatever act is in force at the time

No I meant developments with those features (and thus less mgt company maintenance fees) will be more popular to buy.

At a time when they are trying to discourage one off rural planning this type of council policy makes no sense.

If an estate is far away from green spaces/recreational area provided by councils young children will have no where to play or kick a ball about. In the times we are in that makes no sense.

It is bound to become an election issue on the door steps.

Cyrus

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

No I meant developments with those features (and thus less mgt company maintenance fees) will be more popular to buy.

At a time when they are trying to discourage one off rural planning this type of council policy makes no sense.

If an estate is far away from green spaces/recreational area provided by councils young children will have no where to play or kick a ball about. In the times we are in that makes no sense.

It is bound to become an election issue on the door steps.

no i understand, but in dublin at least the most green space any of them will put in one way or the other, is the least they can get away with

johnnyskeleton

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

True but I'd imagine a single person would want maybe an extra room so 2 beds are probably more desirable for a lot of people with friends staying over, storage or maybe renting out a room

myshirt wrote: »

I certainly do think that those wishing to buy a 3 bed semi by themselves or a 2 bed apartment by themselves are having a laugh. That is too much property for one person, and we don't want the market functioning in a way that property goes to waste like this. I suppose that is one good thing about this rental market, it has forced us all to make better use of property.

LirW wrote: »

I also don't think 2 bedrooms is unreasonable for one person when they intend to live in it for the duration of the mortgage. People still socialise, have hobbies, need extra space for a home office, want to have the option to live together with a future partner without having to sell up.

On the one bed thing, there's a strange dynamic at play. I don't think it is unreasonable to want to have a spare bedroom/home office etc and this in turn affects the resale value of a 2 bed vs a 1 bed. However, this fact alone means that many people insist on getting a 2 bed, even if it is way beyond what they can comfortably afford. This drives the prices up for 2 bed, and so on.

Should people settle for 1 beds? Probably not. But its demonstrative of the strange market in Dublin that for a type of property in such ostensible low demand, people are still paying high prices for 1 beds.

TallGlass wrote: »

You've to pay them fees, which they don't seem to do much with. Some of the blocks around me need a good paint and a slap of varnish on the wood.

Some do some don't. Most management fees will cover costs like bins and insurance, which people who own houses will spend a few hundred on each year. Then there are other things like security/cctv/concierge in some places, which is better than an alarm, external mantenance which, as you say sometimes is neglected, but in functioning apartment blocks it saves you the hassle of having to paint every few years, replace some windows etc, fix drainpipes etc.

Not saying that its all rosy, and its probably still cheaper to pay for these things individually in a house than through managment fees. But to suggest that they do nothing for this money is not accurate either.

Cuddlesworth

utmbuilder wrote: »

It's called the "property ladder" for a reason.

I want to trade up a few times like generations before me.

We don't have a ladder, we have a property rollercoaster. When its going up, you can move a little bit but everybody is calm and happy. As its hitting the top, everybody is pretending everything is ok but is scared ****less. And as its plummeting down, everybody is trapped and screaming.

server down

myshirt wrote: »

I'd like to see us get to a point where 1 X average industrial income plus 0.5 average income per extra room can afford a home, eg 3 bed terraced for 280, or 220 for a 2 bed, and 150-160 for a 1 bed.

I certainly do think that those wishing to buy a 3 bed semi by themselves or a 2 bed apartment by themselves are having a laugh. That is too much property for one person, and we don't want the market functioning in a way that property goes to waste like this. I suppose that is one good thing about this rental market, it has forced us all to make better use of property.

What you are saying though is that there’s no housing ladder. People have to couple up before they get a house and then it might as well be a big one.

server down

Personally I think property and management charges should be tax deductible for normal PAYE workers who pay it.

Graham

server down wrote: »

Personally I think property and management charges should be tax deductible for normal PAYE workers who pay it.

That'll happen around the same time homeowners can offset their Woodies receipts against PAYE.

server down

Graham wrote: »

That'll happen around the same time homeowners can offset their Woodies receipts against PAYE.

Not the same thing (although some countries alllow it). A householder who pays management fees and lpt is paying to service his own development and his neighbours. He is also saving the councils money on the managed estate.

MysticMonk

Thats why new builds are such a rip-off..it's not enough to gouge the money for a shoddily built deathtrap with thin walls you also have to pay a "management" fee every year which a lot of people don't pay and is added onto those who do.

mkdon

When will that happen though? They are predicting prices to increase for at least another 5 years