Trinity College to drop ‘freshman’ term over inclusivity concerns

BrokenArrows

This PC culture thing is getting way out of hand.
Fairly soon there will be outcry against Womans and Mens sections in cloths shops. "Im offended that i need to pick a gender while shopping"

languagenerd

super_furry wrote: »

Has anyone in any Irish college ever been called a freshman? It's only ever been fresher when I've heard the term actually used.

I posted on the previous page - the official names for the years in Trinity are Junior Freshman (now "Fresh" apparently), Senior Freshman, Junior Sophister and Senior Sophister.

It's a completely separate thing to Freshers Week - that's always been called Freshers Week and societies use the term "freshers" in TCD too. It's official stuff from the college - module titles, exam papers, student records, etc - that used "freshman" for 1st and 2nd year. (Agreed that "Fresh" sounds utterly stupid in that context but there you go...)

Shenshen

So they decided to change a turn of phrase - why is this news, and why do people get outraged over this?
The name of my team at work was recently changed to more closely reflect our main responsibilities, should I write to the papers about it?

Are Am Eye

Government of the Republic of Ireland.

BrokenArrows

We are living in a world where the masses are bending over backwards to please the few.
Out of all the trinity students how many people ever gave the word "freshman" a seconds thought.

Society needs to start telling these whiners to suck it up and **** off. Society has far more challenges to throw at them which are far more important than the fact that some words contain 3 letters.

Permabear

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Grayson

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm sorry I never realised how incredibly important this is and how damaging it is to remove it. Now I've been educated I'll make sure to turn what I thought was a minor event into a big deal.

And it's historical. I guess because we've been doing it for such a long time, during which women were banned from universities, it must be gender inclusive and wasn't ever a term just used for men.

Squeeonline

If Monty Python ridiculed the idea decades ago, you know it's bad.

NUIG would always call first years Freshers. Genderless, no fuss made about it, sounded "cooler" than freshman.

Guess some people need to justify their jobs by appearing very busy. Others have the need to feel offended by the slightest thing. What a waste of money and effort.

Permabear

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YFlyer

OP they be walking over your grave.

YFlyer

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Government of the Republic of Ireland.

Mother land.

super_furry

Shenshen wrote: »

So they decided to change a turn of phrase - why is this news, and why do people get outraged over this?
The name of my team at work was recently changed to more closely reflect our main responsibilities, should I write to the papers about it?

Don't you see? This is just to soften us up before they start forcible castrations and stealing our testicles!

And they're turning the frogs gay!

pilly

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Government of the Republic of Ireland.

You forgot the men in Government there. This is a very serious issue, we must get straight on it.

Grayson

Permabear wrote: »

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Not one of the titles you mentioned is male. It's not like Doctor = male and Doctorette = female. There's no mention of gender in any of those words. That's the point about the term freshman or freshmen.

See, this is a minor change that the university is bring in and yet you're getting your knickers in a twist about it.

According to you they're destroying the very fabric of our society and they're rewriting history.
Get over yourself.

Grayson

pilly wrote: »

You forgot the men in Government there. This is a very serious issue, we must get straight on it.

I saw pub in there. So I'm off to get a pint.

demfad

challengemaster wrote: »

More to the point, why is being offended suddenly unacceptable? You don't get leprosy and die from being offended, you're just offended. Fúcking deal with it or fúck off if you don't like it.

Its a hangover from when third level institutes were male only. Its only right and proper that colleges which deal in science and reason should reflect this in how student groups are named. The world moves on. Trinity is just catching up. If you don't like it you should send in a strongly worded letter. Otherwise : "Fúcking deal with it or fúck off if you don't like it", I guess.

ancapailldorcha

I don't remember ever being called a "Freshman" when I was there. The term used was "Fresher". This seems like posturing IMO. They really need to be more concerned with their abysmal ranking on the international scale.

demfad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't remember ever being called a "Freshman" when I was there. The term used was "Fresher". This seems like posturing IMO. They really need to be more concerned with their abysmal ranking on the international scale.

Updating an out of date terms is good housekeeping, is no big deal and should not detract from other activities like improving ratings etc.

ancapailldorcha

demfad wrote: »

Updating an out of date terms is good housekeeping, is no big deal and should not detract from other activities like improving ratings etc.

I just see vapid posturing from an average-at-best University. Such terminology changes don't really bother me. I'm just disappointed that this is what they're devoting time and energy to instead of more productive endeavors.

demfad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I just see vapid posturing from an average-at-best University. Such terminology changes don't really bother me. I'm just disappointed that this is what they're devoting time and energy to instead of more productive endeavors.

The point is that housekeeping can be done concurrently with more important endeavors. Its not one or the other.

Grayson

demfad wrote: »

The point is that housekeeping can be done concurrently with more important endeavors. Its not one or the other.

In this case they said they'd change terminology but give it a few years to take effect so it's not like anything has to be reprinted or anything like that.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

demfad wrote: »

The point is that housekeeping can be done concurrently with more important endeavors. Its not one or the other.

Don't recall claiming that at all. What I said was that this is a cheap way to gain positive publicity compared with something involving actual work.

suicide_circus

These are simply people who need to be told "no" a lot more.

A Little Pony

BrokenArrows wrote: »

We are living in a world where the masses are bending over backwards to please the few.
Out of all the trinity students how many people ever gave the word "freshman" a seconds thought.

Society needs to start telling these whiners to suck it up and **** off. Society has far more challenges to throw at them which are far more important than the fact that some words contain 3 letters.

Like the gender fluid nonsense.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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TfL, though not a University decided to remove "Ladies & Gentlemen" from its staff lexicon earlier this year. It's a good service though and frankly, if the media didn't report it I'd never have noticed.

TCD though has been ailing for some time. When I started, they were 53rd, then 49th. Now they're outside the top 100. This is just a lazy way to score points with students who'll forget whole affair in a few weeks anyway.

Permabear

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demfad

Permabear wrote: »

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If you could inform us about how Trinity excludes males that would be very helpful: that assumption cannot be made from your 58% statistic.

demfad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

TfL, though not a University decided to remove "Ladies & Gentlemen" from its staff lexicon earlier this year. It's a good service though and frankly, if the media didn't report it I'd never have noticed.

TCD though has been ailing for some time. When I started, they were 53rd, then 49th. Now they're outside the top 100. This is just a lazy way to score points with students who'll forget whole affair in a few weeks anyway.

Can you substantiate this in any way? This is something that would have to be done sooner or later regardless of how well it is doing.

It is just housekeeping. The ratings would be relevant to potential students not actual students. You seem to be implying the change was made to distract ratings.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

demfad wrote: »

Can you substantiate this in any way? This is something that would have to be done sooner or later regardless of how well it is doing.

It is just housekeeping. The ratings would be relevant to potential students not actual students. You seem to be implying the change was made to distract ratings.

I've only given my opinion. I mentioned TfL because it's a very well run utility so the idea of it being a distraction is less likely. If Oxford of Cambridge had done so, I'd have forgotten about it within an hour.

demfad

Permabear wrote: »

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Two universities in another country on the continent she comes from have made changes ergo it is a 'faddish' idea from that continent? Have I got you right?

Also changes in European Universities (this continent): http://www.dw.com/en/german-university-opts-for-gender-neutral-language/a-16865989.

Would be good if you could substantiate why you slipped the word 'faddish' in?

demfad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've only given my opinion. I mentioned TfL because it's a very well run utility so the idea of it being a distraction is less likely. If Oxford of Cambridge had done so, I'd have forgotten about it within an hour.

Its the logic that escapes me. The change is reasonable for some universities but not others even though the principle that guides the change must be the same?

Do you think Trinity was wrong to make this change or right?

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

demfad wrote: »

Its the logic that escapes me. The change is reasonable for some universities but not others even though the principle that guides the change must be the same?

Do you think Trinity was wrong to make this change or right?

Your missing the point. I interpret it as an attempt to boost its image and popularity by going for low hanging fruit rather than putting any sort of effort into improving its teaching and research outputs. I know that it isn't an either/or scenario. I didn't explicitly say so but given that they've continually slid in the rankings for most of the past decade, it might as well be.

I ultimately couldn't care less what sort of language they use. I didn't bother posting when TfL made the change. It doesn't really affect me and if it increases someone else's satisfaction then more power to them. However, the slack management of my Alma Mater does concern me and band aids like this aren't enough to change its direction.

demfad

Permabear wrote: »

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Can we stick to reality and show some integrity of argument please? It is YOU who is making a stink about it and can't provide a valid reason for doing so other than erecting strawmen. Again, can you communicate to us how you feel Trinity has been excluding men? Perhaps you were just waffling?

demfad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your missing the point. I interpret it as an attempt to boost its image and popularity by going for low hanging fruit rather than putting any sort of effort into improving its teaching and research outputs. I know that it isn't an either/or scenario. I didn't explicitly say so but given that they've continually slid in the rankings for most of the past decade, it might as well be.

Again the ratings DONT AFFECT students who are already there as you implied previously. They affect POTENTIAL students.

I ultimately couldn't care less what sort of language they use. I didn't bother posting when TfL made the change. It doesn't really affect me and if it increases someone else's satisfaction then more power to them. However, the slack management of my Alma Mater does concern me and band aids like this aren't enough to change its direction.

Again you have not provided any substantiation why this is an attempted PR band aid and not anything other than routine housekeeping.

It is a reasonable course of action for an institute of learning and reason to take. You can attribute ulterior motives to this but you would need to provide some substantiation to move it out of conspiracy theory territory.

Many people in this era mistake routine aligning of language and society with 21st century ethos on equality for 'PR gone mad' etc. Its widespread but these arguments dont stand up to any scrutiny.

ancapailldorcha

demfad wrote: »

Many people in this era mistake routine aligning of language and society with 21st century ethos on equality for 'PR gone mad' etc. Its widespread but these arguments dont stand up to any scrutiny.

I don't intend to repeat myself but I would like to point out that I never once said that this was "PC gone mad" or something equally meaningless.

Permabear

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demfad

Permabear wrote: »

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So a university of learning and reason should base their actions not on reason and learning but on what they have always done even when unreasonable?

You still haven't established why the vice-provost has to explain the 42-58 breakdown. Perhaps you believe it should return to the days when Freshmen were Freshmen and the breakdown was 0-100%? Why mess with history as you say?

demfad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't intend to repeat myself but I would like to point out that I never once said that this was "PC gone mad" or something equally meaningless.

To be fair I am trying to provide a motive for your argument where there doesn't appear to be one. You did yourself ascribe a motive to the Vice-provosts action without refuting the reasonable motive that already existed.

Others on this thread have raged about this change being the result of people being offended.
It's just an overdue catching up of college terminology with the fact that all genders are equal there now.
People usually cite the 'PC brigade', 'PC gone mad' for these inevitable corrections.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

demfad wrote: »

To be fair I am trying to provide a motive for your argument where there doesn't appear to be one. You did yourself ascribe a motive to the Vice-provosts action without refuting the reasonable motive that already existed.

How would I refute said motive, exactly? I can't so I'm just offering my opinion.

Noveight

Are there people out there who will genuinely feel a sense of achievement or progress now that the college has changed the term freshman to fresh?

ancapailldorcha

Noveight wrote: »

Are there people out there who will genuinely feel a sense of achievement or progress now that the college has changed the term freshman to fresh?

It's nice they're trying to be more open and inclusive. However, if Trinity is serious about improving itself, it needs to set about doing a lot more than changing a few documents and sending a few missives.

JohnMc1

Foxhound38 wrote: »

The article for those that want to read it

Look, I'm a straight white non-student male so I guess my view of this isn't worth much on this issue - but I'd love to know where these initiatives come from? I mean, has anyone, ever been upset enough by innocuous words like "freshman" to try and get it replaced on literature? I mean, it's not the end of the world but it does seem like an awful lot of effort to go to over a relatively small issue.

Am I the only one who is starting to think that a lot of social justice crusading boils down to control freakery rather than inclusion?

Next thing you know the Navy will be dropping the term Sea Man because it arouses the gay crew members.

pumpkin4life

So Trinity College and the education system selling liberal arts degrees to naive teenagers that both indoctrinates them with "you're a victim" SJW bumcrap and severely impairs their job prospects is fine apparently, but the term freshman is inoffensive because of inclusivity concerns?

:pac::pac::pac:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: education (as in the primary, secondary, university framework) is the biggest waste of time and resources and fuckbum snake oil around in modern society. STEM or gtfo for university lads.

Thank fook we can do a masters in Transgender Panda Studies, because, after all, the world needs more experts in Transgender Panda Studies.

Thank you Trinity!

Grayson

Permabear wrote: »

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Faddish....like the way women are allowed into college or allowed vote? It's only very recently in human history so I guess that's a fad.
Or the way women can open bank account without a man. That's only about 30 years ago.
Or the way gay people can have sex without breaking the law. That's 20 years ago.
Or gay people getting married, that's two years ago.

Of course you'll point out that it's completely different. Those are serious. This isn't. which is my point. It's a tiny change in verbiage that a university uses when addressing a portion of students.

It's to show that freshman was used to refer to men. For hundreds of years apparently. Hundreds of years when women couldn't attend university. So they decided to get with the times and use a different word. A word which doesn't exclude anyone and recognises it's not just men anymore.

I honestly don't know how anyone can get offended or think it's wrong. It's certainly not important.

Permabear wrote: »

Many of these titles once applied exclusively to men, and are still often presumed to apply to men. Just a few months ago, Newsweek ran a story about how female physicians are less likely than their male counterparts to be addressed as "Doctor," even in formal situations such as when giving presentations on their areas of expertise.

Lets see if I can explain it in simpler terms.

Freshman
doctorman

Notice the way one of the names has a gender in it and one doesn't.

Permabear wrote: »

If only 42 percent of Trinity students were women, you could be guaranteed that feminists would be making a stink about it and saying that the university is not committed to gender equality. Why doesn't the reverse argument apply?

and you'd be running around inside the quad, dressed as a furrie, with your lad hanging out.

If you're going to make up stories so will I. I'll just make them funnier

demfad

Noveight wrote: »

Are there people out there who will genuinely feel a sense of achievement or progress now that the college has changed the term freshman to fresh?

Its just housekeeping. There is gender equality in Universities now. It takes time for the rules, language, culture to catch up. Same with any change anywhere.

The revelation here is the amount of outrage and offense taken by some over this small inevitable change. Why?