Irish Rail September Timetable Changes

end of the road

naughtb4 wrote: »

Can anyone else think of a transport organisation that requires ALL of its available fleet to be operational and without issues in order for peak time to run smoothly?

This means if one train is out of commission for a day, there are gauranteed to be issues, with NO expectation of an increased fleet until 2020

This is one of the most incompetent approaches I have heard in a long time

that idea seems to have been brought in from britain. the bare minimum stock to run services with a little slack for maintenence but nothing more.

ThunbergsAreGo

end of the road wrote: »

that idea seems to have been brought in from britain. the bare minimum stock to run services with a little slack for maintenence but nothing more.

There is NO slack according to Irish Rail

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1674295839349273&id=451715794940623

goingnowhere

Have a look at Fairview at 8am, lots of trains sitting around doing nothing

Infini

Working class heroes wrote: »

Would that not be up to the driver to adjust the displays?. Genuine question.

Problem is the displays could be broken on them but its not worth taking em out of service because it would mean no train then.

Jamie2k9

naughtb4 wrote: »

Can anyone else think of a transport organisation that requires ALL of its available fleet to be operational and without issues in order for peak time to run smoothly?

This means if one train is out of commission for a day, there are gauranteed to be issues, with NO expectation of an increased fleet until 2020

This is one of the most incompetent approaches I have heard in a long time

Irish Rail don't require all the fleet, like transport operators around the world the fleet is heavily worked and at times stretched. They have spare capacity for servicing/repairing however like anything if they got a couple of failures in a single day there would be problems. The question people need to ask is are Irish Rail operating there fleet effectively. I believe there is room to improve on that front.

There is 144 DART carriages, 100-110 should be available to immediate service Monday-Friday. This leaves sufficient capacity to ensure the majority of services are 8 car. and ensure there is sufficient spare capacity. Ideally they should be working at 125-130 and have no problems.

I don't think Fairview have the capacity or staff to maintain such a fleet because the old timetable probally only required 75-80 carriages in service so a 30% increase in fleet is whats required and knowing Irish Rail they don't have sufficient staffing or at least other depots haven't until the last 18 months of so.

DART problems are not related to lack of trains and never will be.

ThunbergsAreGo

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail don't require all the fleet, like transport operators around the world the fleet is heavily worked and at times stretched. They have spare capacity for servicing/repairing however like anything if they got a couple of failures in a single day there would be problems. The question people need to ask is are Irish Rail operating there fleet effectively. I believe there is room to improve on that front.

There is 144 DART carriages, 100-110 should be available to immediate service Monday-Friday. This leaves sufficient capacity to ensure the majority of services are 8 car. and ensure there is sufficient spare capacity. Ideally they should be working at 125-130 and have no problems.

I don't think Fairview have the capacity or staff to maintain such a fleet because the old timetable probally only required 75-80 carriages in service so a 30% increase in fleet is whats required and knowing Irish Rail they don't have sufficient staffing or at least other depots haven't until the last 18 months of so.

DART problems are not related to lack of trains and never will be.

Would this apply to commuters as well?

end of the road

naughtb4 wrote: »

Would this apply to commuters as well?

it applies to all trains tbh. the only trains which seem to have little out at a time are the belfast and cork loco hauled services. everything else seems to have quite a few trains out at any one time.

goingnowhere

Belfast and Cork sets are the worst by far

Only 6 of the 8 Cork sets are in use and there is always 1 of the 4 Enterprise sets out.

Jamie2k9

naughtb4 wrote: »

Would this apply to commuters as well?

Of course, there is 29 2900 sets in Dublin, I can't even begin to calculate how many are in service daily but if its less than 24 then IE should have to explain.

Its like the decision to send a 5 ICR to Belfast for the next 8-10 weeks because all of a sudden the 201s struggle in low rail conditions. Yes they are problems but they manged perfectly fine for 20 years before ICRs were cleared up north. The 5 ICRs are terrible during poor rail conditions.

Would like to know what the NTA think about IE using there rolling stock on a cross border service. They should be charged fees for using stock on commercial (scheduled) routes particularly a route like Belfast where NIR gain the most.

uxiant

What's the deal with the 201s in terms of reliability and performance? I've seen a Translink commuter train arrive into Connolly in the morning a couple of times over the past few months and now the ICRs are replacing them for a few weeks because they struggle to make it up an incline between Dundalk and Newry?

Jamie2k9

uxiant wrote: »

What's the deal with the 201s in terms of reliability and performance? I've seen a Translink commuter train arrive into Connolly in the morning a couple of times over the past few months and now the ICRs are replacing them for a few weeks because they struggle to make it up an incline between Dundalk and Newry?

The ICR is only on the 7.35 ex Dublin and 10.35 ex Belfast. 201s do struggle because they have not sanding equipment (or it was removed) can't remember which.

NIR trains filling in could just as easily be related to the coaches rather than 201s but overall its pretty solid.

uxiant

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The ICR is only on the 7.35 ex Dublin and 10.35 ex Belfast. 201s do struggle because they have not sanding equipment (or it was removed) can't remember which.

NIR trains filling in could just as easily be related to the coaches rather than 201s but overall its pretty solid.

Pretty bad if you're paying for an Intercity service and a commuter train turns up though.

Jamie2k9

uxiant wrote: »

Pretty bad if you're paying for an Intercity service and a commuter train turns up though.

Could be worse, IE just leave people standing and reduce the capacity elsewhere to enable the ICR move to Belfast. Could be wrong but the 5 car from Newbridge to GCD is no more in the mornings.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Would like to know what the NTA think about IE using there rolling stock on a cross border service. They should be charged fees for using stock on commercial (scheduled) routes particularly a route like Belfast where NIR gain the most.

The Enterprise despite having a brand name is in fact a PSO service, and is a unique one at that.

There is also no issue with IE using their fleet as they see fit, all rolling stock used by IE (bar the majority of the Tara wagons, and a ittle over half the Enterprise fleet and two of the 201s which are owned by NIR) is fully owned (and controlled) by IE/CIE and not the NTA or anyone else.

There are no PSO type restrictions on stock usage for rail like there is for bus contracts.

goingnowhere

GM228 wrote: »

There are no PSO type restrictions on stock usage for rail like there is for bus contracts.

There actually is, its in the PSO contract. The NTA expects its pound of flesh.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

The Enterprise despite having a brand name is in fact a PSO service, and is a unique one at that.

There is also no issue with IE using their fleet as they see fit, all rolling stock used by IE (bar the majority of the Tara wagons, and a ittle over half the Enterprise fleet and two of the 201s which are owned by NIR) is fully owned (and controlled) by IE/CIE and not the NTA or anyone else.

There are no PSO type restrictions on stock usage for rail like there is for bus contracts.

Got a link to PSO details?

Regardless its unacceptable they have a train capable of carrying 400 people sitting idle in the mornings and they decided to cut capacity elsewhere.

L1011

PSO restrictions on 22ks were cited as a reason for less match specials in recent years... was that just a false excuse then?

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

There actually is, its in the PSO contract. The NTA expects its pound of flesh.

No there isn't, bus contracts forbid the use of PSO buses for non PSO work without permission, however for rail the contract allows any railway infrastructure to be used for non PSO services without prior permission in accordance with a compensation formula.

The problem with this is however that particular types of rolling stock must be prescribed as "public transport infrastructure" under section 44 (13) of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008. To date no rolling stock has been so prescribed by the NTA.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Got a link to PSO details?

All here:-

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/rail/contracts/

The Enterprise service is unique in that all services are contacted by the NTA to IE. IE and NIR then jointly operate the service via a bilateral agreement which sees NIR operating two thirds of the service and bearing responsibility for carriage maintenance with IE responsible for 201 maintenance including the NIR owned ones.

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

PSO restrictions on 22ks were cited as a reason for less match specials in recent years... was that just a false excuse then?

But they are regularly used for specials.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

All here:-

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/rail/contracts/

The Enterprise service is unique in that all services are contacted by the NTA to IE. IE and NIR then jointly operate the service via a bilateral agreement which sees NIR operating two thirds of the service and bearing responsibility for carriage maintenance with IE responsible for 201 maintenance including the NIR owned ones.

So your saying the taxpayer in ROI is paying for people in the UK to have subsidized service?

goingnowhere

The Enterprise setup is not clear cut.

It is supported by both the NI and IE administrations. It is subject to NTA PSO contact conditions.
IE owns the even number coaches, NIR the odd, IE owns 206/7, NIR owns 208/9
NIR owns the MK3 gen vans (how much they paid for them is open to investigation)

That said IE maintains the 201's and provides 2 more over the 4 original
NIR maintains the coaches (that said IE did provide some engineering support during the refurb project)

The actual revenue share and service levels is further complicated

NIR do have a legal right to run to Dun Laoghaire and this cannot incur a fee

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

But they are regularly used for specials.

The claim made was that the NTA charged for their use. It was by another poster who at least gives the impression of working for IR, not my own claim!

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

The Enterprise setup is not clear cut.

It is supported by both the NI and IE administrations. It is subject to NTA PSO contact conditions.

The NTA PSO grant covers the the running costs of the Enterprise service excluding maintenance costs which are covered by a route subsidy by the DfI.

goingnowhere wrote: »

IE owns the even number coaches, NIR the odd, IE owns 206/7, NIR owns 208/9
NIR owns the MK3 gen vans (how much they paid for them is open to investigation)

NIR did not pay for the EGVs, they were transferred to NIR ownership as part of a deal brokered by the then DRD.

goingnowhere wrote: »

That said IE maintains the 201's and provides 2 more over the 4 original
NIR maintains the coaches (that said IE did provide some engineering support during the refurb project)

IE provides 4 additional 201s over the original 4.

IE only did body work on 2 carriages under contract due to pressure in York Road.

goingnowhere wrote: »

The actual revenue share and service levels is further complicated

It's not really that complicated, IE keep their own receipts and same for NIR.

goingnowhere wrote: »

NIR do have a legal right to run to Dun Laoghaire and this cannot incur a fee

No they don't, what gave you that idea? NIR lost their operational access right to Dun Laoghaire in late 1988 shortly after they began operating there (this was brought about by union interference), the 1989 (and later early 1990s) runs of NIR stock to Dun Laoghaire were worked by IE.

The first runs in 1988 were worked by CSD and Portadown drivers and Central guards who learned the road to Dun Laoghaire, after 1988 an NIR crewed train never worked south of Connolly again on a scheduled service. Currently NIR only have a CRR Operational Licence on IE as fat as Connolly and a restricted licence to Inchicore.

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

The claim made was that the NTA charged for their use. It was by another poster who at least gives the impression of working for IR, not my own claim!

The claim is not true, in order for it to happen a ministerial or NTA issued regulation in the form of a statutory instrument is required to be issued under the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, to date that has not happened.

goingnowhere

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1944/act/21/section/53/enacted/en/html

(d) if, for convenience of working, the Northern Railway Company send any carriage or rolling stock over the Dublin Junction Railways and the Company's railway between Westland Row aforesaid and Dun Laoghaire Mail Pier, no payment shall be made by the Company to the Northern Railway Company in respect of any such carriage or rolling stock, nor shall any toll for haulage be charged by the Company against the Northern Railway Company in respect of any such carriage or rolling stock.

Rashers72

Wonder if this is true?
https://www.kildarenow.com/news/irish-rail-trying-source-carriages-additional-fleet-capacity-maynooth-kildare-rail-lines/252966

Del.Monte

Rashers72 wrote: »

Wonder if this is true?
https://www.kildarenow.com/news/irish-rail-trying-source-carriages-additional-fleet-capacity-maynooth-kildare-rail-lines/252966

Probably is true and is laughable given the premature destruction of the MkIII fleet by the company.

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1944/act/21/section/53/enacted/en/html

That specifically applied to the Great Northern Railway Company (Ireland) - (note, not the Great Northern Railway Board itself).

The GNRI ceased to operate the Great Northern Railway undertaking on 1st September 1953 and was dissolved on 27th February 1958 and the GNR itself was vested in CIE and the UTA on 1st October 1958.

Any reference to rights or privileges of the GNRI ceased to have legal effect from 1953 as the company no longer operated the GNR from then and legislation both here and in Northern Ireland did not transfer any rights or privileges of the GNRI to CIE or the UTA respectively. Also you need to remember that the 1944 Act applied specifically to the original CIE company which was dissolved in 1950 and not the semi state CIE created in 1950.

XPS_Zero

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So your saying the taxpayer in ROI is paying for people in the UK to have subsidized service?

Don't get too hung up on that. The taxpayer here is paying for roads to be built in Estonia and Cyprus under the EU Regional Development fund.

• Irish citizens use the Enterprise.

• It promotes mutual commerce in Dublin and Belfast that help the entire Island which is one economic unit (which is exactly why Brexit is such a big deal as a threat), because business people use it (they even have a special type of ticket they use it so frequently), shoppers from Belfast and Dublin use it, US tourists use it.

• There is an all Ireland free travel agreement in place which places no real distinction between a NI and ROI resident.

It's exactly this kind of attitude that made the brits step off a cliff with Brexit, thinking they could save money by only looking at their direct contribution to the EU budget and saving it, without thinking of the knock on economic effects and synergies that make that contribution an investment not an expense, where they get way more back than they put in.
The Enterprise is the same, we get way more out of it than we put in, it's a gem we'd be lost without.


Remember there has to be a DSP subsidy to pay NIR and IE a flat rate for the FT passengers on this service, hence why they have to fill out forms to keep an eye on the levels of usage.

goingnowhere wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1944/act/21/section/53/enacted/en/html

Keep in mind laws listed on Irishstatutebook.ie include ones that are repealed since. You'll find laws from the 1920s on there referring to flogging as a punishment (seriously). The laws criminalizing being gay are probably still up there.