Disposable Income Gone

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

As many have already stated, it's a race to the bottom, undercutting the wages of established employees, now locals who want a decent standard of living won't be able to achieve such on the wages offered. The migrant on the other hand has set his sights very low and can achieve that as they only intend to stay a short while.

The example given was an employee who had retired from the company, and the salary amount being advertised as being lower than what the retired employee was paid.

The retired employee was highly unlikely to have started and stayed at 45k from the beginning of his employment. He would have worked hard, been creative, gained the trust of his employer, etc and been rewarded with higher salary amounts/promotions over time. We have no idea of his contract and the terms of salary increments.

The problem with this is the expectation that a fresh applicant can replace the retired employee at the same salary without any definite proof of his worth to the company. This isn't undercutting existing employees. This is the problem with modern society. The expectation or entitlement that they should enter a job on the higher salaries without proving themselves.

Other examples in this thread show different scenarios of companies undercutting existing employees, which is a valid issue. This is different. This is expecting top salaries for the position (that the previous person worked up to) from the moment you enter the company.

For Forks Sake

hurler32 wrote: »

.
Retired lately and now this company who are very profitable are looking for a replacement on just above minimum wage 22K per annum ...Very little interest locally but I guess they will get an Albanian or Romanian to do it ,scavenge in Lidl each week and send home 50 euro every week?
?

I suspect that if you went back in time to 1960s London, Birmingham or Manchester that the locals would've been expressing very similar sentiments about Irish lads coming over looking for work on their building sites.....

Permabear

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topper75

Permabear wrote: »

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I feel so dirty stepping in on the govt getting a kicking, but for the sake of truth...

I think that is the central bank that imposed these borrowing restrictions?

Yes, bizarrely an Irish Central Bank still exists. Is it not independent of the govt?

I could be wrong it was a long time since I was in school learning this stuff.

draiochtanois

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topper75

For Forks Sake wrote: »

I suspect that if you went back in time to 1960s London, Birmingham or Manchester that the locals would've been expressing very similar sentiments about Irish lads coming over looking for work on their building sites.....

How much was Irish undercutting on price in 1960s UK, and how much was just a labour shortage that the Irish were simply making up the difference on? Because there is a distinction in terms of ultimate effect on native workers.

When the construction boom started in Ireland in the early years of the century, we also simply couldn't get the workers locally. The initial arrivals filled the shortfall. The much-maligned undercutting that drove native workers out of the game did not occur until later when demand fell back and something had to give on the supply side (2007-2010ish).

I don't think those 1960s Paddys were putting any Tommys on the dole across the pond. They were all needed.

topper75

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Excellent post- explains an awful lot really. So true.

Thing is - in human behavioural terms - there is no dialling back on such 'advances' once they are adopted. And so we have the collective whine about not being able to have cake and eat it.

Permabear

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topper75

Permabear wrote: »

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ha ha

Right, well, nominally then.

topper75

topper75 wrote: »

ha ha

Right, well, nominally then.

When it was first created, sure. Now? Err...

Geuze

donegaLroad wrote: »

All jokes aside though, a lot of people's disposable income have been decimated by the universal social charge, as a previous poster just mentioned.

For some people, the USC is less than the two taxes it replaced: the health and income levies.


Income tax was increased during 2008-2014, that caused a drop in net incomes.

Geuze

BuboBubo wrote: »

I'm in an older demographic than most of the posters on this I'm guessing (40's).

The one thing that really affected my spending power is that bloody USC.

That was money I spent on little things like magazines, coffees, 99's etc. The introduction of USC killed off a lot of small local businesses in my honest opinion.

Note that the USC replaced two previous taxes: the health and income levies.

It is now lower than those two taxes.

Geuze

topper75 wrote: »

I feel so dirty stepping in on the govt getting a kicking, but for the sake of truth...

I think that is the central bank that imposed these borrowing restrictions?

Yes, bizarrely an Irish Central Bank still exists. Is it not independent of the govt?

I could be wrong it was a long time since I was in school learning this stuff.

Yes, the CBAI did introduce these sensible restrictions.

Yes, they still exist, and yes they are independent of the Govt.

server down

draiochtanois wrote: »

Disposable income is not gone it's redirected.

Back in the 80s V Now

1 phone per house V 1 phone per individual

1 car per household V generally 2 per household and often more

No bottled water V lots of bottled water (were we seriously that dehydrated?)

Coffee outside the house was a rarity V Daily takeaway coffee, pastries, sandwiches

No Weekends away, holiday in a rented house in the countryside V Numerous weekend breaks and overseas holidays

Bog 1 And Bog 2 V Expensive SKY, EIR, Virgin package

Simple weddings V Multiday Wedding Extravaganzas

Children's activities were being outside V Origami, drama, pilates, etc


etc, etc

This has nothing to do with disposable income income but how it is spent. (Most of that is rubbish too.).

The real reason discretionary income is falling for younger people (which is the topic) is stagnating wages and higher rents. And rather than go back to the eighties go back a few years.

Have wages increased. No.
Have rents increased. Yes.

Has discretionary income thus decreased for people who rent? Yes.

QED

donegaLroad

Approx 45 - 50 percent of my monthly mortgage repayments is on interest. I will post an image of my statement later.

smurgen

A thing i've noticed is how expensive the rare "luxury" treats have gotten. I recently went to have a medium americano in the local re store when getting diesel and it was 3.75 for a medium -out of a machine! Didn't bother getting it in the end.another one is crisps.i've seen normal sized o'donnell crisps for 1.50 in a few places and even tayto at 1.20 a normal bag in a centra.

Geuze

server down wrote: »

The real reason discretionary income is falling for younger people (which is the topic) is stagnating wages and higher rents. And rather than go back to the eighties go back a few years.

Have wages increased. No.
Have rents increased. Yes.

Has discretionary income thus decreased for people who rent? Yes.

QED

Yes, yes, yes.

Accomm costs are really hurting purchasing power in Ireland.

topper75

But ALL spending of every nature has the capacity to 'really hurt purchasing power' and reduce disposable income. Not sure how rent in particular is the root of all evil here. It is not deducted directly from your wage, and we have a free property market. You can rent where you want if you are willing to pay the price and there is no obligation to rent in any particular property.

If you cut out the modern 'commitments' outlined by draoichtanois, then you will of course have a lot more purchasing power.

It's a 'have your cake and eat it' issue really. Same as ALL economic decisions i.e. many desires, but limited resources.

You have to choose. This is the terror of the free market.

draiochtanois

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Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, yes, yes.

Accomm costs are really hurting purchasing power in Ireland.

I'd suggest that it's more the introduction of rates and increased taxes (across the board) that are hurting spending power. Rental amounts (outside of Dublin and city centres) are likely increasing to compensate for the tax/rate hikes.

kerryjack

Good documentary on Netflix called minimalism well worth a look and makes a lot of sense most houses are full of junk that they don't use and than they need an extension to put more junk in

draiochtanois

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cefh17

draiochtanois wrote: »

And the idiot tax - THE NATIONAL LOTTERY total sales for the year ended 31 December 2016 at €750.2m

Ah but to quote Nitecrawler, "if you wanna win the lottery, you have to make the money to buy a ticket". Yes it's an idiot tax, one which I include myself in now and again, for the sake of the price of a coffee it's nice to dream for a few hours of telling the boss to stuff it and never work again!

I'm in the younger age bracket and have always been quite smart with my money.. I see people in work my age driving nice 141 cars, taking out loans for such and then with rent and going out every weekend complain they're broke. The mind boggles.

Since July I've started budgeting, like, really budgeting and 'YNAB' is a real eye opener. I don't mind blowing 100e on a night out, because before I have I know I can afford it and won't have to be worrying where the money for diesel or ESB is going to be coming from. A lot of people would be in shock at how much they spend on stuff like takeaways and taxis, my best friends housemate added up his dominos bills and it worked out to be like 800e in the last 8 months!

draiochtanois

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cefh17

draiochtanois wrote: »

Are you saving 20% of your income?
Have you started a pension / contribute at least what your company matches?
Plan to buy a property only when you have 20% as deposit and can finance the rest over 15 years?

Averaged 33% the last 6 months (since I started tracking the budget), pay rent and service a car too. Pension started as soon as I could through work, matched to employer but going to increase it in NY. FTB but would have more than the 10% required if you must know

I'm not on mega money by any means, but idk why people work so hard for their money (some anyways, haha) then blow most of it on stupid stuff and just have the added anxiety of going paycheck to paycheck

kerryjack

cefh17 wrote: »

Averaged 33% the last 6 months (since I started tracking the budget), pay rent and service a car too. Pension started as soon as I could through work, matched to employer but going to increase it in NY. FTB but would have more than the 10% required if you must know

I'm not on mega money by any means, but idk why people work so hard for their money (some anyways, haha) then blow most of it on stupid stuff and just have the added anxiety of going paycheck to paycheck

Thats a great attitude well done

cefh17

kerryjack wrote: »

Thats a great attitude well done

This isn't an 'oh I'm great' post, and I realise that I'm lucky in being able to do that.. but at the same time people need to realise that the old age pension won't be there in the same guise that it is now when we hit retirement age. And that really unless you have some kind of emergency fund that you're not really as comfortable and safe as you think.

They really need to do some sort of basic economics/budgeting/how to be an adult class in secondary school that's mandatory. And scrap Irish in its place preferably

smurgen

draiochtanois wrote: »

Just to give you an idea of the massive amounts of money that I would contend is wasted today:

Consumers spent €43 million in the on-trade on bottled water in 2016.

Carbonated beverages €703m in 2014. Minimal nutritional value

Fruit Juices €122m in 2014 Dubious nutritional value

These are whole aisles of supermarkets that just didn't exist in the 80s

And the idiot tax - THE NATIONAL LOTTERY total sales for the year ended 31 December 2016 at €750.2m

We are spending less than ever on alcohol and cigarettes.

pilly

cefh17 wrote:

This isn't an 'oh I'm great' post, and I realise that I'm lucky in being able to do that.. but at the same time people need to realise that the old age pension won't be there in the same guise that it is now when we hit retirement age. And that really unless you have some kind of emergency fund that you're not really as comfortable and safe as you think.

I admire your saving attitude but people can't spend their whole lives worrying about old age either.

There is a fine balance. My granny died with 100k in the bank, never left Ireland in her life.

My mother was heartbroken that she had left so money behind and not enjoyed life.

cefh17

pilly wrote: »

I admire your saving attitude but people can't spend their whole lives worrying about old age either.

There is a fine balance. My granny died with 100k in the bank, never left Ireland in her life.

My mother was heartbroken that she had left so money behind and not enjoyed life.

Yeah I get that, and I'd hope my parents blow through my inheritance when they get closer to old age and enjoy the fruits of their years of labour and sacrifices. Think it's all about finding the line between having nothing to fall back on hard times (which will come to most of us) and not enjoying yourself while you still have the energy and health to. If only taking a mini retirement in your 30's was a thing

Billy86

hurler32 wrote: »

scavanging in Aldi-Lidl etc to make ends meet ??

That's a weird way to spell shopping. I can afford to shop in Aldi, Lidl, Dunnes, Tesco etc but generally choose Aldi because I prefer their food and they offer better value. Am I not truly living or something, until I'm doing the weekly shop in Marks & Spencers?

DivingDuck

pilly wrote: »

I admire your saving attitude but people can't spend their whole lives worrying about old age either.

Some people get great value out of a feeling of safety, though, or the knowledge that their death will bring something positive to their loved ones as well as just pain.

server down

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This has nothing to do with disposable or discretionary income.

And most of those are decades old. Ballygowan started in 1981. The lottery in 1986. Pretty sure that the 80's had carbonated beverages and fruit juices.

server down

cefh17 wrote: »

This isn't an 'oh I'm great' post, and I realise that I'm lucky in being able to do that.. but at the same time people need to realise that the old age pension won't be there in the same guise that it is now when we hit retirement age. And that really unless you have some kind of emergency fund that you're not really as comfortable and safe as you think.

They really need to do some sort of basic economics/budgeting/how to be an adult class in secondary school that's mandatory. And scrap Irish in its place preferably

The pension will be there for all public sector employees, as it is contracted to be there for them. Whatever they agree to now, they are owed. Maybe the government can increase tax. The state pension might not be increased with inflation but I doubt that it will leave people on the breadline.

Dont assume that private pensions wont be hit though, in some kind of tax grab, or that people with private pensions will have some extra payments to make, loss of free travel, no tax free drawdown until you are past 70, maybe no tax free drawdown at all.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd suggest that it's more the introduction of rates and increased taxes (across the board) that are hurting spending power. Rental amounts (outside of Dublin and city centres) are likely increasing to compensate for the tax/rate hikes.

The introduction of what rates?

Idbatterim

smurgen wrote: »

A thing i've noticed is how expensive the rare "luxury" treats have gotten. I recently went to have a medium americano in the local re store when getting diesel and it was 3.75 for a medium -out of a machine! Didn't bother getting it in the end.another one is crisps.i've seen normal sized o'donnell crisps for 1.50 in a few places and even tayto at 1.20 a normal bag in a centra.

the thing is, junk food is scarely cheap. I bought a 20 pack of tayto in teso the other day for E4. 700 grams quality street or one of those for E4! Filling stations are criminal, the only thing I buy in them is petrol!

Idbatterim

cefh17 wrote: »

Averaged 33% the last 6 months (since I started tracking the budget), pay rent and service a car too. Pension started as soon as I could through work, matched to employer but going to increase it in NY. FTB but would have more than the 10% required if you must know

I'm not on mega money by any means, but idk why people work so hard for their money (some anyways, haha) then blow most of it on stupid stuff and just have the added anxiety of going paycheck to paycheck

I totally agree. They go pay check to pay check and the stress is being caused by needless s**te. Take away coffees and total waste etc :rolleyes:

topper75

So much economic theory is wrong because it is underpinned by the assumption of rational behaviour.

Consumer spending patterns often suggest otherwise.

NinetyTwoTeam

Idbatterim wrote: »

I totally agree. They go pay check to pay check and the stress is being caused by needless s**te. Take away coffees and total waste etc :rolleyes:

If I hear another person tell me the reason most of my generation will never afford a house is takeaway coffee I'm gonna smack them with my avocado toast.

The economy has been stacked in such a way that if you don't come from a family with money, you're going to be scraping by all your life. Wages are dreadful, rents and house prices are sky high. Let me drink my mother flipping coffee so I can summon the will to live in this late stage capitalist dystopia, thanks.

NIMAN

We are creating a new generation (or two) who think that the State will provide them with everything in life. It might not be a lot, but it'll be enough.

Well, these folk may have a rude awakening in the future, when we don't have enough taxpayers to pay for all the pensioners.

Only hope I can see is a universal income given to everyone.

NIMAN

We are creating a new generation (or two) who think that the State will provide them with everything in life. It might not be a lot, but it'll be enough.

Well, these folk may have a rude awakening in the future, when we don't have enough taxpayers to pay for all the pensioners.

Only hope I can see is a universal income given to everyone.

draiochtanois

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Shenshen

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

If I hear another person tell me the reason most of my generation will never afford a house is takeaway coffee I'm gonna smack them with my avocado toast.

The economy has been stacked in such a way that if you don't come from a family with money, you're going to be scraping by all your life. Wages are dreadful, rents and house prices are sky high. Let me drink my mother flipping coffee so I can summon the will to live in this late stage capitalist dystopia, thanks.

It's all about choices. You choose coffee, others choose home ownership. And yes, some people from rich families or with fantastic incomes can actually choose both. But the way I understand it, we just cannot all come from rich families, the world just doesn't work that way.

Idbatterim

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

If I hear another person tell me the reason most of my generation will never afford a house is takeaway coffee I'm gonna smack them with my avocado toast.

The economy has been stacked in such a way that if you don't come from a family with money, you're going to be scraping by all your life. Wages are dreadful, rents and house prices are sky high. Let me drink my mother flipping coffee so I can summon the will to live in this late stage capitalist dystopia, thanks.

the gf was in starbucks the other day and paid E4.60 for a take away coffee. I am not saying 1-2 for a coffee is a joke. But this E3 and plus is a joke!

pilly

DivingDuck wrote: »

Some people get great value out of a feeling of safety, though, or the knowledge that their death will bring something positive to their loved ones as well as just pain.

Hmm, I'd rather the sun on my back thanks all the same. :P

My parents now go away at least 3 times a year and I've told them that I don't want to see a penny when they're gone, I want them to enjoy it while they have their health.

Also remember folks, if you get you your old age and you need nursing care, the state will just take all your savings anyway.

Don't get me wrong I do have life insurance but I definitely won't be keeping any lump sum in the bank.

draiochtanois

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pilly

Shenshen wrote: »

It's all about choices. You choose coffee, others choose home ownership. And yes, some people from rich families or with fantastic incomes can actually choose both. But the way I understand it, we just cannot all come from rich families, the world just doesn't work that way.

Now get off the stage, coffee is not going to pay the deposit for a house no matter what way you look at it. I could do the maths but I know you're just being facetious.

Billy86

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Cost of buying a jar of coffee every second Monday for those five years = €650

So basically, the difference is one pretty good full time annual wage (€32,280) per decade; pretty startling!

Shenshen

pilly wrote: »

Now get off the stage, coffee is not going to pay the deposit for a house no matter what way you look at it. I could do the maths but I know you're just being facetious.

No, but I did experience how much the little things actually do add up to not too long ago.
We used to be on two incomes, mortgage, two cars, perfectly normal life. And as many people here said, I struggled trying to have a bit left over at the end of the month.

Then we unexpectedly went down to 1 income when my husband lost his job. All of a sudden, the income I had previously had nothing over from at the end of the month had to cover all bills and the mortgage every month. So I sat down and drew up a budget.
And guess what? Not only did it stretch to cover all this, I am now actually saving money on top of it. My income has increased by about 3% in that time, and I now drive an electric car rather than a petrol one, but other than that it was changing the small things that mattered.
Not doing a big weekly shop (you always end up throwing stuff out), shopping in Lidl and only going to Tesco for the odd item I can't get in Lidl (yeast, for example), takeaways only every other week rather than twice a week, bring home-made lunches to work, buy clothes/comic books/other luxury items only once a month as a treat, etc.

Each of these items is ridiculously small looked at in isolation, but taken together and over a month, they add up significantly.
I supposed I previously just didn't have the motivation, thinking we'd always be comfortable. Now, I do worry that we may run out of money, so I really, really make sure to put money aside each month.

draiochtanois

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