Disposable Income Gone

Hollister11

draiochtanois wrote: »

Buying 2 of those every day for 5 years = €16790

But most people buy 1 a day when they do buy coffee. . There also next working/out everyday of the year, so it's a false analysis.

pilly

Shenshen wrote: »

No, but I did experience how much the little things actually do add up to not too long ago.
We used to be on two incomes, mortgage, two cars, perfectly normal life. And as many people here said, I struggled trying to have a bit left over at the end of the month.

Then we unexpectedly went down to 1 income when my husband lost his job. All of a sudden, the income I had previously had nothing over from at the end of the month had to cover all bills and the mortgage every month. So I sat down and drew up a budget.
And guess what? Not only did it stretch to cover all this, I am now actually saving money on top of it. My income has increased by about 3% in that time, and I now drive an electric car rather than a petrol one, but other than that it was changing the small things that mattered.
Not doing a big weekly shop (you always end up throwing stuff out), shopping in Lidl and only going to Tesco for the odd item I can't get in Lidl (yeast, for example), takeaways only every other week rather than twice a week, bring home-made lunches to work, buy clothes/comic books/other luxury items only once a month as a treat, etc.

Each of these items is ridiculously small looked at in isolation, but taken together and over a month, they add up significantly.
I supposed I previously just didn't have the motivation, thinking we'd always be comfortable. Now, I do worry that we may run out of money, so I really, really make sure to put money aside each month.

I get all that, I went from a salary of 70k to zero back in 2008 when things crashed and it has caused to me to be more careful alright. But to state that it's a choice between coffee or a house is definitely over simplifying the issues as you've outlined above.

Just bugs me the way people judge others all the time. Same thing about the bottled water, you're out in the car, dying of the thirst, what do you do? Run into someone's house and ask can you have a sup of water? No, you go into a shop and buy a bottle of water. It's a hell of lot better than buying some sugar filled drink.

People always bought drinks for in a car or when walking or whatever, it's just changed toward water, which is a good thing.

There's an awful of lot of older people looking down on the younger generation with the attitude of "it's all your own fault". It's patronising.

And I'm an "older" person.

DivingDuck

pilly wrote: »

There's an awful of lot of older people looking down on the younger generation with the attitude of "it's all your own fault". It's patronising.

I don't think there's been any period in history where the older generation haven't looked down on the younger generation and judged them as irresponsible and feckless.

Hollister11

pilly wrote: »

I get all that, I went from a salary of 70k to zero back in 2008 when things crashed and it has caused to me to be more careful alright. But to state that it's a choice between coffee or a house is definitely over simplifying the issues as you've outlined above.

Just bugs me the way people judge others all the time. Same thing about the bottled water, you're out in the car, dying of the thirst, what do you do? Run into someone's house and ask can you have a sup of water? No, you go into a shop and buy a bottle of water. It's a hell of lot better than buying some sugar filled drink.

People always bought drinks for in a car or when walking or whatever, it's just changed toward water, which is a good thing.

There's an awful of lot of older people looking down on the younger generation with the attitude of "it's all your own fault". It's patronising.

And I'm an "older" person.

Tbf its the older generations fault for costing ireland the last 10 years of growth. There was always prospects for previous generations with good money avaliable, but alot of that(not all) has bee obliterated.

I'm 21, in my final year of college, and the main reason I'm looking forward to getting a wage in the future is to grow it.

Ubbquittious

pilly wrote: »

Just bugs me the way people judge others all the time. Same thing about the bottled water, you're out in the car, dying of the thirst, what do you do? Run into someone's house and ask can you have a sup of water? No, you go into a shop and buy a bottle of water. It's a hell of lot better than buying some sugar filled drink.

There used to be public taps around and even public toilets at one point but most of those are gone now. People were enamoured by the money-spinner created by forcing people to pay for those instead because it created jobs, made the figures look good and all that sh1te. But when all the bottled water is being imported by some multinational who only wants to employ robots that argument goes out the window

neirbloom

grahambo wrote: »

This is par for the course all over the country and indeed the world.

I'm just out of a long term relationship (had a kid and mortgage with the other person)
I ended up moving out, and I'm living back at home because I literally cannot afford to rent a place....

I'm 34 years old with a very good Job....

15 years ago I'd have been able to at least get somewhere to rent at a decent price.
It's pathetic.


There needs to be a world war to force the distribution of wealth away from the 1%'ers to the average Joe.
IE a massive destruction of wealth

Look at the US in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's. The quality of life they had at the time was the "American Dream", no one has that now.

Its far more prelavent here than in other countries. I have friends in Australia and the US who can offord to live on their own, work one or even two jobs at a time and still seems to be able to save some in the bank and can enjoy going out maybe 3 times a week never mind once or twice a month. Very seldom now do I see much of my friends out on a weekend now unlike how it was 10 years ago.


We are really just living by means here in Ireland with not much to show at the end of a paycheck .

Idbatterim

pilly wrote: »

I get all that, I went from a salary of 70k to zero back in 2008 when things crashed and it has caused to me to be more careful alright. But to state that it's a choice between coffee or a house is definitely over simplifying the issues as you've outlined above.

Just bugs me the way people judge others all the time. Same thing about the bottled water, you're out in the car, dying of the thirst, what do you do? Run into someone's house and ask can you have a sup of water? No, you go into a shop and buy a bottle of water. It's a hell of lot better than buying some sugar filled drink.

People always bought drinks for in a car or when walking or whatever, it's just changed toward water, which is a good thing.

There's an awful of lot of older people looking down on the younger generation with the attitude of "it's all your own fault". It's patronising.

And I'm an "older" person.

I always have a few small bottles of water in the boot...

Permabear

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cantdecide

I was working full time for a miserable recessionary wage, living at home (at now age 36), running my [cheap and economical car] and funding my part time degree, don't smoke and basically don't drink and the difference between that and giving up all ambition was about €45/wk. I essentially worked full time to avoid a gap in my CV (considering that taking the business course has yet to pay off). No amount of budgeting and penny pinching would help. I was too poorly paid and too single.

I feel I'm proof that it doesn't take desperately bad circumstances or desperately bad luck to end up with little or nothing. I really understand why some people give up and ride the system. I've found myself out of work now (in my last year of college) and am anxious to get back to work but rationally speaking, unless I get lucky enough to find a job that leads to a wage in excess of €30k with the promise of hanging onto it for the foreseeable future, I'll be stuck at home with my ma past age 40. Frankly, being demoralised by still enduring a financial crisis and now having a housing crisis to contend with would be a very justifiable emotion.

LirW

Also where I love the tap water isn't particularly great. I have a water filter which makes it marginally better. Some of my neighbors only use it for cooking but get bottled water for drinking (can't blame them).
When I have family over they usually get themselves the big 5l water bottles because they find the water pretty bad in my house.

But yeah, I share pillys sentiment.
I'd be one of the younger generation and we're both good with money but even then we find ourselves in tight situations sometimes. These things happen.

I think what dampens the mood a little bit in younger people are the ever-rising cost of living while getting good employment is getting more and more difficult. Everyone needs a degree for everything, without one your CV might not even get looked at. In plenty of fields you'll have minimal chances of progressing in your career and make better money, while the costs around you rocket up.

Plus there is the huge wave of automation looming around the corner. We'll see more automation in the next 20 years while people that are in their late 20s now won't retire for another 40 years... if their jobs are still around. This is a huge uncertainty. The truth is that nobody really knows in what state pension funds will be in in 40 years. I'm not saying it makes no sense paying into a pension but with plenty of jobs being wiped out (and I personally I'm pretty pro technology anything) it seems like there are better ways to invest your money.
Especially because plenty of people need their money now because they are living paycheck by paycheck as is.

I also think that there is horrible begrudgery going on. It seems like Irish people have a hard time understanding that people genuinely can't afford certain things. I've seen that in various healthcare debates where people having health insurance genuinely can't understand that there are poor people that can't afford health insurance because they have it tough as is.

People give out about families having two cars while the reality is that plenty of them have to move out of urban areas and have to commute. One car if both work simply won't do. Same with phones, it's expected to be flexible and on call most of the time in work.

Times have changed, it is 2017 with all the good and the bad sides that come with progress.

LirW

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think what frustrates a lot of people is the misspending of tax money. There are a lot of other countries that get better bang for their buck. How can it be that in Scandinavia with similar taxrates they're getting far better education, childcare for far smaller rates, better health care and are not getting fleeced from various insurances every year.
That's one thing I learned after moving here that back home the tax money is differently spend and you can see that in some areas like insurance or childcare. It would cost 1k for full-time creche for my baby while I paid 350 Euro a month for the same service back home and from the age of 3 on it was free.
Or the state of public transport. Why does it work a lot better in other countries with similar tax rates?

There can be an awful lot of tweaking be done in that regard.

I like living here though, don't get me wrong.

Permabear

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Electric Sheep

pilly wrote: »

Just bugs me the way people judge others all the time. Same thing about the bottled water, you're out in the car, dying of the thirst, what do you do? Run into someone's house and ask can you have a sup of water? No, you go into a shop and buy a bottle of water. It's a hell of lot better than buying some sugar filled drink.

People always bought drinks for in a car or when walking or whatever, it's just changed toward water, which is a good thing.

There's an awful of lot of older people looking down on the younger generation with the attitude of "it's all your own fault". It's patronising.

And I'm an "older" person.

Reusable insulated water bottle that you fill from your tap before getting into the car?

The amount of landfill created by the bottled water industry is a shame and a scandal to me.

I've notice that at a lot of conferences these days in the US, they have stopped with the bottled water and have jugs of filtered water and glasses on the tables instead. It makes a lot more sense to me.

LirW

That's the thing though I gladly pay high taxes if the service is right.
But plenty of roads are in a state, working people have to pay horrific childcare bills, the healthcare system is in a shameful condition, young people have trouble getting onto the road because of the ever increasing insurance and regulations what car they can't drive. For the average working joe, where is all of that service for the high income tax they pay from the laughably small threshold on?

Sleepy

Might have something to do with it tbh...

zedhead

I do think there are people at both ends of the spectrum, but it is a lot about choice. I just bought my first home and while we were saving it was tough - when we did eat out it was always using groupon vouchers etc, no holidays, paying over the odds for insurance on a 14 year old car because I couldnt afford the loan on the mortgage application, and while people may think it doesn't count, I would treat myself to a takeaway coffee once or twice a month - i wouldn't even have considered a daily coffee or buying my lunch every day instead of bringing it in (which the majority of my coworkers do and a lot of people I know).

People on here saying how hard it is to get a decent job but where I work we are hiring a number of positions and I cannot believe the people coming in for interview. People who have not done research on the job or the company, not bothered to dress appropriatly for the interview (of 8 people we interviewed for a role recently half turned up in jeans and only one wore a suit). People seem to expect to be handed the job for just turning up and having a CV which has relevant experience listed.

All the people I know who complain about having no money all the time, or never being able to buy a house or afford rent all live at home and flit their money away on meals out, new clothes, cars, takeaways, drinking etc but constantly act like they have no life because they have no money. Little to no savings and think life owes them something. There are absolute genuine cases of people struggling, but there is absolutely a sense of entitlement among a huge amount of people from a lot of the 20-35 age group (of which I fall into myself).

Idbatterim

all of this "Im happy to pay more taxes for better services" LOL! people saying this are one of the masses paying virtually nothing into the system in direct taxes unemployed or is actually off their head in thinking what you will get in return, is worth it for the increases in taxes.

server down

draiochtanois wrote: »

Sorry but actually it is ....

It's not just the takeaway coffee (365*2*3), it's the couple of music festivals per year (2*750), the eating out for breakfast & lunch, the takeaways, the cigarettes, the vinyl collection (Vinyl may in theory sound better but it doesn't make up for the lack of skill mixing or your poor taste in music) the drugs they will snort or ingest on the multiple nights out at the weekend.

You just keep repeating the same old tired **** don’t you?

Permabear

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eviltwin

pilly wrote: »

Now get off the stage, coffee is not going to pay the deposit for a house no matter what way you look at it. I could do the maths but I know you're just being facetious.

Does help though. I lived on basics when I was saving for my deposit, no treats at all. I had the deposit within a year.

eviltwin

I bought my house 15 yrs ago. I was just out of college and working in a basic job. Husbag was in low paid employment. We had a child which affects lending potential. We were still able to buy a house though, in Dublin and have a life. I look at my daughter now, she won't be able to rent in Dublin let alone buy despite having a better job and no baggage. How did things get this bad?

Ronaldinho

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

If I hear another person tell me the reason most of my generation will never afford a house is takeaway coffee I'm gonna smack them with my avocado toast.

The economy has been stacked in such a way that if you don't come from a family with money, you're going to be scraping by all your life. Wages are dreadful, rents and house prices are sky high. Let me drink my mother flipping coffee so I can summon the will to live in this late stage capitalist dystopia, thanks.

With a negative, defeatist attitude like that you'll never make the most of your potential, regardless of whether you come from a wealthy family.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ask any Clerical Officer, personal enrichment is rarely achieved on a weekly wage of under €500.

Permabear

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cantdecide

eviltwin wrote: »

Does help though. I lived on basics when I was saving for my deposit, no treats at all. I had the deposit within a year.

eviltwin wrote: »

I bought my house 15 yrs ago. I was just out of college and working in a basic job. Husbag was in low paid employment. We had a child which affects lending potential. We were still able to buy a house though, in Dublin and have a life. I look at my daughter now, she won't be able to rent in Dublin let alone buy despite having a better job and no baggage. How did things get this bad?

You must understand that people like me and the poster you quoted are in the same category as your daughter today but with less time to play with. Penny pinching is pointless. That's not to say that one should be irresponsible but the problems are truly insurmountable for many.

He really meant it. As would I. Rationally speaking, there is little hope for anyone in a household (of two adults) that is not bringing in €50k without some other advantage or two. Working full time for the wages that many people depend on for the prices that need paying while paying the rents that need paying is a circle that can't be squared even today.

I remember working doing a menial/ semi-skilled job back in 2006 nearly lead to me buying a house. At the time, I remember earning about €25k and having most of the deposit together having worked hard and saving hard. I remember a friend telling me his brother, who was older than us, was working full time for about €20k and being horrified. Ten years later, that's what I was earning.

cantdecide

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Ask any Clerical Officer, personal enrichment is rarely achieved on a weekly wage of under €500.

I had the privilege of working doing govt. outsourced clerical work for the princely sum of €350/wk.

JupiterKid

My sociology lecturer (admittedly a bit of a Marxist) predicted the squeezing and decline of the middle class as we knew it then back in the mid 1990s.

In many ways, it looks as if his predictions have come to pass. Yes, many people are bad at managing money, but when the super rich exploit those in the middle a pinch point occurs.

Permabear

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Wanderer78

Permabear wrote: »

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libertarian blah blah blah! lets take a good look at your beloved 'financial sector' shall we!

talking about theories, shall we look at neoclassical theory and its partner in crime, neoliberalism!

server down

Permabear wrote: »

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But the public sector are the middles classes or part of them.

No doubt elites in the public and private sector are taking the piss but it’s mostiy the private sector.

Idbatterim

server down wrote: »

But the public sector are the middles classes or part of them.

No doubt elites in the public and private sector are taking the piss but it’s mostiy the private sector.

Right. And because of the big bad private sector and human nature. Who should be the last line of defence that failed miserably?

But mostly the orhvate sector? Ah ha ha. Do you know what percent of the private sector in key areas to public interest would be in position to take the piss ? 0.000001 or thereabouts I'd hazard a guess at!

I reckon it's fair to say that many of the unsackable ****e public sector workers on the 13,000,000,000,000 a year plus pensions, lump sum payments and the interest costs are a bit of a bigger issue than some fraction of a percent in private sector.

server down

Idbatterim wrote: »

Right. And because of the big bad private sector and human nature. Who should be the last line of defence that failed mistlerably?

Er, Batman?

Don’t really understand the question tbh.

Idbatterim

server down wrote: »

Er, Batman?

Don’t really understand the question tbh.

The last line of defence against greed and human nature. Should be the regulator, central bank and government, who totally failed. You can understand why the banks acted like they did...

Wanderer78

Idbatterim wrote: »

The last line of defence against greed and human nature. Should be the regulator, central bank and government, who totally failed. You can understand why the banks acted like they did...

the last few years in particular have shown how much power the financial sector has over our political and democratic processes and institutions.

Crypto Coin

People love to think everyone is out to get them, the reality is most people are selfish and look after number one, they aren't trying to fukc people over, just looking after themselves, rich people tend to be just better at it.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

People love to think everyone is out to get them, the reality is most people are selfish and look after number one, they aren't trying to fukc people over, just looking after themselves, rich people tend to be just better at it.

i particularly like noam chomskys use of the term 'atomisation', sums it up very well

Crypto Coin

The reality people don't want to see is we are much wealthier than 20 years ago, 40 years ago and 200 years ago. The average person today is wealthier than kings and queens of 400 years ago.

server down

Crypto Coin wrote: »

The reality people don't want to see is we are much wealthier than 20 years ago, 40 years ago and 200 years ago. The average person today is wealthier than kings and queens of 400 years ago.

Relax lads. We’re better off than during the famine.

Crypto Coin

server down wrote: »

Relax lads. We’re better off than during the famine.

You are wealthier than virtually everyone in the history of mankind.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

The reality people don't want to see is we are much wealthier than 20 years ago, 40 years ago and 200 years ago. The average person today is wealthier than kings and queens of 400 years ago.

always liked Michael Hudsons term, 'we re confusing wealth with debt'!;)

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

always liked Michael Hudsons term, 'we re confusing wealth with debt'!;)

An hour's unskilled labour will buy you more today than anytime in history.

server down

Crypto Coin wrote: »

An hour's unskilled labour will buy you more today than anytime in history.

No offence but who cares? The question is about disposable and discretionary income on the last 10-20 years not since the last ice age.

Crypto Coin

server down wrote: »

No offence but who cares? The question is about disposable and discretionary income on the last 10-20 years not since the last ice age.

An hour's unskilled labour will get you significantly more in return than it would have ten years ago or 20 years ago. I don't believe we had an ice age within the last 20 years.

So many people with supposedly no discretionary income can post on boards on phones worth 800 euro or thereabouts.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

An hour's unskilled labour will buy you more today than anytime in history.

is that got to do with the fact, we ve more access to stuff than ever before due to multiple of factors? i do see where hudson is coming from though, our debt problems are significant, particularly private debt

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

is that got to do with the fact, we ve more access to stuff than ever before due to multiple of factors? i do see where hudson is coming from though, our debt problems are significant, particularly private debt

We are wealthier now because people innovate and invent better methods and products as time passes. We benefit today from the vast time spent by humanity innovating through history and prehistory.

When Newton and Leibniz discovered calculus, they created vast wealth for future generations.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

We are wealthier now because people innovate and invent better methods and products as time passes. We benefit today from the vast time spent by humanity innovating.

absolutely agree, we re an astonishing species when you think about it, our abilities are limitless, but again, i do think hudson and co are actually right, i.e. we re kinna codding ourselves a bit with all this wealth stuff, its all largely debt

JupiterKid

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ah yes, neo-liberal economics championed by Reagan and Thatcher. That's worked out so well, hasn't it? It hasn't escaped my attention it led to the crash of 2007/8 and the subsequent bailing out of much of the banking sector, to the great cost of many moderate income people.

When ordinary people can't even afford to rent a dwelling in Dublin, something is very very wrong.

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

absolutely agree, we re an astonishing species when you think about it, our abilities are limitless, but again, i do think hudson and co are actually right, i.e. we re kinna codding ourselves a bit with all this wealth stuff, its all largely debt

Debt has existed for millenia, without the capacity to create debt we greatly diminish the capacity to create wealth.

To see how wealthy a particular person has been, look at the availability of products and services to them from birth to debt. I would wager the average person who dies today lived wealtheir life than a person who died 30 years ago.

mfceiling

I love the posts from some complaining about people spending money instead of saving for a house.

2 music festivals a year @€;750 a time...really? 2 takeaway coffees EVERY day for 365 days of the year (good luck finding a coffee shop open on Xmas day).

People have to live as well. Why have you got a light on when you could sit in the dark? Sure you only need 1 pair of trousers. Why are you eating lunch today? Did you not eat lunch yesterday?
FFS like.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

Debt has existed for millenia, without the capacity to create debt we greatly diminish the capacity to create wealth.

To see how wealthy a particular person has been, look at the availability of products and services to them from birth to debt. I would wager the average person who dies today lived wealtheir life than a person who died 30 years ago.

again, agree, but the problem now is the amount of debt, particularly private debt, but again, are we really wealthier or debtier? pardon the pun:)

again, we really do need to start addressing these debt problems, theyre starting to have seriously negative effects on our societies. its very evident in younger generations and i do think it ll stifle our progression as a species. i do believe the true wealth for many if not all innovations are ending in the hands of the minority, this is a problem!