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Disposable Income Gone

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    hurler32 wrote: »
    In summary so It seems Ireland is flooded with cheap foreign labour which means anyone in the unskilled jobs is looking at minimum wage or close to it be that in building sites , factories , hotels or retail shops .
    This sizeable group then have bugger all disposable income which has a big impact on the retail high street be that Murphy's food store , public house or restaurant . The bobs aren't there , it's a case of frozen burgers and a few tins from Lidl for a growing pool of people to exist ....

    Its not the only factor, but it has to be in the top 3 (but theyre all interlinked anyway). Massive problem that just cannot be touched because of the taboo at the moment.

    Don't blame the foreigners, theyre only doing what you'd do if you could get away it.

    100% of the blame goes on the small subset of irish people that blindly defend immigration no matter the cost, no matter the obvious. They are gone in the head, dangerous people, fanatics even.
    wha?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,630 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Its hard to conceptualise how it has changed. The big difference that I can see that we now have mass employment which often is not that well paid verses in the past mass unemployment but those who were employed did well.

    It's as if we can't have both high employment and high incomes.

    Was talking about this last night, my husband works with someone late fifties who is married to a nurse they live in an area where a house would cost between 500/600k today, not a hope a that a young couple with their jobs and income could buy there today yet 35 years ago it was entirely possible. Its the same with the house I had with my first husband.

    There must be someone who can explain how that has occurred.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,630 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    We seem to be transitioning to a US style economy with added welfare.

    In a periphery area connected to where I work I'm witnessing whole sale privatising of a services that use to be direct employment that paid 17 euro and hour the privatised services pays 10 euro a hour and there is wholesale if and when contracts.

    It would make a fascinating Phd for someone.

    For the paranoid heads on here there are no 'foreigners' employed in the privatised services.

    Its happening anyway not matter what.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Ok for that to be true you are earning a lot to begin with.

    And you can make substantial pension contributions to reduce your tax burden.

    :)

    You only need to be earning a bit less than the average wage to be paying higher rate tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    mariaalice wrote: »
    We seem to be transitioning to a US style economy with added welfare.

    In a periphery area connected to where I work I'm witnessing whole sale privatising of a services that use to be direct employment that paid 17 euro and hour the privatised services pays 10 euro a hour and there is wholesale if and when contracts.

    It would make a fascinating Phd for someone.

    For the paranoid heads on here there are no 'foreigners' employed in the privatised services.

    Its happening anyway not matter what.

    If something is being done by paying employees 17 euro an hour, it will only be outsourced if it will cost less. The only way for the outsourcing company to charge less is to pay the staff they use less. The managers of the company that outsourced get a bonus for saving money, the managers at the outsourcing company get a bonus for bringing in new revenue streams, and 17 euro an hour jobs get replaced by 10 euro an hour jobs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    mariaalice wrote:
    There must be someone who can explain how that has occurred.


    Yea, I know a few that explain it very well


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,630 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    McGaggs wrote: »
    If something is being done by paying employees 17 euro an hour, it will only be outsourced if it will cost less. The only way for the outsourcing company to charge less is to pay the staff they use less. The managers of the company that outsourced get a bonus for saving money, the managers at the outsourcing company get a bonus for bringing in new revenue streams, and 17 euro an hour jobs get replaced by 10 euro an hour jobs.

    If that is the case then the 7 euro just get recycled in to the job/admin/bonus of those managing the outsourcing of the services. The services does not in reality cost lest. All you are getting is non unionised more flexible employment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,630 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    McGaggs wrote: »
    You only need to be earning a bit less than the average wage to be paying higher rate tax.

    PAYE tax was huge in the 1980s and those in employment still purchased in areas that those in the same circumstances could not do today.

    So its not the rate of PAYE nor is it the 'foreigners' it is something else happening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    mariaalice wrote: »
    If that is the case then the 7 euro just get recycled in to the job/admin/bonus of those managing the outsourcing of the services. The services does not in reality cost lest. All you are getting is non unionised more flexible employment.

    Outsourcing only really works when your organisation doesn't have the specialist skills needed. This low wage outsourcing never really works without the staff doing the job paying for it in some way.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    mariaalice wrote: »
    PAYE tax was huge in the 1980s and those in employment still purchased in areas that those in the same circumstances could not do today.

    So its not the rate of PAYE nor is it the 'foreigners' it is something else happening.

    It is something else, I was just correcting the notion that you need to be earning loads to pay tax at 40%.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    mariaalice wrote: »
    If that is the case then the 7 euro just get recycled in to the job/admin/bonus of those managing the outsourcing of the services. The services does not in reality cost lest. All you are getting is non unionised more flexible employment.

    I worked a job that if I described to you, you would literally make you believe I had to be a civil servant. This job used to be done by civil servants. You would probably hope and expect that this work would be done in the civil service. I literally attained potential 'dirt' on friends, acquaintances and neighbors while doing this job such was the sensitivity of some of the material and I, a mere civilian among many other civilians in an environment that churned desperate people over and over again.

    The gross starting wage at the time was €8.65/hr + a bonus up to €250/ quarter if you exceeded your quality and productivity targets. No trickery - that's all there was with precious little room to advance. That was €18,000 + €1,000 bonus in 2014.

    So what would you reckon the saving of a civil servant without all the perks and pensions would be per head? I sincerely doubt there isn't a significant saving to the taxpayer there and I would regard myself as not being a tax payer while I did this job such was the low wage misery I had at the time. I made little contribution to society at the time while basically just working to cover bills (and pay the expensive fees for the degree course I started that year).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,630 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    What is happening is the availability of low skills but reasonably well paid unionised full time jobs is dispersing. At one stage an unskilled job in the ESB or the P&T ( as it was called then ) was almost views as a lotto win.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    Are you ten years old?

    I think it's sarcasm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    This post has been deleted.

    That would be me. I'm on nowhere near such money. People talking about a 'neo-liberal' system here in Ireland don't even have the first clue about what the word means. Sorry to be so dismissive, but they simply don't.

    Check this:
    Standard rates and thresholds of USC 2017

    First €12,012 0.5%
    Next €6,760 2.5%
    Next €51,272 5%
    Balance 8%

    People afforded houses in the 80s yes. But talk to them. Ask them what they had to do. It was rough. To begin with it was a balls getting a bank to lend to you at all. They were cagey as hell. There was no euro, no ECB base rate. So, the interest compared to today was merciless. You kept life simple and you paid your mortgage every month. Are youngsters willing to make sacrifices nowadays or are they persisting with a have cake and eat it mentality?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    topper75 wrote: »
    People afforded houses in the 80s yes. But talk to them. Ask them what they had to do. It was rough. To begin with it was a balls getting a bank to lend to you at all. They were cagey as hell. There was no euro, no ECB base rate. So, the interest compared to today was merciless. You kept life simple and you paid your mortgage every month. Are youngsters willing to make sacrifices nowadays or are they persisting with a have cake and eat it mentality?

    I think there aren't enough sacrifices that some people can make to own houses. Maybe that's why people in the 80s got 20 year mortgages for a 4 bed house on a single income (ie my parents, using my dad's carpenter's wage, my mother was a homemaker). Nowadays, to buy the same house would probably take a couple of professionals on executive wages 30 years to buy even with lots and lots of sacrifices.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    McGaggs wrote: »
    It is something else, I was just correcting the notion that you need to be earning loads to pay tax at 40%.

    Quite right - I pay tax at 40%. Trust me it's far from "loads".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    topper75 wrote: »
    That would be me. I'm on nowhere near such money. People talking about a 'neo-liberal' system here in Ireland don't even have the first clue about what the word means. Sorry to be so dismissive, but they simply don't.

    Check this:
    Standard rates and thresholds of USC 2017

    First €12,012 0.5%
    Next €6,760 2.5%
    Next €51,272 5%
    Balance 8%

    People afforded houses in the 80s yes. But talk to them. Ask them what they had to do. It was rough. To begin with it was a balls getting a bank to lend to you at all. They were cagey as hell. There was no euro, no ECB base rate. So, the interest compared to today was merciless. You kept life simple and you paid your mortgage every month. Are youngsters willing to make sacrifices nowadays or are they persisting with a have cake and eat it mentality?

    Back then the loan term was a lot shorter, and the loan amount to earnings ratio was a lot closer. Today if we borrow 300k @ 4 percent, for 30 years, we will be paying back upwards of 530k at the end of the term of the loan


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    My livelihood depends almost completely on the amount of disposable income people have. The last good year I had was 2003.

    2004 was middling, and it plateaued from there until 2008, where it fell off a cliff. I had to look abroad to expand my market via online. Social media worked to a certain degree, and more lately, within the last 18 months there has been a difference for the better.

    Still, most of the enquiries I get are from the USA and the UK, with very few from ROI.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,269 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Ever hear the expression "the only hard million to make is the first one"?

    Our acceptance of that maxim is the problem: the return on capital is more rewardedand less taxed than the wages of labour. This will always result in the centralisation of resources.

    Unfortunately, it's not something that can be fixed at a nation state level in a globalised world. Should we increase taxes on capital investment here in Ireland, multi-nationals will invest their capital elsewhere and we'll be left with mass unemployment. There's no easy fix to this unfortunately.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Ever hear the expression "the only hard million to make is the first one"?

    3fca0db7dd9fb91c8fe1d479953a385f--milk-tv.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    cantdecide wrote: »
    I think there aren't enough sacrifices that some people can make to own houses. Maybe that's why people in the 80s got 20 year mortgages for a 4 bed house on a single income (ie my parents, using my dad's carpenter's wage, my mother was a homemaker). Nowadays, to buy the same house would probably take a couple of professionals on executive wages 30 years to buy even with lots and lots of sacrifices.
    I bet that before marrying your parents lived with their parents and saved hard for several years for the deposit on that house. Bought the house before having kids. Did without holidays and nights out. Furnished the house gradually with second hand furniture.

    It was never easy to buy a house. It was never easy to come up with the deposit. That brief Celtic Tiger blip was the exception, not the rule but it seems to have distorted many people's views on what it takes to own the roof over your head.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,630 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I find the one about having children and then buying a house puzzling to be honest, having children is going to affect getting a mortgage hugely.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Sleepy wrote: »
    the return on capital is more rewarded and less taxed than the wages of labour.

    Yes it is. But of course why shouldn't they be different. It's apples and oranges.

    Labour return can't be negative, ever. You don't end up paying back an employer if trading is poor or your work is shoddy. Capital on the other hand as many the poor divil has found out ...

    Wages are spent in the economy and stimulate demand and fuel growth. Important. But nowhere near as important for creating our future economy as the re-investment of profit as further capital esp R&D investment and startup capital.

    Hence tax policy treats them differently. This makes sense for any govt who gives a monkeys for the welfare of the state beyond a five-year term.

    And that is why in the long game socialist countries inevitably get run into the ground.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    This post has been deleted.

    Your sums are right actually. I was wrong and overestimated. So now we are talking 52c on every euro, not 55c.

    I get 48c out of every extra euro I might bother my ass to go out and earn. And spending that 48c may see me lose more paying VAT of 11c (@std rate).

    We badly need some neo-liberal policy here - less tax AND less spending. Govt needs to pull back out of the economy not get more involved.

    Any sane poster on the thread still want to claim that we have neo-liberal economics practiced by political parties in this country?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I find the one about having children and then buying a house puzzling to be honest, having children is going to affect getting a mortgage hugely.

    Of course it does. So does spending the price of a house deposit on a dream wedding and dream honeymoon. It's about priorities, not about having it all at the same time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    I bet that before marrying your parents lived with their parents and saved hard for several years for the deposit on that house.

    Actually, no. They were renting and had already had my older sister (hence the single income). They were able to pull a stunt of some kind. My dad would tell you "sure I had nothing saved when we went for the house". I don't know what the nature of the stunt was but I think it involved getting a mortgage to build the house AND buy the land which they shouldn't have been able to do both. Not sure tbh but doubt there are no such stunts that could happen today.
    Did without holidays and nights out. Furnished the house gradually with second hand furniture.

    Yes indeed. But there was a grant to help people furnish their house at the time, apparently which helped in their case.
    It was never easy to buy a house. It was never easy to come up with the deposit. That brief Celtic Tiger blip was the exception, not the rule but it seems to have distorted many people's views on what it takes to own the roof over your head.

    You simply can't deny the fact that mortgage terms have nearly doubled in my lifetime (I'm 36 btw). That's a bit of a smoking gun. My dad's older sister got a 15 year mortgage in the mid 70s for a 3 bed bungalow and again, they just had a single income as she stayed at home. My dad would tell you that this sister thought he was mad for taking on a massive mortgage like that.

    I always think of the quote when having this conversation "Whenever you feel like criticizing any one, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had". The unadvantaged are the new disadvantaged, IMO. That is to say that unless you have the promise of a site or lump sum or an inheritance or a generous family, or even one member of the household having had career luck (with the right decisions, obvs), then you're likely to be out in the cold. Maybe it's just the world I'm living in but all around me, I'm seeing family (and I have an enormous family) and friends, colleagues and contemporaries all struggling and living in very modest means trying to keep what they managed to get before the recession (those lucky enough to get established before the recession) and not holding much hope of advancing without some kind of miracle. The ones who are advancing are the ones who have advantages to press into play like the ones I exampled above.

    There are now a huge amount of people who could never get a house or a flat of any use to them - it doesn't take that much to be disadvantaged to being below the low water mark and out of the market these days. My generation is full of people like that. In other words, from a standing start in post recession Ireland, a couple are unlikely to put a roof over their heads with hard work alone. Let alone someone who is single. It's possible I just need new circles who crib less, I suppose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Pension? :-) Ah draiocht! Re-check the thread title!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,269 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    topper75 wrote: »
    Yes it is. But of course why shouldn't they be different. It's apples and oranges.

    Labour return can't be negative, ever. You don't end up paying back an employer if trading is poor or your work is shoddy. Capital on the other hand as many the poor divil has found out ...

    Wages are spent in the economy and stimulate demand and fuel growth. Important. But nowhere near as important for creating our future economy as the re-investment of profit as further capital esp R&D investment and startup capital.

    Hence tax policy treats them differently. This makes sense for any govt who gives a monkeys for the welfare of the state beyond a five-year term.

    And that is why in the long game socialist countries inevitably get run into the ground.
    I don't disagree that they shouldn't be taxed differently, I'd simply argue that, globally, we have chosen to reward investment risk excessively. It's not difficult to see why either: those with the capital are the ones funding government.

    Profit will, by it's very nature, always tend to be re-invested at a higher rate than wages. Though, capital doesn't always come in the form of profit. It often comes through unearned sources such as inheritance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    topper75 wrote: »
    Your sums are right actually. I was wrong and overestimated. So now we are talking 52c on every euro, not 55c.

    I get 48c out of every extra euro I might bother my ass to go out and earn. And spending that 48c may see me lose more paying VAT of 11c (@std rate).

    We badly need some neo-liberal policy here - less tax AND less spending. Govt needs to pull back out of the economy not get more involved.

    Any sane poster on the thread still want to claim that we have neo-liberal economics practiced by political parties in this country?

    plenty of evidence to show neoliberalism and its partner in crime, neoclassical theory, is a bust


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    plenty of evidence to show neoliberalism and its partner in crime, neoclassical theory, is a bust

    When you find a better system to the sh*t one we have now, feel free to let us know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    eeguy wrote: »
    When you find a better system to the sh*t one we have now, feel free to let us know.

    thankfully there are individuals and groups working on it, some very interesting ideas out there, little or no political will at the moment though to begin entertaining these ideas though, leading me to believe, we ll probably have to experience a couple of more serious economic/financial shocks such as 2008 before that happens. of course we could just keep continue as is without changing much and hoping for the best!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    plenty of evidence to show neoliberalism and its partner in crime, neoclassical theory, is a bust

    Bust? really? Well the bread van unloaded OK outside our local supermarket this morning.
    Maybe your one was just delayed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,325 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    eeguy wrote: »
    When you find a better system to the sh*t one we have now, feel free to let us know.

    The one we had beforehand wasn't bad. By beforehand I mean up until the banks got deregulated in the 80's and free market capitalism took over.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Grayson wrote: »
    The one we had beforehand wasn't bad. By beforehand I mean up until the banks got deregulated in the 80's and free market capitalism took over.
    Banks have always been privately owned, only exceptions have been those in communist countries and those that were (temporarily) bailed out.
    Banks were much more careful about who they lent to in the past.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Heres Johnny


    Honestly some of the nonsense in here. Reading it has annoyed me.

    People spend on frivolous things. My father, or his father before was not in Starbucks buying coffee for 4 quid. They weren't in spar buying a deli roll, crisps, chewing gum and the star newspaper walking out with 3 or 4 quid change from a tenner. Granted, they were in the pub but they enjoyed that, there was no alternative to meeting the lads for a pint.
    There is an alternative to going out for lunch everyday buying processed crap.

    I'm fed up of people bitching and moaning about being broke. Most of the cases they are not broke anyway and if they are it's their own fault.

    Inability to budget. Inability to plan and forecast.

    I actually don't care if people spend all their money that's up to them but when I have to listen to it from my peers in the pub about being broke it's a pain in the hole.

    Garda friend of mine and his teacher wife. Moan moan moan. Must be loads of money coming into that house.

    Myself and my girlfriend both bought houses in the Dublin area in 2010-2012 on single salaries before we were together, me a 3 bed and she a 4 bed, we maintain both homes and all that goes with home ownership independently for now but will probably sell one soon. It can be done.

    We are both mid 30s, both have cars, both go out at weekends together and independently and go on trips away.
    Both have pensions, both put savings away. If a baby or 2 comes along we will be fine too. Just booked a 6 nations trip away with the lads this morning as it happens.

    Good jobs, I'm in insurance she's in accounting. Both have degrees, professional qualifications and prospects.

    My brother and his girlfriend are a bit younger and they are on the same path and just bought a house together in Dublin 2 years after he finished IT degree in university.

    No silver spoon in our mouths when born, just decent upbringing and a brain in our heads and a dose of cop on. And yes, we make our tea and coffee in the house before we leave for work.

    I have friends and business acquaintances that wouldn't know a budget it it kicked them in the nuts.

    I buy things I don't need too but I don't moan about not being able to afford the things I need.

    So snowflakes, buy what you need or buy crap that catches your eye. Or get better jobs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Nice try


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    Honestly some of the nonsense in here. Reading it has annoyed me.

    People spend on frivolous things. My father, or his father before was not in Starbucks buying coffee for 4 quid. They weren't in spar buying a deli roll, crisps, chewing gum and the star newspaper walking out with 3 or 4 quid change from a tenner. Granted, they were in the pub but they enjoyed that, there was no alternative to meeting the lads for a pint.
    There is an alternative to going out for lunch everyday buying processed crap.

    I'm fed up of people bitching and moaning about being broke. Most of the cases they are not broke anyway and if they are it's their own fault.

    Inability to budget. Inability to plan and forecast.

    I actually don't care if people spend all their money that's up to them but when I have to listen to it from my peers in the pub about being broke it's a pain in the hole.

    Garda friend of mine and his teacher wife. Moan moan moan. Must be loads of money coming into that house.

    Myself and my girlfriend both bought houses in the Dublin area in 2010-2012 on single salaries before we were together, me a 3 bed and she a 4 bed, we maintain both homes and all that goes with home ownership independently for now but will probably sell one soon. It can be done.

    We are both mid 30s, both have cars, both go out at weekends together and independently and go on trips away.
    Both have pensions, both put savings away. If a baby or 2 comes along we will be fine too. Just booked a 6 nations trip away with the lads this morning as it happens.

    Good jobs, I'm in insurance she's in accounting. Both have degrees, professional qualifications and prospects.

    My brother and his girlfriend are a bit younger and they are on the same path and just bought a house together in Dublin 2 years after he finished IT degree in university.

    No silver spoon in our mouths when born, just decent upbringing and a brain in our heads and a dose of cop on. And yes, we make our tea and coffee in the house before we leave for work.

    I have friends and business acquaintances that wouldn't know a budget it it kicked them in the nuts.

    I buy things I don't need too but I don't moan about not being able to afford the things I need.

    So snowflakes, buy what you need or buy crap that catches your eye. Or get better jobs.

    Good lad yourself.

    Maybe it's a good thing to mention that you bought in an absolute downturn where property was dirt cheap in Dublin and people struggled to get mortgages because banks weren't lending the way they did before or do now.

    Prices have gone up. Even if a couple on let's say 70k combined wants to buy in Dublin, they'd get a mortgage approved for 245k plus whatever deposit they have. They'll find themselves in the bracket with the most pressure on it because that's the budget the majority of FTBs have with smaller deposits. Can easily happen that they'll get priced out. No Starbucks coffee is going to change that.

    Not denying that some people are beyond bad with money but you gotta draw a line somewhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,854 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Honestly some of the nonsense in here. Reading it has annoyed me.

    People spend on frivolous things. My father, or his father before was not in Starbucks buying coffee for 4 quid. They weren't in spar buying a deli roll, crisps, chewing gum and the star newspaper walking out with 3 or 4 quid change from a tenner. Granted, they were in the pub but they enjoyed that, there was no alternative to meeting the lads for a pint.
    There is an alternative to going out for lunch everyday buying processed crap.

    I'm fed up of people bitching and moaning about being broke. Most of the cases they are not broke anyway and if they are it's their own fault.

    Inability to budget. Inability to plan and forecast.

    I actually don't care if people spend all their money that's up to them but when I have to listen to it from my peers in the pub about being broke it's a pain in the hole.

    Garda friend of mine and his teacher wife. Moan moan moan. Must be loads of money coming into that house.

    Myself and my girlfriend both bought houses in the Dublin area in 2010-2012 on single salaries before we were together, me a 3 bed and she a 4 bed, we maintain both homes and all that goes with home ownership independently for now but will probably sell one soon. It can be done.

    We are both mid 30s, both have cars, both go out at weekends together and independently and go on trips away.
    Both have pensions, both put savings away. If a baby or 2 comes along we will be fine too. Just booked a 6 nations trip away with the lads this morning as it happens.

    Good jobs, I'm in insurance she's in accounting. Both have degrees, professional qualifications and prospects.

    My brother and his girlfriend are a bit younger and they are on the same path and just bought a house together in Dublin 2 years after he finished IT degree in university.

    No silver spoon in our mouths when born, just decent upbringing and a brain in our heads and a dose of cop on. And yes, we make our tea and coffee in the house before we leave for work.

    I have friends and business acquaintances that wouldn't know a budget it it kicked them in the nuts.

    I buy things I don't need too but I don't moan about not being able to afford the things I need.

    So snowflakes, buy what you need or buy crap that catches your eye. Or get better jobs.

    TLDR dont spend money on ****e! I totally agree with this post, sick of listening to people who dont have a problem with income, its their spending on total and utter ****e!

    stressed out half way through the month because they waste their money, "oh its only a euro" "oh its only two euro" ad that up over god knows how many times a month! IDIOTS!

    oh there is another glaring example, the fools paying out E60-80 a month for their phone! newsflash, you can get unlimited everything sim only from E15 per month! but I suppose the "free upgrade" they get on a basic phone and locking themselves into a 24 month contract costing them roughly E1500 over the 2 years, if they dont go for a non "free" phone, maybe 2k over the two years if they go with a more "current" phone. 2k in 2 years, fools and their money...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    LirW wrote: »
    Good lad yourself.

    Maybe it's a good thing to mention that you bought in an absolute downturn where property was dirt cheap in Dublin and people struggled to get mortgages because banks weren't lending the way they did before or do now.

    Prices have gone up. Even if a couple on let's say 70k combined wants to buy in Dublin, they'd get a mortgage approved for 245k plus whatever deposit they have. They'll find themselves in the bracket with the most pressure on it because that's the budget the majority of FTBs have with smaller deposits. Can easily happen that they'll get priced out. No Starbucks coffee is going to change that.

    Not denying that some people are beyond bad with money but you gotta draw a line somewhere.
    If you want to buy a house you'll adjust your standard of living to save to afford a mortgage.
    Drive a sh*t car, with the cheapest tax and insurance. No holidays and few luxuries. It's definitely doable for most people.

    I don't know a single person who's willing to do that. Nearly all my friends in good jobs spend all their money each month on stuff. Just stuff. Granted everyone has different circumstances but the idea that it's impossible for a single person on 40 or 50k to buy a house is stupid.

    I earn about 50k and put 30k aside in 3 years without thinking about it. I live very simply, drive an older car, and generally don't spend a lot of money. I could buy a 200k house by myself if I wanted, or if I had a partner on similar, a 300 or 350k house.
    If you really wanted it, you'd save. People just don't.

    There's no comparison between our lives and our parents. The idea that a household would have a single old car and the only entertainment was a 19 inch telly is lost on most.
    You'd go out with no more than a tenner in your pocket and usually come back with it too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    No silver spoon in our mouths when born, just decent upbringing and a brain in our heads and a dose of cop on.
    Good jobs, I'm in insurance she's in accounting. Both have degrees, professional qualifications and *prospects.
    cantdecide wrote: »
    I always think of the quote when having this conversation "Whenever you feel like criticizing any one, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had"

    Sounds like you have a lot to be grateful for... yet you don't sound very grateful.

    I've always watched how I've spent money. I astound myself with my ability to budget very modest means and find fantastic value. Ironically, I've been trying to formalise my accidental career in procurement for business with my degree.

    I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't brave enough to make better career and education choices when I was young. I had a boorish and domineering father (major understatement) who was determined to the bitter end that his children would be doctors and lawyers. I wasn't academic and wanted to take a trade and he forbade it (sounds silly I know but that's what the absence of support at home does to some young people)... so I spent through the boom years dithering but working very hard.

    I have spent the last four years taking a degree and working for low pay and unscrupulous employers and have gone far and wide trying to find better jobs and have been unlucky. Tomorrow I'm going for a job interview and if I get that job, I have a chance that in years to come, I can own my own house. If I get that job (a 12 mth *contract), I would consider myself lucky. If I don't get it, my misfortune will continue. Remember, if I finally escape the economic crisis, I will still have to contend with a housing crisis which will no doubt make it even harder for me to get what you are taking for granted... that's unlucky for me.

    I can do no more than I have given my circumstances but luck has been against me. Congratulations on being sorted. I'd happily swap with you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,195 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Honestly some of the nonsense in here. Reading it has annoyed me.

    People spend on frivolous things. My father, or his father before was not in Starbucks buying coffee for 4 quid. They weren't in spar buying a deli roll, crisps, chewing gum and the star newspaper walking out with 3 or 4 quid change from a tenner. Granted, they were in the pub but they enjoyed that, there was no alternative to meeting the lads for a pint.
    There is an alternative to going out for lunch everyday buying processed crap.

    I'm fed up of people bitching and moaning about being broke. Most of the cases they are not broke anyway and if they are it's their own fault.

    Inability to budget. Inability to plan and forecast.

    I actually don't care if people spend all their money that's up to them but when I have to listen to it from my peers in the pub about being broke it's a pain in the hole.

    that's all great, but your simplistic platitudes while i agree, don't really apply to a lot of cases. plenty of cases where people do spend on the necessary and still struggle. the cases where people do budget, plan ahead and forecast whatever. we all love simplistic platitudes but they don't apply to all cases.
    Myself and my girlfriend both bought houses in the Dublin area in 2010-2012 on single salaries before we were together, me a 3 bed and she a 4 bed, we maintain both homes and all that goes with home ownership independently for now but will probably sell one soon. It can be done.

    We are both mid 30s, both have cars, both go out at weekends together and independently and go on trips away.
    Both have pensions, both put savings away. If a baby or 2 comes along we will be fine too. Just booked a 6 nations trip away with the lads this morning as it happens.

    Good jobs, I'm in insurance she's in accounting. Both have degrees, professional qualifications and prospects.

    My brother and his girlfriend are a bit younger and they are on the same path and just bought a house together in Dublin 2 years after he finished IT degree in university.

    No silver spoon in our mouths when born, just decent upbringing and a brain in our heads and a dose of cop on. And yes, we make our tea and coffee in the house before we leave for work.

    that's all great. not everyone is going to have a good job like yourselves however. nor does it make you great either. you can have all the cop on the world and still have a very different life to someone else.
    all 4 of you could be out of those jobs tomorrow for whatever reason, life tends not to give a damn like that.
    I have friends and business acquaintances that wouldn't know a budget it it kicked them in the nuts.

    I buy things I don't need too but I don't moan about not being able to afford the things I need.

    good for you. most people are like you in my experience. you are not in the running for a medal however.
    So snowflakes, buy what you need or buy crap that catches your eye. Or get better jobs.

    more simplistic meaningless platitudes. getting a better job isn't always viable either financially or in other ways.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭cefh17


    Good luck tomorrow cantdecide :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    eeguy wrote: »
    If you want to buy a house you'll adjust your standard of living to save to afford a mortgage.
    Drive a sh*t car, with the cheapest tax and insurance. No holidays and few luxuries. It's definitely doable for most people.

    I don't know a single person who's willing to do that. Nearly all my friends in good jobs spend all their money each month on stuff. Just stuff. Granted everyone has different circumstances but the idea that it's impossible for a single person on 40 or 50k to buy a house is stupid.

    I earn about 50k and put 30k aside in 3 years without thinking about it. I live very simply, drive an older car, and generally don't spend a lot of money. I could buy a 200k house by myself if I wanted, or if I had a partner on similar, a 300 or 350k house.
    If you really wanted it, you'd save. People just don't.

    There's no comparison between our lives and our parents. The idea that a household would have a single old car and the only entertainment was a 19 inch telly is lost on most.
    You'd go out with no more than a tenner in your pocket and usually come back with it too.


    I think you missed my point there. Even a frugal couple on an average income will find themselves struggling to buy a house in Dublin and need to look outside. When you're outpriced of the market, there's no way in hell that the car you drive or the coffee you buy is making a difference.

    It can make a difference to people who aren't at that stage of having the deposit together yet.

    Also urban living isn't cheap in itself. We moved out of Dublin and you can feel the difference it makes on your wallet.

    Some people don't see themselves in the position of ever buying where they live. They prefer to enjoy life as it is now and stay put in rental. Up to them really. We all make different financial choices.

    And last but not least, you could buy yourself a 200k gaff alright. Are you living in Dublin and wanna stay there? If so, then you'll find yourself in a difficult position of finding something somewhat acceptable for that money because again, the sub 300k bracket is under a lot of pressure because the demand is insanely high.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    cefh17 wrote: »
    Good luck tomorrow cantdecide :)

    :pac: I thank you :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Heres Johnny


    The idea that an average couple can't buy an average house in an average area of Dublin is total rubbish.

    If you can't buy what you want either your salary and savings are below average or the house and area you want are above average.

    My house is average. The area is average but I really like it. It's not one of the affluent Dublin areas nor is it one the poorer.

    Out of my circle of friends, I can think of a painter, an alarm fitter, carpet salesman, electricians, sales reps, accountants, teachers, IT People, clerical staff, Garda, plumbers, recruitment agents that have all bought average houses in average areas every year since 2007 to now.

    We are the definition of average. They saved hard for deposits got the best job they could, in the case of the self employed guys they worked their nuts off.

    Because they wanted something and knew what they had to do to get it.

    We've all bettered ourselves through training and education and most of all hard work and are reaping the rewards.

    If something isn't happening for you and it is for others, you really have to ask yourself why. What's different???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    It's all about compromises. I have no idea where you or your friends live but a certain budget is only going to open the door for certain areas.
    I'll take D15 as an example: I'd chose to move out of Dublin instead of living in D15 because the area didn't appeal to me in the slightest. For a lot of other people it's grand.
    Some cheap houses in the Dublin area are also cheap for a reason, they are in areas where you really don't wanna live when you want to have your peace and quiet.
    There are too little details to say what's up. An alarm fitter will be on different money than someone in IT. The partner of the CO can be a solicitor or a doctor while the guard is a single applicant. Without numbers in the context all of that means pretty little beside looking down from a high horse.
    There are enough people that genuinely can't afford Dublin, because they don't earn enough, they have kids, they have certain needs due to a disability and so on.
    We're in a housing crisis after all, do you think that's made up and solely down to people buying fancy lattes in Costa?

    The market also changed so much just in the last 10 years. Look at lending criteria in '07, '11 and today. Look at the supply back then and the supply today.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Out of my circle of friends, I can think of a painter, an alarm fitter, carpet salesman, electricians, sales reps, accountants, teachers, IT People, clerical staff, Garda, plumbers, recruitment agents that have all bought average houses in average areas every year since 2007 to now.

    We are the definition of average. They saved hard for deposits got the best job they could, in the case of the self employed guys they worked their nuts off.
    Garda friend of mine and his teacher wife. Moan moan moan. Must be loads of money coming into that house.

    I have friends and business acquaintances that wouldn't know a budget it it kicked them in the nuts.

    They're all well within themselves or they're struggling. So which is it?

    And you literally don't know a single person that things have gone against? You don't know a single single person that can't afford to buy alone? You don't know a single person that lives on contracts? You don't know a single person on low wages? You don't know a single person that made career choices that had undesired results? You don't know any couples where neither of them are on the famous 'average industrial wage'?

    I kind of doubt it but I don't really know what kind of person I'd have to be to be in your phone book. I'm just seeing what looks like a lot of bias in your posts...


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