Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Senior Garda who cancelled 744 penalty point notices won't be charged

Options
135

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    People seem to be missing the point. It's not about wether someone should be disciplined or charged, it's wether they can be. Even if you could get past the primary obstacle of the prosecutorial discretion granted to Gardaí, you'd still have to find an actual criminal offence to charge someone with and then prove it. Any one of these obstacles would be almost impossible to pass on their own in this particular case.


  • Options
    #63
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    seamus wrote: »
    I think this is the main issue around it.

    In order to bring any kind of charges; be they legal or disciplinary; you need a lot more evidence than spreadsheets.

    You need to be able to prove that it wasn't a case of credentials being shared. Which is probably was.

    Isn't it mad how this doesn't apply arse about face?

    For example - If a garda pulls you over because he believes he seen you on your mobile, you can be prosecuted in court on the gardas word only.

    Because gards never balls up or flat out lie after all.


  • Options
    #64
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    seamus wrote: »
    Sharing credentials to a system is not breaking the law.

    In the case of law enforcement, it should be. We should introduce this immediately.
    Cancelling points may be, but that brings us back to the salient issue - proving who cancelled the points and whether those cancellations were justified.

    Cancelling points should never be considered justified, ever, under any circumstances. You commit a road traffic offence, you get penalty points. The cops should not have the power or ability to decide to sometimes not enforce that law, period. The only possibility for having penalty points wiped should be after an appeal, and that should have to go through the judicial system.

    Again, if these weren't concrete crimes in this case, we should introduce new legislation tomorrow morning to criminalise them going forward.


  • Options
    #65
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    In the case of law enforcement, it should be. We should introduce this immediately.

    You'd need to replace PULSE really.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Cancelling points should never be considered justified, ever, under any circumstances. You commit a road traffic offence, you get penalty points. The cops should not have the power or ability to decide to sometimes not enforce that law, period. The only possibility for having penalty points wiped should be after an appeal, and that should have to go through the judicial system.

    Nobody had penalty points wiped. The cancellation happened before they were imposed. Gardaí cannot wipe points.

    So do you believe all discretion should be taken away from Gardaí? Driving a car 2 days overdue for the NCT? Car seized, fine and penalty points. Doesn't matter what the reason.


  • Options
    #66
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,091 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Rick Shaw wrote: »
    Isn't it mad how this doesn't apply arse about face?

    For example - If a garda pulls you over because he believes he seen you on your mobile, you can be prosecuted in court on the gardas word only.

    Because gards never balls up or flat out lie after all.

    Certainly they'd never give 'off record' briefings whereby they call whoevers crossed them a 'kiddy fiddler', ring up peoples places of work with false accusations to try and get them sacked, try to drive people literally out of the state by writing "files" on them....no.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    You'd need to replace PULSE really.

    Not necessarily, just institute CCTV for people using it.
    Nobody had penalty points wiped. The cancellation happened before they were imposed. Gardaí cannot wipe points.

    Semantics, tbh. Same result.
    So do you believe all discretion should be taken away from Gardaí? Driving a car 2 days overdue for the NCT? Car seized, fine and penalty points. Doesn't matter what the reason.

    Absolutely. Discretion should be for the courts, not the police. The alternative, as we've seen, is widespread corruption.


  • Options
    #68
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    In any other job that would be gross misconduct and they would get the sack, immediately. But not the Gardai, or, it seems, many other civil servant fcuk ups...

    What we need now is the points reinstated and those who had points cancelled named and shamed. Is everyone up for that too ?


  • Options
    #69
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Absolutely. Discretion should be for the courts, not the police. The alternative, as we've seen, is widespread corruption.

    And yet Garda discretion is a power originally given by the courts, preserved by the courts and protected by statute, all accross the world police are generally considered to be the gatekeepers of the criminal justice system and Judges, governments, legal scholars etc have all recognised the importance of police discretion.


  • Options
    #70
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Not necessarily, just institute CCTV for people using it.

    cctv at every PULSE machine in every station?

    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Semantics, tbh. Same result.

    Difference between not charging a guy with Theft and breaking him out after he's been convicted.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Absolutely. Discretion should be for the courts, not the police. The alternative, as we've seen, is widespread corruption.

    I doubt that would be a popular one to be honest.
    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    What we need now is the points reinstated and those who had points cancelled named and shamed. Is everyone up for that too ?

    That's just idiotic. Aside from it being legally impossible, what happens to those who had a genuine reason for the fcp being cancelled.


  • Options
    #71
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    That's just idiotic. Aside from it being legally impossible, what happens to those who had a genuine reason for the fcp being cancelled.

    The real villains of this piece are the people who asked, pressured, or used some link to a Garda to cancel their points.
    The focus on the Gardai is a deflection from the unpleasant truth that has been put to the Irish people : that they are in huge numbers, if not to a huge majority, corrupt themselves.
    And more offensively, when faced with that fact, have the effrontery to have a go at those who enabled their disgraceful behaviour - motoring offences, followed up by wriggling out of their rightful sanction.
    The hypocrisy is mind blowing.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    The real villains of this piece are the people who asked, pressured, or used some link to a Garda to cancel their points.
    The focus on the Gardai is a deflection from the unpleasant truth that has been put to the Irish people : that they are in huge numbers, if not to a huge majority, corrupt themselves.
    And more offensively, when faced with that fact, have the effrontery to have a go at those who enabled their disgraceful behaviour - motoring offences, followed up by wriggling out of their rightful sanction.
    The hypocrisy is mind blowing.

    You are probably right about huge numbers of the Irish people being corrupt themselves...but that does not excuse the Gardai facilitating and joining in the corruption.
    Police forces get paid to prevent corruption and criminality...not to join in with enthusiasm and surpass all the rest


  • Options
    #73
    vicwatson
    Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    In any other job that would be gross misconduct and they would get the sack, immediately. But not the Gardai, or, it seems, many other civil servant fcuk ups...

    Zero accountability in Ireland. Fact

    This for me is why we are a banana republic.


  • Options
    #74
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    archer22 wrote: »
    You are probably right about huge numbers of the Irish people being corrupt themselves...but that does not excuse the Gardai facilitating and joining in the corruption.
    Police forces get paid to prevent corruption and criminality...not to join in with enthusiasm and surpass all the rest

    Lets be clear on the issue here. We are talking about an average of one fine per garda per year here. And that's total cancelled ones, not simply dodgy ones.
    vicwatson wrote: »
    Zero accountability in Ireland. Fact

    This for me is why we are a banana republic.

    For what it's worth, the Garda in the title was actually disciplined and got a hefty fine.


  • Options
    #75
    vicwatson
    Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    Lets be clear on the issue here. We are talking about an average of one fine per garda per year here. And that's total cancelled ones, not simply dodgy ones.



    For what it's worth, the Garda in the title was actually disciplined and got a hefty fine.

    But kept their job and full pension right?


  • Options
    #76
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    vicwatson wrote: »
    But kept their job and full pension right?

    Wasn't hanged from a tree either.


  • Options
    #77
    Autochange
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Autochange


    Another week another scandal in our wonderful country. How people can sit back and either ignore or make excuses for this behavior are beyond me. Things will never change will there are people who let this kind of slide.

    Ireland is corrupt to its core in all types of profession at this stage.


  • Options
    #78
    ravima
    Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭ravima


    Guards are delied in Templemore. Once qualified, they cannot lie any more. What part of that do you not understand?


  • Options
    #79
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,839 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    vicwatson wrote: »
    Zero accountability in Ireland. Fact

    This for me is why we are a banana republic.

    Not so.. There is accountability.. But only for those without the right connections.

    Don't pay your TV licence and you will end up in court, but run the entire country into the ground or lie multiple times on the record of the national Parliament and you can still look forward to a massive taxpayer funded pension plan and directorships or cushy positions in state agencies or companies owned by other connected individuals.

    But sure that doesn't matter.. Not when the public can be distracted by the latest round of x vs y.. Whether it's the unemployed vs the unemployed, public vs private sector, union vs non-union. It's all the same really. Let the "peasants" fight over the scraps while the real thieves squander and divert millions each year.

    It's gas really. We talk about corruption dictatorships in the likes of Africa but we're no better in many ways ourselves.


  • Options
    #80
    Nettle Soup
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    What we need now is the points reinstated and those who had points cancelled named and shamed. Is everyone up for that too ?

    There has to be people out there that drove like lunatics in the knowledge that a Senior Garda would quash their points.

    Did any of those people cause accidents I wonder.


  • Options
    #81
    Nettle Soup
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    https://www.joe.ie/motors/penalty-points-cancelled-608342
    Yet another damning revelation from the GSOC report following an investigation of Fixed Charge Notice cancellations by An Garda Síochána.

    A motorist driving at a speed of up to 240 km/h had a fixed charge notice for penalty points cancelled by An Garda Síochána, one of nearly 75,000 fixed charge cancellations in a four year period.

    A report on the investigation, published by the Garda Síochana Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) on Friday, made a number of findings of widespread exploitation of failings in the system used by An Garda Siochána in a four-year period from 2009 to 2012 (inclusive).


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    Lets be clear on the issue here. We are talking about an average of one fine per garda per year here. And that's total cancelled ones, not simply dodgy ones.



    For what it's worth, the Garda in the title was actually disciplined and got a hefty fine.


    Works out at around 4 Euros per deletion :rolleyes:....and that's if the fine is real and not just another made up story.

    And then even if it was real who knows if it will be paid and to whom in an organisation with zero accountability.

    The 'fine' is just a PR stunt and nothing else!.


  • Options
    #83
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Nettle Soup wrote: »
    There has to be people out there that drove like lunatics in the knowledge that a Senior Garda would quash their points.

    Did any of those people cause accidents I wonder.

    That should be investigated...and it shouldn't take longer than a few hours to compare the names of those who had points deleted with those later involved in serious road incidents.


  • Options
    #84
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    archer22 wrote: »
    [/B]

    Works out at around 4 Euros per deletion :rolleyes:....and that's if the fine is real and not just another made up story.

    And then even if it was real who knows if it will be paid and to whom in an organisation with zero accountability.

    The 'fine' is just a PR stunt and nothing else!.

    See you don't want accountability, you just want a scalp. Accountability is a disciplinary action and a fine whether you like it or not.


  • Options
    #85
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Odhinn wrote: »
    They've been more or less a law unto themselves for decades. Penalty points is the least of what they've been at.

    You mean besides the 2,000,000+ fake breath tests?
    And the multiple hidden bank accounts at Templemore?
    And how they hideously defame good citizens/staff would try to speak up about illegal activities within the force?

    Yet, there are no consequences.
    Irrespective of the cost for prosecuting these cases, it should be done.
    Why? To send them a message i.e. bad/illegal behaviour will not be tolerated.

    The whole Garda organisation should be completely dismantled and re-built from the ground up.
    I pity the conscientious, hard-working members of the force who have to put up with this crap.


  • Options
    #86
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    See you don't want accountability, you just want a scalp. Accountability is a disciplinary action and a fine whether you like it or not.

    And in this spirit of responsibility and accountability, everyone would support an comply with voluntary disclosure and reapplication of of points from anyone who had them unjustly cancelled. And for the remainder who dont voluntarily ask for their points to be re-applied, reopening the cases and interviewing the people involved to get to the bottom of the reasons for the cancellation - and uncancellation if deemed appropriate.


  • Options
    #87
    BillyBobBS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭BillyBobBS


    josip wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2017/1201/924240-senior-garda-cancelled-774-penalty-points-notices-in-17-counties/

    WTF? At this stage, I accept a lot of what goes on in this country and can shrug it off but this has me mad.
    I have a lot of respect for the Gardai, but surely charges should be brought against this guy for this?

    I lost respect for the Gardai a long time ago tbh. Besides all the well known frankly disgusting stuff they've pulled the fact they themselves were prepared to break the law to garner a pay rise leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.


  • Options
    #88
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,091 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Kivaro wrote: »
    You mean besides the 2,000,000+ fake breath tests?
    And the multiple hidden bank accounts at Templemore?
    And how they hideously defame good citizens/staff would try to speak up about illegal activities within the force?

    Yet, there are no consequences.
    Irrespective of the cost for prosecuting these cases, it should be done.
    Why? To send them a message i.e. bad/illegal behaviour will not be tolerated.

    The whole Garda organisation should be completely dismantled and re-built from the ground up.
    I pity the conscientious, hard-working members of the force who have to put up with this crap.

    And believe me, that particular end of things hasn't even begun to surface yet.


  • Options
    #89
    BillyBobBS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭BillyBobBS


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Not so.. There is accountability.. But only for those without the right connections.

    Don't pay your TV licence and you will end up in court, but run the entire country into the ground or lie multiple times on the record of the national Parliament and you can still look forward to a massive taxpayer funded pension plan and directorships or cushy positions in state agencies or companies owned by other connected individuals.

    But sure that doesn't matter.. Not when the public can be distracted by the latest round of x vs y.. Whether it's the unemployed vs the unemployed, public vs private sector, union vs non-union. It's all the same really. Let the "peasants" fight over the scraps while the real thieves squander and divert millions each year.

    It's gas really. We talk about corruption dictatorships in the likes of Africa but we're no better in many ways ourselves.

    It's the "look over there at them" approach all establishment political parties use.

    You see it here on boards all the time people moaning about minor issues whilst the ilk of FG make off like gangsters. They'd put the mafia to shame.


  • Options
    #90
    diomed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,744 ✭✭✭diomed


    Ballstein wrote: »
    Was it not a case of the login details of a a senior officer being used by multiple guards to cancel points? Think it was the details of an Inspector in Pearse St.
    That could only happen if the login was given to others.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    hawkelady
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Kivaro wrote: »
    You mean besides the 2,000,000+ fake breath tests?
    And the multiple hidden bank accounts at Templemore?
    And how they hideously defame good citizens/staff would try to speak up about illegal activities within the force?

    Yet, there are no consequences.
    Irrespective of the cost for prosecuting these cases, it should be done.
    Why? To send them a message i.e. bad/illegal behaviour will not be tolerated.

    The whole Garda organisation should be completely dismantled and re-built from the ground up.
    I pity the conscientious, hard-working members of the force who have to put up with this crap.

    And believe me, that particular end of things hasn't even begun to surface yet.


    Oh really. Proof ??? Or is it barstool chatting over pints. If you have something to say , say it !! Rather than coming in here with that " oh there's more scandal" tripe. Hoping a monocle will drop into ones brandy


Advertisement