Senior Garda who cancelled 744 penalty point notices won't be charged

Odhinn

hawkelady wrote: »

Oh really. Proof ??? Or is it barstool chatting over pints. If you have something to say , say it !! Rather than coming in here with that " oh there's more scandal" tripe. Hoping a monocle will drop into ones brandy

That he used his position to defame anyone who stood in his way is well known. That he did so before he became comissioner, that he did so with persons both within and without the Gardai, occassionally quite openly.

server down

Captain Obvious wrote: »

See you don't want accountability, you just want a scalp. Accountability is a disciplinary action and a fine whether you like it or not.

Accountability for police in many countries isn’t a trivial fine.

smurgen

Ireland is highly corrupt when you think of it.i would not invest money in this country.

archer22

server down wrote: »

Accountability for police in many countries isn’t a trivial fine.

Police in normal societies because of the powers the Nation entrusts to them are held to the highest standard and corruption and criminality in their ranks is regarded as an extremely serious matter.

Ireland is the only country I know of where corruption and criminality by the Police is regarded as being only a minor thing... a very strange place indeed!!!.

Heighway61

Copland woudn't get a look in.

suicide_circus

The Rape of Lucretia

suicide_circus wrote: »

I do respect the notion that posters, in certain circumstances, should be criticising the Gardai. That is why we have mods to deal with those cases. Clearly, here, however, we have some posters, out of a forum of over 13,000, who are making extraordinary and serious allegations. There is not a whisper anywhere else or from any other member of the forum, however, about this corruption, malpractice and other charges levelled against the Gardai.
Frankly, on a personal level I think it is quite disgusting.

Blazer

I have zero respect for cops at this stage. The force is inherently broken and highly corrupt. The new head needs to come from abroad, the entire top level needs to be removed, given early retirement etc and new blood introduced.
Any further corruption needs to be swiftly acted on and any members found guilty heavily penalised.
They also need to provide better training to new recruits as well as gun/combat training to current gardai and also they need to be properly funded.
Pay also needs to looked at...starting salary is a disgrace.

HONKEY TONK

Blazer wrote: »

You sound just like the former Commissioner in the picture. Wasn't that the same phrase he used for the likes of McCabe and other Gardai who came forward?
I have zero respect for cops at this stage. The force is inherently broken and highly corrupt. The new head needs to come from abroad, the entire top level needs to be removed, given early retirement etc and new blood introduced.
Any further corruption needs to be swiftly acted on and any members found guilty heavily penalised.
They also need to provide better training to new recruits as well as gun/combat training to current gardai and also they need to be properly funded.
Pay also needs to looked at...starting salary is a disgrace.

There should be a clearout of corrupt Gardai before recruiting new ones.

No point in training the New Gardai in the old ways.

The current backbone of the Gardai is diseased. It would be good if someone outside of the goon squad took charge to clean it all up.

archer22

Blazer wrote: »

You sound just like the former Commissioner in the picture. Wasn't that the same phrase he used for the likes of McCabe and other Gardai who came forward?
I have zero respect for cops at this stage. The force is inherently broken and highly corrupt. The new head needs to come from abroad, the entire top level needs to be removed, given early retirement etc and new blood introduced.
Any further corruption needs to be swiftly acted on and any members found guilty heavily penalised.
They also need to provide better training to new recruits as well as gun/combat training to current gardai and also they need to be properly funded.
Pay also needs to looked at...starting salary is a disgrace.

I think the posters sarcasm went over your head

Blazer

archer22 wrote: »

I think the posters sarcasm went over your head

I was wondering that alright. But I needed the to confirm
Updated my comment to remove that.

DeanAustin

Tabnabs wrote: »

In any other job that would be gross misconduct and they would get the sack, immediately. But not the Gardai, or, it seems, many other civil servant fcuk ups...

Not read the thread but please tell me this fella was sacked?

Those other two pricks who accused McCabe of saying he blew the whistle because he held a grudge against the Gardai, which was subsequently proven to be 100% untrue, should also be fired.

Odhinn

DeanAustin wrote: »

Not read the thread but please tell me this fella was sacked?

Those other two pricks who accused McCabe of saying he blew the whistle because he held a grudge against the Gardai, which was subsequently proven to be 100% untrue, should also be fired.

They weren't even investigated until the Cork Examiner reported on it - I wouldn't hold my breath on charges being brought, despite the rank of one of them. Mysteriously the Gardai never received the two pages of the transcript where the Judge listened to McCabes tape and declared that it did not contain what their testimony claimed.

jcon1913

seamus wrote: »

I think this is the main issue around it.

In order to bring any kind of charges; be they legal or disciplinary; you need a lot more evidence than spreadsheets.

You need to be able to prove that it wasn't a case of credentials being shared. Which is probably was.

And no, a Garda's credentials being shared isn't gross misconduct on his part unless you can prove that this practice was specifically classified as misconduct and you can prove that it wasn't SOP.

That is, an organisation can state that sharing credentials is not permitted. But if everyone does it, and management know about it, then you can't discipline a single individual for engaging in the practice because it's de facto been approved by management.

This is the issue here. The amount of effort required to separate the wheat from the chaff and bring any meaningful charges out of it, way outstrip any benefit you might get from it.

At best, GSOC now have the data to require wide-sweeping reforms and to have these practices stopped.

From a strictly legalistic point of viw you may be right.

Let me ask you how much does it cost to send a guard to court to bring a charge against someone? Say €200? And if every guard in the country has to do that once a year, thats say €2.6 million? And say its for a minor offence like failure to get an NCT? is it worth it? Yes as a deterrent to the next clown who decides not to have an NCT. So as a deterrent to other guards, these people who cancelled penalty points should be charged. End of.

Just like any other person guilty of an offence.

jcon1913

seamus wrote: »

use the money to drive procedural changes and improve morale in the force, and you'll get a better police force. Spend the money attempting (and failing) to prosecute one or two Gardai, and you gain nothing.

The morale is low so spend more money on the people that are already the best paid goverment employees. Excuse me?

We would deter other gardai from misbehaving in the future. Thats a gain.

Or should we improve the morale of the country by not charging people who fail to get an NCT for their car?

jcon1913

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how can you fire somebody who has already retired?

Stop a fine from their pension. Its called wake up and smell the coffee.

jcon1913

Captain Obvious wrote: »

For what it's worth, the Garda in the title was actually disciplined and got a hefty fine.

First I heard of this in all the coverage.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Nothing surprised me about the Gardai anymore. They are a law onto themselves. They have zero respect for our elected representatives either.

You can’t really blame them for that. How could anyone have respect for that shower of self important mé feiners? They have no respect for the people who put them in power so expecting anyone to have respect for them is ridiculous.

archer22

One thing that used to always amaze me here was when a local guard notorious for his corruption used to go into the local pubs when off duty, there was an endless supply of lickspittles standing him drink all night!!.

Can't remember ever seeing him having to pay for a drink...I wonder is that kind of attitude still prevailing or are things changing...one would hope its changing but I suspect probably not.

josip

So who got their points cancelled?

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2017/1203/924678-so-who-did-get-their-penalty-points-notices-cancelled/

A "State Solicitor, a District Judge, members of the media, a sporting person, senior gardaí, retired gardaí and family of gardaí" are all identified in the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission report into the cancellation of fixed penalty points notices.
The GSCOC report notes the cautioning of a journalist, who was travelling at 173 km/h in a 120 km/h zone, and the cancellation of a fixed penalty points notice (FCN) for the same journalist when they were detected driving at 152 km/h in a 120 km/h zone, on the grounds that they were distracted by "news of a medical emergency relating to a relative".

seamus

jcon1913 wrote: »

is it worth it? Yes as a deterrent to the next clown who decides not to have an NCT. So as a deterrent to other guards, these people who cancelled penalty points should be charged. End of.

Just like any other person guilty of an offence.

What's the offence though?

Lots of people on this thread calling for charges to be brought or disciplinary proceedings, and not one who can point to exactly what that would look like. Just because you don't like something that was done, doesn't mean you can invent charges so that *somebody* pays for it.

Sometimes you can't make someone pay for it, and you have to take that on the chin.

There's another major blocker in this - you can't charge a single Garda of misconduct, to serve as an example to the rest. It's all or none. So the investigation has to be done against every one of the 400-odd Gardai suspected of incorrectly cancelling points, or against none. Picking out the big offenders and letting everyone else off will have the GRA down on you like a tonne of bricks.

Like I say, sometimes you have to acknowledge that the only reasonable way forward is to close the barn door without searching for the horse that bolted. As bitter a taste at that leaves in one's mouth, why throw good money after bad?

givyjoe

seamus wrote: »

What's the offence though?

Lots of people on this thread calling for charges to be brought or disciplinary proceedings, and not one who can point to exactly what that would look like. Just because you don't like something that was done, doesn't mean you can invent charges so that *somebody* pays for it.

Sometimes you can't make someone pay for it, and you have to take that on the chin.

There's another major blocker in this - you can't charge a single Garda of misconduct, to serve as an example to the rest. It's all or none. So the investigation has to be done against every one of the 400-odd Gardai suspected of incorrectly cancelling points, or against none. Picking out the big offenders and letting everyone else off will have the GRA down on you like a tonne of bricks.

Like I say, sometimes you have to acknowledge that the only reasonable way forward is to close the barn door without searching for the horse that bolted. As bitter a taste at that leaves in one's mouth, why throw good money after bad?

What message exactly does that send to the Guards involved in these corrupt practices? Basically you're saying because there was SO MUCH corruption going on re: the points system, it's too costly to take appropriate action. So what message does that send to the cowboys still there and who are thinking about continuing on in their corrupt ways..'we'll be grand once we're all at it..'?!

seamus

givyjoe wrote: »

What message exactly does that send to the Guards involved in these corrupt practices? Basically you're saying because there was SO MUCH corruption going on re: the points system, it's too costly to take appropriate action. So what message does that send to the cowboys still there and who are thinking about continuing on in their corrupt ways..'we'll be grand once we're all at it..'?!

So your solution then is to begin an investigation into 400-odd Gardai for cancelling penalty points.

What are they being investigated for? Will this involve criminal charges or disciplinary action? And what will they be?

What would a successful outcome to this endeavour look like?

What will the net benefit (social/financial) be?

givyjoe

seamus wrote: »

So your solution then is to begin an investigation into 400-odd Gardai for cancelling penalty points.

What are they being investigated for? Will this involve criminal charges or disciplinary action? And what will they be?

What would a successful outcome to this endeavour look like?

What will the net benefit (social/financial) be?

Do actually expect me to answers those questions? I'm not the HR director in the Guards or GSOC...

Your 'solution' is to effectively sweep it under the carpet, while also hoping they've learned the lesson for the future. What benefit do you expect exactly by taking ZERO action?

As for net benefit, one simple and important benefit is that Guards might think twice BEFORE committing such a offenses. But sure, let's just hope for the best, I'm sure they'll all start behaving from now on.

Your aggression on the topic is rather strange.. is this issue close to home by chance? :rolleyes:

seamus

givyjoe wrote: »

Do actually expect me to answers those questions?

Well, yes I do. You seem very certain that action should be taken, therefore I assume you have some idea what that action is. Otherwise it's just all hot air.

Your 'solution' is to effectively sweep it under the carpet, while also hoping they've learned the lesson for the future. What benefit do you expect exactly by taking ZERO action?

I don't believe I said that at all. Lessons have to be learned from this, organisational change has to be driven from the top. My understanding is that some procedural and organisational improvements have already occurred in the last couple of years on this front, and the Dáil should be looking at legislative options that make special offences of Gardai interfering where they're not supposed to, even on minor matters like penalty points.
Organisationally the hardest thing to do (and the one they should be focussing on the most) is whistleblower protection - not just saying it, but proving that whistleblowers will be respected and celebrated where they have the courage to stand up.

Unfortunately the treatment of Garda McCabe has done the exact opposite, and Garda Harrison's lies have only compounded the problem.

The first thing the new Garda Commissioner could do to begin making improvements is establish a branch who operate without the commissioner's direct oversight and whose role is to take and investigate whistleblower claims. And put McCabe in charge of it.

In any institution, there will be those who abuse the process. And the longer they get away with it, the more widespread it becomes, until it becomes normalised. It would be a mistake to assume that the Gardai who all cancelled points were "bad people". They are humans operating within the boundaries that their organisation allows them to operate in. Aside from the small number who took the piss, the rest of them did it simply because they could. Like most human beings. You probably would, and I probably would, and most of the people reading this thread probably would.

Tighten the boundaries, and they will operate inside the new rules. But you need to detect when the boundaries are being pushed, and for that you need whistleblowers.

Your aggression on the topic is rather strange.. is this issue close to home by chance? :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: indeed. The issue's not close to home at all tbh. But I find it funny the amount of people who pop up on threads like this delighted to have a bitch and a moan about the Gardai, but whose solutions to widespread corruption don't extend beyond fanciful nonsense like "disband them".

It doesn't really surprise that the people going mad that nothing will be done are the same who don't seem to understand that in order to do something you need to have due process. You need to have a charge you can make, and you need to prove that charge. Numbers in a spreadsheet compiled by GSOC do not make someone automatically guilty of anything.

Otherwise you may as well just disband the Gardai and submit everything to the will of the braying mob. Then everyone would find out first-hand what corruption looks like.

smurgen

josip wrote: »

So who got their points cancelled?

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2017/1203/924678-so-who-did-get-their-penalty-points-notices-cancelled/

173 kmh? That's a threat to the public.i'd seriously question that guards judgement.

josip

smurgen wrote: »

173 kmh? That's a threat to the public.i'd seriously question that guards judgement.

Perhaps he was promised a positive mention in the journo's next book

Nettle Soup

So there zero punishment for any member of the Gardai for the following;

• Quashing penalty points
• Fake breath tests (1,500,000?)
• Smearing Maurice McCabe

Yeah that seems utterly reasonable.


The force is corrupt and nobody in government is willing to reform it.

GM228

seamus wrote: »

So the investigation has to be done against every one of the 400-odd Gardai suspected of incorrectly cancelling points, or against none.

There isn't a suspicion of 400 odd Gardaí incorrectly cancelling notices, rather 400 odd Gardaí cancelled notices.

Exactly 442 Gardaí cancelled notices between 2009-2014, many of them cancelled only one notice in the entire period, one particular Garda cancelled a staggering 46,161 - he/she worked in the FCPN section so probably cancelled for genuine reasons.

Thousands of notices are cancelled each year for genuine reasons and the reality is many of the members who cancelled notices probably did so for genuine reasons.

GM228

Nettle Soup wrote: »

So there zero punishment for any member of the Gardai for the following

Some Gardaí hace actually been subject to disciplinary proceedings relating to the issue.