Senior Garda who cancelled 744 penalty point notices won't be charged

suicide_circus

Dirty cesspit of an organisation. The Dept of Justice, the organisation itself and seemingly some members of the public are happy for it to continue like this.

archer22

The more I see of Ireland...the more I begin to think the Punch cartoons weren't too far off the mark!!

josip

Are GSOC overstepping their remit by stating that the "...cost would outweigh the benefit"?
Would it not be more accurate to say "...bearing in mind the constraints of the GSOC budget, we believe the cost of pursuing this matter could be better spent elsewhere."

Shouldn't the Dept of Justice that decides whether the benefit of further investigation, including intangibles outside GSOC's sphere of comprehension, potentially merit the cost?

GM228

josip wrote: »

Are GSOC overstepping their remit by stating that the "...cost would outweigh the benefit"?
Would it not be more accurate to say "...bearing in mind the constraints of the GSOC budget, we believe the cost of pursuing this matter could be better spent elsewhere."

Shouldn't the Dept of Justice that decides whether the benefit of further investigation, including intangibles outside GSOC's sphere of comprehension, potentially merit the cost?

They said a bit more than simply "cost would outweigh the benefit" though and gave reasons why.

It is also GSOCs remit, not the DOJ to bring potential criminal allegations in relation to matters under investigation to the DPP.

minikin

There are two parties to this fraud: the member of the force who cancelled them and the driver who should have received the penalty points (who presumably requested the cancellation).

The driver is easily traceable - slap on a fine of ten times the original figure.
Use these funds to investigate the gardaí or administration staff involved.

tayto lover

minikin wrote: »

There are two parties to this fraud: the member of the force who cancelled them and the driver who should have received the penalty points (who presumably requested the cancellation).

The driver is easily traceable - slap on a fine of ten times the original figure.
Use these funds to investigate the gardaí or administration staff involved.

Well seeing that only a garda of the rank of Superintendant and above could cancel them then it is significantly narrowed down. The problem seems to be that many were cancelled legitamitely and to find out which were done illegally then you'd have to trawl through them all. This seems to be the crux of the matter as it would take a long time and cost a lot of money. I'm not sure if it's a sacking offence either as the garda in question did not gain from it according to some expert yesterday in one of the papers.

Rubberchikken

The gardai will never change. I honestly dont think its possible. They have this arrogant us versus everyone else and we're always right attitude that permeates the force.
I have no respect for them from the top down. Never
will.

tayto lover

Rubberchikken wrote: »

The gardai will never change. I honestly dont think its possible. They have this arrogant us versus everyone else and we're always right attitude that permeates the force.
I have no respect for them from the top down. Never
will.

I don't think it's that bad. Anytime i've called them i couldn't complain about them and found them helpful.

mattser

Rubberchikken wrote: »

The gardai will never change. I honestly dont think its possible. They have this arrogant us versus everyone else and we're always right attitude that permeates the force.
I have no respect for them from the top down. Never
will.

Fair enough. So if you hear the sitting room window being smashed at 3a.m. who will you call ? Ghostbusters ?

jcon1913

seamus wrote: »

What's the offence though?

Lots of people on this thread calling for charges to be brought or disciplinary proceedings, and not one who can point to exactly what that would look like. Just because you don't like something that was done, doesn't mean you can invent charges so that *somebody* pays for it.

Sometimes you can't make someone pay for it, and you have to take that on the chin.

There's another major blocker in this - you can't charge a single Garda of misconduct, to serve as an example to the rest. It's all or none. So the investigation has to be done against every one of the 400-odd Gardai suspected of incorrectly cancelling points, or against none. Picking out the big offenders and letting everyone else off will have the GRA down on you like a tonne of bricks.

Like I say, sometimes you have to acknowledge that the only reasonable way forward is to close the barn door without searching for the horse that bolted. As bitter a taste at that leaves in one's mouth, why throw good money after bad?

Why charge anyone with anything?

Why throw good money after bad?

givyjoe

seamus wrote: »

Well, yes I do. You seem very certain that action should be taken, therefore I assume you have some idea what that action is. Otherwise it's just all hot air.I don't believe I said that at all. Lessons have to be learned from this, organisational change has to be driven from the top. My understanding is that some procedural and organisational improvements have already occurred in the last couple of years on this front, and the Dáil should be looking at legislative options that make special offences of Gardai interfering where they're not supposed to, even on minor matters like penalty points.
Organisationally the hardest thing to do (and the one they should be focussing on the most) is whistleblower protection - not just saying it, but proving that whistleblowers will be respected and celebrated where they have the courage to stand up.

Unfortunately the treatment of Garda McCabe has done the exact opposite, and Garda Harrison's lies have only compounded the problem.

The first thing the new Garda Commissioner could do to begin making improvements is establish a branch who operate without the commissioner's direct oversight and whose role is to take and investigate whistleblower claims. And put McCabe in charge of it.

In any institution, there will be those who abuse the process. And the longer they get away with it, the more widespread it becomes, until it becomes normalised. It would be a mistake to assume that the Gardai who all cancelled points were "bad people". They are humans operating within the boundaries that their organisation allows them to operate in. Aside from the small number who took the piss, the rest of them did it simply because they could. Like most human beings. You probably would, and I probably would, and most of the people reading this thread probably would.

Tighten the boundaries, and they will operate inside the new rules. But you need to detect when the boundaries are being pushed, and for that you need whistleblowers.


:rolleyes: indeed. The issue's not close to home at all tbh. But I find it funny the amount of people who pop up on threads like this delighted to have a bitch and a moan about the Gardai, but whose solutions to widespread corruption don't extend beyond fanciful nonsense like "disband them".

It doesn't really surprise that the people going mad that nothing will be done are the same who don't seem to understand that in order to do something you need to have due process. You need to have a charge you can make, and you need to prove that charge. Numbers in a spreadsheet compiled by GSOC do not make someone automatically guilty of anything.

Otherwise you may as well just disband the Gardai and submit everything to the will of the braying mob. Then everyone would find out first-hand what corruption looks like.

Yeah, what an oul bitch I am, moaning about trivial things like corruption in our police force. Taking disciplinary action against Gardai who have blatantly and flagrantly flouted clear procedural rules, should be subject to disciplinary action. It really is as simple as that. But you can't be seriously referring to me seen as talking of 'people' saying that they should be disbanded. I've clearly said nothing of the sort.

All I'm saying is, quite reasonably, is that Gardai cancelling points without reason, should be disciplined and for the reasons I outlined. The numbers on that spreadsheet, were referring to Guards who cancelled points without reason or for completely nonsensical reasons. That alone should be enough for disciplinary action. They're not dealing with mickey mouse files here, the importance and significance of completing them correctly should be self evident.


I don't think you're in a position to say that 'I would if i could' do the same thing, I wouldn't. It's fairly blatantly obvious that doing exactly what they did is wrong, isn't that why McCabe reported it?

Odhinn

seamus wrote: »

So your solution then is to begin an investigation into 400-odd Gardai for cancelling penalty points.

What are they being investigated for? Will this involve criminal charges or disciplinary action? And what will they be?

What would a successful outcome to this endeavour look like?

What will the net benefit (social/financial) be?

Here's one. Investigate the career of Martin Callinan. An investigation into the various allegations that did and do the rounds amongst the gardai about him. How did he become comissioner.

ShowMeTheCash

Captain Obvious wrote: »

See you don't want accountability, you just want a scalp. Accountability is a disciplinary action and a fine whether you like it or not.

You seem to want to make every excuse under the Sun for shady Gardi behavior.
Regardless of legal implications if a Gardi was not following procedure s/he should of been fired. Using someone login in many sectors alone is a sack-able offense.
This was a blatant miscarriage of duties then a campaign to intimidate or keep it from getting out....

It is a breach of the public trusts, it is a public role and should be held to a higher standard if they want the people to stand behind it.

archer22

They will never change..in a few years time it will be the next set of Garda scandals in the news.
All that will happen now is they will keep their heads down for a while until the all clear sounds..then its back to business as usual again.

You can sort out a Police force with a few bent officers, but you can't sort out a bent Police force.

ShowMeTheCash

archer22 wrote: »

They will never change..in a few years time it will be the next set of Garda scandals in the news.
All that will happen now is they will keep their heads down for a while until the all clear sounds..then its back to business as usual again.

You can sort out a Police force with a few bent officers, but you can't sort out a bent Police force.

Agreed, it is a bit like the honor system but more like the dishonor system.
My main worry is to why these Gardi are not been taken to task?

Makes you wonder is this a house of cards?

smurgen

seamus wrote: »

So your solution then is to begin an investigation into 400-odd Gardai for cancelling penalty points.

What are they being investigated for? Will this involve criminal charges or disciplinary action? And what will they be?

What would a successful outcome to this endeavour look like?

What will the net benefit (social/financial) be?

Are you actually serious?What will the benefit to society be? How about faith in the administration of law in this coutry and a sense of justice?can you put a price on that? Right now the gardai are just looking like another gang.no consistency in how laws are administered.if you're lucky enough to know the right people you can get charges and penalties quashed.if you cross the wrong people you will be smeared and have the book thrown at you.

nice_guy80

the impression I get from the whole thing is that if you were well connected to the gardai then you could get the penalty points cancelled

ordinary joe soaps didn't get that option

nice_guy80

the impression I get from the whole thing is that if you were well connected to the gardai then you could get the penalty points cancelled

ordinary joe soaps didn't get that option

server down

seamus wrote: »

So your solution then is to begin an investigation into 400-odd Gardai for cancelling penalty points.

What are they being investigated for? Will this involve criminal charges or disciplinary action? And what will they be? [1]

What would a successful outcome to this endeavour look like?[2]

What will the net benefit (social/financial) be?[3]

[1]Disciplinary action or legal action or both.
Bringing the force into disrepute.
[2]The guilty parties are fired, demoted or fined.
[3]The net benefit is a less corrupt police force and greater trust in the police force in future.

tayto lover

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the impression I get from the whole thing is that if you were well connected to the gardai then you could get the penalty points cancelled

ordinary joe soaps didn't get that option

From my reading of it neither could the lower garda. You had to be Superintendant or higher.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Frankly I think it is quite disgusting. :rolleyes:

Odhinn

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Frankly I think it is quite disgusting. :rolleyes:

Given whats to come about him, thats a piece of footage that will become iconic.

hawkelady

Odhinn wrote: »

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Frankly I think it is quite disgusting. :rolleyes:

Given whats to come about him, thats a piece of footage that will become iconic.

As mentioned before ,, oh do tell. Personally I think he is Dodgy enough but please don't come on here spouting nonsense. It's like me coming on here saying " you won't believe what this celebrity did last Saturday , it's shocking altogether !!" Gasp !!!!!! Then just leave it at that.
I'm fairly sure nothing of note will come out about what Callinan has done because if he had skeletons in his closet I'd say they would be out by now

Odhinn

hawkelady wrote: »

As mentioned before ,, oh do tell. Personally I think he is Dodgy enough but please don't come on here spouting nonsense. It's like me coming on here saying " you won't believe what this celebrity did last Saturday , it's shocking altogether !!" Gasp !!!!!! Then just leave it at that.
I'm fairly sure nothing of note will come out about what Callinan has done because if he had skeletons in his closet I'd say they would be out by now

Given what they were prepared to do to silence maurice mc cabe - a garda of seemingly impeccable character - why on earth would you think that? If a senior garda starts a whispering campaign against an individual they have few protections, let alone if the highest ranked garda in the land is behind it. Who is going to employ you if somebody intimates that you're a paedophile? And when facts are no barrier, rumours can be tailored to suit the audience.

Very early in his career he was subject to an unorthodox disciplinary procedure. What that was about, and how he managed to have a career in the gardai afterwards is "interesting" to say the least. If you know any gardai that have been in a few years, ask them about Callinan. You might be suprised by the reaction.

irish bloke

Where was this Garda when they were handing out my points!!
Huh, never win anything...

server down

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Frankly I think it is quite disgusting. :rolleyes:

Ross did pretty well there I thought.

hawkelady

Odhinn wrote: »

hawkelady wrote: »

As mentioned before ,, oh do tell. Personally I think he is Dodgy enough but please don't come on here spouting nonsense. It's like me coming on here saying " you won't believe what this celebrity did last Saturday , it's shocking altogether !!" Gasp !!!!!! Then just leave it at that.
I'm fairly sure nothing of note will come out about what Callinan has done because if he had skeletons in his closet I'd say they would be out by now

Given what they were prepared to do to silence maurice mc cabe - a garda of seemingly impeccable character - why on earth would you think that? If a senior garda starts a whispering campaign against an individual they have few protections, let alone if the highest ranked garda in the land is behind it. Who is going to employ you if somebody intimates that you're a paedophile? And when facts are no barrier, rumours can be tailored to suit the audience.

Very early in his career he was subject to an unorthodox disciplinary procedure. What that was about, and how he managed to have a career in the gardai afterwards is "interesting" to say the least. If you know any gardai that have been in a few years, ask them about Callinan. You might be suprised by the reaction.

So you are basing your suspicions on hearsay .. thanks for clearing that up

Odhinn

hawkelady wrote: »

So you are basing your suspicions on hearsay .. thanks for clearing that up

No, not at all.