The 2018 World Cup Superthread

StringerBell

murpho999 wrote: »

Genuinely don't get what this is based? Beating Panama and Tunisia and second eleven losing to Belgium.

We shall find out more tonight.

Nothing tangible really just a gut feeling tbh, the way this tournament has panned out so far is giving them a good chance too tbf with the teams already eliminated.

I don't think they will win it, never did but I think they may do well.

And just for added clarity, the best I've seen comment is regarding their media and fans in terms of not going overboard

NIMAN

This WC has been one of shocks, with the big names underperforming, losing out quite often to teams they should beat.

So the only thing is, are England the big team in tonights game?

yourdeadwright

NIMAN wrote: »

This WC has been one of shocks, with the big names underperforming, losing out quite often to teams they should beat.

So the only thing is, are England the big team in tonights game?

From world ranking ud have to say yes

Adamocovic

murpho999 wrote: »

Genuinely don't get what this is based? Beating Panama and Tunisia and second eleven losing to Belgium.

We shall find out more tonight.

My internet crashed during my reply (It was a long one).

Basically to sum up my original point:

- Team Harmony. Already seen to be a lot more chemistry than the divided locker rooms of the past for England.

- Got the job done against Tunisia when it looked in doubt, and recorded highest ever WC win.

- Defeat to Belgium was when both teams rested players. Only Southgates third English defeat (others were friendlies against Germany and France)

- Way more tactically prepared. They hadn't scored from a corner in tournament football since 2010. They have 3 already in this WC, 4 if you include the penalty won from the corner. 5 out of their 8 goals have been set-pieces. An area Southgate has been keen on drilling home with them, he even hired an expect to research the opposition. It really gives them a much needed added threat.

- A goalscorer who not only performs in the qualifiers but turns it on in the tournament too, in the form of Harry Kane.

This England team I believe was seen as a team with huge potential for EURO 2020. This WC would have been a building block for that and how it has gone has completely changed it for Southgate and Co. Before a QF would have been expectations and people would be optimistic. Now going out before the Final will always be seen as a what could of been tournament.

I think they will cave tonight with that pressure like the teams before them, but if they don't, for me that changes my view of them as a potential team for the future, to one of their best and more promising teams in recent times.

~Rebel~

CSF wrote: »

There’s a mid point between the player who puts in a good hard honest tackle and your Diego Costa types. Tactical fouling is a huge thing, Uruguay basically put on a clinic of it against Portugal but nobody seems to mind that all that much.

Actually, thinking about it now, i think we probably react on a scale on both counts. Like, I don't really mind someone who goes down a little easy under contact to make sure they get the foul. And I don't mind little tactical fouls to halt the opposition at key times.

It's the outlier moments on each side that really annoy me - especially when its by otherwise talented players who don't need this sort of stuff, who aren't limited in what they can do.

Like Neymar. His diving and rolling and screaming and theatrics are far beyond the usual 'make sure the ref sees the foul'. It's childish tantrum stuff, and beyond how it annoying it is, it's genuinely uncomfortable to watch, and is fooling nobody... surreal stuff.

Meanwhile, the type of players i'd have the most similar feeling towards are the otherwise very talented types who throw in nasty dangerous thoughtless challenges, often when they were already beaten, like a petulant reaction. Dele Alli, Ross Barkley, Nzonzi. Feel quite similarly about their actions as I do about Neymar. Even at my own team - though less talanted - Grujic bugged the **** out of me for this stuff... not strong decent challenges, instead late, lost challenges that were more trying to save face than win the ball.

Ultimate Seduction

Imagine Zlatan on the end of all those crosses. I've never seen as many volleys in a game and every one of em are absolutely terrible.

Gbear

You can only describe the attacking in this game as hapless. The amount of fresh air shots, appalling strikes from distance and open goals missed has been incredible.

Any decent defensive side should have no problem against these, even if they just need to eke out a 1-0. A bit like Mexico, you can afford to give them space because they're going to let you get away with 9 times out of ten.

StringerBell

Superbly wasteful

StringerBell

And boom goes the dynamite

Gbear

Finally a goal is scored and sure enough it takes a poxy deflection. It's one of those sorts of games.
Decent play by Forsberg but the shot was dreadful - weak and straight at the keeper. Not a hope it was going in without the deflection.

NIMAN

Thank F for that.

~Rebel~

If the Swede's get through here, they should be spending the next few days on the training pitch, lashing in shots from in and around the edge of the box. Incredible how many of them are going off target under no pressure.

CSF

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Actually, thinking about it now, i think we probably react on a scale on both counts. Like, I don't really mind someone who goes down a little easy under contact to make sure they get the foul. And I don't mind little tactical fouls to halt the opposition at key times.

It's the outlier moments on each side that really annoy me - especially when its by otherwise talented players who don't need this sort of stuff, who aren't limited in what they can do.

Like Neymar. His diving and rolling and screaming and theatrics are far beyond the usual 'make sure the ref sees the foul'. It's childish tantrum stuff, and beyond how it annoying it is, it's genuinely uncomfortable to watch, and is fooling nobody... surreal stuff.

Meanwhile, the type of players i'd have the most similar feeling towards are the otherwise very talented types who throw in nasty dangerous thoughtless challenges, often when they were already beaten, like a petulant reaction. Dele Alli, Ross Barkley, Nzonzi. Feel quite similarly about their actions as I do about Neymar. Even at my own team - though less talanted - Grujic bugged the **** out of me for this stuff... not strong decent challenges, instead late, lost challenges that were more trying to save face than win the ball.

This is all well and good, I'm not defending Neymar just to clarify. But people are more worried about Neymar rolling around like an idiot, than they are about the fact that Layun intentionally stood on him.


Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of any of the dark arts. But people seem to be relatively ok with the type of player whose whole game revolves around kicking the best players, so long as they don't go to violent with the tackle. And yet, they're inherently opposed to theatrics from the kind of player, who is generally the most legitimately fouled throughout the game anyway.


Which of these type of players, genuinely makes the game less enjoyable to watch? The Mascherano type (who would be seen as an honest fouler) or the Neymar type?

rodders999

I reckon that France v Denmark bore fest is going to be the only 0-0 of the tournament.

Royale with Cheese

You'd fancy England or Colombia to do either of these. So given the tournament so far, expect Sweden in the semis.

CSF

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

You'd fancy England or Colombia to do either of these. So given the tournament so far, expect Sweden in the semis.

Sweden look solid like, the kind of team who will last the pace and make you genuinely show up to beat them. England in particularly, are prone to exactly that collapse.

Utopia Parkway

Sweden very ordinary when you look at the names on paper but obviously extremely difficult to beat. Just look at the teams they've knocked out between qualification and the tournament itself.

adox

I think Columbia will beat England tonight. I think England are very suspect at the back and the midfield set up is very weak defensively.

martingriff

My god Hope Solo has arrived on RTE. Just home and turned it on and went who is this. Alex Scott from Arsenal is on BBC

Loafing Oaf

martingriff wrote: »

My god Hope Solo has arrived on RTE. Just home and turned it on and went who is this. Alex Scott from Arsenal is on BBC

Good to have you on the forum Patrice:

davycc

martingriff wrote: »

My god Hope Solo has arrived on RTE. Just home and turned it on and went who is this. Alex Scott from Arsenal is on BBC

Alex Scott is a cracker , down to earth always smiling and a natural beauty!

The future mrsdavycc!

You can have hope solo too much hassle

~Rebel~

CSF wrote: »

This is all well and good, I'm not defending Neymar just to clarify. But people are more worried about Neymar rolling around like an idiot, than they are about the fact that Layun intentionally stood on him.


Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of any of the dark arts. But people seem to be relatively ok with the type of player whose whole game revolves around kicking the best players, so long as they don't go to violent with the tackle. And yet, they're inherently opposed to theatrics from the kind of player, who is generally the most legitimately fouled throughout the game anyway.


Which of these type of players, genuinely makes the game less enjoyable to watch? The Mascherano type (who would be seen as an honest fouler) or the Neymar type?

The Neymar Layun thing is a good example - Layun should have been sent off, obviously. But was it a vicious attack? No. Was it even dangerous? Not really. It was a cynical niggly little press that looked like it was more to annoy than cause any more damage than maybe a small bruise. It looked like the thing your big brother did to ya when you'd been annoying him.

If it was a genuine stamp, then I think you WOULD have plenty of outrage - as we usually do when that happens.

Neymar's reaction was far more noteworthy than what he was reacting to, and so has produced far more reaction, unsurprisingly.

As for Neymar Mascherano - on the purely footballing style/ability side, of course Neymar - but thats not what we're talking about. Mascherano's play is all part of the game - he's a brilliant tackler and interceptor, but of course sometimes you're going to be a bit late if you do so many of them. It's a natural consequence of a facet that is very firmly part of what makes up football. Neymar's behavior stuff is completely removed from the game, and his ability, it's got nothing to do with it. It's just his personality. It's this additional sideshow that actively distracts from the game.

As I said, i'm just as annoyed by Dele Alli or Ross Barkley with their genuinely rash dangerous thoughtless tackles, as I am with Neymar... but I wouldn't put Masch in that bracket.

I get where you're coming from, but i'm not sure there's as much of a disconnect as you think there is between people's reactions to dirty players and peoples reactions to theatrics. I think on a sliding scale of seriousness, they're actually probably fairly similar. It just happens that we're dealing with a guy who's doing it to such an extent that the equivilent on the dirty side is probably Eric Cantona's or Evra actively kicking out at people, or Barton pulling a Barton.

Iused2likebusts

Adamocovic wrote: »

My internet crashed during my reply (It was a long one).

Basically to sum up my original point:

- Team Harmony. Already seen to be a lot more chemistry than the divided locker rooms of the past for England.

-

There is no evidence of this or no way of us knowing if this is true. Every tournament since euro 96 we hear that the spirit is great in the camp and its the best its ever been. Nick Collins and kaveh whatever his name is will spout this nonsense as well as some of the current players. We are hearing its great because they play fortnite together , before this it was darts, before this it was FiFa, before that it was golf etc, etc. Years later the lads that say the spirit was great in the camp come out and say well no it wasn't actually that great at all. There is always an excuse Sven was too relaxed, capello was too strict, hodgson didn't give the media enough access, The wags in 2006 was too distracting, 2010 not having the wags around made it a bootcamp. The last euros they didn't tell the media who won a darts competition. Its all a load of nonsense and when it goes wrong we will then hear this tournaments excuse trotted out. But you can be sure Role on 2020 the spirit in the camp will be the best its ever been.

CSF

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The Neymar Layun thing is a good example - Layun should have been sent off, obviously. But was it a vicious attack? No. Was it even dangerous? Not really. It was a cynical niggly little press that looked like it was more to annoy than cause any more damage than maybe a small bruise. It looked like the thing your big brother did to ya when you'd been annoying him.

If it was a genuine stamp, then I think you WOULD have plenty of outrage - as we usually do when that happens.

Neymar's reaction was far more noteworthy than what he was reacting to, and so has produced far more reaction, unsurprisingly.

As for Neymar Mascherano - on the purely footballing style/ability side, of course Neymar - but thats not what we're talking about. Mascherano's play is all part of the game - he's a brilliant tackler and interceptor, but of course sometimes you're going to be a bit late if you do so many of them. It's a natural consequence of a facet that is very firmly part of what makes up football. Neymar's behavior stuff is completely removed from the game, and his ability, it's got nothing to do with it. It's just his personality. It's this additional sideshow that actively distracts from the game.

As I said, i'm just as annoyed by Dele Alli or Ross Barkley with their genuinely rash dangerous thoughtless tackles, as I am with Neymar... but I wouldn't put Masch in that bracket.

I get where you're coming from, but i'm not sure there's as much of a disconnect as you think there is between people's reactions to dirty players and peoples reactions to theatrics. I think on a sliding scale of seriousness, they're actually probably fairly similar. It just happens that we're dealing with a guy who's doing it to such an extent that the equivilent on the dirty side is probably Eric Cantona's or Evra activeky kicking out at people, or Barton just being Barton.

Your post is a good amount what I'm talking about though. A chap stamps on a lad (I'm not claiming it was vicious or dangerous, it is done to provoke Neymar into retaliating), not that big a deal, the other lad exaggerate the amount of pain he is in, huge deal. That doesn't sseem logical.


Player whose career leans heavily on fouling to break up attacks (and we're clearly not just talking about a majority of unintentional fouls here), good honest player. Part of the game. Player whose career leans heavily on going down easy to win freekicks/attract cards, cowardly player. Needs to be squeezed out of the game.


It is a strange contrasting view of things, especially when it is the hatchet man type player who makes the game much less enjoyable to watch.

keith_sixteen

Laois_Man wrote: »

And they won 9 out of 10 games in qualification

Exactly. You'd never see Switzerland going to Georgia trying to get a point.

~Rebel~

CSF wrote: »

Your post is a good amount what I'm talking about though. A chap stamps on a lad (I'm not claiming it was vicious or dangerous, it is done to provoke Neymar into retaliating), not that big a deal, the other lad exaggerate the amount of pain he is in, huge deal. That doesn't sseem logical.

Logical...Well, Layun got about as much attention as it needed - everyone agrees fully that he should have been sent off. There's not really much more to say about it than that. It was dirty, and cynical, but not really any more than that. Should have seen red. Shouldn't get a 10 game ban or anything. It's easy to deal with.

Neymar's reaction was cinematic and alarming. It was visceral and visual and impossible not to react to. If I rob someone's pen in the office - a nice Pental one, not your average Bic - i'm in the wrong. No one would argue that. But if the lad whose pen I robbed stood up on his desk and started screaming at me, red faced and frothing, people would forget all about my pen thieving shenanigans, cause this guy's clearly a nutter. Neymar looked like he was either insane, or a child. Of course people will respond to that more than something more mundane, and for which there are structures in place to deal with them (red). The ref messed up, which everyone agrees with.

Player whose career leans heavily on fouling to break up attacks (and we're clearly not just talking about a majority of unintentional fouls here), good honest player. Part of the game. Player whose career leans heavily on going down easy to win freekicks/attract cards, cowardly player. Needs to be squeezed out of the game.

See this reads like you're providing the tabloid response to these issues, rather than perhaps peoples actual responses. Like, maybe the lowest common denominator red top reader will just react the way the paper told them to, but for most people its more nuanced than that I think. Sterling has a tendency to have a wee bit of a moan and go down easy when he gets caught. No problem with it. It's his way of protecting himself. He doesn't roll 10 times and scream like a child. It's proportionate.

To be honest, compared to even just 10 years ago, the hatchet man persona has largely gone from the game. Replaced by quick, mobile interceptors - who yes, do sometimes commit tactical fouls. Usually not vicious hacks, but cynical little ones to hold up play. Sure, it's not great for your viewing pleasure, but it's literally part of the game. As in you do this action, you get this built-in consequence of a foul and then a yellow and then a red.

Of course overt diving and theatrics draws peoples ire, and overt dangerous tackling draws criticism. but I just don't think this "all in the game, good man, chop him down" Vs "dirty cheating diving scumbags" divide exists outside of tabloid culture.

It is a strange contrasting view of things, especially when it is the hatchet man type player who makes the game much less enjoyable to watch.

Again though, you're suggesting that the theatrics are inherent in the skillful player, which is simply not true. Salah, De Bruyne, Sane, Kane... these were some of the guys up for player of the year last year, and none of them do it. They may each go down under contact or something, but that's a million miles away from what we're discussing. The theatrics are a better indication of ego and self-importance than of skillful ability.

Hatchet men find their level, and generally are not too loved about it (I would never have ever considered Mascherano a hatchet man by the way - he was far better than that. He's just **** and slow now, and shouldn't' be playing at this level anymore). I've never seen too many people lauding Lee Cattermole for instance. Or Robbie Savage. They are what they are, no one really likes them, and they're pretty much gone from the game.

garra

adox wrote: »

I think Columbia will beat England tonight. I think England are very suspect at the back and the midfield set up is very weak defensively.

It's an attacking line-up for England, but they won't have control of the match for any length of time and will be easily played around in midfield. As for their 3 at the back, they will be shown up tonight. A lot of huff and puff from England and a comfy 2:0 for Colombia is my prediction.

Hitchens

Apres Match .....talk about flogging a dead horse:rolleyes:

StringerBell

Is Rodriguez playing/fit?

Ferris_Bueller

StringerBell wrote: »

Is Rodriguez playing/fit?

Left out of the squad, still injured.

~Rebel~

No James for Colombia... huge loss.

Had looked like he'd make it, but i guess not.

StringerBell

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Left out of the squad, still injured.

I'd make England favourites so, hopefully they live up to their usual favourite tag

James is a huge player for Colombia in all seriousness, big loss to them

The Golden Miller

Apres match has gone muck. This will be a close game, I'll wait til half time to put a bet on. Columbia should win, but anything can happen in these knock out games, England will be confident

blueser

Bricking it here. Hopefully we'll scramble past the Colombians, but I wouldn't put big money on it. Come on lads; take care of business. Pretty please, with sugar on top!

FourFourRED

Columbia by 1 for me. Looking forward to it.

gimli2112

RTE lads very much in the Columbia camp, only Dunne gives it to England 3-2 after a struggle. Don't know much about Columbia other than they seem to rely heavily on James who's out.

Drumpot

gimli2112 wrote: »

RTE lads very much in the Columbia camp, only Dunne gives it to England 3-2 after a struggle. Don't know much about Columbia other than they seem to rely heavily on James who's out.

And what was odd was that Dunphy was way more balanced in his analysis of England then Brady who kept talking about how England overrate themselves which is bollox.

Southgate and Kane are certainly not over stating their ability and signal a complete opposite and humble English team. They couldn’t have less arrogant manager or captain if they tried... I wouldn’t quote the rags as representing English fans or team if I wanted to be taken seriously....

Oat23

FourFourFM wrote: »

Columbia by 1 for me. Looking forward to it.

gimli2112 wrote: »

RTE lads very much in the Columbia camp, only Dunne gives it to England 3-2 after a struggle. Don't know much about Columbia other than they seem to rely heavily on James who's out.

Colombia lads. Colombia.

Panthro

It's lively

Fromvert

This England team/management for the most part are likeable and have the potential to play nice football. Wouldn't begrudge them a good run in the tournament.

blueser

Fromvert wrote: »

This England team/management for the most part are likeable and have the potential to play nice football. Wouldn't begrudge them a good run in the tournament.

Will you go away with your common sense? It's not wanted on here!

~Rebel~

Fromvert wrote: »

This England team/management for the most part are likeable and have the potential to play nice football. Wouldn't begrudge them a good run in the tournament.

Yup, if i could separate them from their media, i'd actually be a fan... but no matter how hard I try in practice while watching, I can't do it.

It's a weird viewing experience... I want most of their players to do their individual things well, but for the institution to fail. I'm happy when Sterling or Lingard play a great ball in, but sad when they score...

We're weird yolks, people.

retalivity

England are very tidy.

This pains me.

blueser

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Yup, if i could separate them from their media, i'd actually be a fan... but no matter how hard I try in practice while watching, I can't do it.

It's a weird viewing experience... I want most of their players to do their individual things, but for the institution to fail. I'm happy with Sterling or Lingard play a great ball in, but sad when they score...

We're weird yolks, people.

Serious question; why do you let the more simplistic sections of the English media influence what you think of the team? It's not our players' fault what the media write/broadcast. Actually, I'd guess that the likes of Southgate, Kane, Stones, Henderson etc could do without some of the more jingoistic utterings in the redtops.

eigrod

It’s been a distinctly average game so far. 1 half chance to Kane has been the highlight

niallo27

How many times has sterling given the ball away. Great to get on the ball but he wastes so many chances.

martingriff

Fromvert wrote: »

This England team/management for the most part are likeable and have the potential to play nice football. Wouldn't begrudge them a good run in the tournament.

I~ see you went good run and not win:pac:

I do like Southgate seems grounded

An Ciarraioch

Sweden won't be unduly worried by this.

blueser

Sly by the Colombian there.

Wheeliebin30

Both at it.