Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

g1983d

Adamocovic wrote: »

What's peoples take on Max and Ocon?

Like everyone I find Max entertaining but I find it gas fans and writers leaping to his defence and describing him as fiery and passionate. If Lewis or Seb had acted the same way they'd be ripped apart but for Max it's chalked down to his desire.

I get why he lost it, although I'm a fan of Econ, and it was great entertainment to watch, but I do think Max's reputation or image around him gets him away with murder. The loss of temper is also a little ironic since he's been the driver causing collisions from aggressive overtaken many times.

Old man Verstappen would be proud of the young fella, pushing and shoving

Some drivers think no one is entitled to unlap themselves, remember the stink Senna kicked up about Irvine unlapping himself in Suzuka

tigerboon

astrofluff wrote: »

A point made recently that was if a driver went off the track, and hit gravel, that he would be out of the race too easily. For the majority of the race-going fans, they don't want to see their driver go out of the race so easily hence the major hard surface run offs. I get this reasoning.

I get it as well but there should be a punishment. With all the technologies available, surely they could be made suffer a time penalty on track. Say 10 percent loss of power for something like 20 seconds. If all 4 wheels are outside track limits then a penalty is automatically triggered

AMKC

tigerboon wrote: »

I get it as well but there should be a punishment. With all the technologies available, surely they could be made suffer a time penalty on track. Say 10 percent loss of power for something like 20 seconds. If all 4 wheels are outside track limits then a penalty is automatically triggered

I get as well and also think it a necessary evil. Always though it was terrible seeing a driver out of a race with a perfectly good car just because his car was grounded in the gravel.
I do think the run offs could be a rougher service do maybe to discourage going off onto it or trying to use it to gain a place or time advantage.

Charlie-Bravo

Lewis almost had the 2007 championship only for a few cock ups himself. Then he took the 2008 championship in his second year. Charles will be in a good car next year, and in his second year. It'll be a tasty season next year.

mickdw

Vettel could really be finished.
He ran from redbull when Danny Ric turned up and beat him.
If something similar was to happen next year, he would be in trouble.

Burkie1203

AMKC wrote: »

I get as well and also think it a necessary evil. Always though it was terrible seeing a driver out of a race with a perfectly good car just because his car was grounded in the gravel.
I do think the run offs could be a rougher service do maybe to discourage going off onto it or trying to use it to gain a place or time advantage.

Is Paul Ricard one such track. Thats Why they have all that mad colour scheme. Think track limits need to apply every inch of the circuit. Have a limit such as 3 or 5 and you get a 3 second penalty or something at pit stop.

Cookie_Monster

Inviere wrote: »

I hate all the big run off's as much as everyone else....but, it makes sense. If there's gravel everywhere, drivers are going to be that bit more cautious, and I feel the show would suffer. There's already far too much babysitting of tires going on, imagine then adding in the possibility of end-of-race for a simple spin or something? Nah, I feel the big run off's are a necessary evil.

But Monaco...
Amazing the rules they can ignore when it suits.

Cookie_Monster

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Is Paul Ricard one such track. Thats Why they have all that mad colour scheme. Think track limits need to apply every inch of the circuit. Have a limit such as 3 or 5 and you get a 3 second penalty or something at pit stop.

Just do what they do in most other series and black flag cars for exceeding track limits. It's not hard and no new rules needed, just enforcing the existing stuff.

Murph76

pjohnson wrote: »

Apparently Kubica will sign his Williams deal this week.

Ocon will be test/reserve at both Mercedes & Racing Point.

Good for him!

AMKC

mickdw wrote: »

Vettel could really be finished.
He ran from redbull when Danny Ric turned up and beat him.
If something similar was to happen next year, he would be in trouble.

He is just going to have to up his game and stop making silly mistakes.

mickdw

AMKC wrote: »

He is just going to have to up his game and stop making silly mistakes.

I'd give leClerc a few races and then I think he will start to get the upper hand.
I don't know what kind of contract he would have signed but if he starts qualifying in front of Vettel, contract won't matter.
LeClerc is the first driver since Schumacher to regularly put the car far ahead of where it should be and that was after only a few races.

quokula

mickdw wrote: »

I'd give leClerc a few races and then I think he will start to get the upper hand.
I don't know what kind of contract he would have signed but if he starts qualifying in front of Vettel, contract won't matter.
LeClerc is the first driver since Schumacher to regularly put the car far ahead of where it should be and that was after only a few races.

Vettel did exactly the same in his early career, he even won a race in what was effectively a Minardi. People are quick to put him down just because the Ferrari hasn't been up to scratch recently, the fact he's almost made a championship out of it the past few years has been one hell of an achievement in itself considering how far ahead the Merc is, and the fact that Merc has been totally built around doing everything in its power to help Hamilton while Vettel's had to fight his world champion teammate too.

GarIT

mickdw wrote: »

LeClerc is the first driver since Schumacher to regularly put the car far ahead of where it should be and that was after only a few races.

I think that's too difficult a call to make. Alonso and Gasly are doing about the same when compared to their teammates. It's not like he is beating a midfield driver.

El_Duderino 09

Adamocovic wrote: »

Think it was a case of Ocon believing he was the faster driver, also coupled with the thought that he may not be out there next year decided "why not?" enjoy himself and attack cars.

If it had of come off smoothly it would have gotten lovely attention, unlapping yourself against the race leader, not a bad way to drum up attention around your ability.

I think you’re spot on. He doesn’t have a job for next year let alone in F1. I imagine most of the top drives are already sorted out in other formula too.

Can’t say I blame his ambition to get some attention by unlapping himself against the race leader. But the execution will count against him.

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think you’re spot on. He doesn’t have a job for next year let alone in F1. I imagine most of the top drives are already sorted out in other formula too.

Can’t say I blame his ambition to get some attention by unlapping himself against the race leader. But the execution will count against him.

Ocon is most likely gunna be testing for all the Merc teams next year (Merc & Racing Point anyway and rumoured for Williams unless they go for a pay driver for the 3rd drive.) He's not exactly joining the French Dole Que.

mickdw

quokula wrote: »

Vettel did exactly the same in his early career, he even won a race in what was effectively a Minardi. People are quick to put him down just because the Ferrari hasn't been up to scratch recently, the fact he's almost made a championship out of it the past few years has been one hell of an achievement in itself considering how far ahead the Merc is, and the fact that Merc has been totally built around doing everything in its power to help Hamilton while Vettel's had to fight his world champion teammate too.

While Vettel had to fight his team mate....
You are having a laugh.

Harika

Vettels weakness is that he needs a car to run away in front, close car to car races are not his strength. He never won a race outside the top 3 starting positions, what is telling. Let him run away in front and you won't catch him. We will see how Leclerc will be doing with the big guns.
On the other side, Gasly disappointed me in the last few races. He qualified great but races were lackluster and hartley started beating him there. Might be a toro rosso issue, hope he turns it around next year.

mickdw

Hartley fighting for his career and gasly just going through the motions til he gets into the red bull.
Didn't Dr Marko tell Hartley to beat gasly for remainder of season if he wanted any hint of a drive again.

Burkie1203

mickdw wrote: »

While Vettel had to fight his team mate....
You are having a laugh.

While Seb didn't have to fight Kimi, Ferrari didn't use Kimi to aid Seb at all in the same way Merc used Bottas as a wingman and it made a difference.

vectra

Harika wrote: »

Vettels weakness is that he needs a car to run away in front, close car to car races are not his strength. He never won a race outside the top 3 starting positions, what is telling. Let him run away in front and you won't catch him. We will see how Leclerc will be doing with the big guns.
.

Hang on a sec,
We have witnessed Vettel charging from the back in a very impressive manner over the years.
But, isn't that precisely what Merc is?
A car that runs away at the front?
Take that away from Hamilton and see where he would be.
And as for Vettel "Running away" from Red Bull as someone said in an earlier post.
Would you not think that he was under the illusion that the move was to a better team to give him further chance of titles as the Red Bull Title winning days were finished for now ( as has been seen )
Isn't that exactly what Hamilton did moving from mcLaren to Merc, only it worked out to be an excellent car for him.

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

Hang on a sec,
We have witnessed Vettel charging from the back in a very impressive manner over the years.
But, isn't that precisely what Merc is?
A car that runs away at the front?
Take that away from Hamilton and see where he would be.
And as for Vettel "Running away" from Red Bull as someone said in an earlier post.
Would you not think that he was under the illusion that the move was to a better team to give him further chance of titles as the Red Bull Title winning days were finished for now ( as has been seen )
Isn't that exactly what Hamilton did moving from mcLaren to Merc, only it worked out to be an excellent car for him.

Vettel was the sitting 4 time champion and Danny Richard turned up and slaughtered him in his own team. I'm certainly not a Hamilton fan but his move was very different. He didn't have a young driver come in and show him the door.
If Ocon was brought into Mercedes next year and comprehensively beat Hamilton then Hamilton suddenly signed a deal else where, it would similarly be seen as running away.

vectra

mickdw wrote: »

Vettel was the sitting 4 time champion and Danny Richard turned up and slaughtered him in his own team. I'm certainly not a Hamilton fan but his move was very different. He didn't have a young driver come in and show him the door.
If Ocon was brought into Mercedes next year and comprehensively beat Hamilton then Hamilton suddenly signed a deal else where, it would similarly be seen as running away.

Not at all the same.
As I said, Vettel knew the red bull winning days were gone so it was time to move on,
As for Hamilton moving from Merc?
Why would he when it is still the team to beat, Unlike Red Bull when Vettel left.

Harika

vectra wrote: »

Not at all the same.
As I said, Vettel knew the red bull winning days were gone so it was time to move on,
As for Hamilton moving from Merc?
Why would he when it is still the team to beat, Unlike Red Bull when Vettel left.

Vettel said himself, that he lost motivation and needed to do something new. After winning 4 back to back titles, suddenly not even beating your team mate anymore is hard on your motivation. Ric won three races!
If Hamilton moves, the only logical destination is Ferrari. So if Vettel won't make it next season, he might be replaced by a then six time champion.

vectra

Harika wrote: »

Vettel said himself, that he lost motivation and needed to do something new. After winning 4 back to back titles, suddenly not even beating your team mate anymore is hard on your motivation. Ric won three races!
If Hamilton moves, the only logical destination is Ferrari. So if Vettel won't make it next season, he might be replaced by a then six time champion.

Of course he lost motivation,
Hard to keep it when you are in a team that you know in your heart and soul their chances of a title for the coming years are zero.

Hamilton won't go anywhere while Merc is on top and he has a chance of topping Schumacher's numbers.

Harika

vectra wrote: »

Of course he lost motivation,
Hard to keep it when you are in a team that you know in your heart and soul their chances of a title for the coming years are zero.

The least you can do is beating your team mate, as you also cannot get champion in a dominating car if you don't beat your team mate. Ask Webber!

vectra wrote: »

Hamilton won't go anywhere while Merc is on top and he has a chance of topping Schumacher's numbers.

To be legendary you need Ferrari on your slate. Making WDC 6/7 with Mercedes and go to 8 with Ferrari would make him the all time greatest. Ferrari has the car and as we won't see a new engine regulation for 2021, the driver will become more important as team close in.

flazio

Harika wrote: »

The least you can do is beating your team mate, as you also cannot get champion in a dominating car if you don't beat your team mate. Ask Webber!



To be legendary you need Ferrari on your slate. Making WDC 6/7 with Mercedes and go to 8 with Ferrari would make him the all time greatest. Ferrari has the car and as we won't see a new engine regulation for 2021, the driver will become more important as team close in.

Have to disagree. Senna never drove for Ferrari.

vectra

Harika wrote: »

The least you can do is beating your team mate, as you also cannot get champion in a dominating car if you don't beat your team mate. Ask Webber!

So,
Kimi had 3 dnf's this year on tracks he had high chances of very decent results.
And to be honest, only for the teams F*** up's he could quite possibly have been on the podium for every race this season, had this happened and he outscored Vettel, Are you saying the Kimi would be the better driver?

Have you ever noticed in a team that a car might suit one driver more than the other?
And TBH. I would take it with a pinch of salt that Dani beat Vettel that season with 3 wins.
Have you noticed the sudden amount of DNF's Dani has had since he announced his move to Renault?:rolleyes:
RBR are a strange team.

Harika wrote: »

To be legendary you need Ferrari on your slate.

As above ^^^ ( Previous reply )
You really just need to be winning titles to be legendary.
Which in reality is a lot easier when you have the ultimate car, no matter what team you drive for.

muckwarrior

vectra wrote: »

Have you ever noticed in a team that a car might suit one driver more than the other?

Yes, and Vettel and Kimi seem to be 2 drivers who need the car to suit their style, which is what IMO makes them fall short of the all time greats. Drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and Schumacher could consistently maximise performance from whatever car they drove.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

flazio wrote: »

Have to disagree. Senna never drove for Ferrari.

It was his plan to finish his career there however. Had that happened who knows where Schumacher would have ended up.

colmufc

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

It was his plan to finish his career there however. Had that happened who knows where Schumacher would have ended up.

He would have joined a year after he did anyway , senna was said to retire by the end of 97 at the latest had imola not happened

Harika

vectra wrote: »

So,
Kimi had 3 dnf's this year on tracks he had high chances of very decent results.
And to be honest, only for the teams F*** up's he could quite possibly have been on the podium for every race this season, had this happened and he outscored Vettel, Are you saying the Kimi would be the better driver?

Have you ever noticed in a team that a car might suit one driver more than the other?
And TBH. I would take it with a pinch of salt that Dani beat Vettel that season with 3 wins.
Have you noticed the sudden amount of DNF's Dani has had since he announced his move to Renault?:rolleyes:
RBR are a strange team.

Do define which driver is the better one I would look at their whole careers, how they competed at all years and how they managed against their team mates and how those team mates developed.
Only if Kimi would outscore Vettel in one year won't make him a better driver, it would be interesting though as Ferrari has a Nr. 1 mentality since ever and Vettel replaced the Nr. 1 then.

For the DNFs, please take a tin foil hat as at RedBull 1000+ people are working on the success of their team. If the team leadership decides to sabotage one of their drivers, because he is leaving the team, that would first of all surface really quickly and you then can kiss goodbye to ever attract talent again as who in the right mindset would work at a team that sabotages itself?

vectra wrote: »

As above ^^^ ( Previous reply )
You really just need to be winning titles to be legendary.
Which in reality is a lot easier when you have the ultimate car, no matter what team you drive for.

There are several grades, like everyone is calling Senna a legend while Prost who won more than him, is swept aside. For that it might be beneficial to die in a race car.

vectra

muckwarrior wrote: »

Yes, and Vettel and Kimi seem to be 2 drivers who need the car to suit their style, which is what IMO makes them fall short of the all time greats. Drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and Schumacher could consistently maximise performance from whatever car they drove.

And the mighty Alonso has proved that in which car since 2007?:rolleyes:

muckwarrior

vectra wrote: »

And the mighty Alonso has proved that in which car since 2007?:rolleyes:

All of them.

vectra

muckwarrior wrote: »

All of them.

By winning the title in in what years?

muckwarrior

vectra wrote: »

By winning the title in in what years?

Ok, I'm not continuing this argument as you either didn't properly read what I said, or don't understand simple words.

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

By winning the title in in what years?

You can show your class by out performing a car and team mate. That does not require one to win a title.

Adamocovic

muckwarrior wrote: »

Yes, and Vettel and Kimi seem to be 2 drivers who need the car to suit their style, which is what IMO makes them fall short of the all time greats. Drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and Schumacher could consistently maximise performance from whatever car they drove.

Personally Vettel has to be up there for me as an all-time great. I think an argument to say the car needs to suit their style is an easy statement to throw at any driver, I'm not sure if we have anything to really prove that.

Vettel has been fortunate to have a great car for his years of dominance but so are all world champions. Without the ability however it's not going to see you win.

Seb showed his ability with Toro Rosso. He even got his first win while racing with them, can't argue he had a brilliant car at the time, I don't recall hearing anything of Bourdais, his teammate, in F1 after.

With that Red Bull he was outrageously dangerous. People always mention Ricciardo beating him. Ricciardo is no slouch. No one hit wonder. He's a capable driver who most say would push for a title in the right car.

Vettel with 4 championships, 3rd all time in wins and podiums, in last 10 years has only finished outside of the top 3 twice (4th and 5th). How people can argue he still hasn't done enough to be considered a great is beyond me.

I love Alonso but I struggle to see how people can consider him one of the greats and believe Vettel has not done enough. How in your opinion has Alonso shown enough to be considered a great but Vettel has yet to do so? You say maximise performance of the car, did Vettel not do this when he jumped on the scene in the Toro Rosso?

vectra

muckwarrior wrote: »

Ok, I'm not continuing this argument as you either didn't properly read what I said, or don't understand simple words.

No argument.
I am confused by your post.
I picked it up that you were suggesting that Alonso was a better driver than Vettel.
Even though Alonso won only 2 titles with the better car and Vettel won 4 with the better car of their era's.

Harika

https://twitter.com/PhilDuncanF1/status/1062674967656062976

muckwarrior

Adamocovic wrote: »

Personally Vettel has to be up there for me as an all-time great. I think an argument to say the car needs to suit their style is an easy statement to throw at any driver, I'm not sure if we have anything to really prove that.

Vettel has been fortunate to have a great car for his years of dominance but so are all world champions. Without the ability however it's not going to see you win.

Seb showed his ability with Toro Rosso. He even got his first win while racing with them, can't argue he had a brilliant car at the time, I don't recall hearing anything of Bourdais, his teammate, in F1 after.

With that Red Bull he was outrageously dangerous. People always mention Ricciardo beating him. Ricciardo is no slouch. No one hit wonder. He's a capable driver who most say would push for a title in the right car.

Vettel with 4 championships, 3rd all time in wins and podiums, in last 10 years has only finished outside of the top 3 twice (4th and 5th). How people can argue he still hasn't done enough to be considered a great is beyond me.

I love Alonso but I struggle to see how people can consider him one of the greats and believe Vettel has not done enough. How in your opinion has Alonso shown enough to be considered a great but Vettel has yet to do so? You say maximise performance of the car, did Vettel not do this when he jumped on the scene in the Toro Rosso?

There were times when Webber had the upper hand on Vettel (first half of 2012 IIRC) and at the time the consensus was that after the diffuser rule changes the handling characteristics of the car no longer suited him as much. Then when Newey found a way to regain what was lost Vettel's performance advantage returned. Also, his performance against Ricciardo may or may not be explained by the car characteristics. In any case, I don't think Vettel is a prime example of a driver who can only drive a suitable car, but on the other hand I don't think he has as consistently gotten the most out of his cars as some other drivers.

Another reason I don't quite rank him with the others is his racing ability. Speed yes - he's undeniably extremely fast - but when he has to fight for positions his ability is lacking compared to others, which is something we've seen time and again over the past couple of years.

In short, I'm not trying to disparage Vettel. He'll undoubtedly be remembered as a great. I'm just saying that I don't think he's quite on the same level as some of the other greats. I honestly believe that if Alonso, Schumacher or a Hamilton clone were in the Ferrari for the past 2 years, they would have won the title.

Harika

The recent study of F1 drivers
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274080402_Formula_for_success_Multilevel_modelling_of_Formula_One_Driver_and_Constructor_performance_1950-2014

and in short
https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/fangio-the-greatest-formula-1-driver-ever

pjohnson

That RB link shows just how awful Schumachers decision to return was, the fact that it would drag him from 3rd to 8th.

LollipopJimmy

pjohnson wrote: »

That RB link shows just how awful Schumachers decision to return was, the fact that it would drag him from 3rd to 8th.

He wanted to race and as a fan I respect that more than some poxy list that means nothing in the grand scheme of things

Adamocovic

muckwarrior wrote: »

There were times when Webber had the upper hand on Vettel (first half of 2012 IIRC) and at the time the consensus was that after the diffuser rule changes the handling characteristics of the car no longer suited him as much. Then when Newey found a way to regain what was lost Vettel's performance advantage returned. Also, his performance against Ricciardo may or may not be explained by the car characteristics. In any case, I don't think Vettel is a prime example of a driver who can only drive a suitable car, but on the other hand I don't think he has as consistently gotten the most out of his cars as some other drivers.

Another reason I don't quite rank him with the others is his racing ability. Speed yes - he's undeniably extremely fast - but when he has to fight for positions his ability is lacking compared to others, which is something we've seen time and again over the past couple of years.

In short, I'm not trying to disparage Vettel. He'll undoubtedly be remembered as a great. I'm just saying that I don't think he's quite on the same level as some of the other greats. I honestly believe that if Alonso, Schumacher or a Hamilton clone were in the Ferrari for the past 2 years, they would have won the title.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on his ability and Ferrari.

Re-garding Ferrari, while I think they undoubtedly made strides I don't believe their car was the better like many do, at a certain point it looked the quicker but that dropped quickly. It's hard to argue against Mercedes considering they've won 6 championships in a row. As for the claim that Hamilton would win with Ferrari, it's hard to know, switch Vettel into Mercedes and you could argue he'd be dominating like he did his Red Bull days. No point going down the road of what if in my eyes.

Vettel when given the dominant car managed to win 4 world championships on the trot, even with a dominant car that is something that only a driver with real ability can achieve, and to me it's nearly as consistent as you can get in terms of getting the best out of your car. Hamilton has done similarly winning 4 out of the last 5 with the better car.

I really hope Ferarri close the gap more and we're treated to a brilliant season next year, sure Vettel had mistakes this year but I still have him firmly up with the greats. Hamilton is another one that is going down as one of the greats. It's crazy to think how many Championships either would have if the other wasn't about.

Again maybe it's just down to personal opinion, I used to hate Vettel, but I think with the dominance of mercedes over the last few years people forget just how good Vettel was during his spell as champion. The last number of years he's been trying to play catch up against a dominant Merc, against a great driver in Hamilton. Similar to Lewis during the Red Bull reign. He's still only 31 and I fully expect him to add another title. If Ferrari close that gap more who knows, maybe even next year.

Inviere

NSFW - https://cdn-b-east.streamable.com/video/mp4/s8fhr.mp4?token=L4bxUEHNLJJq0uRpnyY8Ow&expires=1542219930

quokula

Vettel is definitely an all time great and by far the best driver on the grid currently (though I rated Alonso more highly before he ran out of motivation)

People forget that his teammate Raikkonen is a world champion and used to be considered by many as the fastest driver in F1, and Vettel has made him look ordinary. He dominated Webber when they were team-mates (only extremely poor reliability for Vettel kept Mark in the title race one year) and as a rookie he turned up for practice sessions for BMW and outperformed their highly rated race drivers, before joining Toro Rosso and achieving the unimaginable by winning a race in a car that was barely worthy of scoring points, beating Lewis Hamilton in what was a dominant McLaren at the time. Then of course he went on to achieve utter dominance in a Red Bull that was rarely much faster than the rivals, if at all. For a dominant car, it never actually achieved 1-2 in the championship, and would have had a big fat 0 titles without Vettel in the car. By contrast, Merc have consistently been 1-2, and any driver on the grid could get in that car and win a championship as long as Toto let them race, as Rosberg proved.

The only blip in Vettel's career was 2014, which completely coincidentally occurred at the same time that he committed his future to a different team (and poor results were rumoured to make it easier for him to get out of his Red Bull contract), he was in a position where the car obviously couldn't win the championship regardless of how he drove, he had just had his first child, and his long term friend and mentor in F1 had just suffered a serious brain injury which would doubtless have impacted him.

Since joining Ferrari, he pretty much singlehandedly reversed their fortunes of falling further and further away from the top teams, but the car has never been in the same class as the Mercedes, and Vettel has still dragged it to multiple victories and nearly made a championship out of it. It's pretty ludicrously laughable to suggest that Hamilton could have competed for the title in a Ferrari, he wouldn't achieve half of what Vettel has.

Inviere

quokula wrote: »

Vettel is definitely an all time great and by far the best driver on the grid currently

That's a big big statement to make, and while I've a lot of time for Seb, I think to say he's by far much better than anyone else on the grid is not at all accurate.

muckwarrior

quokula wrote: »

People forget that his teammate Raikkonen is a world champion and used to be considered by many as the fastest driver in F1, and Vettel has made him look ordinary.

If Vettel made him look ordinary then what did Alonso do in 2014 when he managed to score 3x the points and finish ahead of him in all but one race?

quokula

muckwarrior wrote: »

If Vettel made him look ordinary then what did Alonso do in 2014 when he managed to score 3x the points and finish ahead of him in all but one race?

Like I said, I rate Alonso more highly. The two of them have been a cut above the rest of the field for the last decade.

muckwarrior

quokula wrote: »

Like I said, I rate Alonso more highly. The two of them have been a cut above the rest of the field for the last decade.

Fair enough. I really don't see how you wouldn't put Hamilton in the same category as Vettel though, and I say that as someone who can't bloody stand him.