cycling and danger - actual and//or perceived?

magicbastarder

partly to take the debate away from the latest fatality thread.

i was just reading that cycle commuting jumped - between the 2011 and 2016 censuses - by 46%. obviously, that does not mean that all forms of cycling have seen a similar increase, but let's take it as a crude baseline for the sake of argument.

all other things being equal, you might expect a similar jump in cycling fatalities, based on there being that many more cyclists on the road - but couple that with an increase in cars on the road in the same period, and yeah, i guess there's an easy argument to make that cycling *has* become more dangerous (i'm not saying 'easy' conflates with 'right').

obviously, one big effect (apart from the obvious immedaite one) of each fatality is to make even people who would generally be confident on the road, start to worry about cycling, and that bleeds into a less cycling friendly society as fewer people are willing to take up cycling. and i think that even if this year is a statistical blip, that the longer term effects are still going to be harmful.

magicbastarder

i know that's a bit of a jumble of ideas with no real point - i only took cycling up again a few years ago, so i have no long term baseline on which to base my perception of danger. maybe i'm lucky with my commute too - most of the parts where i suppose the danger is greatest, it's volume and type of traffic, which i can adjust for, rather than blind junctions, etc. which would be more insidious.

and - touch wood - i haven't fallen off the bike or had an incident in the last few years since i dusted the steed off.

Macy0161

Not sure the danger in terms of risk is as great as it can sometimes feel, however, I do find the blatant disregard many have for others lives extremely uncomfortable. I just can't square in my head the mentality of people who will use the behaviour of others as an excuse to risk the life of someone else - and that's exactly what happens when rlj/ 10 a breast (or whatever the latest bs is) is used as an excuse for a punishment/ close pass/ kill/ maim.

07Lapierre

I think "Danger" is relative to your cycling ability and experience. I'm 49 years old...been cycling since I can walk, so to me, cycling feels safe. It also depends on where you cycle and what experiences you have had in the past.

I also think there's a whole generation out there who have never cycled, who were driven to the creche, to school and probably drove their first car to college! As far as they're concerned, the roads are for motorised vehicle only and drive accordingly. they dont understand what its like to to have a car whizz past you at 100kph with only mm's to spare.

Lumen

I seem to fall off about once a year, in what might be termed "single vehicle accidents".

I haven't noticed this changing much over time.

Some might consider this ineptitude but I consider it robust empiricism. How do you know where the limits are unless you cross them? Repeatedly.

Tombo2001

It might be just that the near misses are more obvious on a bike.

When a car passes you with a three feet gap or less, you know it......and you know you are a pothole away from being clobbered; and its scary.

Phones/distraction are a huge issue, massively so if your're on a bike but in the car too.

The amount of noddies I see is unreal :mad:

I'd feel 100% safer on the road if I knew with certainly the person coming behind me had their hands at 10-2 on the wheel and was in a position to check mirrors etc. regularly.

Pinch Flat

I use the bike for different things - so club cyclist, regular weekend spins / sportive and a daily commuter. Based in Dublin. I've been back on the bike about 8 years now. I've seen a big change from then to now in terms of motorists behavior and the urgency and crazy things people will do in order to save a few seconds on the roads. I used to cycle in Dublin in 1994 - 1995, and it felt a lot safer. That was with no safety gear, no hi-vis and sometimes no lights.

My own experiences vary. In all the time in Dublin commuting, I've never been beeped and had a few aggressive encounters - mainly with taxis and white van men, which sort of goes with their general behaviour on the roads.

There's a lot of morons on the roads, 2 wheels and 4 wheels. My own experience is more dozy / distracted motorists rather than those actively acting aggressively towards me. So the times I've nearly come a cropper are where people pulled out into roundabouts / in front of me at junctions, or drifted over while texting / eating cereal / applying make up / shaving. Left hooking is still a huge problem and unless I cycle confidently and assertively, these will be a daily occurrence.

It's the weekends where I've had the most scares. Group taken down by a (suspected) drunk driver probably the most notable about 2 years ago. Lots of risky overtaking on every weekend spin - so fast / close passes, over single / double continuous lines, into oncoming traffic, around blind bends / over hills etc. It's the norm now in my own experience. People in Lycra cycling seems to bring on a different reaction in certain drivers.

But what probably makes me feel most uncomfortable about cycling is travelling solo at the weekends. Recently, I was taking a solo spin from my home in Dublin to Tullamore - about 100km door to door along R and N roads. It was a while that I'd done a spin like this - all otehrs would have been in a group cycling.

Alone on the road - despite having hi-vis / strobe / helmet / insured and paying "road atx" for good measure, and cycling safely and responsibly, the amount of close passes and crazy over taking was unreal. Cars regularly passed me at 100kph within a coup,e of inches. Left hooked and close passed twice within 15 minutes of setting off from my house. At about 8.30am on a Sunday morning. I was kind of glad to get to my destination.

The numbers of cyclists killed has made me think. Do I stop now? Just give it up? Or do I become one of the numbers that's making cycling normal building u pa critical mass and a regular activity like other mainland European countries?

07Lapierre wrote: »

I also think there's a whole generation out there who have never cycled, who were driven to the creche, to school and probably drove their first car to college! As far as they're concerned, the roads are for motorised vehicle only and drive accordingly. they dont understand what its like to to have a car whizz past you at 100kph with only mm's to spare.

This is part of the problem at the moment. Little dears are being ferried a few hundred meters from when they can barely walk, to GAA /soccer / flute practice or whatever then being ferried to primary / secondary school before graduating to a car at 17 or 18 or whatever then carrying on like the road is a private club. I've had a few encounters with people of lets say the Millennial generation who've reminded me I shouldn't be on the roads. Despite regularly cycling since about 2 decades before they were even born....

archer22

What I see is the good drivers have got better and take great care overtaking cyclists ...but there is a minority of arrogant, ignorant self righteous drivers out there who are a danger to all road users, including other motorists.
These are the ones you hear all the time complaining about cyclists and if not cyclists then Micra drivers or something else that annoys them.
They need to be taken off the roads for the sake of every road user.

Tombo2001

Pinch Flat wrote: »

The numbers of cyclists killed has made me think. Do I stop now? Just give it up? Or do I become one of the numbers that's making cycling normal and a regular activity like other mainland European countries?

...

On this point....

The risks have to be weighed up against the less immediate health risk of not cycling.

for me, the cycle commute is 20 mins each way guaranteed exercise every day of the week, that if anything saves me time in the day. Its the least disruptive form of exercise available.

Pinch Flat

Tombo2001 wrote: »

On this point....

The risks have to be weighed up against the less immediate health risk of not cycling.

for me, the cycle commute is 20 mins each way guaranteed exercise every day of the week, that if anything saves me time in the day. Its the least disruptive form of exercise available.

Yeah I hear you. I was an over weight and unfit 30 something before I cycled. I wouldn't have the discipline (or the interest) to go to a gym / run around the block etc in order to build the daily exercise into my life. So yeah commuting keeps me in reasonable condition.

smacl

What I've noticed in recent years is the marked increase in the total volume of traffic on the roads in recent years. More cyclists and more cars competing for space on the roads. There are also more satellite suburbs, so more people taking longer and often frustrating car journeys after a days work. It certainly feels more hazardous, but I could be biased having had my first bad accident this year, and being very aware of two cyclists killed who lived within a couple of hundred yards of my house.

Hopefully we'll see self drive cars take over in the next few years and much more remote working.

nilhg

As a non commuting, non urban cyclist who has the luxury of being able to mostly avoid high traffic areas I'd have to say that it doesn't feel that things have got much worse than they were before, you get some poor driving most of the time, usually not what I'd call malicious just lack of attention and thinking things through, there's the odd bastard that has no regard for anyone else on the road but can't say they are any more plentiful than before.

Eamonnator

Lumen wrote: »

I seem to fall off about once a year, in what might be termed "single vehicle accidents".

I haven't noticed this changing much over time.

Some might consider this ineptitude but I consider it robust empiricism. How do you know where the limits are unless you cross them? Repeatedly.

http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/#64

Rule #64 seems to cover this.

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Phones/distraction are a huge issue, massively so if your're on a bike but in the car too.

The amount of noddies I see is unreal :mad:
I'd feel 100% safer on the road if I knew with certainly the person coming behind me had their hands at 10-2 on the wheel and was in a position to check mirrors etc. regularly.

I'm driving lately into work in town.
I dread going home in the dark.
I go over Tara at and butt bridge to Gardiner st.

The amount of cyclists who go the same root wearing dark clothes and little or no lighting scares the hell out of me.
I'm petrified when I indicate to get in lane that I'll hit a ninja cyclist. It's not a well lit area.
Roll on the bright evenings again.
I'll be back on the bike shortly and won't be taking that route home.
I will however be well lit and have a florescent yellow cycle jacket on me.

07Lapierre

Reina Thousands Moisture wrote: »

I'm driving lately into work in town.
I dread going home in the dark.
I go over Tara at and butt bridge to Gardiner st.

The amount of cyclists who go the same root wearing dark clothes and little or no lighting scares the hell out of me.
I'm petrified when I indicate to get in lane that I'll hit a ninja cyclist. It's not a well lit area.
Roll on the bright evenings again.
I'll be back on the bike shortly and won't be taking that route home.
I will however be well lit and have a florescent yellow cycle jacket on me.

Don't think anyone on this forum will try and defend any cyclist who cycles around Dublin at this time of year, in the dark, without lights! For me I can never understand why anyone would do that. Not only is it a legal requiremen, but to me it's totally illogical behaviour! But it does beg the question...why do so many cyclists not use lights when it's dark? Is it because these people simply don't see it as being dangerous? Maybe it's because there is no enforcement by the Gardai? I don't have the answer, but like you, I use lights when it's dark.

Pinch Flat

Reina Thousands Moisture wrote: »

I'm driving lately into work in town.
I dread going home in the dark.
I go over Tara at and butt bridge to Gardiner st.

The amount of cyclists who go the same root wearing dark clothes and little or no lighting scares the hell out of me.
I'm petrified when I indicate to get in lane that I'll hit a ninja cyclist. It's not a well lit area.
Roll on the bright evenings again.
I'll be back on the bike shortly and won't be taking that route home.
I will however be well lit and have a florescent yellow cycle jacket on me.

I cycle near that way. 300 lumen front strobe and 180 lumen back strobe. Hi vis bag cover. Reflective strips on cycling jersey. Still didn’t stop someone overtaking me - a van outside the irish times building - then squeeze me against the kerb, had to bang furiously to alert him. Didn’t stop the taxi man further up pulling out of a side street leading from temple bar into the new shared bus / cycle lane at the ha penny bridge. Nearly got clipped by a taxi close passing further up.

I won’t for one moment condone ninjas - but It’s really, really frustrating when you take all measures and people just blatantly disregard your own safety.

conor_mc

07Lapierre wrote: »

Don't think anyone on this forum will try and defend any cyclist who cycles around Dublin at this time of year, in the dark, without lights! For me I can never understand why anyone would do that. Not only is it a legal requiremen, but to me it's totally illogical behaviour! But it does beg the question...why do so many cyclists not use lights when it's dark? Is it because these people simply don't see it as being dangerous? Maybe it's because there is no enforcement by the Gardai? I don't have the answer, but like you, I use lights when it's dark.

I’ve seen cyclists wearing face-masks but no helmet.... go figure!!??!!

I use lights, full blinking mode, every time I’m out on the bike on my own, regardless of conditions or time of day. The stats were done for daytime running lights in cars and proved a big reduction in accidents, same applies (even more so?) for bikes I’d assume.

On a personal experience, a cyclist was killed southbound near Blake’s Cross last winter. I passed it in the car on my way back from the airport heading northbound. At the risk of speculating on the cause, I was nearly blinded by the low sun driving past the exact spot of the accident I guess 10 mins before it happened, a total blind spot in the shade from the trees. A flashing rear light would have given a cyclist a chance of being spotted in that scenario, and I’d suspect in many others too.

Tony EH

I've never been off a bike of some description for over 20 years. Too me, it's definitely more dangerous cycling around Dublin, etc, today than it's ever been before.

You really have to treat everyone on the road as if they're an absolute numpty, because if you give anyone the benefit of the doubt and hope they're not, that's the numpty that plows into you and the numpty number is rising.

It's amazing seeing some of the, flat out, stupid things that people do. It's actually a wonder we don't have more death on our roads.

rushfan

This is something I've taken to doing for the last while. Even on the sunniest of days, there's a couple of areas on my various routes where there might be a short section of road that's in relative shade and sometimes a driver approaching from behind might not see me. The eternally flashing front and rear lights at least offer some chance of being seen.

conor_mc

rushfan wrote: »

This is something I've taken to doing for the last while. Even on the sunniest of days, there's a couple of areas on my various routes where there might be a short section of road that's in relative shade and sometimes a driver approaching from behind might not see me. The eternally flashing front and rear lights at least offer some chance of being seen.

Honestly, I think this is the biggest single thing cyclists can do to make their bike ride safer, assuming they’re already wearing a helmet, etc.

07Lapierre

conor_mc wrote: »

I’ve seen cyclists wearing face-masks but no helmet.... go figure!!??!!

I use lights, full blinking mode, every time I’m out on the bike on my own, regardless of conditions or time of day. The stats were done for daytime running lights in cars and proved a big reduction in accidents, same applies (even more so?) for bikes I’d assume.

On a personal experience, a cyclist was killed southbound near Blake’s Cross last winter. I passed it in the car on my way back from the airport heading northbound. At the risk of speculating on the cause, I was nearly blinded by the low sun driving past the exact spot of the accident I guess 10 mins before it happened, a total blind spot in the shade from the trees. A flashing rear light would have given a cyclist a chance of being spotted in that scenario, and I’d suspect in many others too.

Agree...flashing rear light is a good idea...even in daylight.
Lots of reasons to wear face masks... here's just one: https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fbbc.in%2F2AuC4wI&h=ATM06SAXbtLZ_0Q_mIFzdt-ObxM3aLspnS0VJaQxLFEOk7VG-XsYZFsrGJPdUSX8FShGZYeqIJSojuDMIFNV581wTI55FiUPuRyjKkLIEfXO-fXa-8PEGkiKZKvkmZJ1Qch4gMyRcjh31z19nAdUiAehnj9gHROSfP16b8xc1Xo0gyFW4QvZ686SJb1Bg9swCmJgnBjSrO7LW8--9ToNlu-3ymAZHtsjxWece1rkIirbNk4B9mk9KAF5D3kgyvFl2pfn9b-IVAMBcBqn9in-iZ1FXo0

Kaisr Sose

I am cycling on public roads a long time. I also lived abroad and have experience of other countries. I find it’s gradually getting less safe here, in cities and on rural roads. Even if that’s just perceived opinion, my perception is based on what I see and experience on the roads–whether cycling or driving, so something has changed to alter my perception.

From what I see, motorists are becoming more impatient, more risk adverse, more stressed and more aggressive. Some cyclists also!

There is very little visible Garda presence on the roads and when I do see them, they seem to be less interested in traffic/vehicles than I would be. The RSA adverts won’t make a difference. Until the policing /enforcement changes, things will remain as they are.

Stay safe!

ED E

A moderately drunk driver ~= a texter.


The problem with that is you'd be unlucky to meet one drunk a week. You meet 40+ texters a day in Dublin. The odds get pretty crappy in that volume.

07Lapierre

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I am cycling on public roads a long time. I also lived abroad and have experience of other countries. I find it’s gradually getting less safe here, in cities and on rural roads. Even if that’s just perceived opinion, my perception is based on what I see and experience on the roads–whether cycling or driving, so something has changed to alter my perception.

From what I see, motorists are becoming more impatient, more risk adverse, more stressed and more aggressive. Some cyclists also!

There is very little visible Garda presence on the roads and when I do see them, they seem to be less interested in traffic/vehicles than I would be. The RSA adverts won’t make a difference. Until the policing /enforcement changes, things will remain as they are.

Stay safe!

"Risk adverse"...yes the motor industry is spending billions developing safer cars. The safer the car, the safer the driver feels. the safer the driver feels, the more risks they will take..at least that's what I think.

Kaisr Sose

07Lapierre wrote: »

"Risk adverse"...yes the motor industry is spending billions developing safer cars. The safer the car, the safer the driver feels. the safer the driver feels, the more risks they will take..at least that's what I think.

Agreed and so true! People that feel safe can get over confident very quickly!

Wishbone Ash

07Lapierre wrote: »

Don't think anyone on this forum will try and defend any cyclist who cycles around Dublin at this time of year, in the dark, without lights! For me I can never understand why anyone would do that. Not only is it a legal requiremen, but to me it's totally illogical behaviour! But it does beg the question...why do so many cyclists not use lights when it's dark? Is it because these people simply don't see it as being dangerous? Maybe it's because there is no enforcement by the Gardai? I don't have the answer, but like you, I use lights when it's dark.

I'd say many of them don't drive so don't appreciate how difficult they can be to see especially when approaching a vehicle from behind which intends to turn left. I don't think of them as cyclists but more like 'pedestrians with a bicycle' as most seem to be using the bicycle to get somewhere more quickly rather than being interested in cycling.

conor_mc wrote: »

...a cyclist was killed southbound near Blake’s Cross last winter. I passed it in the car on my way back from the airport heading northbound. At the risk of speculating on the cause, I was nearly blinded by the low sun driving past the exact spot of the accident I guess 10 mins before it happened, a total blind spot in the shade from the trees. A flashing rear light would have given a cyclist a chance of being spotted in that scenario, and I’d suspect in many others too.

I pass that spot many times each week but thankfully it's usually early morning or in the evening. However, any time I'm there around mid-morning on a day with a wet surface and a low sun, I feel very vulnerable knowing that most motorists will be blinded. They should really re-instate the hard shoulder there as it gave some protection.

rubadub

conor_mc wrote: »

I’ve seen cyclists wearing face-masks but no helmet.... go figure!!??!!.

conor_mc wrote: »

Honestly, I think this is the biggest single thing cyclists can do to make their bike ride safer, assuming they’re already wearing a helmet, etc.

Do you realise many cyclists specifically do NOT wear a helmet for safety reasons? i.e. they have decided they are safer without a helmet, nothing to do with cost, convenience or this idea of being afraid of "not looking cool", Have you actually read up the pros & cons?

this is a good place to start. http://cyclehelmets.org/

I would not wear a helmet commuting, I feel safer without it, I would if took part in mountainbiking or proper cycling races.

I remember in work surprised to see machinists not wearing gloves "for safety" when working on lathes, I was ignorant but did not go about calling them "mad" (not that you did), I asked why and learned.

Risk vs. Reward:

Wearing gloves spares you from the very high chance of very minimal damage.
Not wearing gloves spares you from the very low chance of potentially fatal damage.

Sure, those little shards of metal may poke and prod, burn and cut...but if you get that glove caught it will take your hand off, or worse.

Keep the gloves off. Keep the eye protection on.
Show less
REPLY

horrendous video here showing why wearing "protective" gloves is not always advisable.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=026_1481838154

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/osha-regs-gloves-while-machining-168191/

Our plant had a statement in the safety handbook that you do not wear gloves while operating rotating equipment. Something I was taught back in trade school 26 years ago. We have a new "Safety Manager" that changed the handbook without telling anyone and wants us to wear leather gloves while running a lathe or mill or drill.
We are trying to find something in the OSHA codes to back us up on this.
Any Suggestions?
Thanks
i_r_machinist

07Lapierre

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Agreed and so true! People that feel safe can get over confident very quickly!

I read somewhere a guy said that all cars should not have an airbag in the steering wheel. Instead, the manufacturer should have a very sharp steel spike sticking out of the steering wheel, pointing directly at the drivers chest! Imagine how careful that driver would drive knowing the slights impact would injure him/her?

07Lapierre

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'd say many of them don't drive so don't appreciate how difficult they can be to see especially when approaching a vehicle from behind which intends to turn left. I don't think of them as cyclists but more like 'pedestrians with a bicycle' as most seem to be using the bicycle to get somewhere more quickly rather than being interested in cycling.
.

Yeah me too..explains why you see a lot of these people behaving like pedestrians. E.g. Cycling on the pavement, crossing the road at pedestrian crossings or crossing a road clogged with cars by weaving between cars, cycling down one way streets etc.

It also explains why they don't see using lights as a priority, because they don't see themselves as road users? After all, pedestrians don't need lights right?

Lumen

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I cycle near that way. 300 lumen front strobe and 180 lumen back strobe. Hi vis bag cover. Reflective strips on cycling jersey. Still didn’t stop someone overtaking me - a van outside the irish times building - then squeeze me against the kerb, had to bang furiously to alert him. Didn’t stop the taxi man further up pulling out of a side street leading from temple bar into the new shared bus / cycle lane at the ha penny bridge. Nearly got clipped by a taxi close passing further up.

I won’t for one moment condone ninjas - but It’s really, really frustrating when you take all measures and people just blatantly disregard your own safety.

Maybe if you didn't use a front strobe the drivers would have enough functioning vision to operate their vehicles safely.