Saorview frequencies reshuffle (700 MHz clearence)

Elvis Hammond

Deleted User wrote: »

kazoo106 wrote: »

Actually, 30 appears to be on, but getting no lock due to Three Rock underneath. This is going to be an issue even in parts of NI

You would wonder why then that the mux on Divis on 29 moved to 30 knowing there might be an issue here.

I doubt reception problems with COM muxes in marginal areas ever gave the broadcasters sleepless nights ...

SRB

Clermont is up again, on all four frequencies.

PFMC84 wrote: »

Checking 42 and 45 but getting no signal from Clermont. Not getting a signal for 51 or 60 from Divis either.

Rick_

Recently or since this morning/last night?

SRB

Came back up this afternoon...

PFMC84 wrote: »

Recently or since this morning/last night?

joeysoap

Clermount is my nearest.

This is odd. Everything in this house comes from the one splitter box

Samsung tv- 88 channels, UK HD channels in the 90’s ones. No full stops.
2nd Samsung - 58 channels, no UTV, no HD, full stops on VM 1 and VM 3
New lg-switched to Saorview, 99 channels, UK HD channels in 102-105. All full stops there.
Panasonic recorder- freeview, 153 channels, usual spots ie bbc 1 hd- 101, no full stops, Irish channels in the 800’s. as normal.

castle2012

Brian_Lo wrote: »

According to https://www.rxtvlog.com/2019/09/northern-ireland-undergoes-biggest-tv.html -- may be afternoon before anyone in Drogheda (or anywhere else) getting Freeview Lite from Kilkeel will be able to get channles after a retune

-- its says "there will be a period of time during the early hours of Wednesday when Freeview channels will be off-air. From breakfast time onwards, viewers will be invited to retune to restore any missing channels. But viewers who can only receive a small number of channels via Freeview because they receive their TV signal from a relay, may need to wait until the afternoon to retune."

---- bet ya some conspiracy theorists thought sudden switching off of Freeview was an escalation to the Boris Coup

All my uk channels from killkeel are gone .I have tried to retune but no joy .must be later tonight before they will be back

Elvis Hammond

castle2012 wrote: »

All my uk channels from killkeel are gone .I have tried to retune but no joy .must be later tonight before they will be back

Kilkeel is now co-channel with Camlough on all muxes, so you'll probably have to say goodbye to Freeview reception.

castle2012

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

castle2012 wrote: »

All my uk channels from killkeel are gone .I have tried to retune but no joy .must be later tonight before they will be back

Kilkeel is now co-channel with Camlough on all muxes, so you'll probably have to say goodbye to Freeview reception.

I wonder have they switched back on yet ?hopefully it will work

castle2012

I have did the manual scan and there is no signal , surly even if camlough was interfereing I still would have a signal . Note still picking up rte fine

Graceland

I'm in an area that is affected by the change yet I still have all my freeview channels. I know it probably sounds like a stupid question, but could my TV have done an automatic rescan without me knowing.

Elvis Hammond

castle2012 wrote: »

I have did the manual scan and there is no signal , surly even if camlough was interfereing I still would have a signal .

Which frequency did you check?

Graceland wrote: »

I'm in an area that is affected by the change yet I still have all my freeview channels. I know it probably sounds like a stupid question, but could my TV have done an automatic rescan without me knowing.

Which Freeview transmitter do you use?

Graceland

I think it's the divis transmitter

TAFKAlawhec

Deleted User wrote: »

You would wonder why then that the mux on Divis on 29 moved to 30 knowing there might be an issue here.

The old grouping of UHF channels into bunches of specific frequencies has now somewhat changed with this frequency clearence plan.

The traditional plan in both Ireland and UK goes back to the ST61 plan for the UHF broadcast bands where four frequencies were grouped together, intending to provide four separate services that could be received on one small grouped UHF Aerial. It went much like this...

* 21 - 24 - 27 - 31
* 22 - 25 - 28 - 32
* 23 - 26 - 29 - 33
* 39 - 42 - 45 - 49
* 40 - 43 - 46 - 50
* 41 - 44 - 47 - 51
* 53 - 57 - 60 - 63
* 54 - 58 - 61 - 64
* 55 - 59 - 62 - 65

Those nine frequency groupings helped to less complicate frequency planning matters especially concerning "taboo" channels that are +/- 1, 5 and 9 channels away concerning analogue planning. There were a few exceptions to these rules, but overall it made things less awkward. It also left several "spare" frequencies available which could be used in some locations where none of the nine groupings above could be used, namely 30, 34, 48, 52, 56, 66, 67 & 68. 37 & 35 were added to both countries during the 1990s, with 36 now becoming available as there is no long any radar used on that frequency. 38 is still reserved however for astronomy use and not allocated to broadcasting in IRL & UK, though some contentinal European countries do use it for mainly low powered use.

With the 700MHz frequency reshuffling there are now nine three-channel groups for the 27 frequency blocks remaining in the UHF broadcast band (38 being excluded) with no "spares" left remaining.

* 21 - 24 - 27
* 22 - 25 - 28
* 23 - 26 - 30
* 29 - 31 - 37
* 32 - 34 - 35
* 33 - 36 - 48
* 39 - 42 - 45
* 40 - 43 - 46
* 41 - 44 - 47

Again, there is the occasional exception but most transmitters in Ireland, North & South, are to adhere to these groupings. As Saorview is presently only transmitting two multiplexes, there is room for a third multiplex with the same frequency clearence radiation patterns should the need arise.

The new groupings take into account that DVB-T(2) transmissions can tolerate lower required signal strengths and lower signal to noise ratios (depending on multiplex configuration) that 625 line PAL could. Also, there are no "taboo" channels to worry about in the way they existed for analogue, so channels 34 & 35 can be used side by side from the same TX.

The downside however is that because frequency blocks can now be reused at closer geographic locations due to this better tolerance, it means that receiving a multiplex outside of the service area is more complex than what it once was, if not difficult or impossible. Fringe reception is much more vulnerable to co-channel interference.

In the case of Three Rock, as mentioned in the OP it has two frequency groupings cleared as part of this reshuffle, 23 - 26 - 30 and 33 - 36 - 48. It would seem obvious that broadcasting channel E30 from Three Rock at 63kW would likely cause issues of receiving the COM6 multiplex in parts of Divis' service area. The seemingly best solution would be for 2RN to retune their 1st multiplex from E30 to E36, with the second multiplex remaining on E33, with any potential third multiplex making a future appearance on E48.

Elvis Hammond

Graceland wrote: »

I think it's the divis transmitter

Divis changes are limited. Check if you still have Yesterday & 4Music. Also the likes of BBC4 HD, Channel4 +1 HD would be gone.

SRB

The muxes Com 7 and 8 moved up to 51 and 60 the MiniMux is on 48 and Loc1 is now on 36.

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

Divis only changed one mux. Check if you still have Yesterday & 4Music.

castle2012

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

castle2012 wrote: »

I have did the manual scan and there is no signal , surly even if camlough was interfereing I still would have a signal .

Which frequency did you check?

Graceland wrote: »

I'm in an area that is affected by the change yet I still have all my freeview channels. I know it probably sounds like a stupid question, but could my TV have done an automatic rescan without me knowing.

Which Freeview transmitter do you use?

40,43,46

Elvis Hammond

SRB wrote: »

The muxes Com 7 and 8 moved up to 51 and 60 the MiniMux is on 48 and Loc1 is now on 36.

Yeah, I forgot about COM 7 & 8. I edited my previous post. The local mux & that low powered NImux won't affect anyone too far away from Belfast.

TAFKAlawhec

Graceland wrote: »

I'm in an area that is affected by the change yet I still have all my freeview channels. I know it probably sounds like a stupid question, but could my TV have done an automatic rescan without me knowing.

Yes. Televisions, STBs, PVRs etc. that are set up to automatically search for new channels whilst in standby* will usually do a scan and where necessary add & remove services to the corresponding LCN. Several people I've spoken to have reported this happen to them this morning - though attention to the ability of picking up the new Saorview frequencies might still be required.

For example, I was retuning my parent's TV earlier and while it could still pick up Truskmore broadcasting on the "old" frequencies of E53 & E57, but nothing on the "new" frequencies of E42 & E45. The aerial aimed at Truskmore is a Group E aerial that on its own should have no particular problems picking up the new frequencies - almost certain that the culprit is the masthead diplexer being a K/CD model rather than A/E. Shouldn't be a problem to change one over to another though for myself, as it's a two story terraced building I'm not used to going up such heights so best to get someone else involved.

Come the end of next winter & spring, I can see aerial installers in much of NI getting a temporary boost in callouts with some households wondering where the heck the soccer on RTÉ2 and the Virgin Media channels have gone to!



* The ability for a receiver to be able to scan for new services is a mandatory requirement in the UKs "D-Book" for equipment carrying the official "Freeview HD" logo. This can usually be turned off if so desired.

TAFKAlawhec

SRB wrote: »

The muxes Com 7 and 8 moved up to 51 and 60 the MiniMux is on 48 and Loc1 is now on 36.

The MiniMux / NI Mux / RNI_1 multiplex on Divis is a new, very low powered 10 Watt allocation presumably as a fill in somewhere in the city where either other same mux or cross border reception was expected to be affected.

For most whom have an aerial aimed at Divis, the mux for most people will come from Black Mountain instead, which has now moved to E33 with an increase in the maximum directional ERP going from 2kW to 3kW, and should have a coverage level similar to that of the of the COM4-6 multiplexes.

Elvis Hammond

castle2012 wrote: »

40,43,46

Not sure how receivers handle signals like that; whether some might ignore it altogether or if they should at least display strength along with poor quality.

Graceland

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

Divis changes are limited. Check if you still have Yesterday & 4Music. Also the likes of BBC4 HD, Channel4 +1 HD would be gone.

I don't seem to have these channels.

Graceland

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Yes. Televisions, STBs, PVRs etc. that are set up to automatically search for new channels whilst in standby* will usually do a scan and where necessary add & remove services to the corresponding LCN. Several people I've spoken to have reported this happen to them this morning - though attention to the ability of picking up the new Saorview frequencies might still be required

Thanks for that. I was hoping that was the case.

kazoo106

Divis on channel 30 is over in North Louth and huge chunks of Armagh too for that matter. We tried everything today from phased arrays of log periodic antennas to using huge office blocks as a shield and no joy. It seems that even having three rock coming in even 28db under Divis is enough to just kill it. Ofdm resilience my ass.

muffler

I tuned in all my Freeview channels again this morning only to discover that I had lost the Saorview channels when I switched on the telly at lunch time. I had lost them yesterday for a while and when they came back the RTE channels had changed to RTOne. and RT2. but I see that they are back with their "E"s again including the fadas so it wasnt a TV issue

Fingleberries

Brian_Lo wrote: »

According to https://www.rxtvlog.com/2019/09/northern-ireland-undergoes-biggest-tv.html -- may be afternoon before anyone in Drogheda (or anywhere else) getting Freeview Lite from Kilkeel will be able to get channles after a retune

-- its says "there will be a period of time during the early hours of Wednesday when Freeview channels will be off-air. From breakfast time onwards, viewers will be invited to retune to restore any missing channels. But viewers who can only receive a small number of channels via Freeview because they receive their TV signal from a relay, may need to wait until the afternoon to retune."

---- bet ya some conspiracy theorists thought sudden switching off of Freeview was an escalation to the Boris Coup

Anyone in Drogheda / North Fingal Region getting Kilkeel to come in?

According to this, Kilkeel should have Freeview Lite on CH40, 43, 46.(https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Kilkeel)

Clermont Cairn has Saorview on 42 and 45.

Saorview coming in fine, But, I'm still not getting Kilkeel.

Brian_Lo

No freeview in Drogheda.

TAFKAlawhec

kazoo106 wrote: »

Divis on channel 30 is over in North Louth and huge chunks of Armagh too for that matter. We tried everything today from phased arrays of log periodic antennas to using huge office blocks as a shield and no joy. It seems that even having three rock coming in even 28db under Divis is enough to just kill it. Ofdm resilience my ass.

Reception of COM6 from Divis, due to its configuration, requires a minimum carrier to noise ratio of 23db. Given signal path variations over time as well as varying tuner thresholds among other things, even 28db might not be enough to be reliable over time for a decent tuner.

Three Rock is not the only potential source of co-channel, Brougher Mountain still has the NI Mux on E30 as well albeit with just 1kW of power. Unlikely to be a big issue in South Armagh/North Louth, but might be an issue in areas like Mid-Tyrone, North Monaghan, South Fermanagh (in around Roslea) and the Clogher Valley.

In Britain, some areas were identified as being expected to lose COM4-6 reception as a result of frequency clearence, with a few new COM4-6 transmitters added to replace lost coverage either at present PSB only relays, or even new DTT TX sites. Reception of COM6 across the border is a case of "best effort" but a significant loss of population coverage in NI would be a different matter, and worth getting on to the respective authorities. The problems concerning co-channel from Three Rock could be solved from what I said earlier, co-channel from Brougher might be a little trickier to fix, but likely affects fewer viewers.

castle2012

Fingleberries wrote: »

Brian_Lo wrote: »

According to https://www.rxtvlog.com/2019/09/northern-ireland-undergoes-biggest-tv.html -- may be afternoon before anyone in Drogheda (or anywhere else) getting Freeview Lite from Kilkeel will be able to get channles after a retune

-- its says "there will be a period of time during the early hours of Wednesday when Freeview channels will be off-air. From breakfast time onwards, viewers will be invited to retune to restore any missing channels. But viewers who can only receive a small number of channels via Freeview because they receive their TV signal from a relay, may need to wait until the afternoon to retune."

---- bet ya some conspiracy theorists thought sudden switching off of Freeview was an escalation to the Boris Coup

Anyone in Drogheda / North Fingal Region getting Kilkeel to come in?

According to this, Kilkeel should have Freeview Lite on CH40, 43, 46.(https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Kilkeel)

Clermont Cairn has Saorview on 42 and 45.

Saorview coming in fine, But, I'm still not getting Kilkeel.

Thankfully I'm not the only one . hopefully it's just not up and running yet .have to say lost without it

Elvis Hammond

Graceland wrote: »

I don't seem to have these channels.

You'll have to rescan if you want them back. A manual scan of channel 30 will hopefully get back the COM6 mux. COM 7 & 8 have moved up to chs. 51 & 60 respectively & might not be available to you now, depending what kind of aerial setup you have.

The Cush

for anyone in NI, use the coverage prediction checker by inputting your postcode and ticking the Detailed view box - http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker/

It'll give a indication of what may be available in any particular area.

ILikeBoats

Has this reshuffle caused me to lose the Northern Irish channels on saorview?
Any way to get them back without a box?

I'm in Skerries.

Pretty annoying

joeysoap

Thanks Cush

according to that I’m not missing BBC4 or Channel+1HD.

Can’t remember ever having them.

I do appear to have bb4 after all. Not where I expected though on LG 9, on Panasonic 134.

castle2012

ILikeBoats wrote: »

Has this reshuffle caused me to lose the Northern Irish channels on saorview?
Any way to get them back without a box?

I'm in Skerries.

Pretty annoying

Not sure what's going on .it's like they never switched off the transmitter and never turned back on

lgs 4

I don't see oneone reporting any DTT problems from Wales

The Cush

joeysoap wrote: »

according to that I’m not missing BBC4 or Channel+1HD.

Can’t remember ever having them.

The prediction will be based on certain parameters such as aerial, aerial height, location etc and may not take into account local obstacles/conditions. The Saorview predicted coverage I believe is based on an outdoor in-group aerial mounted 10m agl (above ground level). So the prediction of what's available can vary depending on your installation.

Elvis Hammond

BBC Receptionsearch reports Kilkeel HD channels as having been off air due to a fault from 1.14PM until 6.49PM, with previous 'essential engineering' having been completed at 1.14PM.

castle2012

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

BBC Receptionsearch reports Kilkeel HD channels as having been off air due to a fault from 1.14PM until 6.49PM, with previous 'essential engineering' having been completed at 1.14PM.

Interesting must be a major problem with it still not back

pluto_322

I was receiving a perfect Freeview signal (on Ch 28 & 22) from Brougher and Saorview from Holywell hill. On updating Freeview today to 29 & 31, I'm now getting an unwatchable signal on 29 (strength 100%; quality 1% - 9%) and nothing on ch 31 or 37. Living in Donegal - north of Holywell and Derry transmitters and wondering if interference is being caused by Derry (using the same frequencies: 29; 31 & 37 horizontal) or Holywell, still using 30 & 33 - in addition to new slots on 22 & 25. Any ideas from technical folk would be welcome.

The Cush

castle2012 wrote: »

Interesting must be a major problem with it still not back

No reported faults now according to the BBC Reception search, use a local postcode e.g. BT34 4HW

Elvis Hammond

pluto_322 wrote: »

I was receiving a perfect Freeview signal (on Ch 28 & 22) from Brougher and Saorview from Holywell hill. On updating Freeview today to 29 & 31, I'm now getting an unwatchable signal on 29 (strength 100%; quality 1% - 9%) and nothing on ch 31 or 37. Living in Donegal - north of Holywell and Derry transmitters and wondering if interference is being caused by Derry (using the same frequencies: 29; 31 & 37 horizontal) ...

Wonder no more; of course that's the cause. You'll have to go with Limavady, I suppose.

kazoo106

The fact that Kilkeel and Camlough are now on the same frequency (and not even on an SFN) will kill this service down the east coast - both sites produce similar signals south and the Grid antennas sold by TV installers down there in the 80's / 90's will just not have the separation as they have a wide acceptance angle.
Add into the mix, RTE on adjacent channels and it also could be all over for you !

Elvis Hammond

kazoo106 wrote: »

Divis on channel 30 is over in North Louth and huge chunks of Armagh too for that matter. We tried everything today from phased arrays of log periodic antennas to using huge office blocks as a shield and no joy. It seems that even having three rock coming in even 28db under Divis is enough to just kill it. Ofdm resilience my ass.

How did you measure this?

Rick_

I have an engineer coming out on Saturday to have a look at my set-up, hopefully we can get the 8 Divis MUX's and the new Clermont MUX's all working again.

SRB

Reception of all Clermont MUX's here in Portaferry was unwatchable by late evening. I'd expect issues with the newer two as they are now out of band of both my aerial and amp, but while they were fine when they first appeared the signal was constantly dropping, relocking and dropping by late evening. The two on 52 and 56 are also doing the same, after being rock solid since switch over. I'm guessing they are being hit by co channel interference, will look into it a bit further at the weekend.

PFMC84 wrote: »

I have an engineer coming out on Saturday to have a look at my set-up, hopefully we can get the 8 Divis MUX's and the new Clermont MUX's all working again.

castle2012

By the looks of it .any one who was enjoying killkeel , the whole east coast has been knocked out

Elvis Hammond

PFMC84 wrote: »

I have an engineer coming out on Saturday to have a look at my set-up, hopefully we can get the 8 Divis MUX's and the new Clermont MUX's all working again.

Re. the Clermont muxes: would your setup have been done to allow reception of the pre-switchover Divis mux on ch.48? If that's the case, the new channels from CC won't be getting through, so you'll need the diplexer changed.

The existing diplexer might do for including a chs. 51 & 60 feed, though 51 would be near its split point. It would certainly work for 55 & 56, after March.

Rick_

Yes, I believe it was. On doing a signal test nothing comes through on 42 and 45 currently. Nothing either on 51 or 60 but as you say I think the diplexer we have is allowing 21-48 from Divis and 49-68 from Clermont as this would have allowed all analogue and digital signals from both transmitters to come through pre-switchover and everything after switchover up until yesterday.

Hopefully its just a case of a different diplexer(s) needed and we don't have to go changing aerials, but if the aerial we have for Clermont is CD then it won't get 42 and 45 (and the potential future MUX's in the 30's) so will have to get at least one new aerial I suppose...?

Elvis Hammond

PFMC84 wrote: »

... if the aerial we have for Clermont is CD then it won't get 42 and 45 (and the potential future MUX's in the 30's) so will have to get at least one new aerial I suppose...?

The group C/D aerial should be fine for chs. in the 40s.

Rick_

I'm not 100% certain it is CD but considering only 52, 56, 66, and 68 were needed (at the time) I doubt the aerial installer would have put anything else up there instead. So, even though it is designed for 48 upwards, it will still pickup 42 and 45?

Unless it's a group E aerial, I can't see the tips to help identify it and it probably is covered in soot from whenever we had a coal fire!

The Cush

PFMC84 wrote:

It's odd that, if RTÉ is being broadcast on a NI Mux and they are using DVB-T2 for it, that they don't just broadcast them in HD like they do on Saorview. If they can't transmit the VM channels then why not give RTÉ 1+1 and RTÉ 2+1 instead together with the news channel and kids channel. Just having the 3 TV channels and in SD seems a bit of a waste.

@PFMC84 - I assume this is you posting over on DS. Just to answer this here as that thread is a bit dead.

There isn't any wasted space on the NImux, it is basically full. It is using very robust parameters to ensure the best coverage of it channels from a limited number of transmitters.

The mux capacity as a result of using those parameters is 9.8 Mbps. The Saorview DVB-T muxes have a capacity of 24.1 Mbps while the Freeview DVB-T2 mux capacity is 40 Mbps.

The 3 TV channels on that mux broadcast at an SD resolution of 704x576 I believe, a higher resolution than TG4/VM channels on Saorview, 544X576.


NImux live bitrate measurement - http://www.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php?liste=1&live=19&lang=en&mux=NIMUX-BLACK-MOUNTAIN