Saorview frequencies reshuffle (700 MHz clearence)

kazoo106

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

How did you measure this?

Measured 3 rock dignal before the change of freq on a spectrum analyser

Hotblack Desiato

The Cush wrote: »

The 3 TV channels on that mux broadcast at an SD resolution of 704x576 I believe, a higher resolution than TG4/VM channels on Saorview, 544X576.

So NI Mux viewers of TG4 get better PQ than viewers on Saorview!

Unbelieveable.

Elvis Hammond

kazoo106 wrote: »

Measured 3 rock dignal before the change of freq on a spectrum analyser

Would you not need Divis in the absence of 3R as well though?

Iderown

The receiving setup is maybe a bit untypical.

Two aerials, each aerial feeding just one TV with its recording box. They are all standard definition.


The lower aerial is aimed at Divis, it is group A horizontal, and has a good response to NI Mux from Black Mountain. No problems getting the couple of channel changes done.


The upper aerial is aimed at Clermont Carn, it is group CD vertical and has a 15(?)db signal amplifier further down the mast. This feeds a separate recording box and TV. No problems with the new RTE channels on 42V and 45V. The Divis signals sneak in along with the Clermont Carn channels.



I had been a bit concerned that a local low-power relay at Conlig (42V and 45V) would interfere. It is in the line-of-sight between here and Clermont Car. But, no problems from it. Conlig's radiation pattern is directed away from Bangor.


So, happy here. No roof climbing or aerial replacement needed. We await mobile phone signals and their possible interference.

Elvis Hammond

Iderown wrote: »

I had been a bit concerned that a local low-power relay at Conlig (42V and 45V) would interfere. It is in the line-of-sight between here and Clermont Car. But, no problems from it. Conlig's radiation pattern is directed away from Bangor.

Conlig changed to 32, 34, & 35.

castle2012

So looks like the north east of the country has been really badly affected by the changes .I have lost all my uk stations .what a shame

kazoo106

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

Would you not need Divis in the absence of 3R as well though?

Yes - Divis signal is there now - 27db stronger than what 3 rock was - but no lock

Digifriendly

Iderown wrote: »

The receiving setup is maybe a bit untypical.

Two aerials, each aerial feeding just one TV with its recording box. They are all standard definition.


The lower aerial is aimed at Divis, it is group A horizontal, and has a good response to NI Mux from Black Mountain. No problems getting the couple of channel changes done.


The upper aerial is aimed at Clermont Carn, it is group CD vertical and has a 15(?)db signal amplifier further down the mast. This feeds a separate recording box and TV. No problems with the new RTE channels on 42V and 45V. The Divis signals sneak in along with the Clermont Carn channels.



I had been a bit concerned that a local low-power relay at Conlig (42V and 45V) would interfere. It is in the line-of-sight between here and Clermont Car. But, no problems from it. Conlig's radiation pattern is directed away from Bangor.


So, happy here. No roof climbing or aerial replacement needed. We await mobile phone signals and their possible interference.

Are you picking up all the Divis muxes including Com 7/8 in their new RFs?

Elvis Hammond

kazoo106 wrote: »

Yes - Divis signal is there now - 27db stronger than what 3 rock was - but no lock

But isn't there a good chance the 3R signal is adding to Divis, making it look stronger than it actually is? What was ch.29 like?

Digifriendly wrote: »

Are you picking up all the Divis muxes including Com 7/8 in their new RFs?

Near the start of the post you quoted: 'They are all standard definition'.

Are you not getting these muxes yourself? Do you have a CC aerial diplexed with your Divis one?

kazoo106

No - using just a dipole, 3rock is actually 10db stronger than Divis - and here in lies the difficulty with crap front to back ratios
29 was the same signal as now on 30.

DTT just hates an interfering signal as was demonstrated 6 weeks ago during a tropo lift when temporary Com Muxes in Britain on 52 and 56 even caused problems for Clermont carn in Dundalk.

Regarding the Kilkeel / Camlough issue - no reason why these sites can not be run as an SFN - Like what 3rock and Kippure were back in 2012 - this would solve the whole problem - however, seeing as the area of overlap is ONLY in Leinster, then there's about as much hope of this happening as RTE going HD on the NIMM - unless of course someone can pluck a quote out of the Good Friday Agreement, something the opposite of TG4 for BBC2 NI

TAFKAlawhec

kazoo106 wrote: »

Regarding the Kilkeel / Camlough issue - no reason why these sites can not be run as an SFN - Like what 3rock and Kippure were back in 2012 - this would solve the whole problem - however, seeing as the area of overlap is ONLY in Leinster, then there's about as much hope of this happening as RTE going HD on the NIMM - unless of course someone can pluck a quote out of the Good Friday Agreement, something the opposite of TG4 for BBC2 NI

Both Camlough & Kilkeel are, to the best of my knowledge, bona-fide relay stations, Camlough picking up directly from Divis while Kilkeel has an intermediate feeder via Killowen Mountain. Since there will be different time delays at each relay from receiving Divis, would even the use of GPS time locking (as used for DAB) even help? In any case, all three multiplexes are using the shortest available guard interval (1/32, 1/128 for DVB-T2) which doesn't lend itself to SFN given the very short echo delay that can be tolerated. Saorview multiplexes also use a GI of 1/32 over DVB-T, which probably why the Kippure/Three Rock SFN experiment failed to satisfactorily work. For it to work, the GI on DVB-T would need to be lengthened to 1/16 or even 1/8, though there is a small data penalty in doing this.

TAFKAlawhec

Just to kill a few more birds with one stone...

* Yes, the SD Video streams on the NI Mux are 720 x 576. As far as SD video quality goes, it's the best I've seen on terrestrial locally.

* An attempt to receive every mux from Divis (plus NI Mux from Black Mountain) along with the new Clermont Carin muxes would require a triplexed set up, either using three UHF aerials (For example, Group A at Divis/BM, Group B at CC & Group C/D at Divis) or the use of a Group T or W aerial aimed at Divis which is split two ways. Normally, two diplexer would be required, an A/E diplexer (A going up to E37 if the LTV Mux needs to be received) with A being fed from Divis A or Divis "split 1", and E from Clermont Carin, then that output would be fed into a second diplexer, this time a K/CD version with the first diplex output going to K and the Divis C/D or "split 2"going to the C/D leg. Wherever it is worth the cost/hassle is for the viewer to decide, the COM7/8 muxes in the UK have generally very little viewer share for all the channels on the two muxes combined (1% IIRC) and are presently licenced only up to 2022 with any extension very unlikely.

* The Camlough/Kilkeel co-channels issue is unlikely to be unique, with both Truskmore & Clermont Cairn using the same frequencies, albeit with opposite polarisation, it's very possible that in some locations this could cause reception issues. In the Republic, overlap of the two service areas will be pretty minimal, and there's likely to be an alternative TX available. However in NI it is a different story. I suspect the increase in the sites for the NI Mux is partly for this reason. Also the Letterkenny TX is using E39 & E42 which adds more issues in parts of counties Tyrone & Derry, which would explain Strabane becoming an added site.

* Group C/D aerials just don't stop receiving anything below E48 - it should be OK to pick up E42 & E45, just with a little less gain. Most Yagi aerials have a gain chart somewhat like a rollercoaster, climbing up towards a peak near the highest frequency it is designed to receive, then fairly rapidly falling down. If a viewer of Truskmore or Clermont Cairn is using a Group C/D aerial, then provided there is something not blocking frequencies below E48 or E50 (like. K/CD diplexer), then reception issues concerning the new multiplexes on E42 & E45 are likely only going to be a problem in either fringe reception locations, or where co-channels interference is an issue.

kazoo106

The other forgotten issue with trying to pick up E30 from Divis in North Louth is reflection from the mountains of the unwanted ThreeRock signal on the same frequency.
It is conceivable that even with the most perfect antenna, back reflection from the mountains of the ThreeRock Mux is enough to kill the Belfast signal.

kazoo106

kazoo106 wrote: »

The other forgotten issue with trying to pick up E30 from Divis in North Louth is reflection from the mountains of the unwanted ThreeRock signal on the same frequency.
It is conceivable that even with the most perfect antenna, back reflection from the mountains of the ThreeRock Mux is enough to kill the Belfast signal.

Ch 30 gone for me in Dundalk. Odd thing though is I'm getting zero on both strength & quality. Shouldn't I be getting a signal strength indication of some sort?

Elvis Hammond

kazoo106 wrote: »

The other forgotten issue with trying to pick up E30 from Divis in North Louth is reflection from the mountains of the unwanted ThreeRock signal on the same frequency.
It is conceivable that even with the most perfect antenna, back reflection from the mountains of the ThreeRock Mux is enough to kill the Belfast signal.

Reflection back from mountains is hardly going to be a problem, unless your aerial happens to be pointing at a nearby flat vertical or overhanging cliff.

kazoo106

Here is a screenshot of what the analyser currently seeing


and for reference the PSB Mux on 27

adox

I’m in Rush in North county Dublin and have an aerial on the roof since analogue days.

Have always picked up the freeview channels through the freeview HD tuner on the tv.

Have had a warning flash up the last few days about a retune needed and since the change over I’ve lost nearly all the freeview channels. No HD channels. I’m still getting the BBC channels in SD but that’s it. Not ITV, C4 or variants etc.

I presume that’s that? Bit of a shame really.

Hotblack Desiato

There's always Freesat.

Whats gone on with it? I'm not well versed in the technicalities of TV/Satellite.

Antenna

Deleted User wrote: »

Ch 30 gone for me in Dundalk. Odd thing though is I'm getting zero on both strength & quality. Shouldn't I be getting a signal strength indication of some sort?

depends on the receiver, if it cannot decode/lock anything at all due to co-channel interference I think the majority of receivers shows zero for strength.

I recall some obscure DTT receiver I tried would give a signal strength reading regardless of decoding anything including if an active analogue TV carrier frequency was manually entered (though quality reading was zero and obviously no reception)

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

Reflection back from mountains is hardly going to be a problem, unless your aerial happens to be pointing at a nearby flat vertical or overhanging cliff.

more likely is reflections from metal buildings to the front of the aerial, this could include large farm buildings, factories, etc, UHF reflections can easily be significant from large industry metal-clad buildings over a mile away

Bellbottoms

adox wrote: »

I presume that’s that? Bit of a shame really.

Is that it? Are they all gone now?

Antenna

kooga wrote: »

Good morning when you rescan should the new mux frequency replace the previous one automatically when you / I’m on spur hill with channel change to 39
Tk u

yes
Your receiver list the channels from both new and old MUXes? - the old, to be discontinued MUX's channels at the end of your channel list and now with full stops after the station names. On a walker I tried had RTE 1 on both ch 256 (old) as well as 1 (new) etc

stam

Hi I been reading there have been changes to Northern Ireland I have lost channels I was getting c 22 and 28 from Brougher moutain I'm useing Group A aerial but since the other day can't get anything does it mean they are gone for good thanks

Elvis Hammond

stam wrote: »

Hi I been reading there have been changes to Northern Ireland I have lost channels I was getting c 22 and 28 from Brougher moutain I'm useing Group A aerial but since the other day can't get anything does it mean they are gone for good thanks

I assume you've tried a retune? Anyhow, if you're down the country somewhere, you'll probably be getting interference form Kilduff on chs. 31 & 37. Ch.29 should still be ok.

Mrs cockett

How do I get Freesat? Please!

Elvis Hammond

Mrs cockett wrote: »

How do I get Freesat? Please!

Have you lost terrestrial reception in the last couple of days, or maybe you just want to ditch Sky?

Or none of the above?

Mrs cockett

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

Have you lost terrestrial reception in the last couple of days, or maybe you just want to ditch Sky?

Or none of the above?

Yes I have lost all my English channels And RTE is driving me crazy

Elvis Hammond

Mrs cockett wrote: »

Yes I have lost all my English channels And RTE is driving me crazy

What part of the country are you in?

Mrs cockett

Leitrim Longford Border

Elvis Hammond

Have you retuned your TV? You'll have to if you want to try & get the UK stuff back.

Mrs cockett

Yes, I've retuned, BBC is making an effort to get through,but no sign at all of utv or channels 4 and 5.

Why did they do this?

The Cush

Deleted User wrote: »

Whats gone on with it? I'm not well versed in the technicalities of TV/Satellite.

Mrs cockett wrote: »

I've retuned, BBC is making an effort to get through,but no sign at all of utv or channels 4 and 5.

Why did they do this?

This is the explanation from Saorview, similar applies to the UK - https://www.saorview.ie/changes/about

Basically, throughout Europe some of the TV broadcast spectrum is being sold off to the mobile operators for 5G. As a result the TV channels are being moved out and squeezed into the remaining smaller block of spectrum, meaning the coverage area is reduced to avoid conflicting with existing TV broadcasting in this smaller block of spectrum.

This from the Dept of Communications

Irish planners have completed replanning to clear TV from the channels 49-60. They worked in conjunction with their UK colleagues on this task. On the whole the plan has 9 UHF channel groups, each with 3 channels. The Department expects that TV services will clear the channels 49-60 by April 2020, creating a second digital dividend. Associated with that will be much tighter reuse of frequency channels. The Department does not guarantee reception of TV services outside their core service area. Some households currently receiving UK TV signals from Northern Ireland or Wales will no longer be able to do so. This is because of transmissions from Irish TV transmitters in neighbouring areas.

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/topics/spectrum/digital-dividend/Pages/DTT-Spectrum.aspx

The Cush

Mrs cockett wrote: »

How do I get Freesat? Please!

The first thing to do in my opinion would be to contact a local aerial installer to see if it's still possible to receive the NI Freeview channels via an adjusted/upgraded aerial installation.

If not then it'll be a satellite dish connected to a Freesat or free-to-air receiver at each TV point, there are also some combi Saorview/satellite TVs available. The satellite dish option is not as user friendly as your existing aerial receiving the channels direct from a NI transmitter.

Elvis Hammond

Mrs cockett wrote: »

Yes, I've retuned, BBC is making an effort to get through,but no sign at all of utv or channels 4 and 5.

BBC would be on channel 29; the others on channel 31, & all the HD versions on ch. 37.

Channel 29 should still be clear, while 31 & 37 could be subject to interference from RTE's Kilduff site. (It's in nth. Tipperary, but there's not much to block it.)

The Cush

Revised post-700MHz clearance Saorview Transmitter and Frequency information pdf, dated Sept 2019, rev. 1.2

http://www.2rn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2RN-DTT-Television-Transmission-Network-Sept-2019-Rev.1.2.pdf

Previous version here - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92032951#post92032951

stam

Hi yes tried a retune no joy tried ch 29 can't get anything on that either I'm in Kildare so do you think it's time for me to take down my group A aerial and retire it

Iderown

Digifriendly wrote: »

Are you picking up all the Divis muxes including Com 7/8 in their new RFs?

The post Digifriendly refers to is 205.


Com 7 (on E51) is OK but Com8 (on E60) is very unreliable. Local1 (on E36) and NI Mux (on E33) are fine. I guess that poor response (at the higher frequencies) of the group A aerial is the problem here. I don't have a RF signal strength measuring facility.



Happens that the main televiewer in the house is herself and she has no interest in the programmes carried by either Com7 or Com8. If she expresses interest in the future, I will take graded steps to solve it.

Mullaghteelin

Balbriggan, North County Dublin here.
I gather freeview from kilkeel has changed channels or is off air..
But there are MASSIVE signals on chs 42 and 45, formerly occupied by kilkeel. I'm guessing its RTE putting out some sort of blank carriers from clermont carn... Possibly wiping out the weaker freeview signals on adjacent channels.

It's hard to figure out what's going on.

Mortelaro

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

Balbriggan, North County Dublin here.
I gather freeview from kilkeel has changed channels or is off air..
But there are MASSIVE signals on chs 42 and 45, formerly occupied by kilkeel. I'm guessing its RTE putting out some sort of blank carriers from clermont carn... Possibly wiping out the weaker freeview signals on adjacent channels.

It's hard to figure out what's going on.

Well if Clermont carn is testing 42 and 45,theres absolutely no effect on preseli down here in Arklow
All channels on 42 and 45 are as normal down here,which is good news

Elvis Hammond

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

Balbriggan, North County Dublin here.
I gather freeview from kilkeel has changed channels or is off air..
But there are MASSIVE signals on chs 42 and 45, formerly occupied by kilkeel. I'm guessing its RTE putting out some sort of blank carriers from clermont carn... Possibly wiping out the weaker freeview signals on adjacent channels.

They're not blank carriers; Saorview is up & running on those freqs. Never thought of them being adjacent to Kilkeel now: indeed that could explain why adox a few posts back was still getting BBC on ch.40.

Kilkeel already has the co-channel Camlough to deal with.

I think an adjacent channel can be something like 25dB above before it starts doing harm?

stam wrote: »

Hi yes tried a retune no joy tried ch 29 can't get anything on that either I'm in Kildare so do you think it's time for me to take down my group A aerial and retire it

Kildare? That was impressive while it lasted, although I think I'd be going with satellite now for FTA UK TV.

Elvis Hammond

On the subject of SFNs, mentioned already as regards Kilkeel/Camlough & Truskmore/Clermont: in the case of the latter, there's a reference in a cost report from a couple of years ago to an MIP Inserter/SFN Adapter for the network headend 'in order that two sites (Clermont Carn
and Truskmore) on the north east and northwest coast can be synchronised so
as to avoid interference'.

Wonder if they bothered, given that the signal only travels (IIRC) about 8.5km in the guard interval used?

castle2012

Guys would be great if anyone could let me know are they getting anything from Killkeel .Before I look at options.It seems to have just disappeared after the re-tune . nothing on 40 ,43 and 46 .Just rte driving me mad

Digifriendly

Iderown wrote: »

The post Digifriendly refers to is 205.


Com 7 (on E51) is OK but Com8 (on E60) is very unreliable. Local1 (on E36) and NI Mux (on E33) are fine. I guess that poor response (at the higher frequencies) of the group A aerial is the problem here. I don't have a RF signal strength measuring facility.



Happens that the main televiewer in the house is herself and she has no interest in the programmes carried by either Com7 or Com8. If she expresses interest in the future, I will take graded steps to solve it.

I am not going to bother trying to improve Com 7 reception here in Moira (now intermittent since Wednesday) or Com 8 (gone completely) as these are muxes that are temporary and not permanent. BTW I have a wideband aerial for Divis/Black Mountain (get NIMM) diplexed with wideband aerial for Clermont Carn. My guess is that since both these muxes are now much higher up the RF frequency band that I'm struggling to pull them in. AFAIK Wideband aerials perform much better with the lower numbered RF channel frequencies but this is my take anyway. Also I have satellite so get BBC News HD and Freesports HD via Sky.

Elvis Hammond

Digifriendly wrote: »

... I have a wideband aerial for Divis/Black Mountain (get NIMM) diplexed with wideband aerial for Clermont Carn. My guess is that since both these muxes are now much higher up the RF frequency band that I'm struggling to pull them in.

It's the diplexer that's blocking the higher channels from the Divis aerial.

Elvis Hammond

castle2012 wrote: »

Guys would be great if anyone could let me know are they getting anything from Killkeel .Before I look at options.It seems to have just disappeared after the re-tune . nothing on 40 ,43 and 46 .Just rte driving me mad

Kilkeel definitely looking a non-starter now, with co-channel Camlough, & the previously overlooked (& hugely more powerful) Clermont Carn in adjacent channels for 2 muxes.

Rick_

I had arranged for someone to come out today to sort the aerials but he appears to have forgot about me. Apparently he will be coming out tomorrow instead. Will mention to him about getting two diplexers set up so I can get all 8 Divis MUXs and Clermont.

Mrs cockett

Thanks for the info Elvis and The Cush.

Looks like its a dish for me, I will talk to local installer

castle2012

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

castle2012 wrote: »

Guys would be great if anyone could let me know are they getting anything from Killkeel .Before I look at options.It seems to have just disappeared after the re-tune . nothing on 40 ,43 and 46 .Just rte driving me mad

Kilkeel definitely looking a non-starter now, with co-channel Camlough, & the previously overlooked (& hugely more powerful) Clermont Carn in adjacent channels for 2 muxes.

Ok so I now am back up and running with killkeel.i relocated my Ariel .The only thing not coming in for some strange reason is the HD mix

lgs 4

Hi guys why not use Scottish DTT .I live in Dublin 24 and can get Freeview HD from Scotland ,when its sunny or a frostly night .That's with a old analogue aerial in the attic with no amp.Don't know what band the aerial is . The reception was good back in day on the roof .

castle2012

lgs 4 wrote: »

Hi guys why not use Scottish DTT .I live in Dublin 24 and can get Freeview HD from Scotland ,when its sunny or a frostly night .That's with a old analogue aerial in the attic with no amp.Don't know what band the aerial is . The reception was good back in day on the roof .

Thanks couple of questions.what channel number s are they on ? And what type of Ariel are you using?