Brexit discussion thread III

Aegir,

From your stance I wonder do you consider it fair that when I leave the UK and return to Ireland next year I'll should expect to be able to use the NHS facilities in the UK any time I want? My phone and broadband and tv deals will just transfer over without penalty. My bank will gladly supply me with euros instead of gbp free of any charges. etc etc

If none of the above is true, is that the case that the UK government & industry are making an example of me, or simply the cost of my decision to leave?

MrPudding

Aegir wrote: »

ok, it isn't a gym.

FFS, we've now just got to the point where even you just argue for the sake of arguing.

Seriously? An analogy isn't supposed to be exactly the same as the "thing" because then it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be the "thing". :rolleyes:

Lets's try again with another analogy, this one a little broader...

You are a member of something. As a member of this something, and in consideration of the fees you pay to this something, you receive a certain number of benefits.

You decide to leave the something, and you subsequently do.

Now you are no longer a member of that something. Awesome, you got what you wanted.

Now, if you rock up to the something and try to take advantage of the benefits that you had when you were a member of that something what is going to happen? Well, you aren't a member anymore, so obviously you aren't entitled to those benefits anymore, that would be crazy, if that worked why would anyone be a member and pay the fees.

So you have ended your membership of the something, and are no longer paying the fees. As a result, you are not entitled to the benefits. Is that you being punished or made an example of, or is it simply the natural consequence of cancelling your membership of the something?

MrP

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

No, you are the very one that asks people to back up any claims they make. All I am looking for is fact based discussion. You were given an analogy, which you refuted for the stated reason that the EU is not a club.



Hence I showed why it was a club. So the analogy stands.

Care to comment on it or simply rubbish it for another made up reason?

I was given the analogy of a gym, which is a crap one. No one expects to continue using the facilities for free, do they?

There is no gym in the world that charges based on how much you earn, or refunds more to some members than they pay in. There is no gym in the world that has a ban on you talking to other gyms, or makes you open your front door for other gym members to come and go as they please.

It’s a crap analogy.

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote: »

Seriously? An analogy isn't supposed to be exactly the same as the "thing" because then it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be the "thing". :rolleyes:

Lets's try again with another analogy, this one a little broader...

You are a member of something. As a member of this something, and in consideration of the fees you pay to this something, you receive a certain number of benefits.

You decide to leave the something, and you subsequently do.

Now you are no longer a member of that something. Awesome, you got what you wanted.

Now, if you rock up to the something and try to take advantage of the benefits that you had when you were a member of that something what is going to happen? Well, you aren't a member anymore, so obviously you aren't entitled to those benefits anymore, that would be crazy, if that worked why would anyone be a member and pay the fees.

So you have ended your membership of the something, and are no longer paying the fees. As a result, you are not entitled to the benefits. Is that you being punished or made an example of, or is it simply the natural consequence of cancelling your membership of the something?

MrP

So who is rocking up and expecting something for nothing?

flutered

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things he may be right we aren't a serious country but either is his anymore the empire is gone and the difference between us and them is we've some serious friends and they are all alone.

i guess that some of them bet the farm that roi would exit with them

oscarBravo

Aegir wrote: »

It’s a crap analogy.

Of course it is, because the EU is unique; it's not truly analogous to anything.

The reason people keep using crap analogies to try to explain the EU's actions is that other people keep saying stupid things about the UK being made an example of for leaving.

When people make stupid arguments that appear to be grounded in either a total lack of understanding of the issues, or else the pretence of such a lack of understanding, then other people try to dumb their explanations down to that level, which leaves them open to attack for the flaws in their analogies.

So if you want people to stop using flawed analogies, stop making stupid arguments and start understanding what's going on.

The EU isn't making an example of the UK; the EU is sticking to its principles. The UK seems to believe that the EU should instead be sticking to the UK's principles, but that's because the UK doesn't appear to understand what's going on either.

blanch152

Aegir wrote: »

that's a crap analogy. The EU isn't a club.

What you are suggesting is little more than isolationism.

Here is another analogy.

Ten stamp dealers have a market on Sundays. Each pays €50 for the privilege of selling to the others and to those who visit the market.

One of the stamp dealers decides they don't want to pay the €50 but decides that they want to set up a stand inside the market so that they can still sell to the visitors to the market. The rest of the stamp dealers stop them. How are they being unfair to the guy who won't pay his €50?

J Mysterio

Ohhhh.... Theresa May admitted there could be no open border in Ireland if Britain outside the EU, newly emerged video show - Independent (UK)

J Mysterio

Guardian going hard:

* Tony Blair: Theresa May has no hope of achieving Brexit aims

* All eyes on Theresa May's Brexit speech amid friction over Irish border - Irish prime minister angrily accuses UK counterpart of reneging on her agreement with the EU

It's crunchtime on this. I'd say TM hadn't counted on the current climate/focus/ratcheting of pressure and tension when she had planned to give a speech a few weeks ago. She should have, of course.

Johnson's speech was immediately forgettable and ultimately pointless. As was Davis'. The devil is in the detail - not rambling incoherent speeches - and that's what we have now in the Withdrawal Agreement.

What can Theres possibly say now? I think she is too arrogant to climb down, I think she will double down and further back herself into a corner. The weather is appropriate for what's happening in the UK, it's getting grim.

Leonard Hofstadter

Now they're saying that they're simply not going to enforce the border even if there is no deal. Do they even understand the consequences of doing this??

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-northern-ireland-border-brexit-eu-hard-no-deal-cabinet-irish-a8235096.html

Oh and Davis is saying that the EU can kiss goodbye to the divorce bill. Once again, words fail me. How do they seriously think they can get away with that and the likes of the WTO or any of the countries they are looking to do trade deals with will be happy with that, since it shows they simply can't be trusted?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-brexit-divorce-bill-threat-eu-northern-ireland-remain-brussels-a8234111.html

I'm so glad I was lucky enough to get out of the UK last year, they're getting crazier by the day. I don't think the majority of the electorate really understands it, they really do seem to believe it will all be fine.

Enzokk

J Mysterio wrote: »

Ohhhh.... Theresa May admitted there could be no open border in Ireland if Britain outside the EU, newly emerged video show - Independent (UK)

Good find, seems that Home Secretary Theresa May understood the implications of Brexit. Quite why she is now arguing and looking for the very thing she knows is not possible is baffling.

From your link:

“If we are out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there’d have to be something to recognise that, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

“And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and has access to free movement.”

So she knows the only way to have no borders is by staying in the customs union and the single market. She has said they will leave the customs union and the single market so you would think logically there will be a border imposed.

Nody

captainspeed wrote: »

Now they're saying that they're simply not going to enforce the border even if there is no deal. Do they even understand the consequences of doing this??

I think this was clear over a year ago; no they do not understand it. However once they lose a few billion in VAT/tax revenues (I did a napkin calculation and one truck of smokes is losing about 400k, now add in tankers of fuel reclaimed full VAT in Ireland going north etc. and you can see how lucrative the tax frauds will be at even small amounts and since UK insists on no controls you're basically risk free doing it) the coin might drop. If not the legal suits in WTO will wake them up as they get a couple of hundred millions in fines as every other WTO country can sue them for free money at the first check (including EU!).

Enzokk

captainspeed wrote: »

Now they're saying that they're simply not going to enforce the border even if there is no deal. Do they even understand the consequences of doing this??

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-northern-ireland-border-brexit-eu-hard-no-deal-cabinet-irish-a8235096.html

Oh and Davis is saying that the EU can kiss goodbye to the divorce bill. Once again, words fail me. How do they seriously think they can get away with that and the likes of the WTO or any of the countries they are looking to do trade deals with will be happy with that, since it shows they simply can't be trusted?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-brexit-divorce-bill-threat-eu-northern-ireland-remain-brussels-a8234111.html

I'm so glad I was lucky enough to get out of the UK last year, they're getting crazier by the day. I don't think the majority of the electorate really understands it, they really do seem to believe it will all be fine.

Seems that desperation has set in and this is why you are seeing these pronouncements. Unless she gets rid of the hard Brexiteers this will continue as it is now plainly obvious that they are on a different reality than the rest.

LeinsterDub

Enzokk wrote: »

Good find, seems that Home Secretary Theresa May understood the implications of Brexit. Quite why she is now arguing and looking for the very thing she knows is not possible is baffling.

From your link:



So she knows the only way to have no borders is by staying in the customs union and the single market. She has said they will leave the customs union and the single market so you would think logically there will be a border imposed.

There's your mistake. Applying logic to the situation. To think like a brexiter you need to abandon logic.

PeadarCo

Aegir wrote: »

You may want to check out this post Oscar, it will help with your posting in future.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98517701&postcount=2

I would like you to point out where I have suggested the UK is being punished, or what erroneous points I have made?

https://www.boards.ie/...6&postcount=5044

This post shows you making a erroneous point. You said that a tariff on Irish beef exports would have a serious on the Irish economy. I showed you link showing the small contribution of the entire agri sector (not just the beef/suckler (if you ever talk to farmers sucklers is another word for beef farming) which is only one part of the entire agri sector) to overall Irish GDP.

joeysoap

flutered wrote: »

i guess that some of them bet the farm that roi would exit with them

Farage comes on a lovey dovey crusade to get us to join UK in Brexit.

3 week later JRM threatens Armageddon on us .

Unbelievable how 50% still believe what they are fed, without questioning it.

Conquer and divide worked well for them for centuries. And the UK don’t particularly like Ireland having new friends.

Sand

J Mysterio wrote: »

Ohhhh.... Theresa May admitted there could be no open border in Ireland if Britain outside the EU, newly emerged video show - Independent (UK)

There is a further link to a related story there on Gibraltar. The writer reminds us that the Irish border isnt actually the hardest problem to solve. There is at least a common political and economic interest on the part of the UK and the EU in finding a solution.

But Spain has no interest in seeing anything other than full exclusion for Gibraltar from any deal. Spain has a veto on Gibraltars inclusion in any deal, and a virtual economic blockade of the enclave would suit them fine to force the British to agree to joint sovereignty, perhaps even more.

There is going to be a lot of huffing and whining about unfairness on the part of the British, but the reality is they're getting a very small insight into what its like to negotiate without 27 other states backing them up. And they've yet to truly engage with what the US, China and India will demand from them.

Atlantic Dawn

Nigel Farage on Question Time on BBC tonight, likely Brexit to form main discussion.

Leroy42

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Nigel Farage on Question Time on BBC tonight, likely Brexit to form main discussion.

I saw an interview with him today, can't recall where, but he actually made some decent points.

Of course he talked about the unelected etc but he also said that since EU had made such unpalatable draft it was up to May be tell them her idea.

He also said that the chickens of December from May's agreement were coming home to roost for TM.

He then went off to talk about technology for the border but actually did remark that hurting Ireland was in nobodies interest and wasn't part of the plan.

Nody

Leroy42 wrote: »

I saw an interview with him today, can't recall where, but he actually made some decent points.

Of course he talked about the unelected etc but he also said that since EU had made such unpalatable draft it was up to May be tell them her idea.

He also said that the chickens of December from May's agreement were coming home to roost for TM.

He then went off to talk about technology for the border but actually did remark that hurting Ireland was in nobodies interest and wasn't part of the plan.

It is a scary day when Farage makes more sense and appear to have more knowledge in how things work than the UK government ministers who're suppose to implement Brexit.

trellheim

Question Time 2245 BBC1

From Blackpool

Who's on
Ken Clarke ( Con)
Owen Smith ( Lab shadow sec for NI )
Nigel Farage
Michelle Dewberry ( ex Apprentice winner)
Radzi Chanyanganya ( TV presenter )

should be feisty enough with that lot

J Mysterio

Apprentice winner. *facepalm*

Thargor

Nigel Farage is on Question Time every week, the BBC literally ram him down the publics throats along with blanket coverage in the papers and other channels despite the fact that the British electorate have completely rejected him the umpteen times he's tried to get into parliment. Its ridiculous.

If his message had been bananas are poison instead of Europe is evil nobody in the UK would be eating them, they only have themselves to blame latching on to wacky cartoon characters like this for their foreign policy.

Enzokk

Leroy42 wrote: »

He then went off to talk about technology for the border but actually did remark that hurting Ireland was in nobodies interest and wasn't part of the plan.

Nody wrote: »

It is a scary day when Farage makes more sense and appear to have more knowledge in how things work than the UK government ministers who're suppose to implement Brexit.

And yet this is still not compatible, how do you not plan to hurt Ireland but still leave the EU? Seems he wants some cake and he wants to eat it as well. He did also say that the Norway model was something to aspire to as a Brexit model to follow only to backtrack since then. He will sell a wonderful Brexit future without the EU, only difference will be he may be better at selling it to people than Boris Johnson.

trellheim

chuckling at Question Time

embraer170

Watching Question Time is almost scary.

While it is hard to judge how representative the audience is, the impression I am left with is that people are as naive as ever.

Leroy42

I've said it before, people are simply not listening to anything that doesn't agree with their viewpoint.

They simply wave away reports, experts, anyone that raises an issue.

Another vote won't resolve anything. The more you try to explain the more entranced they become.

Look at today, the US slapped tariffs on steel.

Memnoch

There are repeated mentions on this thread and elsewhere on the subject of the supposed lack of sanity of the hard brexiteers (especially in government). Whereas in fact there is a clear, cold and calculated logic in their position.

They simply want burn the UK down and make a killing in the fire sale that will follow. Remove the EU charter of human rights, remove workers protections, let the economy tank and use that as an excuse to flog off what remains of the UK's assets including the coveted NHS.

The ministers, their friends and financial backers will make a lot of money from the scheme and well if the rest of the UK populace has to be damned to facilitate this enterprise, then so much the better. This has always been the conservative creed. In fact, a population cowed by penury, isolation and fear, and as a result seething with anger that can easily be directed at bully boy Europe or greedy refugees or whoever happens to be the convenient scapegoat of the day, is an outcome that is exactly suited to their purpose of 'Making Britain great again,' or to put it another way, a return to a feudalistic society.

There is nothing at all even a little bit crazy about what they are doing and why they are doing it. It is pure, unadulterated greed. This has always been their modus operandi.

Water John

Looks like more, lets come back together, sh**e from TM tomorrow.

joeysoap

The youngest people on the show were for Brexit.

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

the problem comes when the people making the decisions are doing so for ideological reasons and are happy to sacrifice the odd restaurant or beef farm in the name of "Sovereignty" or "Ever Closer Union".

Except that the EU's stance in these negotiations is not driven by abstract slogans; it's driven by the objective of maintaining the integrity and functionality of the Single Market, which is a real and valuable thing.

You can't suggest an equivalence between the Brexiteers and the EU when it comes to what determines the parameters that each sets in its approach to these issues. Brexiteers are driven by fantasies of what might be and a sort of triumph-of-the-will denial of inconvenient truths; the EU by an appreciation of the reality of what is.

GalwayMark

Memnoch wrote: »

There are repeated mentions on this thread and elsewhere on the subject of the supposed lack of sanity of the hard brexiteers (especially in government). Whereas in fact there is a clear, cold and calculated logic in their position.

They simply want burn the UK down and make a killing in the fire sale that will follow. Remove the EU charter of human rights, remove workers protections, let the economy tank and use that as an excuse to flog off what remains of the UK's assets including the coveted NHS.

The ministers, their friends and financial backers will make a lot of money from the scheme and well if the rest of the UK populace has to be damned to facilitate this enterprise, then so much the better. This has always been the conservative creed. In fact, a population cowed by penury, isolation and fear, and as a result seething with anger that can easily be directed at bully boy Europe or greedy refugees or whoever happens to be the convenient scapegoat of the day, is an outcome that is exactly suited to their purpose of 'Making Britain great again,' or to put it another way, a return to a feudalistic society.

There is nothing at all even a little bit crazy about what they are doing and why they are doing it. It is pure, unadulterated greed. This has always been their modus operandi.

The implications for this country of Britain going rogue is frightening enough without 17th century believing paramilitaries living right next door. Ultimately the English class system is the root of the problem regarding the Irish conflict. Once you remove that English people might leave the grief and self-pity behind and join the modern world.

Peregrinus

embraer170 wrote: »

Watching Question Time is almost scary.

While it is hard to judge how representative the audience is, the impression I am left with is that people are as naive as ever.

It's not representative at all. It's not supposed to be.

What the BBC wants in a question time audience is diversity - people who will hold different views on the questions likely to come before the panel. They are not at all concerned with how popular these views are, or are not, in the wider community.

Anyone can apply for tickets as an audience member. If you apply, you'll be sent a questionnaire, which will ask you about political party identification, how you voted in the Brexit referendum, affiliations with other groups, etc, etc. Then they'll try to put together an audience which includes people who gave different answers, and different permutations of combinations of answers. And occasionally the will solicit applications from members of groups whose views they think are likely to enliven the event.

They favour people who are politically or socially active, on the basis that they are more likely to be willing to contribute their views on air.

All this tends to mean that minority, fringe or "extreme" views get over-represented, relative to the degree of suppor they enjoy in the broader community, but the BBC feels this makes for better television.

Ellian

joeysoap wrote: »

The youngest people on the show were for Brexit.

Well in fairness Blackpool is a very socially disadvantaged area, with a high 60% leave vote so I'd expect even a randomly sampled cross section of the community would not be representative of the country as a whole.

Skedaddle

Peregrinus wrote: »

Except that the EU's stance in these negotiations is not driven by abstract slogans; it's driven by the objective of maintaining the integrity and functionality of the Single Market, which is a real and valuable thing.

You can't suggest an equivalence between the Brexiteers and the EU when it comes to what determines the parameters that each sets in its approach to these issues. Brexiteers are driven by fantasies of what might be and a sort of triumph-of-the-will denial of inconvenient truths; the EU by an appreciation of the reality of what is.

I'd actually argue that part of the problem is that the EU, certainly in terms of how it's presented to the UK, has really not communicated any vision of what it does. The story of the EU in the UK is told by British right wing politicians and the tabloid media.

The result of that has been the EU is generally not understood at all. Most people, including politicians and journalists over there, seem to have no real idea of what it does.

It always feels like the communications from the EU are more like someone trying to explain the intricacies of heat transfer in your central heating system. It may be doing great stuff and keeping you efficiently warm, but it's as exciting as paint drying to all but a narrow % of people who are interested in that aspect of engineering.

So, on the one side you've a group of people selling an exciting, patriotic fantasy of a return to the glorious days of the empire or something like that. They've no facts. There's no logic to back up what they're claiming. Pretty much every economist and expert in trade thinks their proposals are utterly daft. However, they're really good sales people.

On the other side, you have the EU presenting complicated documents and wonderfully presented diagrams showing how everything works. It's thorough. It's technocratic. It's full of facts and figures and logical explanations for everything. However, it's usually poorly communicated and very apolitical and doesn't really see why it should be selling any grand vision.

The result is that the used car salesmen and women of the Brexit campaign win and end up convincing the British public to trade in their advanced, highly connected, trading economy for a clapped out 3-wheeled Reliant Robin and some kind of notions of a glorious future - all based on nothing but clinging to patriotism.

Undoing that is probably impossible at this stage, as a lot of people have completely bought into the glorious Brexit and blame the EU for all problems narrative.

I actually don't think opinions will change until the realities of Brexit start to bring the economy into a crisis and even at that, I suspect many of them will just claim it's as a grand conspiracy theory to manipulate them.
You really are talking about undoing decades of a bizarre misinformation campaign that combined with a national tendency towards jingoism.

It'll be an interesting few months, but I would still say prepare for the consequences of a disorderly and hard Brexit, as that still looks very much to be what we're facing into.

Water John

Skedaddle, I think you could say, the British public have been 'Mogged.'

Skedaddle

Water John wrote: »

Skedaddle, I think you could say, the British public have been 'Mogged.'

Well, you could to a degree.
I think you're really seeing the culmination of a campaign that's been going on for decades. I remember talking about this in university years ago.

It's not even a campaign in some ways, it's more of a 'pile on' where the EU became the butt of a whole lot of jokes and commentary to the point it just became the Brussels whipping boy.
It's very similar psychology to what happens online when you just get a big snowball of haters, jokers, trolls and so on who all pile onto one subject or target.

The British tabloids are quite a unique phenomenon that's only really been surpassed recently by the social media content that's been supporting Trump. In fact, I would argue that the British tabloids were doing 'filter bubbles' and displaying all the characteristics we are suddenly concerned about in terms of online fake news and bullying decades before the social media was even a term.

One of the most interesting things is that in surveys of trust of information sources, the UK is way out of line with the rest of Europe. They really distrust the print media in Britain whereas in most of the rest of Europe it's the most, or one of the most trusted sources.

However, despite all that distrust, it still for some reason holds huge sway.

The problem that I see is that they are so far down the rabbit hole at this stage that I don't really think it's likely to be possible to make logical arguments for EU membership that going to gain any traction. They're just going to have to make their own mistakes. It's just a shame that it's going to probably cause chaos for this island as reality dawns in Britain.

Water John

Don't think it holds big sway over peoples minds in a direct sense. But it has ingrained its ideas by the long, drip feed.

We, in general, also have the problem in that two sides of any argument, are considered to have equal validity. That doesn't apply in many cases and is a false premise.

Sam Russell

Skedaddle wrote: »

It'll be an interesting few months, but I would still say prepare for the consequences of a disorderly and hard Brexit, as that still looks very much to be what we're facing into.

By October, if the WA is not shaping up to some kind of agreement, the I would expect panic to set in with those greatly affected by the doom facing certain elements within British life. Farming (EU payments and threat of low cost imports), horticulture (no pickers), motor assembly (supply chain problems and delays), motor sales (tariffs and exports COO), City of London (loss of passporting), logistics (customs paperwork, inspections and delays); HGV licences (not being valid after disorderly Brexit); general business (uncertainty) etc. etc.

I would expect a collapse of the Tories by then with a GE. Incoming Gov of any hue looking for a delay in Brexit from the EU with even the possibility of cancelling it (or at least an indefinite postponement).

John Major might even look to return to parliamentary politics - he always had the safest of safe seats. It was a powerful speech - better than any when he was in power.

Skedaddle

Maybe, but you will also get a huge and probably very aggressive pushback from the Brexiteers and others who have a parallel ideology. They will fight tooth and nail (and dirty) to ensure they get their way. The remain / cancel Brexit side will argue with logic and facts, which will get them nowhere.

I just think we are viewing this from an Irish bubble that's a hell of a lot more pragmatic about the EU and tends to view England and the UK mostly through the prism of places like London, Manchester, Liverpool and so on that actually have worldviews that are far closer to 21st century Republic of Ireland anyway and didn't vote in favour of Brexit.

I have quite a bit of contact with parts of Yorkshire and the Northeast and no amount of argument by John Major or the business lobby is going to shift them. They either feel they've nothing to lose or, they're so dogmatically wedded to the idea of Brexit that they will simply not back down.

I'm taking a very pessimistic view on this and I don't really think it's likely to have a good outcome. I would see it as only being a rethink after it leads to an economic mess.

Water John

JM was a good PM. Just the media painted him as grey and uninteresting. Edwina Curry didn't agree. He did well with the hand he was played on the Ireland issue.

Major industries, hardening their exit from the UK plans will put the wind up, soon, if this impasse isn't resolved.

The revolt vote in the Lords and Commons, I still feel is the most likely. Esp if Major and Clarke lend their votes to it.

The 60 hard Brexiteers in the Commons and their DUP friends, should be told, go whistle. DUP will never collapse a Tory Govn't. Esp if Corbyn is sitting in the wings.

Hurrache

Water John wrote: »

JM was a good PM. Just the media painted him as grey and uninteresting.

Spitting Image was the main instigator there, his puppet was literally grey.

BonnieSituation

When is the Maybot's speech?

EDIT: Speech is at 1330

flatty

joeysoap wrote: »

The youngest people on the show were for Brexit.

Most folk are busy trying to feed their family and keep a roof over their heads. Most will be too tired to even watch question time. It is not, and never will be, a representative audience.
You even watch, never mind attend a late night programme if you have to be up at six to get the kids ready and/or go to work, and one thing that I have always noticed is that people start work earlier in the UK than at home. People generally either ignore the politicians, or assume they are reasonably trying their best for the country. I think the fact that the country has been hijacked by a vociferous minority has not been noticed.
Countries have throughout history been run by vociferous minorities. Still are. I doubt very much that the majority of Iran want to be run by a fundamentalist theocracy.

gooch2k9

BonnieSituation wrote: »

When is the Maybot's speech?

Sky have it on at half one, I think.

LuckyLloyd

Question Time was quite interesting really and confirms for me where this is headed: the abyss of a hard no deal Brexit. Ken Clarke spoke oceans of sense but you could clearly see faces in the audience glazing over to his substantial points. The worst aspect is that young remainers have clearly had the fight beaten out of them in staunch leave areas and just want the thing done and over with - this is made palatable by dual talk of 'respecting democracy' and 'people voted for independence, details be damned'.

I completely agree that the forces pushing this along see it as an opportunity to achieve a fundamental dismantling of the British economy and big public sector institutions. By the time the people realise that in terms of their own day to day impacts it will be way too late to do anything about it. Britain has a very ugly ten year's of political recrimination and unrest ahead of it.

The takeaway from our (the EU) perspective is to give them nothing. Let it happen, let them crash out and get burned and there may be a possibility that they come back cap in hand within a ten year period. Their political situation is so divided and toxic that there is no ability to achieve any sort of workable agreeable solution. In the Irish context specifically, we'll just have to weather the storm.

Atlantic Dawn

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Sky have it on at half one, I think.

Yes and it's also on BBC2

FrancieBrady

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Question Time was quite interesting really and confirms for me where this is headed: the abyss of a hard no deal Brexit. Ken Clarke spoke oceans of sense but you could clearly see faces in the audience glazing over to his substantial points. The worst aspect is that young remainers have clearly had the fight beaten out of them in staunch leave areas and just want the thing done and over with - this is made palatable by dual talk of 'respecting democracy' and 'people voted for independence, details be damned'.

I completely agree that the forces pushing this along see it as an opportunity to achieve a fundamental dismantling of the British economy and big public sector institutions. By the time the people realise that in terms of their own day to day impacts it will be way too late to do anything about it. Britain has a very ugly ten year's of political recrimination and unrest ahead of it.

The takeaway from our (the EU) perspective is to give them nothing. Let it happen, let them crash out and get burned and there may be a possibility that they come back cap in hand within a ten year period. Their political situation is so divided and toxic that there is no ability to achieve any sort of workable agreeable solution. In the Irish context specifically, we'll just have to weather the storm.

Farage, amazingly, still getting away with trite, jingoistic, bull**** rabble rousing.

First Up

Hurrache wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

JM was a good PM. Just the media painted him as grey and uninteresting.

Spitting Image was the main instigator there, his puppet was literally grey.

Spitting Image would be having some fun these days.

Leroy42

Exactly LuckyLloyd, that is my thinking. No matter what deal is agreed, if it doesn't meet the demands 100% of the Brexiteers they will simply continue to cry and moan and we will be back in a few years time.

I of course am not in any rush to hit a hard brexit, it would not be on the wish list, but it is the situation we are now faced with. The last 40 years have shown us that the UK has always had a problem with the EU, but in the main the pro EU voices won out. That has changed and they want out.

So as bad as it will be for everyone, at least the blame will lie will only one group (although of course they won't see it like that) and we can look at making the EU better for everyone rather than wasting time trying to keep a friend that hates us.